CB2 To Nip Liquor Licenses in the Bud (Light)

That's not what I said -- Rob Perris

Posted by: guest at May 14, 2008 10:03 AM

Move to the burbs if you don't want nightlife people.

Posted by: guest at May 14, 2008 10:10 AM

Community Board #3 has been trying to do something about this problem in E. Village and the Lower East Side for years and the SLA just keeps giving out more licenses. The CB has an advisory roll and as far as I can see, little or no power to stop someone from actually getting the license.

Posted by: guest at May 14, 2008 10:23 AM

I wish CB6 would also take notice and follow what CB2 is trying to do.
If you want to drink like a frat boy go back to your college town.

Posted by: guest at May 14, 2008 10:29 AM

Atlantic Ave and Henry is hardly residential. Unless people are living in that gas station.

Anyway, Magnetic Fields is closed. Monteros has 5 people in there at any time. Ditto Last Exit. There's Floyd and Chip Shop ad the only reason people are out on the street is bcs they're smoking, which is banned inside. Remember? We passed a law and we knew this was gonna happen and then in happened. Get over it.

Posted by: guest at May 14, 2008 10:29 AM

Yes!!

We killed off Atlantic yards, now onto bars!

Once we kill off the nightlife, we'll get rid of all those "low-end" restaurants and fast food chains.

Then maybe we'll take a look at what you're reading and eating at home.

Posted by: guest at May 14, 2008 10:31 AM

lame, lame, lame.

Posted by: guest at May 14, 2008 10:33 AM

The more Californians move to Brooklyn the more it will emulate Californian Draconia.

Ugh, time to move to Philly.

Posted by: guest at May 14, 2008 10:36 AM

biff, it's 10:29 again: MAGNETIC FIELDS IS CLOSED

Posted by: guest at May 14, 2008 10:39 AM

Time to WAKE UP people.

The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

The only way to combat these Bog Brother NIMBY's is to GET INVOLVED.

Make your voices heard and come to CB meetings before these pseudo-Soviet suburbanites take over our neighborhoods!!!!

Posted by: guest at May 14, 2008 10:39 AM

Big Brother, that is.

Bog Brother is Swamp Thing's ultra-liberal brother.

Posted by: guest at May 14, 2008 10:43 AM

I actually think we need *more* bars in Fort Greene.

Posted by: guest at May 14, 2008 10:50 AM

On this blog a mother pushing a baby on a stroller is a public nuisance but some drunk jerk off yakking away on his cellpohone in front of a bar at 3:00 AM while barfing on some neighboring stoop is defending truth, honor and the american way.

Posted by: guest at May 14, 2008 10:58 AM

The general problem is not bars or strollers, it's the way people behave. "I'm right, everyone else is stupid, f you, I'll scream outside your window at 4AM because i want to, my taste is good yours is bad, my neighborhood is great yours is a slum" from Biff to What. And blogs, cell phones, regulating people to death about smoking and where there can be bars seem to just be lowering the quality of interaction and thoughtfulness. I guess most people think this is just about right. Whatever, just a thought.

Posted by: guest at May 14, 2008 11:16 AM

This makes so much sense because nobody gets loud and drunk by drinking beer and wine.

And speaking of loud and whine, can we close the playground I here from my house? Clearly the city government's job is to keep it quiet outside my window so let's get them to get these noisy kids out of my hearing range.

Posted by: guest at May 14, 2008 11:30 AM

"The two "over-saturation" examples Perris gave were Atlantic Avenue near Henry Street in Brooklyn Heights (Brazen Head, Floyd, Last Exit, Magnetic Field, Montero's, Waterfront Ale House)"

I don't know, yes there's a strip along atlantic, but i would hardly describe it as oversaturated. there are 3.5 long blocks between brazen head & montero, and a total of 5 operating bars (are there more?). according to hopstop that's .35 of a mile, 1848 feet... meaning (on average) between the 5 bars have 470 feet between them. how does this stack up against the SLA regulations?

correct me if i'm wrong (i could be) but i don't think an area qualifies for oversaturation until there are more than 3 bars within any given 500-foot radius. but maybe i am misunderstanding that guideline.

i think the situation along atlantic is being soemwhat overstated.

Posted by: guest at May 14, 2008 11:57 AM

"The general problem is not bars or strollers, it's the way people behave."

completely agree. drinkers need to keep it down, and people living on atlantic avenue need to learn to accept some degree/occasion of noise. we've got to co-exist in this city.

Posted by: guest at May 14, 2008 12:00 PM

The Atlantic Avenue "over saturation" is ludicrous. This is NOT a residential street (despite a few new developments) and AFAIK these places don't have outdoor spaces that make noise for State and Pacific Streets. How can a few smokers talking loud outside of a bar compete with the huge numbers of 18 wheelers that come off the BQE on their trek into Inner Brooklyn? This end of Atlantic has always been a home for longshoremen's bars (e.g. Montero's). Seriously, there are any number of more important quality of life issues to deal with than appeasing the maybe 1 person who has loudly complained to CB2.

Posted by: guest at May 14, 2008 12:05 PM

More hilarity from Brooklyn's community boards. First, the nutjobs in Park Slope that want to shut down Union Hall, now a CB member in Brooklyn Heights making an ass out of himself.

Does it ever occur to these cranks that people move to these neighborhoods because these bars exist. Far from devaluaing property, they help make the neighborhood more attractive.

That being said, of course everyone can be more considerate. But bars really can't do much about patrons who choose to be loud when leaving late at night/early in the morning.

Sorry, but, if you choose to live above or next to a bar, then you have to put up with the noise. No one is forcing you to live there.

Posted by: guest at May 14, 2008 12:58 PM

My apartment in on the 2nd floor, with windows over Atlantic Ave bet Clinton & Henry. I'm directly across the street from Floyd and next to Last Exit. I've lived here for 11 years - years before either of those places existed. 90% of the time there is no problem. There is quite a bit of noise when the weather gets warm but as long as it quiets down by midnight I don't mind and I don't complain. The other 10% of the time is a nightmare. There are nights when at 3am there are still drunks outside one or both of those bars that won't STFU and we are awakened by them even when the windows are closed. Now.. is it the bar's fault that some of their patrons are a**holes? Not exactly. But... if the bar would stop serving the drunk idiots at midnight the problem would be solved. The fact is that any time I have called Last Exit or Floyd in the middle of the night to ask them if they could please ask their patrons to keep their voices down when they go outside to smoke (and I am a smoker, so I certainly understand where they are coming from), or to lower the music they are blasting themselves - with their doors wide open, I have been met with nothing but hostility and attitude. That leaves me no choice but to ignore the problem (not going to happen) or call 311 and/or the local precinct to file a noise complaint, which is what I end up doing. Do I call the cops every night or even every week? No - but every few weeks it happens and if the bar owners won't take responsibility for the actions of their customers (or the volume of their own music) then I am going to keep calling the cops every time it happens and eventually the bar is going to find that their liquor license isn't being renewed. I know I am not the only one complaining because on nights when it's really bad I have been told by the cop answering the phone that they've received several calls already and already dispatched a car.

if you don't live here you just don't know what you are talking about, but if all this noise is really ok with you, please post your address and let me know which window is yours so I can stand underneath it a few times a month and demonstrate what it's like for you. I promise you'll start to mind.

Posted by: guest at May 14, 2008 2:12 PM

11:57, the law doesn't distinguish between bars and other places that have licenses. There are 13 full liquor licenses between Montero's and the Brazen Head -- cask ales this weekend! -- plus 1 "Restaurant Wine" and 1 "Restaurant Liquor" license.

Posted by: guest at May 14, 2008 2:13 PM

I'm with guest at 2:13..just further up the block next to the lately and totally unlamented Magnetic Field whose going away gift to my building was a pool of puke on the front steps. What a bunch of losers.

Posted by: guest at May 14, 2008 3:14 PM

2:12 do you pay $3,500 a month for your apartment?

Posted by: guest at May 14, 2008 3:17 PM

I heard a rumor that MF may open back up next week.

Posted by: guest at May 14, 2008 4:09 PM

"I've lived here for 11 years - years before either of those places existed."

Hmmm, interesting comment considering that Last Exit opened up 11 years ago this year. Perhaps you beat it by a few months, or perhaps it was still Pete's when you moved in.

While I sympathize with you having to put up with idiots 10 percent of the time, I agree with the earlier comment that you are not obligated to live above a bar. That's your choice.

I happen to live above the BQE and it's very loud. I am awakened every night by trucks hitting some sort of depression in the road. But guess what, I pay cheaper rent to live there, just like I'm sure your rent or mortgage is chepaer due to its location on a commercial strip.

And your comment about bars not serving people who are drunk after midnight is just completely unrealistic. It's an arbitrary rule you would like to see enacted to suit your needs. It's also not economically feasible for a bar. Also, it's hardly Floyd's or Last Exit's responsibility if people show up drunk already from other bars and are making noise. There is little they can do about this, and does it happen often.

Posted by: guest at May 14, 2008 4:36 PM

3:17 - i don't rent. I own.

4:36 - i don't live above a bar and no bar was next door when I bought. The building next door is LICH medical offices. Pete's Waterfront is across the street (and has none of the problems Last Exit and Floyd have). Last Exit opened about a year after we moved in if I recall correctly. They have a backyard space which has a residential noise curfew. The same curfew should apply to the bench they park outside their front door. The midnight rule isn't an arbitrary rule for the bar to implement - it's one of the things the liqueur licensing board has made a condition for renewing other licenses at other places all over NYC and I think it's a good idea. I have no interest in closing any place down, but finding a happy medium benefits everyone. A business has an obligation to respect its neighbors just like the rest of civilized society. I don't doubt they love the neighborhood as much as we do - but we clearly have more respect for it than they do.

Posted by: guest at May 14, 2008 5:00 PM

2:12/5:00, I sympathize with you and your suggestions are reasonable. Notwithstanding that, the proposal from CB2 is loony. If bars can't be on a commercial strip like this, then where exactly do they propose them to be? Now if they answer "Exactly - nowhere!" well, too bad for those kill-joys, they need to stop micromanaging others' lives.

Posted by: guest at May 14, 2008 5:13 PM

@5:00 - You really think it's feasible for a bar to stop serving at midnight? That's not a happy medium, that's called Connecticut.

But again, you chose to live on a commercial strip. I'm sure your mortgage and the price you paid was exceptionally cheap because of it. 11 years ago you could have gotten a two bedroom on a very quiet block in Cobble Hill for under $300K.

I also am starting to question the truthfulness of your post about the timeline in which you moved there. Last Exit was Pete's before it moved across the street. If you lived in the neighborhood 11 years you would know that.

Posted by: guest at May 14, 2008 5:29 PM

All these comments defending how great bars are and how they improve property values and quality of life are just weird. Who do you think objects to a whole bunch of bars in a row? Why, the people who LIVE near them, of course. You know, the same folks who drive up property values and defend their quality of life through legal channels such as 311 and Community Boards.

Bars are typically found in non-residential areas because it appears that nobody really wants to live near a bunch of bars. How do bars, then, drive up property values and improve quality of life?

One bar makes a nice addition to a streetscape and neighborhood. Two, perhaps also. Many in a row makes a frat party. People who defend property values and quality of life are not interested in frat parties. Hence, the attempt to restrict permits. No one is trying to implement Prohibition.

Posted by: guest at May 14, 2008 5:38 PM

To 5PM: As a bar owner I can tell you that if we were forced to stop serving at midnight we would go out of business. Also, there would be no need for a bench out front of Last Exit -- nor would there be nearly as much noise in front of most bars -- if it wasn't for the smoking ban. I am not saying the ban was good or bad, just that it resulted in more noise. My bar never had any complaints from our neighbors until our customers had to go outside to smoke.

To 5:38: If you could go back in time to the '70s and '80s you would see how awful and unsafe strips like Atlantic Avenue, Fifth Avenue and Smith Street were. What changed them? The opening of bars and restaurants.

Regardless the main point that many seem to be missing is that Union Hall violated no laws, and has no violations against them, but yet are under threat of being shut-down thus setting a scary precedence which would ultimately change the face of the city we all love.

Posted by: guest at May 14, 2008 5:56 PM

@5:38: Is that a serious question?

Brooklyn has become more desirable primarily because of the rapid evolution of a bar and restaurant scene. If you had lived here or visited here in the 80s you would know that.

Posted by: guest at May 14, 2008 6:02 PM

@ 5:29 - Why on earth would I lie about when I moved here? My recollection about when Last Exit opened and what might have been there before may be off by a year in either direction but what difference does that make? I don't remember anything of note being in that spot when we moved in. Then again, it was 11 years ago. I'm pushing 40 so pardon me if my memory isn't what it used to be. How does the exact date of when Last Exit opened matter at all? I have dinner in Pete's once or twice a month and have for as long as I can remember. If they were ever across the street, I definitely don't remember it. Maybe that's because they were good neighbors and didn't make a lot of noise? (as they still are and still don't) The Last Exit space is pretty tiny and there's no kitchen so if Pete's was there I assume it was a bar-only and not a bar/restaurant as it currently is. So again, if it was just a bar, it was a pretty quiet bar that I never had any reason to pay attention to.

I have no wish for any of these places to be shut down and I'm glad Atlantic Ave is abuzz in ways we could only hope for when we bought this apartment. Any business that wants to be on this stretch of Atlantic is welcome with open arms IF they are willing to be good neighbors. If they don't care about the people who live and work around them, then THEY should be the ones to leave, not those of us who think about people other than ourselves. All most of us want is a compromise between the "F-You" attitude some of these bars have and the "Shut them down" demands from the unreasonable fringe. We can all peacefully coexist if there are compromises but the residents can't be the only ones who give in every time.

FWIW, I completely agree about the smoking ban being partially responsible. There were fewer reasons for drunken idiots to be outside screaming at each other when they could smoke at the bar. I disagree that stopping the tap from flowing at 12 or 1am would put these bars out of business. The same was said of the smoking ban, in fact, and clearly that didn't happen. All that's really needed, however, is for bar owners and bartenders to stop ignoring the issue and actually make an an effort to keep their customers from pissing off the neighbors.

As for Union Hall, I don't live near it so I have no idea what's going on there or what should be done about it. Unlike many of you, I won't mouth off about issues that I don't have specific knowledge of.

Posted by: guest at May 14, 2008 10:46 PM

Having lived in that area of Brooklyn for many years, i can tell you that the betterment of the neighborhood did not come about because of bars. there were always lots of antique stores, some art galleries and great food places, with maybe one or 2 bars. those businesses, and the proximity to Manhattan and public transportation are what improved the neighborhood. Not the coming of the bars. As for telling someone to put up or shut up since they chose to live on a commercial strip- Atlantic Ave. is a commercial strip within a residential neighborhood (2 residential neighborhoods in fact.) It was residential first, and most of the businesses were geared toward residential services and goods. there were neighborhood bars but nightlife as it seems to have evolved today is an outcome of the neighborhoods improving, not the other way around.

when bars and nightclubs open in strictly commercial areas, then yes, they can improve it (or at least change it to a more citizen friendly area) but in places like the Heights and the Slope, trendy bars and restaurants were not the vanguard, they came after because they followed the more monied clientèle. And I guess it comes to what you really mean when you say "improved the neighborhood." Loud music, loud people and drunks are not improvements in my book.

Posted by: guest at May 15, 2008 1:03 AM

I also live pretty much under the BQE in Williamsburg. My two bedroom apt is pretty much half what it should be. When I open my windows, there is a constant hum of cars that go by, and the trucks make alot more noise. Should I call 311 and see if they can shut down the BQE? I think the 10s of 1000s of people who use it everyday should be inconvenienced so i can get an extra 5 minutes of sleep.

I mean, i saw it before i moved in, but i had no idea what happened there!!

Posted by: guest at May 15, 2008 1:59 AM

Sorry @ 1:03, I couldn't disagree more. As someone who was here when there were only a couple of bars, I can tell you that many people started flowing into these neighborhoods after the bars and restaurants started opening. Mind you, that hasn't been great for me as I'm just about priced out at this point, and that doesn't make me happy as someone who has been here well over a decade.

And to the other poster, shutting down the taps at midnight is completely unreasonable. Bars weren't in business selling cigarettes before, so your analogy doesn't work here. And please stop with this attitude that you care more about the neighborhood more than the people who frequent these bars or own them. Did you know the owners of Last Exit and Magnetic Field grew up in the neighborhood? They aren't transplants, and they certainly can't be accused by anyone who knows them of not caring about the quality of life in the area.

It sounds to me like you want all of the conveniences of the city without the drawbacks, one of which is noise from bars on commercial strips. It's always strange to me that people choose to live an urban environment and then complain about the vagaries that come along with it.

Posted by: guest at May 15, 2008 9:35 AM

"those kill-joys ... need to stop micromanaging others' lives" -- isn't that what the City Charter and the Alcoholic Beverage Control Law CHARGES them with doing?

Posted by: guest at May 15, 2008 11:00 AM

To10:46 PM:

If you don't own a bar how can you even understand or "mouth off" about what cutting out 3+ hours of business a night would do to us?

Regardless, Union Hall won the war last night, so that is that!!!

-Bar Owner

Posted by: guest at May 15, 2008 11:35 AM

Smoke more weeed!

Posted by: guest at May 15, 2008 1:00 PM

I have to jump in here. I live about Monteros and I LOVE the place. They are a real neighborhood place, and their patrons do not make too much noise. However, on my way home from work one evening at about 11PM I watched a man in front of Floyd bend over to pick something up off the floor and fall directly on his forehead in front of me. I almost tripped over him. The noise is head made when he hit the pavement was alarming, and his friends nearby laughed. This is the kind of prehistoric behavior that usually leads to upset neighbors, and the puking on doorsteps (which by the way NEVER with maybe the exception of New Year's happens at Monteros) is just wrong. I have never really had a problem walking past MF or Chip Shop or Pete's so I think we are talking about a particular population here. Finally, I just want to add that the law is different everywhere, but there IS a responsibility on the bartenders part NOT to serve already drunk people. I have had to cut drunk people off, and it is not fun, but BOTH parties have to be responsible.

Posted by: guest at June 23, 2008 2:47 PM