Strong Showing for 49 Rutland Road

Let's see. 1,450,000 Sales price

Down payment 290,000. Closing cost @ 3% 43500. Leaves us with 1117000.

Result:
Monthly payment: 30 Years
Interest rate: 7.750%
Loan amount: $ 1,117,000.00

$ 8,002.32 a month

Plus add expenses Insurance, Light & Gas. and Miscellaneous. About 9000k a month/

Is this a 2 Family? How much rent I can get for a 2 Bedroom apartment in this neighborhood? Let's say 2000.00 a month. So our monthly nut is north of 7000.00.

Now lets use traditional lending guidelines of 35/41 (Really 25/31) but for the sake of sake.

You have to earn 25,714 a month or 308,571 a year. Now may I ask this question. If you was earring this amount of money, why in the hell you want to live there?! Why would you buy into a "Marginal" neighborhood? I have one answer.....

Cognitive dissonance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

Cognitive dissonance is a psychological state that describes the uncomfortable feeling when a person begins to understand that something the person believes to be true is, in fact, not true.

I rest my case.

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 11:53 AM

Sounds like a deal to me, when those costs would be double in the prime neighborhoods.

I'm 31 and make 150K a year as does my fiance. That's 300k a year.

And we are looking for a house in PLG.

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 11:57 AM

Maybe "The What's" credit rating gives him a 7.75% interest rate, but no one else I know is that high.

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 11:57 AM

You assume the down payment and the interest rate, What. You have no idea what the facts are, but I am sure you too suffer from cognitive dissonance.

btw, the sales price is $1.425 million. Obviously, you can't be trusted with numbers.

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 11:59 AM

This means nothing until a closing occurs and price is recorded.

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 12:00 PM

"Maybe "The What's" credit rating gives him a 7.75% interest rate, but no one else I know is that high."

Try to get a Jumbo under that! I think their in the 8's.

"Hey What, didn't Stoner say you could use your username again. What gives?"

Username no worky. IP Address no worky, The What likes to worky.

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 12:01 PM

We are looking for a place also in this area. We will be selling our Manhattan 2 bedroom in the hope of finding more space for our growing family. We expect to make about 900K from the sale of our 2 bedroom.

You didn't factor that in 11:53.

Those who are selling in Manhattan and moving to Brooklyn as it seems like a lot of our friends are doing these days.

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 12:04 PM

"You assume the down payment and the interest rate, What. You have no idea what the facts are, but I am sure you too suffer from cognitive dissonance.

btw, the sales price is $1.425 million. Obviously, you can't be trusted with numbers."

In this lending environment, There are no more 100%, 95%, 90% Jumbo loans no more.

If you want 85% LTV you need a Fico north of 680. Everything is 80% unless it's FHA Fannie Mae of Freddy Mac. I hope this clear clears up any confusion.

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 12:05 PM

Yet again, What, you don't address the issues but dance around them. Using your own numbers, which are incorrect, makes assumption on the sale which you see as fact.

Please stay on the medication and continue taking those GED courses.

Some day, you will know how to read......

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 12:10 PM

They could have put more % dow asshats.

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 12:15 PM

They could have put more % down asshats.

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 12:15 PM

NO ONE buying a 1.425 million property is not SELLING another property.

Which you have CONVENIENTLY left off your calculations, the What.

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 12:15 PM

Enough with the What. Let's not let him distract us. Though everybody is right The What always assumes everybody only has 20% down payment in his little calculations he's always so proud to share with us. Guess that's all people can offer in cash in Lodi NJ where he lives. There sure aren't any 2 BR starter apartments offering 6-figure profits there, to help a buyer trade up.

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 12:17 PM

New Jersey is suffering its most severe housing collapse as we speak right now. Prices have fallen 15-20% and are expected to continue their decline into 2009. Prices will not hit 2005 levels again until approximately 2030.

That combined with oil prices expected to reach $7 a gallon within 3 years and you can kinda see why the What has decided to troll Brownstoner.

Oh and did I mention that NJ is in effect bankrupt? You might get a deal on a house but be prepared to shell out 20K a year for taxes, which are only goin up.

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 12:21 PM

It's a nice big house with good layout that's both open and modern yet original to the house, with unique details. But it had some issues and most of all they sold so close to asking because of the good representation, persistence, hard work and marketing from the broker. (I'm not her nor work with her). She did an awesome job. Congrats to both the sellers and the buyers and welcome to the neighborhood!

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 12:26 PM

Let's see. I stated available information. The metrics I used is assumption. Now if some one has to sell their properly before they buy this one, can they afford it? I used the bare essentials in coming up with these figures.

I love how everyone jumps on me! It makes me feel good that I getting under your skin without cursing!

"You've hardly got much of a case to rest--obviously people who can afford this amount DO find LM/PLG attractive (not that I could afford that amount, but then I'm a beneficiary of Everet Ortner's "schoolteachers' coup" like many others who bought in the '60s and '70s)"

Uh Bob, I hope you are no counting on your "investment" for retirement.

"Enough with the What. Let's not let him distract us. Though everybody is right The What always assumes everybody only has 20% down payment in his little calculations he's always so proud to share with us. Guess that's all people can offer in cash in Lodi NJ where he lives. There sure aren't any 2 BR starter apartments offering 6-figure profits there, to help a buyer trade up."

YOU SEE!!! This is why I go off. Save your juvenile crap for the kiddies in the park! I ran the figures, how do you know they CAN afford it.

The What (OM... OM.... OM.....)

Someday this war is gonna end....

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 12:31 PM

This is excellent news for the neighborhood. Excellent news for Brooklyn. And excellent news for the overall health of the Brooklyn real estate market.

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 12:31 PM

"New Jersey is suffering its most severe housing collapse as we speak right now. Prices have fallen 15-20% and are expected to continue their decline into 2009. Prices will not hit 2005 levels again until approximately 2030."

So this phenomena only happens in NJ? It never will happen in Brooklyn right? So NJ is contained, right! I think your computer monitor is too small, let me help you out.

Cognitive dissonance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

Cognitive dissonance is a psychological state that describes the uncomfortable feeling when a person begins to understand that something the person believes to be true is, in fact, not true.

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 12:35 PM

You go off, What, because people call you on your errors and mistakes and you simply can't handle that you may be making assumptions that are not based on reality.

Now go back to work, whatever that actually is.

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 12:36 PM

Is it me, or is this a really bizarre cheerleading post from Brownstoner? I mean, whatever happened to "Open Houses...6 months later"? We're reduced to, "Yay, one house in all of Brooklyn sold sort of near ask."

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 12:37 PM

I think it's just because there was such debate over this house before, 12:37. And everyone has been asking for follow-up stories on HOTD's.

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 12:40 PM

The What said:

"I love how everyone jumps on me! It makes me feel good that I getting under your skin without cursing!"

It's actually SO easy to get under the skin of people on internet blogs it's not even funny or worth saying. I could post retarded things and get people worked up too. I wouldn't put it on my resume like you apparently do, though.

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 12:43 PM

Que my theme music... I was reading this story and I said to myself. Self people can't go broke in "Rich Neighborhoods". No it only happens in NJ.

TROUBLE IN LI PARADISE

http://www.nypost.com/seven/05122008/news/regionalnews/trouble_in_li_paradise_110497.htm

"Homeowners in the some of the toniest ZIP codes in the Hamptons are facing a frightening reality - they can't afford to foot the bill for their high-priced homes, The Post has learned."

Wow, wait a minute. I heard this before.... Wait it's coming to me...

Hold on! These people make plenty of money!

* Janice Becker, a regular on the Southampton village social circuit, is facing foreclosure on her multimillion-dollar Wyandanch Lane property.

* Advertising veteran Ransel Potter is defaulting on a $1.8 million mortgage on an Amagansett parcel.

* Real-estate honcho John Conroy is in lis pendens for a $3.5 million mortgage on a Bridgehampton spread on West Pond Drive.

* Former UBS executive Marc Warren is in lis pendens on a $1 million mortgage for a Mitchells Lane pad in Bridgehampton.

* Investor Roger Thanhauser is trying to sell a home on Main Street in East Hampton village to avoid foreclosure.

Yep! Yep! Yep! This is fun!

The What (But.. They told me it was different)

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 12:44 PM

The house at 72 Rutland Road that many people condemned for poor staging also recently closed.
Not sure of the price, but I think the last asking was $1.15, a big drop from the unrealistic $1.5 they started at.

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 12:47 PM

"So this phenomena only happens in NJ? It never will happen in Brooklyn right?"

New York City...or the bulk of it is an island. There is very little room to develop in NYC, and there is plenty of room in New Jersey in comparison. Brooklyn prices will fall, but not as much as they will/are in New Jersey.

Suburban living is becoming less and less desireable.

And if Brooklyn becomes cheaper, those people who moved to the burbs...which even you have to admit, MANY PEOPLE were priced out of NYC and headed to Jersey in the 90's...they might consider coming back.

I know 3 who already have.

NYC prices coming down can only have a net positive on the city in the long run.

New York is increasingly separating itself from the rest of the U.S. As the U.S. becomes even more closed to the rest of the world, the only place that really seems to want to stay open is NYC.

And that's why people want to live here.

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 12:48 PM

Not only are people who went to the suburbs hating it and coming back, we know two couples who tried Queens and now want to come back to Brooklyn. I'm not being a basher, I think Queens is great and has some cool housing stock. I'm just describing these friends' experiences.

Has The What been allowed to return because he helps drive up numbers of posts? I don't get why he's here again.

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 12:58 PM

Does anyone else find it rather appalling now seeing that the What can in fact write in coherent sentences (and not only ebonics...excuse the un politically correct term) and before you would have thought he had a 3rd grade education??

Do you admire Paris Hilton, The What?

Find it "cool" to talk down and make yourself seem ignorant??

I find that to be a replulsive quality, personally.

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 1:02 PM

"Do you admire Paris Hilton, The What?"

Yeah, I hit it!

"Find it "cool" to talk down and make yourself seem ignorant??"

Well.. I don't have to "Talk Down".

"I find that to be a replulsive quality, personally."

Me too.

"Has The What been allowed to return because he helps drive up numbers of posts? I don't get why he's here again."

Nope, I must be on the ready! I think your belief systems are going to get tested!

The What (Stay on topic)

Someday this war is gonna end..

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 1:10 PM

meh

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 1:17 PM

My belief is that there is a lot more to life than real estate.

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 1:17 PM

Anybody have anything to say about the actual house instead of random Jersey rants?

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 1:21 PM

The house sold. For a great price.

That's all we need to know.

And that NJ sucks.

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 1:24 PM

This house is very big fish, little pond. There will always be people who want to be the ones with the detailed 4 story in the 3 story neighborhood rather than buying the 3 story across the park in the 4 story neighborhood. But just because you can find crappy 3 stories in PS for this price doesn't mean there going to start giving away 4 story houses on park blocks. And just because they found that buyer who wants to be the big fish doesn't mean PLG won't be among the neighborhoods that just didn't make it far enough in the run up to weather the impending storm.

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 1:32 PM

OMG, has the market gotten so bad that Brownstoner needs to celebrate the fact that a house actually went to contract for under the asking after 5 months????

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 1:36 PM

"Que my theme music..." ?
The What is illiterate, whether it's English, ebonics, or Spanish he's attempting to use.

In case you're not up to it in your GED studies:
Queue - is the correct spelling for the word meaning a line
Que - is Spanish
Cue - is the word for a musical or theatrical signal

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 1:47 PM

First off anybody who is moving a family from the upper west side to brooklyn is trading down and I dont think the people I know who live there would ever even consider Brooklyn. They are snobs and would move to the burbs first. If you moved from the UWS to Brooklyn you are in denial that you are moving the right way in life. Its supposed to be the other way around. You are supposed to move up and move from Brooklyn to the UWS. Schools in Brooklyn are horrible

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 2:00 PM

Sounds like a happy seller, a happy buyer, about 30 bitter whatevers, and one poser whose message is bigger than his writing skills.

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 2:08 PM

If you've made enough money selling your Manhattan apartment at bubble prices or if you have enough salary to cover the mortgage, of course you can afford to overpay for a Brooklyn house.

But the What is actually a little HIGH in his calculation of VALUE. If you assume 7% -- which I think is a low -- for mortgage and opportunity cost, add in maintenance and taxes and subtract out the maximum tax break (on the maximum deductible mortgage), after-tax costs of owning this place are about 13k/month.

Buying this house is economically equivalent to renting for about 13k/month. So the question is why it is worthwhile to spend that much to own EVEN IF YOU CAN AFFORD TO when you could rent an equally nice place for less.

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 2:19 PM

2:19 people think the prices can only go up and that is why the market is soo mispriced. everybody thinks they are going to be the next Donald Trump.

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 2:33 PM

2:19 and First Post have a very valid point. This and MANY other brownstones in the "prime" spots of BK are mathmaticly nightmares.

Rule of thumbs, as a rule... tend to suck... but heres one for you, if a building cant go revenue neutral inside ten years for ALL units (including your own), and simultaneously doesn't stand to gain significantly in value as an investment... its not worth it.

The very basis of our housing crash is people NOT following the above.

Now you can take The What's numbers and make them even more favorable, a split loan... or even some magical way of getting 6% for the whole thing... and even renting out all the units your still paying more on interest alone than comparable rent in the area, with a building whose real estate value is not likely to increase for a decade.

Obviously, PS is chock full of people with more money than fiscal responsibility... long term, the best fiscal position you can be in is to take minimum down payment, thro the rest into stocks/bonds, etc... and pay out intrest against some rental units. So while you could roll a Manhattan 2br sale into a new 600k mortgage, its fiscally a long term looser.

So then the question really becomes... if your looking for a place to be a little financially irresponsible with (which is fine for those who can afford it)... is PLG the place to do so? Or is this more of the same behavior weve seen thats led to our current crisis?

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 2:42 PM

"Buying this house is economically equivalent to renting for about 13k/month. So the question is why it is worthwhile to spend that much to own EVEN IF YOU CAN AFFORD TO when you could rent an equally nice place for less."

Good question. I think it's so that in 30 years, you are done paying for your house and so that at the age of 65, you aren't renting a place for 15K a month on a fixed income.

Ever heard of planning for the future, buddy?

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 2:59 PM

Brownstones, Limestones and the like are like diamonds, ferraris and Chanel handbags.

The people who can afford them and buy them do not do so out of mathematical equations, but because they want and love them.

Period.

They also happen to make great places to live and excellent places to raise a family and create memories.

Unlike those three things I mentioned above.

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 3:02 PM

3:02 I would rather skip the family and bang chicks on the hood of my Ferrari. The memories of banging chicks on the hood sounds much more appealing then raising screaming kids in narrow rooms.

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 3:10 PM

If you bang enuff chicks you will soon have some screaming kids in narrow rooms

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 3:13 PM

Well I am single and bang men in my brownstone. No kids to speak of unless medicine's got some fancy trick up it's sleeve I don't know about.

And I still like mine all the same.

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 3:18 PM

one thing is for sure, there is going to be a whole lot of sceaming

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 3:18 PM

OMG, has the market gotten so bad that Brownstoner needs to celebrate the fact that a house actually went to contract for under the asking after 5 months????

Excellent question and what happened to the 6 mths follow uo to HOTD?

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 3:25 PM

IF you sell a house/condo/co-op, one that you use as a primary residence, don't you have to re-invest the proceeds within a year or you get taxed on the gain from the sale? I thought you did.

If my understanding is correct, 2:42, you are not considering the tax cost of not putting your entire proceeds into your next home. If you only put the minimum down, you will have to pay taxes on the residual gain that is not re-invested. From a tax planning perspective, why would you want to have such a cash outflow AND end up with a monthly mortgage that is higher than renting? You take all the proceeds, re-invest in a bigger house and keep your monthly mortgage costs low.

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 4:11 PM

4:11, you are incorrect about the tax issue.
A married couple gets $500K capital gains tax-free and a single person gets $250K.
You don't have to buy another place.
It still could be a good plan to plow the ungodly profits into a new place, but not necessary to avoid the IRS

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 4:21 PM

This is a really bad example in this context:
Janice Becker, a regular on the Southampton village social circuit, is facing foreclosure on her multimillion-dollar Wyandanch Lane property.

* Advertising veteran Ransel Potter is defaulting on a $1.8 million mortgage on an Amagansett parcel.

* Real-estate honcho John Conroy is in lis pendens for a $3.5 million mortgage on a Bridgehampton spread on West Pond Drive.

* Former UBS executive Marc Warren is in lis pendens on a $1 million mortgage for a Mitchells Lane pad in Bridgehampton.

* Investor Roger Thanhauser is trying to sell a home on Main Street in East Hampton village to avoid foreclosure.

Yep! Yep! Yep! This is fun!"

All of those houses are not primary residences. They are second homes...summer houses...rich people's toys. I guess they bought some toys they thought they could afford. Now they are foreclosing.

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 4:22 PM

"if your looking for a place to be a little financially irresponsible with (which is fine for those who can afford it)... is PLG the place to do so? Or is this more of the same behavior weve seen thats led to our current crisis?"

No foreclosures in Lefferts Manor right now, sorry. And not many in the rest of PLG relative to other parts of Brooklyn.

My father owns a bank and the foreclosures "that led to our current crisis" are not happening in PLG. It's on 2nd and 3rd houses that were purchased as investments as 4:22 points out, and those foreclosing on primary residences are doing so in economically depressed areas where they can't sell the house quickly enough if need be to avoid foreclosure. Which is happening in Staten Island and way East in Brooklyn like Brownsville. Places where you can generally find a buyer within a few months, you should not be seeing foreclosures unless people are just doing stupid things and acting quickly enough to get help and sell.

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 4:43 PM

Thank you, 4:21. Very helpful. Haven't had the need to sell my first home so I never worried about it. Good to know though. Guess I need to keep up on the Tax Code some day.

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 5:02 PM

2:59 and 3:02 make a really good pair. First, you should overpay because that is "planning for the future" (as opposed, for example, to spending less on housing and investing the difference). Second, you should overpay because brownstones are not an investment at all, but consumption, like a fancy car.

2:59 needs to talk to a financial planner. Overpaying is not a form of planning for the future.

3:02 has it right: if you pay these prices you should be viewing your home as a form of consumption -- spending money on something you love without regard for how much it is going to cost you. Just like diamonds, you could get something much cheaper and quite similar (Zircon, rental), but you want to spend extra money for authenticity, pride of ownership, one-upsmanship or whatever. Just like a fancy car, it is going to depreciate the moment you buy it.

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 5:04 PM

"If you moved from the UWS to Brooklyn you are in denial that you are moving the right way in life. Its supposed to be the other way around. You are supposed to move up and move from Brooklyn to the UWS. Schools in Brooklyn are horrible."

Can't believe no one commented on this! Maybe you can't afford Manhattan - even with a 900k down payment, you may not get a bigger place. This couple wants space and community! Schools in Brooklyn being horrible is a huge generalization. Read the best public elementary schools in NYC - and you will see that there are tons of great schools in every hood - even bed-stuy!

P.S. I moved from Manhattan, a very nice neighborhood to Brooklyn and I have NO regrets! We could never afford want we have now, there. Quality of life is important to some of us!

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 5:06 PM

"Just like a fancy car, it is going to depreciate the moment you buy it."

Hasn't been the case with brownstones thus far, but I suppose it could happen...

I bought mine for 400K about 11 years ago, and I'd say it would go for around 2.8 or so in todays market.

Can you explain to me how that is depreciation oh wise one??

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 5:09 PM

4:43 I think you can count on people doing stupid things. Lots of Exotic mortgages have been taken out and people are depending on prices going up to survive. I sold my place to some guy who took out an interest only ARM before the credit crunch. Things like this will be holding the real estate market for years to come.

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 5:10 PM

We weren't commenting, 5:06 because that person was clearly a troll trying to get a reaction out of people.

I'd call your post a success.

If you gave me 10 million dollars tomorrow, I wouldn't leave Brooklyn.

That person clearly is 80 years old and hasn't been laid in a couple decades.

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 5:11 PM

On the tax issue, note that if you have a rental unit in the property, you need to treat that as a separate investment property. Investment properties are NOT eligible for the 250k/500k capital gains exemption.

For investment properties including rental units in your primary residence, you must pay your capital gains tax unless you do a "like kind exchange" which is basically a purely fictional tax shelter. Like kind exchanges require that the purchase and sale be within some limited time (18 months??) of each other and that the proceeds of the sale be held in escrow.

If you are thinking of doing this, consult a lawyer early on. Also your conscience. Patriots pay their taxes.

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 5:19 PM

As other posters have recognized, we can't assume the down payment made by the prospective buyers of 49 Rutland Rd, but odds are its well above 25%. If they can get their mortgage below $729K, then they aren't looking at a jumbo rate anymore. We just closed on a house--in PLG no less--with a rate of 6.25% with a loan amount that would have formerly been a jumbo.

As for this particular house, I went to the open house, it's a nice house and in move-in condition and it's on a great block.

PLG is an attractive area for people who are committed to being in the neighborhood long term. PLG is today what Prospect Heights was in 1997. Within 5-10 years, these PLG rowhouses will be the envy of everyone who is presently hating on this area. It's close to the park, the Botanic Garden, the museum, etc. Yes, Flatbush Ave has some issues, but north Flatbush Ave had issues too! (That Key Food on Flatbush and Sterling was too scary for words!) If you have the money to buy now, you best do it. Parks will ALWAYS command a premium in NYC sooner or later, get in while the getting is good.

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 5:23 PM

5:19: Thank you for the info

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 5:36 PM

I hate to say this, but I agree with The What. It is a beautiful house, but to spend $1.4M dollars/$8k+ a month in this location is crazy.

I realize that this house would be $3M in BH or PS, but to spend so much for this location seems really silly to me. There are some beautiful townhouses in Jersey City at far lower prices with good commutes to Manhattan. I realize that most of JC is a pit, but there is definitely better value there.

example: http://www.jerseyhomes.com/properties_detail.php?property_ID=45

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 5:56 PM

jersey is for suckers.

and the taxes are insanity.

whatever you save on home price, you'll make up for in taxes.

and to top it off, you have to tell people you live in jersey city.

hell no.

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 6:03 PM

@5:09. When you paid 400k, you weren't paying double the building's value to a rational investor or twice the cost of creating another one or twice the cost of comparable alternative housing. Someone who buys it from you at $2.8m will be.

In markets, prices tend to return to equilibrium. While the (recent) past is not a predictor of the future, over time anomalies tend to correct.

If 5:09 were a rational investor, s/he'd be selling now and finding an alternative investment with appreciation potential

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 6:10 PM

for all the naysayers, you could be right IF you are assuming the house isn't going to appreciate in value.
when the buyers sell this beautiful place for $2 plus million in a couple of years, all the chit-chat about how much they were putting out a month will sound pretty dumb.
don't think prices will rise over time? keep on renting.
you could be right. I think you're wrong

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 6:15 PM

that house in JC is beutiful. Im gonna have to go check that out.

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 6:20 PM

jc is a cesspool.

crime is out of control there.

Posted by: guest at May 12, 2008 8:06 PM

Why don't we just rename this blog WHITESTONER!

I literally read it, mostly, to see what sort of veiled and not so veiled racist drivel surfaces in the name of, I guess, "real estate"--does anybody remember that this country was founded on "real" estate-i.e., stolen land, and people who were considered property--and that this mentality has continued to fuel the American "way?" Yes, those are historical tendencies, although any reasonable American historian at a major research university would agree--Howard Zinn just cribbed from Edmund Morgan, hardly a radical--

But what about this: NYC is now the MOST segregated city in the entire United States.
Is this accidental?

"JC is a cesspool...crime is out of control there"

Just an exercise: rewrite that sentence between 1900-1950, and it would be about Jews, Italians, or the Irish.

Rewrite it now, and its about blacks and Latinos.

A "cesspool?" I've lived in JC before, and I have a friend who lives there--she's heavily involved in local activism--she's white, btw, an Ivy League grad, and her very wealthy parents have paid her mortgage. Jersey City is what NYC used to be--people of all races, hanging out, from wealthy to poor, etc. Parts of the city have higher crime, but my bike was stolen by the WHITE drug-dealing kids of a BROWNSTONE OWNER in Park Slope, where I live, last week.

The only other crime I've experienced in Brooklyn was also in the Slope: a white hipster-looking dude took my Ibook when my head was turned, then walked down the street with it. I jumped up and confronted him: he gave it back. In Jersey City, when I lived there, I dropped my wallet: somebody came running after me to give it back.

These aren't statistics, they're human stories.

If this really is about creating Whitestoners, then let's just call it that--but stop making these snide, thinly veiled (really not very veiled) racist comments and then pretending its "just reality." Umm, yeah, if you're Lyndon LaRouche.

Posted by: guest at May 13, 2008 9:31 AM

"PLG is today what Prospect Heights was in 1997. Within 5-10 years, these PLG rowhouses will be the envy of everyone who is presently hating on this area."

That is EXACTLY what everyone said when we almost bought there in 1999!!! Prices there were rising and lots of people were moving in from the Slope and everyone said that in 5 years it would be just like Park Slope. Now it is 9 years later--Park Slope has dramatically changed, as has most of brownstone Brooklyn. But PLG has not really changed at all, except for a coffee house and a restaurant. The "issues" in PLG are huge and simply will not change any time soon.

Posted by: guest at May 13, 2008 10:23 AM

10:23, You seem to have stayed in PLG. I wonder why????

Posted by: guest at May 13, 2008 10:56 AM

10:23, I live in PLG.
Please tell me what these huge issues are?
I moved in recently and have noticed positive changes just in the last few months.

Posted by: guest at May 13, 2008 11:09 AM

Anybody who bought in PLG in 1999 is happy as a clam.
Their house is worth 3 or 4 or 5 times what they paid for it, even in the current soft market.

Posted by: guest at May 13, 2008 11:28 AM

We chose PLG and don't regret it and are staying too, 10:56. The person at 10:23 just expresses many residents' frustration that the amenities have changed very slowly and much more slowly than some in the community said they would. But there's a very clear reason 10:23 did not see the changes in amenities before.

The community and the landlords were not very organized or effective before about attracting new businesses. Hopefully that's changing. But mostly because the demographics of the renters needed to change, not just the one-family houses in the area. Young singles are the ones to eat out and drink out all the time. Not families. Delivery is not the big cash cow for restaurants, liquor is.

Some here will point out some buildings are still RC on Flatbush. But low-income people need to live somewhere, and many of these residents are med students, nurses and hospital workers from nearby very large Kings Cty hospital & med school, or are teachers or civil servants and are decent people. Not everybody makes loads of money, even if they are educated and work hard.

There are plenty other buildings for new renters to come into the community and that change has been huge. We are able to see it over the period of only one year since coming here. Also there are at least 3 new condos being built (for better or for worse depending on folks' perspectives) on the park and the tall on on Lincoln. So anyway, long post short, if people sound more hopeful now it's because of changes in the non-brownstone residents, bringing more demographics and economic diversity to the consumers here.

Posted by: guest at May 13, 2008 11:32 AM

"Anybody who bought in PLG in 1999 is happy as a clam. Their house is worth 3 or 4 or 5 times what they paid for it, even in the current soft market."

Where do you get that?? We bought for 395K. We spent 150K renovating it, putting our investment at 550K. It is now worth 1M to a max of 1.2M. It's doubled, which is cool, but only a fraction of what we would have made if we bought elsewhere. And that answers the other question of why we haven't moved--can't afford to buy anywhere!!

All of the recent arrivals are still hopeful. That's sweet. But in 5 years you'll be singing a different tune. The issues go far beyond amenities and far harder to change.

Posted by: guest at May 13, 2008 11:44 AM

"It's doubled, which is cool, but only a fraction of what we would have made if we bought elsewhere."

Hi, new commenter here.

You debunk the 4x returns argument with actual numbers, so far so good, but then you perpetuate the same myths regarding elsewhere.

Can you provide comps to prove that it would have been a multiple of what you made, elsewhere?

Remember that cost of "elsewhere" was also a lot more back then, as they are now.

It's not like someone spent a total of $500k and are now sitting in a $2MM house.

More like they spent $800k, put another $200k into it, and are now sitting in a ~$2MM house.

Would love to see actual numbers, but I think that all anyone anywhere is looking at since 1999 is double the original value. (which is great..)

It's not like other neighborhoods were selling for same as yours and then jumped, or else you would have picked a house in one of those places (as Brooklyn Heights, Park Slope, Cobble Hill etc were pretty darn nice in 1999).

No?

Posted by: guest at May 13, 2008 12:47 PM

12:47, we looked at a large house in prime Ditmas for 450K which needed aprox 100K in work and is now worth at least 1.5, (3 times what we would have paid). We also looked at a house in Clinton Hill for 400k. Probably needed 200K in work, but now worth 2M (over 3 times what we would have invested). Some people really hit the lottery!

Posted by: guest at May 13, 2008 1:32 PM

Yeah nobody was getting a whole house for under $400K in 1999 in Park Slope, Brooklyn Heights or Cobble Hill.

Everybody who buys in PLG and LM admits freely they needed or wanted a brownstone but couldn't afford $2-3MM for one in Park Slope. Of course that's the case. But it doesn't mean we dislike being here. Quite the contrary. Also most of us here don't need PLG to turn into Soho to finally become happy with the amenities. We like Park Slope, are fully happily willing to go there for shopping especially. We'd just like a great organic grocery (which is supposed to be coming into the new condo building) a wine store (which is already coming on Flatbush soon) and some more restaurants (people are working on it).

Posted by: guest at May 13, 2008 1:33 PM

1:33, some of "us" want a lot more than a few stores on Lincoln. Please don't pretend to speak for all LM residents. And FYI the LM association has been "working on" getting new stores and restaurants for over a decade. The idea that those efforts are new is absurd and insulting to your many neighbors who have logged countless hours in that effort for years and years and years!

Posted by: guest at May 13, 2008 1:59 PM

Dutch, I'm not complaining about the hood. I'm complaining about the recent arrivals who think it is going to be park slope in a few years.

Posted by: guest at May 13, 2008 5:17 PM

I have to say that I find the peaceful tranquility of the Manor to be much more appealing to me than the stroller gridlock of Park Slope. I'll take my house here, with all its incredible detail, any day. I can't handle the lack of parking in the slope even enough to shop there. I prefer Stop and Shop, which has a surprisingly good organic section AND parking.

Posted by: guest at May 13, 2008 7:42 PM

1:32, a three story house in the slope would have cost $850-900,000 in 2000. I was looking then. You are mistaken in your memory. That three story house would still top out at 2M now, and that would be after putting the money in to renovate. You would have the same increase as Lefferts Manor. I watched the relative markets for three years before making the leap to PLG.

Posted by: guest at May 13, 2008 7:47 PM

"who have logged countless hours in that effort for years and years and years!"

Resulting in the arrival of one coffeeshop and one restaurant two years ago.

Improvements are coming but only because demographics in the apartments on Flatbush are changing. Which is a recent thing.

Posted by: guest at May 16, 2008 4:14 PM

Besides that, 1:59, you WAY misread the post at 1:33.

Posted by: guest at May 16, 2008 4:18 PM

This house is amazing. It has a 20x100 foot lot with a 40 ft back yard and the parlor is possibly the most beautiful we've ever seen. Congrats to both the buyers and sellers.

Posted by: guest at May 25, 2008 11:35 PM