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May 7, 2008
DoBro's Average Household Income to Double?
The average household income in Downtown Brooklyn and surrounding neighborhoods is expected to double in two years, according to marketing material for 345 Adams Street. Roger Greenstone, who's eponymous firm is marketing Muss Development's two floors of retail in the building, told us he expects to score high-end tenants that will cater to affluent residents in the sorrounding community, a contingency that's quickly taking over. Last year, Scan/US Inc. estimated households in Downtown Brooklyn, Brooklyn Heights, Fort Greene, Cobble Hill, Boerum Hill and Park Slope earn an average annual income of $87,139 based on U.S. Census Information. The Downtown Brooklyn Partnership estimates that number will jump to $172,000 $142,000 by 2010 thanks in part to 27,000 new condos under construction, according to the brochure. (Update: DBP just alerted us to the fact that Greenstone had the number wrong.) Some of those projects are presently stalled, but people have already moved into others like One Hanson Place and construction cranes are everywhere. Even if the increase is not quite double, it will still be pretty significant. See the full data after the jump...
Developer to Air Out 345 Adams Street [Brownstoner]
Chan upbeat about Downtown Brooklyn [Real Estate Weekly]
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Comments
I live in that area. Can't wait to see my income double by 2010. I'm psyched.
Posted by: guest at May 7, 2008 9:33 AM
DoBro??
Posted by: guest at May 7, 2008 9:42 AM
I guess this means we should put an immediate moratorium on new housing construction!
Posted by: Polemicist at May 7, 2008 9:45 AM
9:42 I hear ya. The other day I saw "FiDi" and had no f***ing idea what they were talking about until I figured out it was real estate weaselese for the Financial District.
Posted by: guest at May 7, 2008 9:46 AM
Well, that's hunky dory, but a closer look at their stats shows a per capita income of $39,622. Two thirds of the population pulls in less than $75K, with the largest group, over 19 thousand, making less than $25K.
Which means there is a long way to go in the rising tide raises all boats theory of economic advancement in Bklyn. I think projecting $172K in pockets of certain areas may be accurate, but hardly across the board of the area shown. Anyone jumping on the bandwagon to provide nothing but luxury goods to this proposed group may find themselves very disappointed.
I think we need all kinds of new retail establishments, many more upscale, sure, but to advertise downtown as a new Madison Ave waiting to happen, is wishful thinking at best, and misleading.
Posted by: Montrose Morris at May 7, 2008 9:51 AM
I agree I think its a great opportunity in Downtown Brooklyn... With buildings like 53 Boerum Place, 75 Smith, 110 Livingston, One Hanson Place, Oro, Belltell Lofts and more the area will only get stronger and the stores and restaurants will only get nicer...
I just bought in Boerum Hill near the Downtown Brooklyn border and can't wait to see Downtown Brooklyn's continued effort to develop in the next several years...
Posted by: guest at May 7, 2008 9:53 AM
Well well. If it isn't Montrose Morris and her malodorous poonanner.
Posted by: guest at May 7, 2008 9:53 AM
Oh yeah, of course it will. The recession and thousands of layoffs on Wall Street and the industries they support will have absolutely no effect on "DoBro." People will stroll from their newly purchased apartments in the bucolic (as depicted in their marketing materials) Toren down Murder Avenue showering money on everyone. Or to the Apple Store in Fulton Mall. I wish, I only wish.
Posted by: guest at May 7, 2008 9:57 AM
where are all the low & moderate income people going to go? The rise in average household income does not mean that incomes of these groups will rise. "rise in average household income" is code words for more rapid gentrification to come.
Posted by: guest at May 7, 2008 10:07 AM
Nothing appeals to more people across all income levels than a good hot dog stand!!!!
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at May 7, 2008 10:10 AM
Can someone not call this area DoBro? Its as offensive as calling it Banjo or Mandolin.
Posted by: guest at May 7, 2008 10:10 AM
Many women don't appreciate the devastating effects that childbirth will have on their bodies. There is the weight gain, which of course is horrendous and to a degree irreversible. Then there's the fact that the vagina gets stretched out and...well, it's never the same. My wife was a tight young thing when we first married. After our first child was born, having sex with her was weird...kinda like just having sex with water or something.
Posted by: guest at May 7, 2008 10:11 AM
excuse me? Personally I don't care if you got your money being smart, stupid, inheritance or theft.But your Manhattan attitude is showing. what got your knickers in a twist? I basically agreed with you about value and neighborhoods (or can't you read?) but if you think the police blotter is the only indication of what a neighborhood is like, let me point out to yiou I had a gun held to my head and was robbed in Brooklyn Heights. More of my manhattan friends have been mugged there than any Brooklyn friends.
As for the snide comment about a couple hundred thousand- well what can I say- you just must be EVER so much better than the rest of us because you have big bucks. So when you want to know how I can make a judgement about you- you make it really easy.
Posted by: guest at May 7, 2008 10:16 AM
"like throwing a hot dog down a hallway"
Posted by: guest at May 7, 2008 10:19 AM
"where are all the low & moderate income people going to go?"
Atlantic Yards anyone?
Posted by: guest at May 7, 2008 10:23 AM
I've seen us get wildly off topic before but 10:11 and 10:16 are just mind boggling!!!
Posted by: daveinbedstuy at May 7, 2008 10:24 AM
Greenstone might have better luck trying to woo shops that have been pushed out of SoHo than showing his new affluent neighborhood scheme- which is entirely based upon new high priced housing stock that may or may not take hold.
The household income has to increase if he hopes to sell his million dollar condos; the current residents can't afford it.
Posted by: Karka at May 7, 2008 10:26 AM
it something wrong with your server. these posts are all off topic. crime/sex/hot dogs? these topics are all some how connected in a weird fantasy type way but not to the topic of the rise in the "average household income in Downtown Brooklyn"
Posted by: guest at May 7, 2008 10:30 AM
Fulton Mall is h-i-g-h class baby!
Move over 5th Avenue Manahttan ...
Posted by: guest at May 7, 2008 10:34 AM
asians have the highest avergae household income in the US. he needs to woo them.
Posted by: guest at May 7, 2008 10:38 AM
uniqlo (sp?) would be AMAZING in this location
Posted by: guest at May 7, 2008 11:26 AM
I don't get it. How does the new condo developments translate to increased income?
Posted by: guest at May 7, 2008 11:33 AM
11:33 because only people of a certain income will qualify for purchase of these condos. these are expensive condos. condo residents will soon far outnumber all other residents of downtown
Posted by: guest at May 7, 2008 11:39 AM
Because of the amount of money it cost to buy those condos. If you look at the data, there are now 20,043 households in the area earning more than $100,000. It says 27,000 condos (households) are under construction in the study area, although that number is high, considering some projects (most notably Atlantic Yards) have not began construction and will not be finished by 2010.
But if you look at the new projects that are under construction or have been completed, you can see that a household living there would easily have to earn over $100,000 a year. The lowest listing at the typically priced BellTel Lofts, for example, is a studio for $540,000, which would require a $108,000 down payment for a mortgage with 20 percent down. The most expensive listing at BellTel is a three bedroom for $1.89 million, requiring a $378,000 down payment. Even the rentals are pretty high - a studio at BellTel is $2,500 a month, which is 30 percent of a $100,000 a year income.
And that's not considering the multi-million sales of existing condos and townhouses in these prime brownstone neighborhoods.
So while the economic slowdown will drag some of that new construction down, there's still going to be a huge boon in the number of households earning $100,000 or more in the study area, offsetting what is earned by people in the lower income brackets, who are not a growing population in this area.
Posted by: sarah ryley at May 7, 2008 11:54 AM
The alternative to your take on it, Sarah, is that a whole bunch of these units will sit empty for ages, with the developers having to eventually lower prices and rents to more affordable levels.
Posted by: johnife at May 7, 2008 12:09 PM
Well, this is assuming all those condos get bought at expected value and that older properties retain their value, which may or may not happen. Weird things can happen when bubbles burst.
Posted by: guest at May 7, 2008 12:13 PM
about 15,000 of those 27,000 apts are atlantic yard which may never be built.
even if they do, we are talking 10 years from now.
saying 27,000 units NOW is rather absurd.
there are less than 10,000 coming online now.
a very different thing.
Posted by: guest at May 7, 2008 12:15 PM
I was just explaining how that figures could work. And even if the prices on these units were lowered, a household would still have to earn more than $100,000 to afford the majority of them.
Posted by: sarah ryley at May 7, 2008 12:17 PM
i agree with sarah -- even if prices are lowered the average income is going uuup.
Posted by: guest at May 7, 2008 12:21 PM
Atlantic Yards has 6,500 apartments. And the study area includes Dumbo, Fort Greene, Park Slope, Carroll Gardens, Brooklyn Heights, Cobble Hill and Boerum Hill. In the post I noted that the number is high, probably based on best possible scenario conditions. But experts also consider the above neighborhoods among the most stable in Brooklyn in the event of a huge economic downturn. Also, it doesn't have to be hedge fund tycoons. A couple with each partner earning more than $50,000 for example, that could be anyone in a union job. But I am not going to pretend to know what the future extent of this economic downturn will be here. The post depicts a present forecast, which is why we ended the headline with a question mark...
Posted by: sarah ryley at May 7, 2008 12:33 PM
The comments regarding sales of new luxury condos are why commercial development lags behind residential by as much as 15 years. No retailer, unless they've got money to burn, is going to heavily invest until the moving vans start rolling, if then. All of this is rosy speculation at the moment.
Brooklyn Heights has been an upper class haven for years, yet Montague Street can't support very many upscale retail spots. The stores and restaurants that have been there the longest cater to the 9-5 middle income workers in the area. Will most upper income people always just shop in Manhattan, or out of town? How are the new upscale shops in DUMBO doing? ABC Carpet couldn't make it work.
Not saying no one should try - they certainly should.
Posted by: Montrose Morris at May 7, 2008 12:45 PM
Speaking of other jobs (tangent alert?) I have a friend who just graduated with her nursing degree that is starting at $72,000. When I reported on the longshoremen during the whole Red Hook piers controversy, many of them were clutching year-end pay stubs of well over $100,000. A friend of mine beginning in the fashion industry earns over $80,000. Another friend living in Brooklyn who gives laser facials (don't know the exact term for these) to people living in the Upper East Side earns about that much a year. Have two of those people move in together and you have a household of over $142,000.
Posted by: sarah ryley at May 7, 2008 12:46 PM
I agree with you Sarah. Some people don't realize what a lot of these jobs pay.
I have a friend who is a waitress 4 nights a week in a busy Midtown restaurant, and she made almost $70,000 this past year!!!
That was working about 25 hours a week!
Posted by: guest at May 7, 2008 12:53 PM
I find part of the problem with why incomes aren't rising as much as they should is because many people are too afraid to ASK FOR A RAISE.
I work in the arts and started at 30K six years ago. The first few years, my bosses called me in for a salary review, but as times got a little tougher (and maybe they got a little greedier) they stopped. Finally I decided to bite the bullet and start asking for a raise myself. No one is going to look out for me like I AM!!
So here I am 6 years later making almost 6 figures.
It helps to stand up for yourself. This is an expensive city. People should be getting raises every year or two to pay for the increased cost of living.
Posted by: guest at May 7, 2008 12:57 PM
"The post depicts a present forecast, which is why we ended the headline with a question mark..."
But, Sarah, you concluded in your paragraph that "Even if the increase is not quite double, it will still be pretty significant." Before I even checked, I knew this extremely euphoric thread could not have been posted by brownstoner, himself. I mean, he's euphoric too but not to this extreme.
This is nothing more than pump and dump fluff.
I will pray for you, Sarah.
Posted by: guest at May 7, 2008 1:00 PM
Since when does someone needs prayers for being optimistic, 1:00??
I think YOU are the one who needs to do and be prayed for.
Do you use your pessimistic and nasty tone in EVERY facet of your life, or just on anonymous blogs about real estate?
Posted by: guest at May 7, 2008 1:06 PM
Responding to 1 p.m. "Significant" means "sufficiantly great or important to be worthy of attention" or "having a particular meaning or indicitve of something."
Posted by: sarah ryley at May 7, 2008 1:23 PM
sarah -- what happened to the atlantic auction post?
Posted by: guest at May 7, 2008 1:25 PM
No idea. That wasn't mine. But I now have to bar myself from commenting any further because I am falling behind on a story! I can see how this becomes addictive when procrastinating!
Posted by: sarah ryley at May 7, 2008 1:35 PM
lol -- that's the business model, right? : )
Posted by: guest at May 7, 2008 1:37 PM
"I have a friend who is a waitress 4 nights a week in a busy Midtown restaurant, and she made almost $70,000 this past year!!!
That was working about 25 hours a week!"
People who work in "Gentlemen's Clubs" don't count!
Posted by: guest at May 7, 2008 1:48 PM
Montrose made the best points at 9:51. There's no questiojn higher-income people are and will be mving in. But the majority of residents will remain lower midle class to poor for some time. There'll be no overnight conversion!
Posted by: guest at May 7, 2008 1:54 PM
5th Avenue in Park Slope has bascially gone from burned out and abandoned to upscale and chic overnight. It can happen.
Now by overnight, I mean about 6 or 7 years, but that's pretty overnight in the grand scheme of things.
Does anyone REMEMBER what 5th was like in 2000???
All 99 cent stores and bodegas. Now it's one of the nicest, if not THE nicest shopping and entertainment strip in Brooklyn, in my opinion.
Posted by: guest at May 7, 2008 2:09 PM
Nothing to do with the topic, but I have to give major kudos to Sarah for participating in this thread. I've been hoping Mr. B and others would comment more as I find it quite interesting hearing their responses to various posts. Thanks Sarah!
Posted by: Biff Champion at May 7, 2008 2:34 PM
2:09 -----I agree 100%. 5th avenue is amazing. I have been in the area since the early 90's and still can't get over at the pace of upscale stores and resturants opening up. The only negative is the parking. I used to find parking without any problems...now I have to circle around the block 3-4 times.
Posted by: guest at May 7, 2008 3:44 PM
5th is an anomaly unlikely to be repeated any time soon.
Posted by: guest at May 7, 2008 3:51 PM
3:51: I don't agree.
It has happened also on Smith Street, it's happening bigtime on Atlantic Avenue right now, it's happened and is still happening on Vanderbilt, and it's also happening on Court Street, Franklin, Washington, DeKalb, MYRTLE!
It's happening all over!! How can you say 5th is an anomaly??
Posted by: guest at May 7, 2008 4:20 PM
In comparison to the other streets namedropped at 4:20, 5th Avenue is an anomaly in speed, degree and scale.
Posted by: guest at May 7, 2008 4:25 PM
6 years ago, Myrtle was called Murder Avenue by most.
Now it is a thriving retail strip getting better every day.
It has not come as far as 5th, but I believe it began at a lower starting point so it's all relative. Every street 4:20 refers to has made incredibly fast strides over the past 6-7 years.
Most were horrible 10 years ago.
And the post was not about speed...it was about new retail coming to fill the increasingly high income earners in Brooklyn.
No mention of how fast or to what degree or to what scale, simply that it will most likely happen.
I agree that 5th is a perfect example of this, but it is by no means the only one.
Posted by: guest at May 7, 2008 4:34 PM
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