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April 14, 2008

Shucks! Oyster Bar Dredges Up Controversy on Hoyt

For the past several months, a Community Board 6 committee has been considering a local business owner's application to get a liquor license for a bar he wants to open on Hoyt and Union. The board examined whether zoning allows for a drinking establishment in the building, which is adjacent to the Black Mountain Wine Bar, and also heard from some neighbors (especially a group called the Hoyt Street Alliance) who were opposed to the proposed business for a number of reasons, including the fact that it's near a school and the stretch of Hoyt it would open on is primarily residential. After chewing on the application for a long time, CB6 finally voted in favor of the liquor license application last week, but controversy about the establishment and the board's vote (which is ultimately only advisory, though it's weighed by the State Liquor Authority) is still alive on the web. Pardon Me For Asking has penned a couple of withering posts on the topic, writing, "As far as I am concerned, C.B.6 just signaled to all restaurateurs that this district is a free for all and that residential streets are as good as any to open bars," and also including commentary from former CB6 member Barbara Brookhart about the decision. Brookhart said "it appears that the Board gave more weight to a few residents that approved having the restaurant and bar, than the block association's petition of about 300 names against the approval of the license." Meanwhile, on the Carroll Gardens Neighborhood Association message board, a couple people have had a more tempered opinion of the board's actions. One CB member, who voted against the liquor license, nevertheless notes that "commercial use is legal, although non-conforming to current zoning at that location," while another nearby resident wrote, "Actually, I think the folks on Hoyt have a point, though having the existing bar there has been an amenity which brightens an otherwise isolated area, and impacts positively on our community." The business owner who made the application for the oyster bar is Jim Mamary, the successful Smith Street restaurateur who was behind Patois and other notable eateries.
Community "Business" Board 6 Sticks It To Hoyt & Bond Residents [Pardon Me For Asking] GMAP

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Comments

if there's anything that can destroy a neighborhood, it's a rowdy oyster bar crowd.

Posted by: z at April 14, 2008 11:27 AM

The entire argument posited by the opposition is based on a false understanding of a "community facility" use.

A community facility is defined by statute. Previously, the space was utilized as an office (apparently), ie a commercial use. It has been used for commercial purposes since before the 1961 zoning act was adopted.

The opposition seems to think the previous use was a "community use" in that it "benefited" the community and that by their own logic, a bar would NOT benefit the community and therefore it is not a community facility use.

This is wrong. Commercial use in the property is allowed as of right as a legal, yet non-conforming use.

Once again, the groupies in Carroll Gardens are attempting to flaunt the law for personal gain.

Posted by: Polemicist at April 14, 2008 11:45 AM

Please send any and all good potential restaurants and bars to Montague Street...Zero competition...

Posted by: guest at April 14, 2008 11:51 AM

I'm confused Polemicist. What is the difference of "community use" if the space was a real estate office versus a restaurant? Seems to me that more people would use a restaurant (or a bar) than they would a real estate office.

Posted by: guest at April 14, 2008 11:54 AM

I urge everyone to read the comments accompanying the "Pardon Me for Asking" post. The shrillness with which this crowd discusses this issue is unbelievable. The ultimate in navel-gazing NIMBY'ism.

Do these people understand that they live in New York City? Again, I urge everyone to read the way they address issues that are part of the everyday life in the big city. One person complains about the smoke from The Wine Bar's fireplace. The Horror....The Humanity!!!!!

There is really something weird going on in Carroll Gardens. As I've written before, even the way they speak of their neighborhood (the singular "community") is indicative of a tribal, or village-like, mentality.

Memo to this crowd: this weekend, go to a bar, take some hard shots of liquor, and smoke your brains out. You need a dose of reality.

Benson

Posted by: guest at April 14, 2008 11:57 AM

11:27 - genius.

back in 96 when i was shopping for a house carroll gardens rubbed me the wrong way. this is when I considered places priced around $500K.

Now, it's not only annoying, but super expensive.

congratulations!

Posted by: guest at April 14, 2008 12:04 PM

There is the reality. Lots of corner buildings in otherwise residential middle density areas (R5 to R7) were built with storefronts. These are permitted to be used and reused as such indefinately, and are not confined to the "community facilities" otherwise permitted in residential zoning districts, and for good reason.

When the issue of the use of these spaces was under consideration at the Department of City Planning the possiblity of excluding drinking facilities from them was considered, but it turned out that bars and restaurants are among the most common uses of such spaces.

Applying greater scrutiny for liquor applications in such spaces would require a change in state law, and the bar and restaurant industry gives lots of money to state legislators (and probably free drinks & meals too), do forget it.

Posted by: guest at April 14, 2008 12:06 PM

11:54

A community facility use does not include retail services. It includes uses such as schools, churches, hospitals, homeless shelters, dorms, and what not.

In the end, the argument is irrelevant. The building has been used consistently as a commercial property since before the current zoning act was adopted. Because it was a doctor's office recently doesn't change this fact.

Anyway, good post Benson. I don't know what the deal is in that hood either. The people there are downright weird. 10+ years ago, there was barely anything going on this area and this corner in particular was decidedly NOT safe.

Posted by: Polemicist at April 14, 2008 12:12 PM

If someone wanted to open a chain fast-food everyone here(on Brownstoner) would be against but since the proposed establishment caters to younger, drinking affluent crowd it is just fine.
A quiet neighborhood corner on residential street does not want a nighttime establishment that disburb the quiet.
The proliferation of bars/restaurants is part of why so called mom-and-pop shops can't afford anything.
Booze places can pay higher rents.
Neighborhood loses other services.
CB6 just doesn't get it. (and of course the committee that voted on this is headed by owner of Brazen Head bar).
We don't want to be party central. Need a more balanced neighborhood .

Posted by: guest at April 14, 2008 12:13 PM

but all the young people want the bars. And theres shitloads of young people.

Posted by: guest at April 14, 2008 12:23 PM

First of all, Benson - will you marry me? Couldn't have said it better myself.

Second of all, I am a resident of Union St just a few doors down from the wine bar. I can only say positive things about the results of this place. I have never seen a problem with the crowd and I welcome it.

Before the wine bar, Union & Hoyt street was a desolate and potentially unsafe area to walk through at night. There were all kinds of weary characters just hanging around on the corner by the school. Since then, that crowd has moved on.

Also, the owners and managers of Blk Mtn are very considerate of their neighbors and monitor the noise outside.

WTF is the problem???? If you want to live in Suburbia, move the fuck out of NYC and go back to the midwest where you belong.
You're in Brooklyn people!!

Ugh...another reason I hate transplants.

Posted by: guest at April 14, 2008 12:30 PM

I live a couple of blocks away and would be THRILLED to have an oyster bar there. People are crazy in CG - they tend to be against any and all change.

Posted by: guest at April 14, 2008 12:31 PM

Oh, I think CB6 gets it. This is the microeconomics of the power elite in action.

The Alan Harding and Jim Mamary empire includes:

Black Mountain Wine, Cafe Enduro, Fish Shack, Gowanus Yacht Club, La Rosa, Patois, Pacifico, Pioneer Bar-B-Q, Schnäck, Pomme de Terre Brooklyn, Sweetwater, Uncle Pho (defunct), and Union Smith.

None of those were in existence when I moved here - quite a decade.

We're having a similar issue on my block (Pacific and Bond), but the protest has been muted compared to CG Hoyt street affair.

I have no issue with either place getting a liquor license, but then again, I don't share a brick wall with them.

Posted by: BoerumHill at April 14, 2008 12:32 PM

12:13

No, I would not oppose a fast food restaurant.

I believe in the free market in this city, and it is clear to me that such establishments do not do well in neighborhoods like Carroll Gardens. This should be obvious, otherwise there would be more of them.

The real point is the activist crew in Carroll Gardens seems unable to grasp the concept of the rule of law. Their reactionary demands are always based on specious arguments.

If you want to lobby for a change in the zoning code, fine. If you want to lobby the state to change how liquor licenses are granted, do it.

Whining and demanding the government slap people around despite no legal basis for doing so is dangerous.

This city is not run like the mafia. The Don does not decide what is and what is not legal on a whim.

Posted by: Polemicist at April 14, 2008 12:37 PM

First of all, Benson - will you marry me? Couldn't have said it better myself.

Also, the owners and managers of Blk Mtn are very considerate of their neighbors and monitor the noise outside.

WTF is the problem???? If you want to live in Suburbia, move the fuck out of NYC and go back to the midwest where you belong.
You're in Brooklyn people!!

Ugh...another reason I hate transplants.

Posted by: guest at April 14, 2008 12:42 PM

Great last line, Polemicist, but are you so sure it doesn't actually work just like that?

-a cynical attorney

Posted by: guest at April 14, 2008 12:43 PM

we are still talking about carroll gardens, right? all it takes is a hand shake.

one bar fine...2 on a residential block is too many.

and this notion that more is ok on a residential block and that we're a bunch of nimby's is out of line. it's great that the neighborhoods are thriving, but there is a point where it could tip beyond and there's usually no going back...see east village...

Posted by: cobblehiller at April 14, 2008 12:49 PM

BoerumHill: On an emotional level, I feel bad for the immediate neighbors whose homes and daily lives truly will be negatively affected by increased noise, trash, whatever. But on a rational level, I don't. Assuming they own, and assuming this is, in fact, a legal use, they bought next door to a commercial property and either did or could have demanded that this risk be priced in to their purchase. The fact that the risk is becoming a reality for them is bad luck, but not unjust. And also, I like oysters.

Posted by: i disagree at April 14, 2008 12:55 PM

i like oysters too.

if you don't, move.

Posted by: guest at April 14, 2008 1:19 PM

As long as they don't try to open up in a month that has an "r" in it, I'm all for this place.

Posted by: guest at April 14, 2008 1:47 PM

It's "flout," not "flaunt" the law. A real polemicist would know that.

Posted by: guest at April 14, 2008 1:51 PM

RIGHT ON BENSON!!! The pathetic nimby scum who are always pathetic losers try to make people think they are the voice of the community, when the reality is they know the property owners and normal residents wouldn't or couldn't be bothered, or have the time to voice their support. It's easy to spend time protesting when you only have to pony up a pittance for a rent controlled dump of an apartment. The rest of us have loftier pursuits.

Posted by: guest at April 14, 2008 2:00 PM

The most active people in CGNA and CORD are owners, oh lofty one!

Posted by: guest at April 14, 2008 2:04 PM

1:51

You must be new to the internet. Correcting typos does very little to support your argument, although it does make people think you got your panties in a wad.

If it makes you feel better, please keep at it though.

Posted by: Polemicist at April 14, 2008 2:20 PM

It's not a typo, it's ignorance from someone who presents themselves falsely as an intellectual with a pretentious pen name and lectures people.

Posted by: guest at April 14, 2008 3:11 PM

I just read the Pardon me for Asking reaction. I love the post about the negative impression that adults sitting outside, drinking wine will have on neighborhood school children walking by. Really? They live in New York City and their biggest worry for the youth of BH is that they could see a bunch of adults talking with friends and drinking wine? Sheesh. Count yourself lucky.

Posted by: guest at April 14, 2008 3:12 PM

Would Mr. Mamary please consider a good restaurant on 7th Avenue in Park Slope? I'm a huge fan of the new Pomme de Terre and if he can find a spot without obscene rent (hard), he'd do well over here.

I'm not sure that Slopers notice or care because their tastes are becoming increasingly more Applebee's and less Applewood, but I was just realizing that I do NOT have ONE favorite restaurant on this strip, from Flatbush to 14th Street.

All the restaurants here have B- to D+ food: Miracle Grill / Elementi / Sette / Yamato / Tutta Pasta / Santa Fe / Rancho Alegro (you have to be kidding) and C+ to F decor: Elementi, I'm talkin' to you, is it 1985 in Stroudsburg, PA?

I find myself on 5th Avenue 95 times out of 96. Sometimes I hit Mr. Falafel when I'm lazy but mostly for lunch, not dinner. Where's the Good Forks, the Sauls, even the Conviviums? 7th Avenue is a wasteland. Bring us the oysters, we'll slurp 'em down so loudly, you'll have to call 311!

Posted by: guest at April 14, 2008 3:19 PM

3:11

By all means then, please continue to point out my ignorance. In the meantime, I will continue to lecture people regarding 1) the law and 2) real estate economics.

I've gotten under your skin, and that's really all that matters.

Posted by: Polemicist at April 14, 2008 4:06 PM

guest 3:19

While I agree 7th Ave is an epicurean wasteland, you notably left off Chillies and Chocolate from your list of mediocrity. Gotta love well prepared oaxacan.

You should be eating there 95 out of 96 times.

Posted by: BoerumHill at April 14, 2008 6:22 PM

This story is being played out in neighborhoods across NYC and the reality is that the community has absolutely NO power to stop it... regardless of the actions of the local community board. The SLA doesn't consider "quality of life" issues when handing out its approvals. They're more interested in the vast tax revenues these licenses generate. So, be warned... that quiet doctor's office, dance studio or boutique next door today could become the loud, boistrous bar next door that will disrupt your life until you don't care because you've either gone deaf or were forced to move away.

And Benson, we don't live in New York, we live in Brooklyn... in the city that never sleeps, this is where we come to sleep. And no capitalist venture should trump a community's right to a peaceful sleep.

Posted by: guest at April 14, 2008 10:02 PM

10.02 PM;

Please, get a grip!! Please take the advice I offered at the end of my original post.

Benson

Posted by: guest at April 15, 2008 9:58 AM

You are 100% wrong. They are concerned with quality of life issues but not if the business has zero complaints or comes from a reputable background. Neighbors are trying to shut down plenty of places, but the reality is, if the business is responsible and acts as a good neighbor, there should be no complaining. The noise? Well, you're out of luck. Move to the country.

Posted by: guest at April 15, 2008 11:07 AM

« Stylish Times at The Flea 360 Smith, 2.0 »

April 14, 2008

Shucks! Oyster Bar Dredges Up Controversy on Hoyt

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