Co-op of the Day: 179 Ocean Parkway

This is for all those people who say that there's no affordable places in Brooklyn anymore...

Just not true.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 12:46 PM

Hello Prospect Expressway!!!

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 12:52 PM

It all depends on what you mean by "affordable." The median household income in NYC is less than $50,000 a year.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 12:53 PM

Love the bathroom. Tons of space makes up for boring kitchen. But I don't know a damn thing about this neighborhood.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 12:54 PM

12:53 - Take the statistics out that relate to "Project Dwellers" and that figure is probably closer to 100K

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 1:04 PM

Take out the top 1% and it is probably closer to $30k.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 1:13 PM

For those looking to BUY property in New York, the median income is not 50K.

More like 150K, my friend.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 1:14 PM

"Take out the top 1% and it is probably closer to $30k."

The operative word here is "Median" the top 1% of earners are far fewer in number than those occupying the projects.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 1:17 PM

Isn't the median income of Manhattan like 85K?

Just sayin...

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 1:21 PM

This apartment is nicer than many that I've seen in Park Slope. Of course Kensington is no Park Slope. In its favor there are many ethnic shops selling a variety of wares from cheeses and baklava to clorful fabrics. many . The neighborhood is nice with easy access to the Prospect Expressway or the "F" train. The schools are even good and there are many parks including Prospect Park not being too far away. This location is appealing because it is walking distance to both Park Slope and Ditmas Park. That would be long walks but walkable none the less. Of course, you can't beat the price. If you are looking for a place to call home and not an investment in the "next up and coming" neighborhood you might like this area.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 1:24 PM

Thank you, broker at 1:24.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 1:41 PM

1:24 here. Not a broker. If I were a broker I would have definitely called it "up and coming" and "a good investment." But if this apartment sells because of my post, I will go to the broker and demand my cut of their commission.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 1:51 PM

"Isn't the median income of Manhattan like 85K?

Just sayin..."

Again, This statistic includes all of the projects on the East side and Harlem. Not to mention the rent control tenants and college dorms.

Take them out of the equation, as well as the top earners to be fair, and I still think the statistic is closer to $100K+

Certainly the previous post regarding the median income of people actually in the market to buy an apartment is valid.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 1:55 PM

this is also in an apparent walk up. depends on the floor that the apartment is on.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 1:56 PM

Really, are college dorms included? Do these stats live on the internet someplace?

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 2:06 PM

sdrubbins: Obviously a bus has yet to hit you.

Are you from the suburbs where everyone gets their own bathroom?

Interesting how you threw up a little when you saw the kitchen. I did the same when I saw your post.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 2:11 PM

"Take them out of the equation, as well as the top earners to be fair, and I still think the statistic is closer to $100K+"

I'm assuming the statistic is by household. Does it take it to account that many homes could possibly have 3 or more incomes?

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 2:16 PM

2:16 - Yes it does. That is why it is "Household Income" and not Individual or Personal.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 2:18 PM

1:55
"Certainly the previous post regarding the median income of people actually in the market to buy an apartment is valid."

So by your logic a $459,000 apartment with a 20% down payment is affordable if you only count the people who can afford to buy it. You don't happen to work in the Bush administration by any chance, do you?

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 2:22 PM

Median household income in Manhattan is $60,017 as of 2006. Median family income is $70,867.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 2:26 PM

My income is 180K. I must be rich! Yeah.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 2:30 PM

I'm considering Kensington. But, from what I read re: this apt, I suspect the noise levels will be pretty high facing Ocean Parkway.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 2:32 PM

"I'm considering Kensington. But, from what I read re: this apt, I suspect the noise levels will be pretty high facing Ocean Parkway."

Yep and that is why it's 459K and not 1.2 million as it would be on a quiet block of PS. Heard the phrase...you get what you pay for? This is a good price for a large apartment. You have to compromise if you don't want to spend over a million in this city. It will always be that way.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 2:37 PM

It never ceases to amaze me how unaware many of the people on this site are about how fortunate they are. Through hard work, inheritance, luck, whatever, if you have a high income, good for you. But based on 2006 data less than 10% of households in New York City earn over $150,000 a year. To most of that 90% who earn less, a $459,000 apartment is not "affordable."
We now return you to our regulary scheduled real estate porn circle jerk.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 2:40 PM

hard work in a specific field or direction that is.

hard work alone doesn't get you rich, ask my old parents.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 2:45 PM

I live on Ocean Parkway and it IS loud and the constant car action makes things dusty/dirty. The higher up you are, the less of a problem it is. The neighborhood is very diverse but not at all "happening," and it's been "up and coming" for a long time. We rent right now (quite cheaply) and when we're ready to buy we'll look in other neighborhoods. It's a fine place to live, don't get me wrong, but it's a temporary solution for us. I will say that the area closer to Windsor Terrace has a very different vibe from the area near Ditmas Avenue, and I would recommend living north of Cortelyou Road to anyone considering the neighborhood. There are bargains to be had here, for sure, but it's not turning into the next Park Slope any time soon.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 2:48 PM

Ocean Parkway is no noisier than 5th Ave, 7th Ave or Prospect Park West in Park Slope. The lights on OP are synchronized so the traffic moves along without too much horn blowing. OP is harder to cross though. You definitely have to cross at the green and even then you have to watch for cars in the turning lanes and walk fast. OP does have the bike and pedestrain lanes and is lined with benches.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 2:56 PM

Hey 2:40, you are way too grown-up and compassionate to be posting here!

Our household income (my husband and I) is $100,000 and we don't consider $459,000 affordable, and an inheritance is not in our future (hard work is, that's for sure!). So we've resolved ourselves to enjoying life and the city as renters, looking at real estate porn on the internet, saving as much as we can, and then buying a place we can afford when we're ready to do it. Probably that will mean leaving the city, which is a heartbreak, but also reality. And that's what life is like here in the middle. It sucks, but it's also ok.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 2:57 PM

The area not turning into the next Park Slope anytime soon would be a definite plus.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 3:02 PM

2:57 - $500K income is in the middle in NY, $100K is poor.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 3:04 PM

@2:56, this is 2:48. Somehow Ocean Parkway FEELS nosier and grittier. The bike and pedestrian lanes are nice, and I do enjoy watching all the old guys playing chess and dominoes. Like I said, it's a fine place to live, but it's not about to get HOT HOT HOT anytime soon. Another thing to keep in mind, if you need to consider school districts, is that some of Kensington is in District 15 and some of it is in District 22. Both have good schools, but from a District POV, I think 15 is better. So I would caution anyone considering a move there to carefully check zoning.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 3:04 PM

OK 3:04, then I'm poor. Thanks for sharing. It's still OK.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 3:06 PM

3:04. See 2:40 (and census figures). If you make even $250K, you're in the top 5%. Even in New York.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 3:09 PM

Taken from Housemath - http://www.housemath.us/

Home Price - 459,000
Maintenance - 703

Mortgage 30 years @ 6%

Downpayment 104,977 (20%)

Total Monthly (with maintenance) 3,134.00

Assuming a couple buys the house, they'll each have to fork over 1,567 to cover the mortgage. Assuming each partner pays only 30% of their monthly net income, they each must earn a yearly salary of 90,000 to earn a monthly net of 5,277.19 (30% of this is 1,583 - close enough to the shared monthly)

In summation, how many "middle class" jobs pay 90K? This city has become mathematically impossible for a true middle class family to buy in 2008. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 3:22 PM

Police, Fire and Corrections all pay about 65K at top pay. Include uniform check, night differential and overtime about 85K-90K. Get promoted you are over 100K at top pay. Teachers slightly more. Bus drivers, conducters motorman 65K-100K. Tradesman - plumbers, electricians, HVAC 50K-100K. Thank goodness most of these people choose to live outside of the city. If they didn't we would be competing against them for housing.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 4:01 PM

You, in New York City there are about a hundred more jobs other than Police, Fire, Corrections, Bus Drivers Conducters, motormen, and tradesman. Or I guess everyone else working in other jobs are just not worthy enough to live within the 5 boroughs, or have decent housing. I work with women who are home health aides that live far out in the Bronx and have to commute up to 2 hours a day to various parts of Manhattan and Brooklyn, or Queens to go to patients. Even in their far out poverty-ridden neighborhoods they are concerned about rent going up.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 4:20 PM

4:01,

Assuming those numbers are correct, how many years before someone makes top salary and what percentage of total workers are allotted top salary? I also think 100k for a Bus driver is a stretch, no?

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 4:26 PM

The unit we looked at in this building a couple of months ago was being offered at 150k more than the owners paid two years ago. They took if off the market because they couldn't get their ask. Nice reno, but no thanks. Not our fault you chose to sink all that money into an apartment in an area where property values appreciate at a pretty glacial pace. Check the comps carefully, is my advice. Prices are all over the map in this area. Don't be the sucker that overpays to live in what is one of the more bland areas of Brooklyn. Oh, and it's about a twenty minute walk to Windsor Terrace, even, if that gives you an idea of how convenient amenities are. True, there are some smaller groceries, a deli here and there, and some interesting smaller restaurants, but seems to me location, location, location should be the guiding principle here. Oh, and the F train wasn't running into Manhattan the day we went down there, a circumstance which we understand is not all that uncommon past the 15th street stop because of track work.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 4:31 PM

4:01, I don't know where you live but my husband is a NYC teacher and he doesn't make anywhere near 85k. I consider his work public service with a housing stipend. We'd be in the burbs if it weren't for my salary keeping us afloat.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 4:34 PM

Get real. Ocean Parkway is noisier than 5th Ave, 7th Ave and Prospect Park West combined.

It's more like 4th Ave, only wider, louder, and with trees.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 4:34 PM

3:22...

20% of 459K is $104,000?

Really???

Perhaps your poor math skills have hampered your ability to move up the compensation ladder...

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 4:51 PM

i thought 60k was a pretty normal starting salary out of college in nyc. was for me.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 4:53 PM

4:51,

That includeds closing costs. Housemath calculation, should have clarified. Great site if you aren't familiar.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 5:04 PM

Closing costs on a home this price (I know, I just bought one) is around $6500-7500.

Not $13,000.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 5:17 PM

so basically for $3100 a month (or roughly the average price of a manhattan/doorman 1 bedroom) you can purchase a 3 bedroom in brooklyn...

sounds about right to me.

and very few people only spend 30% of their income on housing in nyc. it's much closer to 40%.

if you have no car, insurance or gas costs, the higher percentage works out just fine...

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 5:20 PM

My Wife and I make $150K bought a place for $600K with 80K down and are easily affording it. We have no other debt.

A couple making $100K should have no problem buying a $450K Home. Just stop wasting your money on whatever it is you are currently wasting it on.

With 20% down your mortgage and maintenace is $2,150 + $700 or $2,850. Thats $34,200/year. Your really cant afford that on $100K? Even after taxes (Which will be virtually nothing after deducting mortgage interest) this is more than affordable.

Your income will grow over time, but the mortgage stays the same. I guess if you are buying $5 Lattes and shopping in Soho every weekend this is not affordable, but that comes down to lifestyle choice and not affordability.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 5:25 PM

amen, 5:25!!

With the deduction of morgage interest, you are basically paying less than 2500 a month to live in a 1200 sf, 3 bedroom in a neighborhood which really only seems to be on the up and up....even if it never becomes another park slope...

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 5:33 PM

teachers make 43k out of college.

I know some that have masters who make around 70k. They area all around 25.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 5:46 PM

No Sdrubbins, After tax Take home pay is closer to $80K or $6,700 a month because you will have roughly $22K in deduction for interest and another $5K or so in property tax deductiions.

Your tax libilty will be very little if anything over the 7.65% for SS and Med.

Do you really take home only 50% of your income? are you sure you are not including 401K, transportation, medical, Child Support Garnishment, etc?

again, it comes down to lifestyle. If you dont think you can budget yourself on $3K or $4K a month after housing, then definatley not affordable. Personally, I think this is more than reasonable but I dont live your life, so you have to figure it out yourself.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 5:49 PM

Sdrubbins:

You are a bit of a hypocrite, aren't you?

So the other day you posted the following quote regarding a home for sale for 1.499 million dollars:

"I will say: if I did make $150K (or was married with a double middle-class income), I'd be sorely tempted to snatch up the 10th St house or the Degraw house. I love these small multifamily houses - they give me hope that I can eventually move up from an apartment to a house without selling out and becoming a rich jerkoff like the above poster."

But now all the sudden someone making 100K can't afford a 600K place?

Wow man...you are all over the map.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 5:50 PM

some of you people are delusional. i am a teacher with a Master's Degree, and 30 credits beyond my Master's. I have been teaching for 8 years, and just make $70,000 a year. So...who are these 25 year olds who make $70,000 a year? i would like to meet them. Also, has anyone factored in childcare, or the fact that someone might only work part-time, in order to take care of a child? That is quite a hefty expense.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 6:52 PM

Hi again. It's me, the poor person with the household income of $100,000. Actually, our money doesn't get spent on $5 lattes. Take home, for us, is about $5000. The first 10% of all net income goes into savings. 401K gets maxed out and health insurance is deducted via work. Then the rest gets spent on diapers (so many diapers, can't wait for the kid to get potty trained!), life insurance, disability insurance, rent, food, electricity, landline phone (have to have it with a kid in the house in case electric goes out in an emergency. learned that back on 9/11), cellphones, and the cheapest cable TV (I may be poor, but you'll pry Jon Stewart out of my cold dead hands)/internet access we could find. Books & rental movies come from the library. Clothes come from Target or Old Navy. Furniture comes from all kinds of cheap-o places, and then we love it back to health. We have no debt. We cook almost all of our food at home (there's the occasional pizza ordered in). We clip those coupons, we shop those sales. It doesn't make us special or saintlike or anything else -- a lot of people find a way to get by on a LOT less. This is just what our life is like. We laugh a lot. Like I said, it kind of sucks but it's also kind of OK. I love houses, and beautiful living spaces, which is why I come here. I also admit I find all of the back and forth kind of amusing and sometimes kind of sad. And I like Park Slope. And I won't be ashamed of it!

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 6:58 PM

$100,000 poor person again. I forgot renters' insurance and co-payments for doctors. And cat food (but he's a small cat and doesn't eat much, so it's not a big deal).

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 7:06 PM

100,000K poor person - you take home $5000 you say, but I'll bet you have a tremendous 401K and I bet you get a tax refund in the order of tens of thousands of dolars.

If not, you have the wrong accountant.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 7:14 PM

"Or I guess everyone else working in other jobs are just not worthy enough to live within the 5 boroughs, or have decent housing."

To the contrary. Everyone is worthy enough to have decent housing. Even crackheads and prostitutes.

"how many "middle class" jobs pay 90K?"

A question was asked and I answered based on what I know. If you know of any others please enlighten us. There may be job seekers among us.

"how many years before someone makes top salary and what percentage of total workers are allotted top salary?"

Top pay is reached in 5 years with increases every year until top salary is reached. All who stay past 5 years reach top pay. That would be the majority of them.

"I also think 100k for a Bus driver is a stretch, no?"

No. Those with seniority can pick runs (routes) with built-in overtime and still work OT on their days off. The average would be about 65K with many making more. Motorman 100K.

"my husband is a NYC teacher and he doesn't make anywhere near 85k."

Your husband probably doesn't have a Masters and probably hasn't been teaching long. My recently retired mother made well over 85K.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 7:14 PM

"some of you people are delusional. i am a teacher with a Master's Degree, and 30 credits beyond my Master's. I have been teaching for 8 years, and just make $70,000 a year."

So 85K for a teacher with twice as much time as you is not delusional. Makes sense.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 7:22 PM

well heather...a single teacher making 70K a year also does not need a 1200 sf 3 bedroom apartment either.

you can find a 700sf 1 bedroom in this neighborhood for 250K or less.

if you are a dual income family making 120K or over, this apartment is really not that big of a stretch...

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 7:51 PM

Thanks to the Good Neighbor Next Door program, formerly Officer Next Door and Teacher Next Door, these civil servants are able to purchase homes for half price. The homes are HUD homes but HUD homes are now showing up in some very popular neighborhoods now. Many of these same civil servants are eligible for housing stipends in the form of cut rate rents and even apartments in the PJ's. If you are paying less than market rate rent or living in the PJ's where gas and electric are included in your rent, had your student loan forgiven, get major discounts at health clubs and othr places, you could save a sizable down payment.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 7:51 PM

I live in Kensington and off Ocean Parkway. I'll say honestly, I wouldn't want my bedroom window overlooking it BUT if this were in the back it'd be fine. The nieghborhood is safe, quiet and has a family feel w a couple hipsters mixed in. Our building is a lot of teachers and artists all who seemed to have worked hard for thier down payment. I like Kensington although we are missing a coffee shop! Anyway, it ain't Park Slope but we're ok w biking to a bar or hopping a couple stops on the train. I like that we don't live around a bunch of entitled 6 year olds and grumbling housewives but *working class* and diverse REAL people

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 9:27 PM

Heather,

Anyone who is middle class but paying $2000 monthly for daycare is crazy. If they get rid of the nanny and put the kids in daycare, like millions of other middle income families, that bill would get cut down to under $1000 monthly. There are daycare centers on every corner in every "middle class" neighborhood.

Posted by: guest at May 22, 2008 11:29 PM

my wife and i combined make close to 150k a year and this 459 place is too expensive

we currently rent a 3 bed 2 bath for $1740 includes all except electric (avg $80 a month) so why rush out the door?

we do not live the high life- we have a 6 year old car paid for which we only drive on the weekends

we pad our 401ks heavily and have $0 debt!!

we also have 90k liquid cash for a down payment and our credit scores are 750+

i refuse to be house poor and will not buy until i can afford the place with less then
30% of net but 25% net is my goal

we looked for quite sometime but i was not going to bid against some jackass playing with the banks funny money

i just signed a new lease (no rent increase)
thru 5/09 and plan on seriously scoring a place in early 09 if it makes sense

this part of brooklyn is bland imo

for all the others in a similar boat hang in there affordable apts. just may be available
in the not too distant future

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 7:57 AM

7.57, I hear you. I'm on 200, my wife is in college and looking after the kids. My car is 10 yrs old and I'm running it till it disintergrates. My rental for a three bedroom is similarly low, and I'm in a 23 min commute to Midtown. Its going to be tough to buy, I'm sure I will feel poor when I do. The tax deduction just won't make up for it, you can rent a better place than you can buy for the same amount since house prices and rents diverged so dramatically back in 2005.

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 8:44 AM

I make a 5 figure salary and bought a place recently for $550k. Saved $150k for a down payment/closing costs first. Monthly I pay less than $2200 in equivalent rent, taking into account tax effects. This is within the 40:1 ratio I could rent for, and is more than affordable for me, even while maxing out my 403b.

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 9:08 AM

"100,000K poor person - you take home $5000 you say, but I'll bet you have a tremendous 401K and I bet you get a tax refund in the order of tens of thousands of dolars.

If not, you have the wrong accountant."

You think its possible for a renter with this income to get at least a $20,000 tax refund? DING, DING, DING. We have a winner for stupidest comment on the thread.

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 9:45 AM

9:45 - i think you probably tie for winner of that prize...

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 10:03 AM

9.45 is correct - the only way you could do that is with a way-shady accountant

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 10:20 AM

So you guys think someone taking home 60K on 100K income is realistic? really? 40% Tax in taxes for 100K? No deductions at all? With Kids, Childcare Expenses, Max 401 K contributions.

You guys really have no idea how income tax works.

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 10:41 AM

Who said they had kids? Even taking the max 401K, lets say 15K, reducing your taxable income to 85K theres no way you getting tens of thousands back. You do live in NYC right? (you know - NYS and NYC tax on top of medicare and SS and Fed income tax).

Unless of course you are massively overpaying tax somehow in the first place - which means you are clown "who doesn't know how income tax works" and is lending the Fed "tens of thousands" of dollars interest-free until tax time.

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 10:58 AM

Agreed 60K take home pay is low for parents with a $100K income but I don't care how many deductions they have kids, 401k, etc. there's no way they can legally get "a tax refund in the order of tens of thousands dollars."

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 10:59 AM

Let me guess 10.41 - you earn 35K and have been fed the lie that the "rich" somehow pay less taxes than you proportionately.

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 10:59 AM

I make about 70K and got back 7K in April.

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 11:23 AM

11.23 - ok, how much had you paid in taxes already?

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 11:33 AM

I make 115K and my total tax laibility for 2007 was around 28K.

Someone with 100K salary with kids and a 401K should be netting at least around 75K

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 1:09 PM

Well, they buy diapers so I think we can assume they have a kid or two. And where in NYC can you find full time day care for less than $1000/month?!?!? Or should I say where that you would WANT to leave your child everyday?

Posted by: guest at May 23, 2008 8:27 PM