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May 19, 2008

House of the Day: 168 Midwood Street

This three-story limestone house at 168 Midwood Street in Prospect Lefferts Gardens is chock full of old-school details and has been recently renovated to bring the kitchen and baths up to date. It's got a nice feel to it, which is good because the owner (who's selling it herself) is trying to sell it for almost double what she paid in 2004. The asking price now is $1,350,000, versus $730,000 four years ago. Of course, prices in the nabe have gone up dramatically in that time and she put some dough into the reno. There was an open house yesterday. Did anyone stop by?
168 Midwood Street [FSBO] GMAP P*Shark

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Comments

Maybe she could hire a photographer for her $1.35M.
Or take pictures in the right season so the listing doesn't look as bad as it does.

Posted by: guest at May 19, 2008 1:28 PM

Place is small and doesn't look like it's worth over $1MM. These fringe areas are going to be hit hardest in pull-back.

Posted by: guest at May 19, 2008 1:37 PM

The place is about 3000 square feet. I remember when she bought it. It needed a complete renovation I'm sure she spent over 300,000 on the renovation, if not 400,000. It has new everything.

Posted by: guest at May 19, 2008 1:46 PM

The problem with NYC real estate is that someone can put "up and coming" and $1.35 million in the same advertisement. In no other city in the US does someone pay that much for "up and coming", I don't care how nice the house is.

People used to buy in up and coming areas because it was affordable. Houses like this are not affordable to middle class families who "only" have an income of $125,000 - $150,000. They might as well buy in Maplewood or Montclair, NJ where you can still get a house for well under a million, and a decent public school system, all the way up to high school. We were fortunate to buy a brownstone in a great neighborhood in Brooklyn before the crazy run-up in prices. But if I were a young family now, I'd spend $500,000 to buy in an "up and coming" area of Queens instead of 3 times that for a neighborhood in Brooklyn that seemingly has already priced out middle class families.

Posted by: guest at May 19, 2008 1:50 PM

The real estate market has boomed big time since 2004 and it shows no sign of retreat in brownstone Brooklyn, so why shouldn't the owner sell for twice what she bought it for?
It looks nice and is cheaper than a three bedroom walk-up in Park Slope.
Plus it has the added advantage of not being in Park Slope.

Posted by: guest at May 19, 2008 1:51 PM

She really needs to get a friend with some basic understanding of photography.

Posted by: guest at May 19, 2008 1:53 PM

If the owner painted the windows all black and put some red flowers on the window sills the place would look awesome. It just needs some jewelry. I've seen other houses in the area that have done what I describe, and they look amazing.

Posted by: guest at May 19, 2008 1:57 PM

The windows should match the cornice, all dowagers need to have their accessories match. Otherwise they are not well-dressed.

Posted by: guest at May 19, 2008 2:00 PM

I know the block and love the houses on it. (love the ones west of Bedford even more, but that's not the point - those have asking prices of $1.5MM usually).
Having said that, the house feels rather austere in terms of color, surfaces, details and definitely - d e f i n i t e l y - the mismatched chairs around the parlor floor dining table are not a pretty picture. I mean - not a picture that would sell.

Posted by: guest at May 19, 2008 2:02 PM

The special thing about many of the houses on this block, including this one, is that they have dutch staircases. This makes the entire parlor floor seem much wider than 20 feet. These houses are great for entertaining.

Posted by: guest at May 19, 2008 2:04 PM

I love PLG and this place is definitely nice.
But I think the price is too high.
Why would you buy this, when there are 4 other places on the same block that have not sold for less?
It seems like the market is especially harsh on the smaller 2 and 3 story houses in the nabe.
73 Rutland is the same price and it's a lot bigger. Check out 82 Rutland too. It's just on the market.
Btw, I'm sure she did some work, but I doubt if she spent $300K. More like $100-150K.

Posted by: guest at May 19, 2008 2:06 PM

Looks like quite a bit of money went into this reno based on the layout of bathroom and kitchen.

How much she paid isn't as relevant as how much its worth. Don't know if its worth this price but it seems like a nice house. Its sad to say but $1.3M is reasonable for a fringe area...if this house were in a more prime spot then it would be worth a lot more.

Posted by: Mrs. Limestone at May 19, 2008 2:06 PM

While the owner did a good job of de-cluttering for the most part, there are still photos were your first thought is:
Is that red chair a child's booster seat?
Hey is that a sheep on that pillow?
Guess it is a sheep, 'cuz that looks like a monkey on that other pillow.

I can sort of understand having the winter exterior photos, when the leaves are on the tree, it will block much of the exterior, but still would include both the winter and spring exterior shot in the photos.

Posted by: guest at May 19, 2008 2:25 PM

can we as a community come together and stop using the word 'nabe'? Please?

Posted by: guest at May 19, 2008 2:25 PM

2:04 what's a dutch staircase?

Posted by: Brooklynnative at May 19, 2008 2:41 PM

Hopefully nothing like a Cleveland Steamer!

Posted by: Biff Champion at May 19, 2008 2:44 PM

What are the elementary school options in PLG?

Posted by: guest at May 19, 2008 2:49 PM

I'll bet my left nut that the seller ends up dropping the price to 1 million and hiring a broker, or at a minimum offering some broker compensation.

This sellers is making two huge mistakes:

1) House is overpriced by at least 25%

2) Reducing pool of potential buyers by not offering compensation to brokers.

Posted by: guest at May 19, 2008 2:59 PM

No way! It comes with a Christmas Tree factory in the rear yard!

SOLD!

Posted by: guest at May 19, 2008 3:11 PM

Love the block and the house seems ok but house is overpriced by @ 275K.

Posted by: guest at May 19, 2008 3:15 PM

Hey does that single family occupancy covenant apply here too? Ditto for Rutland road?

Posted by: guest at May 19, 2008 3:17 PM

If I were you I would not be betting my nuts on price drop to 1M. Even in this market, gone are the days that Midwood Street in LM will go for less than 1M+.

Posted by: guest at May 19, 2008 3:21 PM

1-family . . . rule applies to almost all houses on Maple, Midwood and Rutland out to Rogers Ave.
Anybody in the neighborhood have a theory as to why the houses on Midwood don't seem to be moving this spring?

Posted by: guest at May 19, 2008 3:25 PM

"What are the elementary school options in PLG?"

For public I would look slightly south of PLG at the mini schools in PS 139 (on Argyle Rd.) or PS 217 even further south. The elementary schools in PLG proper are not so hot.

Posted by: guest at May 19, 2008 3:48 PM

The reality is that most of the buyers that would be willing to live in that neighborhood can't get the mortgage. It is a rare person that is selling in the Upper East and deciding that they feel at home in PLG. I've talked to some of the potential buyers -- those who came to open houses, but decided not to buy after walking around for a while. Sad to say, but true. (Please don't race-bait, it is more about the amenities in the community than anything else.) Because the buyer pool is now so limited becuase of the harsh mortgage restrictions, this property will have to be significantly reduced.

Posted by: guest at May 19, 2008 3:53 PM

the red chair at the dining room table is a Stokke high chair and every single person with kids and this budget -- meaning everyone interested in this house -- would know that. Who are you people? And why are you all so damn dumb?

Posted by: guest at May 19, 2008 3:55 PM

I, in particular, am dumb because I am not in the habit of bringing up children.

Why are you so smart? Are you - gasp - supermommie from the Slope?

Posted by: guest at May 19, 2008 4:09 PM

There is very little in the way of amenities in this neighborhood. No serious sit down restaurants, inferior grocery stores, forget bars, no public schools worth mentioning.

You got a house, the subway, and the park.

3:53 is right. This is priced for a cash purchaser, and they are going to be hard pressed to find a working stiff with a family willing to finance a $1MM mortgage.

Posted by: Polemicist at May 19, 2008 4:31 PM

Borrowing money is so 2006, Polemicist.
Nowadays one merely has to sell one's two-bedroom apartment in the Upper West Side and bingo! deal done.
Life is so easy when you understand the facts from Brownstoner.

Posted by: guest at May 19, 2008 4:48 PM

The people making snippy comments about the owner's furniture really need to get a life. Yes first impressions count, but the photos demonstrate that this house shows well. It's clean and uncluttered -- which is already an improvement on most properties on the market. Any serious buyer will be looking at the layout, the finishes, the features, the mechanical systems, the building envelope. Who's give a S*** about the stuff in it? Did anybody ask you to BUY the high chair?

Posted by: guest at May 19, 2008 5:15 PM

"No serious sit down restaurants, inferior grocery stores, forget bars, no public schools worth mentioning."

Enduro on Lincoln is a serious sit down restaurant and a bar and there may be another restaurant on the way on Lincoln. There is also Lime (bar) and a couple of other halfway decent neighborhood dive bars. You're correct about the lack of decent grocery stores and in neighborhood public schools.

Posted by: guest at May 19, 2008 5:18 PM

This house is much larger than the other houses for sale on the block. The price is typical for three story houses in Lefferts Manor. Of course this house is not worth 1mil. The two story houses sell for almost that. Every house one the block that's for sale needs work accept this one and one up the street that has stopped having open houses (so probably has a buyer).

Of course this house will get a mortgage. The problem with getting mortgages in this climate has to do with credit scores. Three story houses in Lefferts Manor are rare to come to market, but they always sell (if they need no renovation) for between 1.2-1.3.

Severval people who own houses on the block came directly from Manhattan, to the theory that a buyer wouldn't come from there is wrong.

A dutch staircase is a staircase that turns back against itself on the parlor floor. They are very pretty, and they open up the space on the floor.

Posted by: guest at May 19, 2008 5:24 PM

sorry, I meant "except this one"

Posted by: guest at May 19, 2008 5:26 PM

Dear Owner,

The real problem with the photos is that most of them appear to have been taken at night, making the house look incredibly dark and dingy. If you look at the good photos on the good brokers' sites, you'll see that most of them show rooms with lots of natural light streaming in.

You should also update the exterior photo with one that is more current. Showing a photo with snow on the ground just makes it look like the house has been on the market for a long time without selling, whether that's true or not.

Sincerely,

A Blog Reader Overly Obsessed With The Details of Marketing Brooklyn Real Estate

Posted by: Park Sloper at May 19, 2008 5:27 PM

Park sloper,
You are right. I know this house, and the kitchen windows are south facing. The light streaming in during the day must be glorious.

Posted by: guest at May 19, 2008 5:33 PM

I'm not a supermommy -- or the previous poster about this -- but c'mon, sniping about furnishings when you don't even know high-end designer pieces when you are shown a picture of it is pathetic.

The pictures aren't great, but this house looks clean and presentable. You all need to go back to the cave you live in

Posted by: guest at May 19, 2008 5:38 PM

I am new to PLG and having looked around a bit before taking the plunge I can say that even though this house "has everything new" it's still only 3 stories and from what I can tell there are four story houses in PLG in LM that are priced only a hair above this $1.35 asking price. My view is that anyone in that price range will settle for a bigger house even if there's a little work to be done.

As for restaurants and bars, they'll come to PLG eventually. What's there already is the real draw: Prospect Park, Botanic Garden, express subways, and it's just a skip to Prospect Heights and Park Slope for other amenities. If you have the financial wherewithal to buy a house for $1.3M, you can afford the five minute cab ride to another, dare I say it, "nabe." Or if you feel like gambling with your life, take the dollar van down Flatbush.

Posted by: jurist at May 19, 2008 5:41 PM

5.38 - you seem to have fallen into the trap of deeming something is good because someone else has labelled it as such. poor you.

Posted by: guest at May 19, 2008 5:59 PM

I've never encountered the term "Dutch Staircase" so thanks to 2:04 and 5:24 for using it and defining the term.

My own house is on this block and was built the previous year (1899--#168 was built in 1900--not 1905 as stated in the FSBO ad) by the same builder (W.A.A. Brown), so my own Dutch staircase should be virtually identical. Here's a photo of it taken by Dan Canole, of the "Planet PLG" blog, when my house was last on tour in 2006:

http://www.planetplg.com/images/tour/DSC_0081.jpg

If 168 Midwood has had it's woodwork stripped and refinished it is probably lighter than mine. I love dark woodwork, but I know it isn't to everyone's taste.

Posted by: Bob Marvin at May 19, 2008 6:31 PM

FGLiving here,
I like these houses because they can be much less worn out and "fragile" than the houses built in the 1850's. These turn-of-the-last-century houses tend to have level floors and are well built.

Things changed A LOT in the US from the time our house was built (pre-Civil War) to the time this house was built. The materials later in the 1800's seem to me to be more likely to be holding up these days.

I don't know. Correct me if I'm wrong. But these limestone houses seem to be holding up very well. The brownstone and soft brick of the older houses can be a mess to deal with.

Posted by: guest at May 19, 2008 6:39 PM

I have a Stokke. It is good. Sorry.

("Labelled?" Really?)

Posted by: guest at May 19, 2008 6:39 PM

anyone buying a 4 story house "just a hair above" the asking price for this is buying a house that needs at least 200k put into it. Three story one family houses are pretty big; four story single family houses are too big for many families.

Posted by: guest at May 19, 2008 6:46 PM

I think the term "dutch staircase' often refers to a staircase that has a turn at the bottom, but it is also used to describe the steep narrow stairs in dutch houses. This stair does have the turn at the bottom, but is not narrow. Can anyone come up with another term for this type of staircase?

Posted by: guest at May 19, 2008 6:53 PM

6:46pm, You know not what you speak. A $200K renovation means the house was nearly a wreck. Obviously, one can spend into the stratosphere for renovations, $60 per square foot tile, Viking stoves, etc. But putting those subjective expenses aside, I haven't seen any LM house recently on the market in the $1.4M range that need $200K in work. (Yes, in CH and FG you will see houses that are falling down and the ask is still near $2M, but not in LM.) The LM houses are generally in good shape because it's always been a middle class community. Even if you have to re-wire the whole house you are "only" looking at $50K and that's on the high side. Anyway, the houses that are most recently on the market in LM have already undergone electrical upgrades and are mostly in need of cosmetic work.

We have a four story house and it's definitely big and spacious, but I don't think it's "too big for many families." If money was not an issue, I think most families in NYC, especially those with kids, would always opt for more space. If you have it, you use it.

Posted by: jurist at May 19, 2008 7:05 PM

Jurist, I just finished the renovation of a house, and I can assure you that any house needing new plumbing, windows, kitchen, and baths (which is any house that needs renovation) will eat up 200,000 before you can blink.

And furthermore, I know of NO families for whom "money is not an issue".

Posted by: guest at May 19, 2008 7:37 PM

new wiring-50k
new plumbing -50k
new kitchen- 40k
new bath-20k x2=40k
painting- 10k
floor sanding-5k
new fixtures-?
new windows in landmarked block-15k

as I said, 200k gone before yopu can blink.

Posted by: guest at May 19, 2008 7:41 PM

"What are the elementary school options in PLG?"

For public I would look slightly south of PLG at the mini schools in PS 139 (on Argyle Rd.) or PS 217 even further south. The elementary schools in PLG proper are not so hot."

P.S. 139 and P.S. 217 are in the Victorian Flatbush neighborhoods of Beverley Square West and Ditmas Park. Both are great schools which are improving yearly due to parental and community oranizations becoming more involved with the activities. However, neither are the zoned schools for LM or PLG. In recent years because the schools have become viable options for homeowners in the area who previously relied on private schools, the administrations at both schools have become much more strict with having parents provide proof of residency within the zone, so it would be hard to enroll a child from PLG/LM, although I am sure they would be welcomed by the parents.

Posted by: guest at May 19, 2008 8:33 PM

This is a nice house. Ancient, antiquated, and needing everything including, I'm sure, air conditioning and plumbing.
IT IS INANE TO PAY TOP DOLLAR FOR FAULTY GOODS.
we know you hate your parents, we know you hate the suburbs where everything is "perfect" and therefore you would be justified paying $400,000 for a decrepit, old house in a lower-middle-class sector of Kings County. But a million dollars? You are the douchebag par excellence if you take your contrariness to that level. If you resent your parents, tell them you have other plans at Thanksgiving. Don't express your resentment by overspending on a house in borderline Brooklyn, because in two or three years, your parents will be telling their friends that their children, who have no sense, have gotten themselves in trouble in Brooklyn real etstate.

Posted by: guest at May 19, 2008 9:22 PM

7:41pm, as I said in my earlier post, no house in LM that has been on the market recently in the $1.4M range needs all of the work that you list.

7:37pm, when you say that you know of no families where money isn't an issue, you are emphasizing my point. Another person indicated that a four-story house was "too big" for most families and I simply stated that most families in NYC would take the space in a heartbeat if they could afford it.

I think this Midwood house is nice and well appointed. I happen to think it's overpriced, but I understand that everyone comes in much lower than asking these days, so as a seller you gotta start high.

Posted by: jurist at May 19, 2008 10:04 PM

Actually, 66 (or is it 64) Midwood Street sold two weeks ago. It needs a complete renovation, from what I understand.

Posted by: guest at May 19, 2008 10:09 PM

9:22, You miss the point. This house has had all the work done already.

Posted by: guest at May 19, 2008 10:11 PM

Posted by: jurist at May 19, 2008 10:16 PM

$50K for new wiring? No way. And even re-doing floors shouldn't be 5K. $40K for a new kitchen, yes.

Posted by: guest at May 19, 2008 10:44 PM

10:44 the prices 7:44 quoted were for having th work done right, not having some handyman schmuck come in and screw it up so it has to be redone.

Posted by: guest at May 20, 2008 1:09 AM

The new wiring price I quoted includes plaster repair. 5k for re-doing floors is for three floors. The point I'm trying to make here is that this house has had a good amount of money spent on it by the current owner-much more than 200k.

Posted by: guest at May 20, 2008 7:56 AM

Yah.. Sure, nobody disagrees that it takes a ton of money to do a gut reno, but what LM house that's been on the market recently really needs 200k worth of work??
Most of the houses that have been posted on this blog have been in excellent condition, and the few that looked rough just needed cosmetic work and maybe some updates.

Posted by: guest at May 20, 2008 8:20 AM

Someone here asked the question "Why is this house priced so much higher than other houses for sale on Midwood Street". My answer is:
Because this is a renovated three story house, while most of the other houses are two stories, and need work. Only one other house on the block (that's on the market now) has been fully renovated, and that's 196 Midwood. The ask is 1.1M, and I think they have a buyer. The other houses need a minimum of new kitchens and baths. One of the two stories needs a complete gut reno. The three story house on the corner of Rogers needs the garden level renovated, and it is asking 1.3M.

All this just to say, this is a nice house and the price is not outrageous.

Posted by: guest at May 20, 2008 8:47 AM

In answer to 8:20AM's question, there is ONE LM house currently on the market that needs $200 K worth of work--1860 Bedford Ave., the April 28th HOTD. This is VERY unusual in LM (and the rest of PLG) and is a rare exception to 8:20's accurate observation.

Posted by: Bob Marvin at May 20, 2008 8:51 AM

Why would anyone pay over $1m for a house that has so few services nearby? I've always loved PLG, but you just don't have the amenities to support these kinds of prices. One or two restaurants and zero grocery stores just doesn't cut it.

Posted by: guest at May 20, 2008 9:23 AM

This is NEW YORK, the greatest city in the world. Buck up and bend over. You can't expect to get something for the price you pay. Just pay up and shut up.

Jeez. Soon people are going to think that just because they pay over $1m, they are entitled to access to grocery stores. What's next -- wanting washing machines or a/c in apartments? Expecting to be able to walk to a restaurant? Demanding a cultural life? Neighbors who aren't working 70 hours a week?

Posted by: guest at May 20, 2008 9:35 AM

I'll tell you who would spend over 1M for a house in Lefferts Manor- families. The place is being filled with young families who want to stay in the city and have a peaceful pretty place to live, and a big house for the kids and the dog to run around in. That's why we moved here from our crowded Park Slope 1300 square foot apt. The neighbors are friendly, there is a great social scene of dinner parties in these great houses, and a real sense of community-and I mean a real community of people who buy here and STAY. Most of the houses that come to market are from eldrely people who have lived here for 40 years. The few turnovers, like this one, whose family who owned it for four years, are due to divorce or family issues that have nothing to do with the location.

Posted by: guest at May 20, 2008 9:53 AM

5k for floors in this size house would be a bargain. Ditto 50k for elec and the associated plaster repair.

Posted by: guest at May 20, 2008 10:29 AM

the renovation costs listed here are a joke. maybe if you don't work and be your own contractor. try double all the numbers.

Posted by: guest at May 20, 2008 10:38 AM

9:53 is right. This has been true of Lefferts Manor forever. I could have written the same thing when I moved to LM in the mid-70s [except that I'd have to substitute "cat" for "dog"]. The first owner of my house probably felt the same way in 1900.

Posted by: Bob Marvin at May 20, 2008 10:58 AM

"The few turnovers, like this one, whose family who owned it for four years, are due to divorce or family issues that have nothing to do with the location."

That is certianly not true. I moved out of LM a little over a year ago after living there for just over 2 yeas because of the area, and I know of three other families that have done the same recently. It has lots of offer, and the houses are a good "deal" compared to other areas, but I was miserable living there. Why? Because of the isolation, having to drive to the slope almost every day in order to go anywhere, and the awkwardness of being in an enclave surrounded by poverty. There are other reasons too, but those are the biggies. My advice to anyone is to spend a lot of time there before jumping in. I was there a few weeks ago visiting friends (who are very content there) and I was so happy that we moved!

Posted by: guest at May 20, 2008 11:46 AM

There is certainly some validity to 11:46's comment. Obviously, after 33 years in PLG/LM I do not feel the same way he does. I fall in the same category as 11:46's contented friends, but I agree that anyone thinking of moving here SHOULD "spend a lot of time ...before jumping in." I think this is prudent for ANYONE contemplating moving to any brownstone neighborhood. Still, there are many people here who have been in the neighborhood for MANY years and these people, or their estates, eventually, constitute the largest group of sellers.

Posted by: Bob Marvin at May 20, 2008 12:14 PM

"but I was miserable living there. Why? Because of the isolation, having to drive to the slope almost every day in order to go anywhere, and the awkwardness of being in an enclave surrounded by poverty."

Imagine how miserable and awkard it is to live IN an enclave of poverty!

Posted by: guest at May 20, 2008 4:10 PM

I think this house might be worth 1.35, or close, to someone who falls in love with it - but I don't think anyone is going to fall in love with it from this listing. The description is not too bad, just a little over the top - but the photos are terrible. Good photos can bring in a buyer who might not have been looking in a specific area or at a specific type of property - this owner needs to invest in a quality photographer to maximize their chances of bringing in buyers who want to pay this kind of money.

Posted by: geekspice at May 20, 2008 4:23 PM

To Bob Marvin,

Is your e-mail address at earthlink still valid? I'm trying to send you a message, but it keeps bouncing back....

Posted by: roberto at May 20, 2008 5:09 PM

I've been inside, at one of the open houses.
This house is a 3-story plus basement.The kitchen and baths are very high-end. The photographs are bad and don't show that, as people are also saying.

If they need to make this much on it though, they invested too much in the fancy kitchen. Right now in this market this should be $1.25MM.

But for those saying the house should be $1MM, you're clearly not serious buyers and have not been looking at what is on the market. You can't buy 3 stories plus basement, in a house that's fully renovated for a million anymore in any neighborhood in Brooklyn. Dream on. If you're waiting to find that then you'll be waiting forever. You should be looking at larger size condos and coops instead, not houses.

Posted by: guest at May 20, 2008 6:07 PM

No change in my Email address Roberto.

FWIW, the Email address listed for PLG house tour info goes to me as well--that one is plghousetour[AT]earthlink[DOT]net

Posted by: Bob Marvin at May 20, 2008 6:11 PM

"An enclave surrounded by poverty"

Newsflash: just because people are black does not mean they are poor.

Not sure all the limousine liberals know that.

Posted by: guest at May 20, 2008 6:21 PM