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May 1, 2008
City Envisions Hard Rock Cafe, Bliss Spa in Coney
The city says Thor Equities founder Joe Sitt, as primarily a shopping center developer, isn't qualified to operate Coney Island's amusement park. Now, apparently they don't think he's qualified to choose retail, either. Under the city's recently-released compromise plan, Sitt would be asked to hand over 6 of the 11 acres he owns within the amusement district, according to Thor spokesman Stefan Friedman. Sitt could build high-rise hotels and retail on the his remaining five acres south of Surf Avenue, between the aquarium and KeySpan Park, as long as there's no stores like The Gap and Bed, Bath and Beyond. We received a draft proposal a source said outlines examples of retail the city envisions for the indoor portion of the amusement district: Hard Rock Cafe, Knitting Factory, AMC cinemas, Virgin Records, ESPN Zone, Madame Tussauds, Bliss spa, tattoo parlors, a clothing store "such as Lola Staar," and jet ski rentals, amongst others. Some of those items were mentioned in New York Observer article this week about retail remaining a sticking point between the two warring parties. Hear what Thor thinks on the jump...
Thor thinks there needs to be residential retail within the amusement district as well. Friedman told us, "We feel that there has to be some standard commercial retail—retail that actually caters to the community where it is located rather than to a Manhattan-centric clientele—in order for this plan to work." A city spokesman responded, "Conventional mall layouts in the amusement district are not consistent with the Coney Island that we believe people will flock to. However, there is great opportunity for general retail, large stores and malls nearby in Coney West and Coney North (outside of the amusement district).” And local activist Dianna Carlin said she's lost faith in both of them. "The thing that's always made Coney Island unique is the independant entrepreneurs who have come to Coney Island and realized their dreams," said Carlin, who also owns Lola Staar. As for all those national chains suggested by the city, she said, "That's not the spirit of Coney Island."
Another issue that hasn't really been explored is the viability of certain types of retail. In the draft provided to us, other than jet ski rentals, the city mentions renting bikes, wind surfing, scuba gear and umbrellas. The Parks Department solicited retailers for the beach in 2006 and 2007 but "did not receive any bidders despite our best outreach and advertising efforts," said Parks Department spokesman Phil Abramson. "If I recall correctly the language of the RFP specified 'renting or operating jet skis will not be permitted.' It did seek out stuff like a ropes course, a rock climbing wall and trampolines on the beach. We also said we'd consider water sports proposals such as banana boat rides or parasailing." It's a total mystery why no one was interested in setting up shop within this beach that gets 8 million visitors every summer, one of the most visited city parks in the country (that is, except for the lady who sells jungle juice out of her cooler). Care to take a stab at it?
City’s Coney Island Design Revised to Break Deadlock [NY Times]
City, Thor Argue Over Retail [NY Observer]
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Comments
The problem with Coney Island is safety. No amusement park developer will ever agree to develop the amusement park district unless it can be a closed, gated park with controllled entrances and exits.
Walt Disney specifically opted for this design with Disney Land because of the crowed control problems at the '64 Worlds Fair and the rising crime problem at Coney Island in the 1960s.
The EDC refuses to allow this, and making it parkland legally requires it to be opened to the public.
The problem is the people at the EDC are blinded by ideology and are unwilling to learn about the amusement park industry. What is so comical is pretty much everything done in the industry today is the direct result of looking at what happened to Coney Island.
Posted by: Polemicist at May 1, 2008 10:32 AM
Hard Rock Cafe, Toussaud's, ESPN Zone..... How about a few places for locals?
Posted by: guest at May 1, 2008 11:49 AM
This is just comical. First off, the comment from the industry know-it-all is true, but misses the point entirely. Even gated amusment parks can have plenty of problems- I know the one near where I grew up would have fights every weekend. The key is to preserve the spirit of Coney without making it into another bland semi-public space. With the types of businesses they are trying to attract, who do you think it going to go there? Do you take your kids to Times Square to have fun? I don't.
The second comment hits it right on the head. These people are seeing tourist dollars. It's not being envisioned for us at all.
Posted by: guest at May 1, 2008 12:05 PM
Without reading all the detailed comments, I'm all for the vision so long as they preserve and develop around the vintage architecture.
In time, the area would be no more dangerous than Times Square. I think Times Square is kinda cool too by the way. Touristy but not bad for an occasional drive-thru or hangout.
Posted by: guest at May 1, 2008 12:36 PM
Time square in coney island would really suck!!!!!
This is horrible news.
Posted by: guest at May 1, 2008 1:05 PM
Jet ski??!!??
No thanks. I like my sewage in my toilet, not in my mouth.
Posted by: guest at May 1, 2008 1:14 PM
12:05
I actually know quite a bit about the amusement park industry, and have done market studies for the industry firms in the past. So, please - your pejorative label is quite misplaced. What do you know of amusement industry economics and operation? Please - share your knowledge with us.
At the very least, why don't you name for us the amusement park near your hometown? (my money is on the midwest, btw)
If you go to any six flags park, or something like Hershey Park and even jump a line they will throw you out. Safety is of paramount concern at any successful, modern amusement park.
You can't have your cake and eat it too - this is the problem. The city (and people like you) want to attract amusement park businesses, but the conditions they impose drive away the developers and operators who could actually build something you want. Instead, they are just going to make a mall and lease individual units to entertainment retailers.
12:36
The Wonderwheel, the parachute drop, and the cyclone are landmarked. There is no other "vintage" anything. Your wish has already been granted.
For anyone who is interested in amusement park economics, there is a great book out there - Walt's Revolution: By the Numbers by Harrison Price. If you really care about this issue, you'll learn a lot by reading that book.
Posted by: Polemicist at May 1, 2008 1:35 PM
Given the vast numbers of people bobbing in the water at Coney Island, jetskis would be a major safety problem. Especially considering the kind of person who would want to rent a jetski at Coney Island (I'm envisioning someone wanting to show off, reckless, and possibly drunk). Not to mention the noise that would diminish the beach experience for the rest of us. Think of motorcycle rentals in Central Park on a summer weekend.
Posted by: guest at May 1, 2008 2:33 PM
Jet skis rentals are a really bad idea.
guest at 1:14 PM said it quite well.
Posted by: guest at May 1, 2008 2:45 PM
The city must be thinking of places like Niagra Falls or Lake George or Wildwood. I don't think anyone is thinking of Disney Land or Six Flags.
I go to Coney Island all the time. I love the beach and the boardwalk but the attractions could really an upgrade. The new public bathrooms are cleaner than the ones you pay a quater to use at Dinos. Why do you say safety is a concern? I've never had or seen any problems there. Whatever it becomes has to appeal to the people who live near there and not charge $50 just to get in. A day at Six Flags with a couple of kids will really set you back. I like that I can take the kids to the beach, spend $10 bucks on a few rounds of the tilta-whirl, walk the boardwalk and go home on the subway.
Posted by: guest at May 1, 2008 3:41 PM
Polemicist,
I wasn't calling you a know-it-all because I believe you don't, in fact, know what you're talking about. I do, in fact, believe you do know a lot about amusement parks.
I just don't agree with you, nor do I think your vision of what an amusement park should be like is apt for Coney. Regardless of the mistakes that have been made in the past, I find it not only far-fetched, but painful to think about Coney Island being fenced off.
And since you asked, the violent amusement park in question is Paramount's Great America, formerly Marriot's Great America in San Jose, California. Open up your pocket amusement-park leger and check out the indidence of violence reports any time in the late 80's, early 90's. That's when I was going there.
I love how when commentators on this site disagree with someone they assume they're from the midwest. What a dolt!
Posted by: guest at May 1, 2008 3:57 PM
"Hard Rock Cafe, Toussaud's, ESPN Zone..... How about a few places for locals?"
The majority of the people that eat at the applebees by Dekalb are locals.
Locals love this shit.
Posted by: guest at May 1, 2008 6:06 PM
I wanna be able to shoot the jerk not see some jerk-off on a jet ski. Please don't bring midwestern bland crap culture to Coney.
Posted by: guest at May 1, 2008 6:08 PM
6:06 -- Shit is right. How about a Red Lobster, Ruby Tuesday, and TGIF's too? The best would be friggin Bubba Gump. You'd have the ocean/seafood tie-in. Homogenous crap all of it.
Posted by: guest at May 1, 2008 6:11 PM
Hey 10:32, you are real uh erudite. Thanks for teacching us all about the one-hell-of-a-human being, Walt Disney.
Posted by: guest at May 1, 2008 6:16 PM
Two quotes lifted directly from Polemicist:
"Walt Disney specifically opted for this design with Disney Land because of the crowed control problems at the '64 Worlds Fair and the rising crime problem at Coney Island in the 1960s."
"I actually know quite a bit about the amusement park industry, and have done market studies for the industry firms in the past."
Um, Polemicist, Disneyland opened in 1955, so that kinda sinks your claim that Walt was takin' notes and planning his park from events that occurred at the '64 worlds fair.
Posted by: guest at May 1, 2008 9:21 PM
why are the powers that be so intent on sucking the heart and soul and character out of Coney Island? yea, go ahead and remake it into Times Square by the Seashore with all those chain stores like you find everywhere else in America. Then why would anybody want to go there? I don't get it
Posted by: guest at May 1, 2008 10:48 PM
If I had to decide between Joe Sitt developing Coney Island or the City, I would choose the City in a New York second.
Posted by: guest at May 1, 2008 11:13 PM
9:21 - Disney World, sorry.
Read the book I mentioned.
Posted by: Polemicist at May 2, 2008 10:10 AM
jetskis are a midwestern thing?
Jersey boys eat that shit up.
Posted by: guest at May 2, 2008 10:19 AM
10:19 = douchebag
Posted by: guest at May 2, 2008 11:24 AM
It is illegal to use Jet Skis on city property i.e. beaches. These are horrible fuel spewing, wasteful watercraft. Just another example of City politics run amok. Perhaps the "jet ski" manufacturer is one of those special interest groups that Ms. Quinn's colleagues have already set up a fund for??
Posted by: guest at May 4, 2008 6:27 PM
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