Slippery Slope: Two Down on 7th Ave.

eh, it's the south slope. nothing sticks down there.

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 12:21 PM

who cares

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 12:24 PM

everyone says the coffee sucks.

makes sense to me.

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 12:29 PM

You'd have to be an idiot to open a business without buying the building

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 12:32 PM

those other locations are cash cows. they could pay the rent money if they wanted to

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 12:39 PM

the owners sound like fools...the last quote of the article..."we'd have to sell a cup of coffee to everyone in the borough to afford the rent"

really?? so the rent is 5 million dollars a month?

exaggeration is not helpful in situations like this.

perhaps now they can spend some money on the union street location making it not look so freakin shabby. that place is a bedbug infestation waiting to happen and the awning is faded and shabby.

i say go to ozzie's.

and btw, very few things below 9th are national chains or bank branches. it's silly to even suggest that. i'd say 90% of storefronts below 9th are mom and pop-ish or small nyc based chains like union market.

and the korean deli which sells plants around 12th is one of the best places to buy plants anywhere around!!!

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 12:41 PM

They could start charging a valley fee for stroller parking.

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 12:42 PM

This place always depressed me. How about a nice, sleek modern coffee lounge somewhere on 7th. Not with grandma's couches and babies screaming. How about a gorilla?

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 12:45 PM

The 7th Avenue landlords are the fools. More empty storefronts, just what 7th avenue needs.

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 12:50 PM

"You'd have to be an idiot to open a business without buying the building"

Speaking of idiots.

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 12:54 PM

I agree...there are a lot of foolish landlords on 7th. There was a thread some time ago on the Park Slope message boards, where one of the shadier landlord, Nicholas Kotsonis chimed in to say that because of some fishy tax thing, landlords can actually make MORE money by keeping the storefronts vacant than they can by renting them out.

Someone needs to fix that loophole, and these problems would not continue.

There are SO many businesses (interesting ones, at that) who would love to set up shop on 7th, but can not afford the rents.

And the rents are not in line with the amount of foot traffic, so it's a real problem. This is a nice part of Broolyn, but it ain't Manhattan. You can't charge Broadway rents on 7th Ave in the Slope.

Lots of these old time landlords in Park Slope like Berman, Kotsonis, etc own a ton of property still, so hopefully as the younger generation takes over, we will see more and more turnover.

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 12:59 PM

12:50 - The landlords are not fools! Back in 2001 when the tea lounge signed the lease the market rate for that store was around $35 per sq foot. Now its over $75 per sq foot (closer to $100/sq foot in north slope). I am sure the store will not stay vacant for too long.
I own a building in 5th ave north slope. leased out the store at $15/sq foot back in 1997. The lease is almost up and corcoran real estate priced the store at $75/sq foot.
If you get $1000 per month in rent and someone offers you $5000 when the lease is up...im sure you will not hasitate to take it.

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 1:02 PM

If you think the rent on 7th avenue is comparable to the rent on broadway I would suggest you are not too knowledgable about commercial rents in the city, perhaps you should stick to something you know about?

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 1:04 PM

That's fine and good, 1:02, but then can you please explain to us why there are about 20 vacant storefronts on 7th between flatbush and 15th street, including some which have been vacant for months, if not years??

The Red Hot place across from the Tea Lounge has now been vacant for months and I see zero action on the place.

2nd Street cafe and Park Slope books...vacant after 6 months of being for rent. And those are both PRIME locations. Even moreso than here.

So your story doesn't really fly. Corcoran can price the store at whatever they want. It doesn't mean people are biting.

In fact, looks like quite the opposite. All these vacancies add a really depressing air to 7th Avenue. It's a real shame, given the affluence of the surrounding streets...

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 1:11 PM

but is anyone offering 5k a month?

or are you just kicking someone out and waiting?

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 1:12 PM

1:04, Actually the rents on 7th Avenue are quite comparable to the rents on parts of Broadway. Namely the part where I work in the low 110's.

Broadway is a long Street, you realize? And it was more said in jest...

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 1:14 PM

Wow you are a brilliant comedian I had not realized you were using humor. My bad.

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 1:18 PM

7th Ave landlords need to wise up. At this point they need to price lower than 5th to try to attract some tenants.

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 1:18 PM

Aren't there about twenty coffee shops on 7th avenue? Does it make one iota difference if there are 19? Who cares at all?

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 1:19 PM

1:18 yeah 7th avenue landlords are some stupid businessmen, stupid like a fox

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 1:20 PM

So you meant park slope rents are comparable to morningside heights? What is your point?

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 1:23 PM

the amount of vacant storefronts on 7th is appalling. really disgraceful, considering how many people are interested in opening a small business...

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 1:23 PM

1:11 - I can't speak for the other landlords. The only way I can explain why they would rather leave a place vacant is if they got a large tax advantage. If they own lots of property they can say that they are loosing potential market rent for the store and write off the loss.
I just own one building and could not afford to keep it vacant for long. I would try my best to get a new contract signed before the lease would expire or leave the current tenant with a below-market rent (short lease).
I agree with you that the landlords that let their properties sit vacant are causing more harm to the area then good.
As far as corcoran saying I can get $75/sq foot goes...I am not holding my breath. I am willing to take alot less then that if the new buisness will add a unique and desirable addition to the area. But I will certainly, under no condition, rent the place again for $15/sq foot!! Maintaining a building is a lot more expensive now then it was in 1997!!!

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 1:24 PM

Please name the 20 coffee shops on 7th. I can think of three, and one of them, Tea Lounge, is closing. Leaving two.

Does it matter? Of course it does. Access to amenities is a main driver of real estate prices. Or so I hear.

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 1:25 PM

I agree 1:18! Short-sighted landlords are ruining NYC. Halcyon closed on Smith because the landlord doubled the rent, now there is some crappy chain burrito-ville in the spot. When we complain about the loss of culture in NYC nabes look to the greedy landlords. I'm sure their costs didn't double in 5 years, they are just trying to wring as much $$ as possible out of the space. Nothing wrong with capitalism, but there is something wrong with cutting off your nose (doubling the rent on viable small businesses) to spite your face (sitting on a vacant building waiting for some deep-pocketed retailer like Duane Reade or Starbucks to rescue you from yourself) especially in this crappy economy.

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 1:26 PM

Two coffee shops on seventh ave? You're kidding right? There's at least twenty.

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 1:28 PM

this corner will sit vacant for a year.

mark my words.

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 1:28 PM

Halcyon served undrinkable coffee in an insufferably pretentious atmosphere good riddance

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 1:31 PM

Name the 20 coffeshops.

Or name at least three beside Tea Lounge.

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 1:31 PM

Starbucks connecticut muffin ozzies

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 1:36 PM

parco
cocoa bar
naidre's
cafe 11 (oops, closed)
chocolate girl (soon to serve coffee)
cousin johns bakery
starbucks

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 1:42 PM

Before anyone blames the landlord, ask yourself why the owner of the tea lounge refused to reveal the dollar figure!

I am certainly not crying for the owner of the tea lounge! he has other locations and is a millioner a couple of times over.

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 1:46 PM

What's parco?

I have a store near 7th Ave. that I rented. My efforts went through 3 different RE brokers. I was quite surprised how few potential clients each brought in. I also showed the place some myself via Craig's lost and thought those potential tenants seemed quite unseasoned and undercapitalized. I was also surprised that noone tried to bargain with me for price and noone seemed to be thinking about much in the way of renovations.

Other landlords, what's your take on the best realtors to use? Any suggestions for tie ins to national accounts?

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 1:53 PM

no bk native

the prices will never come down in park slope because it is a kid friendly utopia

everyone has 20k a month to pay a mortgage silly goose

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 2:02 PM

1:53 I have a store on 5th. I made the mistake of giving a very long lease. It will expire next year and I don't have any idea what to expect once its expired. The current tenant is doing well out of the location and is very interested in re-newing the lease, but made it very clear that he can't afford the current market rate.
I don't think that craigslist would be the best place to advertise the location. Its great for apartments, but I don't believe many potential commercial renters look there. As expensive as it is, I think the best way is to place an ad in NY times.
How long did it take you to rent the place? Did you start looking before the first tenant finished there lease?

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 2:03 PM

2:04 you're kidding right? A commercial lease is often for ten years. You think the landlord shouldn't raise the rent after ten years??

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 2:08 PM

2:08, he/she didnt suggest the landlord should not raise the rent at all.

the landlord should have made a more reasonable rent increase. Would you rather keep a long-standing tenant or risk losing income for several months?

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 2:14 PM

To 2:03 pm. I bought the store from the previous landlord/occupant so my current tenant is the first. I thought aoubt the NY times but have you ever tried to do their commercial search. Not particularly user friendly... It took us about 1 year to rent out the space, including the lease negotiation period.

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 2:16 PM

Of course the landlord should raise the rent. But a sensible one is not going to raise it so much as to lose a tenant while more and more nearby storefronts sit empty.

The empty Red Hot Szechuan and Tea Lounge will stand as twin sentinels on the South Slope side of 7th Avenue: Abandon all hope ye who set up shop here.

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 2:18 PM

2:18 a bit melodramatic?

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 2:23 PM

People are very very strange - why all the LL bashing???

When the owners of Tea Lounge (or any other retail establishment) start charging significantly below market prices for their products, then maybe the LLs would be up for attack.

But when I go into Tea Lounge, it seems they are charging on the high end for their coffee - yet few jump up and down and call the owner names - even though for years he has had the advantage of below market rent (and above market coffee prices)

Are you people too thick headed to see this?????

And BTW - there is NO tax advantage to keeping a retail store vacant, but since retail tenants generally want long-term leases (rightfully b/c who wants to invest tens of thousands of $ into a business that could be evicted in 2yrs) - it can sometimes make sense to hold a store vacant until a real good tenant comes along - as opposed to renting it at a discount and having to live with that discount for a decade or more.

That being said - no reason they couldnt lower rents for the short-term and then have built in escalations if the retail business is thriving.

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 2:25 PM

2:14 - if the new rent is double (or 50% or even 25% more) than the old rent - it doesnt take all that long to make up for the lost rent due to vacancy.

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 2:28 PM

Tea Lounge clearly has an inferior business model if they depend on below market rents to turn a profit. Should the landlord subsidize a badly run business?

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 2:29 PM

I'm a business analyst and have been living in this area for almost 5 years. I've seen stores come and go on this stretch. Along with Greenjeans, Rare Device recently closed, as did Nest. The Nest space wasn't on the market for to long (rented to Goldy + Mac) so I don't think it will take too long for the other storefronts to rent (unless the landlord of Tea Lounge has delusions of grandeur about how much they can get for the space).

Aside from the rent increase example of Tea Lounge, it really boils down to the fact that many of these stores sold things that people just didn't want to buy, and their inventory didn't change often enough. And while I admire what Greenjeans was about, the selection was too small, and just plain too expensive. Rare Device was too similar to Nest, and was too small of a location to make their mark.

Many of the restaurants there do pretty well, and you can see that the Union Market is thriving. I've even seen the little beer bar packed many nights. It's tough to open a small business, so kudos to those that tried, and congrats to those who manage to succeed.

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 2:31 PM

The Tea Lounge owner's decision to close has nothing to do with the rent - but it is easier to try to maintain 'street cred' in liberal PS if you blame it on the evil, greedy Landlord.

I dont know how much his rent is or was - but if all else failed a small price increase would easily cover almost any rent increase - think about it if they sold 300 items a day (coffee, pasteries, cookies, sandwiches, etc) - which is really not a very good business and you raised the price by an average of a quarter - you could cover $2250 worth of rent increase monthly.

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 2:42 PM

"The Tea Lounge owner's decision to close has nothing to do with the rent"

And you know this how?

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 2:56 PM

Tea Lounge is one of several dozen similar similar establishments with an overpriced poor quality product that cannot even pay prevailing market rents, who cares?

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 2:59 PM

2:56- Math

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 3:15 PM

2:42/3:15 - You don't know the rent, so you can't do the math.

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 3:41 PM

first off the tea lounge is a pretty dirty place,

I know the landlord is an old time local and i bet she didn't ask an outrageous number. its just that the tea lounge has been paying way below market rent. they also picked up the shop for peanuts as another owner built it(short lived berries and beans) but knew nothing about coffee and sold the store and lease just to get out. They made plenty over charging for tea and coffee but you want to hate the landlord for renting it out for market.

how many of you are renting your apartments way below market. while i guess its some its not hte majority. and how many will list their house for below market price. after all why should they be greedy if they bought in for 1996 and get full market. greedy homeowners.

for the record i rent on 7th avenue pay 90 dollars a sq foot in a prime spot and do fine. you know why? people want to shop in my store. the stores that are closing offer nothing people want or are overpriced.

how many small stores have closed on 5th ave or smith street , or columbia or montague the list goes on.

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 4:08 PM

A double rent would be hard for even starbucks. You folks are ridiculous to blame them for wanting to leave. If they stay you'll complain about the over priced coffee.

Gorilla coffee is nasty burned tasting.

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 4:11 PM

Typical no nothing post and no nothing posters. Brownstoner laments the death of the mom and pop store. This is a mom and pop store that can't do business paying market rate rent. They should go out of business.

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 4:12 PM

in the article, the owners of tea lounge specifically say they are leaving because of the rent.

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 4:33 PM

4:08 - What is your store?

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 4:38 PM

The owners of the business obviously do not know how to run their own business if they cannot pay market rate rents so why would you believe anything they say has any connection to reality

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 4:39 PM

I think we need more stores to open up selling overpriced hot beverages, what a brilliant business plan

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 4:43 PM

4:33 - The owner lied!

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 5:01 PM

Red Hot and Tea Lounge were both heavily patronized businesses. Does it seem remotely possible that they both failed? If those two busy stores closed (leaving gaping retail holes) it seems highly likely that the rent was raised substantially. When heavily patronized businesses leave, it's not a good sign. Greedy landlords, case closed. Now there's no good chinese food closer than Garfield. So much for "neighborhood"

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 5:02 PM

More ESP on exhibit at 5:01.

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 5:03 PM

4:08 can't answer that here. too many haters on this website. thats not saying were not doing a good job, but you can have 10,000 people like you and 20 haters and those 20 haters will do anything to destroy you on the web.

for the record i would never be able to pay the rent i pay if i was opening new. but as a store owner whats not to like on 7th avenue other then the rent?

every person who moves in makes more money then the person they replace. there is a ton of new development bringing more people in who also make lots of money. park slope has become a destination place. people who are moving from manhattan want a manhattan experience shopping in brooklyn. those who give it to them without offending their long time regulars will be fine.

those who offer service or show they care will also be fine.

please note im not saying this as if the rent is a bargain its not. but where in nyc is it?

as for the double rent comment it means nothing. if the rent was 2500 dollars there and now its 5 thousand its a bargain and the greedy landlord is actually renting below market. if a business cant swallow a 30 thousand dollar a year increase how profitable could have it been? if they were making 200k a year they wouldn't stay open to make 170k. my guess the place was dying as that hadnt invested a penny to improve the place or they wanted out as it wasnt making enough already to justify staying open.

adam

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 5:14 PM

"A double rent would be hard for even starbucks. You folks are ridiculous to blame them for wanting to leave. If they stay you'll complain about the over priced coffee.
Gorilla coffee is nasty burned tasting."

Thank you, owner of Tea Lounge.

My ESP at work! How I know it's the Tea Lounge: nobody complains about Gorilla except bitter jealous owners of the other crap cofee places in Park Slope.

Tea Lounge coffee is bad. Ozzie's coffee is terrible. Both are FILTHY. With totally outdated decor.

Gorilla coffee is awesome, the place is clean, and the decor is modern and cool. Not all slimy sofas like Tea Lounge or granny country kitchen gross like Ozzie's.

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 5:38 PM

i agree partially, 5:38. i like ozzie's. and they really seem to be keeping the one on 7th cleaner.

but i will say that i've NEVER heard anyone say anything negative about gorilla.

i hear only praise, so i agree that the complainer might indeed be a tea lounge employee or owner...

gorilla could, if they got their act together, do some major expansion and do quite well i believe. they have a good product and a good business model.

only been once (it's a little far for me for a cup of coffee...i prefer to stay within 5 blocks for that) but it was a great cup.

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 6:15 PM

I love Gorilla's design sense, but I'm not a fan of the actual coffee.

For the record, I'm not one of the "bitter jealous owners of the other crap cofee places in Park Slope."

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 6:18 PM

while I was in college in Raleigh, NC a Starbucks across from campus went out of business and a hookah bar went in.

best

switch

ever

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 9:16 PM

if a hookah bar opened in park slope, i'd go every week...

how about a nice, slick gay bar on 7th....

anyone, anyone...

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 10:26 PM

i used to love tea lounge when i first moved here 5 years ago - but in the past 2 years something changed there. all the friendly baristas left and were replaced by young non-chalant brats who clearly weren't "into" keeping with health codee and the place just became gross
as far as good or great coffee goes. i would rate parco,windsor bagel on on ppw, blue sky muffin, dunkin donuts and CT muffin as some of the best coffee in town - i hated ozzies and i tried gorilla once but it's toooo bitter and burnt-tasting

what about a great cupcake place?

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 10:26 PM

magnolia cupcake would do well. it would be a destination type place...

they just opened one on the upper west side and it's gorgeous.

and packed.

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 10:55 PM

All the talk about chains is a total overreaction. I just walked down 7th the other day all the way from Flatbush to 15th or so. I took note of the chain stores and there were very few. If I had to guess, I'd say that at least 80% of the businesses are not chains.

I see no cause for alarm. Park Slope's two retail strips are incredibly diverse and packed with interesting shops and restaurants. The storefronts are mostly small and do not lend themselves well to large national retail chains. There are a few, but it really doesn't seem like too much to worry about.

Ever been to Broadway on the Upper West Side?

It looks like anytown USA. I think a lot of people still want to live there, though...

Just sayin...All of Manhattan has turned into a chain, but I hear very few people asking why they live there.

People move to Park Slope for the architecture, the community spiriti, the park and the great schools and close proximity to Manhattan.

They do not move here for Tea Lounge and Red Hot (which, quite frankly I never enjoyed either).

Posted by: guest at May 24, 2008 10:38 AM

> if a hookah bar opened in park slope, i'd go every week...

Zilli on 5th Avenue has hookahs:

- http://www.zillibarlounge.com/

"Zilli provides its guests with a cozy and comfortable lounge area, as well as a beautiful patio, where you can enjoy the many flavors of Hookah.

Come in and enjoy the wide variety of Turkish Pides ("pizzas"), Sis Kebabs, Pastries, Desserts, Fine Coffees and Teas, as well as our Full Liquor Bar."

Posted by: guest at May 24, 2008 11:48 AM

that place on 5th isn't great. i've tried it.

nothing like the good hookah places in the east village, in my opinion...

thanks though.

Posted by: guest at May 24, 2008 1:52 PM

Agreed, Zilli isn't great. The food isn't good. They really struggled a long time first with a horrible name (remember "Comfort Zone"?) and things like charging for each refill of coffee for sit-down diners who did order food. They couldn't figure out if they were Starbucks or a restaurant. Nobody went there. The only thing that saved them from disaster other than finally changing the name, was getting a liquor license.

Posted by: guest at May 24, 2008 7:52 PM

Rare Device closed last week, a couple of doors down from Greenjeans. I used to sell my work there. The reason had more to do with the owner struggling to keep a shop open on each coast. But the lack of foot traffic could have been a factor too.

Posted by: guest at May 25, 2008 11:14 AM

Maybe a location of babycakes? Their stuff is equally as good as Magnolia and you KNOW PS parents would go mad for allergen-free baked goods.

IMHO, the 7th ave location of Tea Lounge was way better than the union st one, if only for the fact that there were fewer babies there. But Gorrilla still makes better coffee. And Ozzie's charges for internet, which is lame.

Posted by: guest at May 26, 2008 10:40 AM

I love all the people commenting on how 5k a month is such a good deal and how the retailers should be so grateful. How would any of you, after working seven days a week for ten years, have your income reduced by half? 5k! funny till YOU are writing the check! and the rent is only one small aspect of the business. there's labor and taxes and oh boy if you can afford health insurance. people on this site are so goddamn judgmental. I say kudos to all the retailers out there with a vision and a dream. So all you judgemental fatties (and you know who you are)are about to have your judgemental dreams come true...a Dunkin Doughnuts on every corner.

Posted by: guest at May 26, 2008 11:32 PM

Zilli is great. I love that place. It's beautiful, foods are good, and people are always nice.

As for Tea Lounge I think all the people who goes there is now kids and moms and that drove other people away. They stay long with a cup of tea, and they cannot sustain themselves that way.

Posted by: guest at May 27, 2008 3:04 PM

I'm interested in opening a shop in Park Slope and recently looked at a 275 sq. foot space on 7th Avenue (with no storage space mind you) Just to give you an idea of the rent - they are asking $2,500 for the space. You figure that each year the rent will increase by at least 5%, and on top of that you have to pay a broker 10-12% of the year's rent. After all these fees, there really is very little room to make a profit. Most landlords in Park Slope will not even sign a lease beyond 3 years, so essentially after 3 years they can double the rent and all your hard work goes out the window when you are forced to leave.

Posted by: guest at May 28, 2008 8:45 PM