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April 17, 2008

Renovation Without the Debt

Brooklynites may be able to learn a thing or two from the discipline and staying power of one Ohioan renovator. Granted, the Akron couple featured in today's New York Times, David and Gina Giffels, picked up their 1913 Tudor for an envy-inducing $65,000 back in 1996. But their meticulous renovation in the intervening twelve years without taking on a penny of debt (they don't believe in credit cards) is impressive nonetheless. Of course, there were other costs, like vacation time spent with a caulk gun instead of the children. But it's clear that the couple's relationship with the house transcends finances anyway. “What I put into it was about eight ounces of my heart,” Mr. Giffels told the NY Times. “It’s like asking, ‘Well, what do you have in Gina, what have you spent on Gina over the years? Gina is not a commodity; neither is this. It’s not something that we really bought, it’s something that came into our lives.” We're sure there are more than a couple readers who have a similar tale.
Don’t Hate Me Because I’m Solvent [NY Times]
An Artful Restoration Slideshow [NY Times]

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boy am i "tired" of these amazing people
LOL

Posted by: guest at April 17, 2008 10:24 AM

I guess its an interesting renovation story but from a financial perspective it is insane - they paid $65,000 put hundreds of thousands of dollars in time and materials and the house probably isnt worth 100K today - Ohio RE is some of the worst in the nation and Akron is some of the worst in Ohio.

All that and they have to live in Akron - thanks but Id sooner go into debt

Posted by: guest at April 17, 2008 10:34 AM

We are renovating without debt. It's going slowly, and we just moved into the first finished apartment last weekend after living for a year, basically, in stresful, abject squalor.

We are doing a lot of the work ourselves, hiring out when we can't do it well, and we just don't start a project until the bank account says it's OK.

We got a couple of generous family gifts that jump-started us--without those, we would have been really fucked. But especially now that we are not living in a nasty carpeted half-construction zone, I am glad to be doing it this way.

Posted by: guest at April 17, 2008 10:35 AM

what I liked about these guys was that they were doing it for a "home", not for a payday at the end. I'm sick of every conversation about renvovations here in brooklyn all coming down to the dollars and cents of the market -- what they bought for, what they can get now. zzzzzzzzzzzz

Posted by: guest at April 17, 2008 10:46 AM

I think this is an amazing story; especially in NYC where everyone only values paying someone else to do something they could do themselves.

Posted by: guest at April 17, 2008 10:48 AM

Not leveraging something you will use over decades is not an admirable financial policy. It is just as stupid as buying what you cannot afford on credit nobody should have extended to you.

Posted by: guest at April 17, 2008 11:43 AM

Sometimes its cheaper to have someone who knows what they are doing do the work. If I figure the hours it would take for me to learn how and actually do some of the expensive parts of my renovation, I could have made 5x the amt at work. Not counting the costs not quantified by the aggravation, time wasted, missed years of life, etc..

I don't disagree about the debt - there is no reason to be paying for a renovation forever but there is also no reason to spend a decade working on something that could be done in a few months.

It is nice that they view their home as something dear to them vs. a financial asset alone. But realistically, you can't look at it with so much emotion. At least in part, a home is a financial product.

Posted by: Mrs. Limestone at April 17, 2008 12:00 PM

This family is great. What a wonderful story. At last, people who do something, anything, for the love of it, not the financial end result. So what if Akron is not what it once was, does that mean everyone abandons the city? Kudos to people who want to stay, improve the city they love, and do their bit to make it attractive to the next wave. Cities can come back, NY certainly had its low points, not that long ago.

I guess the comments show how the readership of this blog has changed since the beginning. People like the Giffels would have been sainted, not scorned. Of course, not everyone can, or wants to go their route, and there is nothing whatsoever wrong with NOT going their route, everyone's lives, finances, and even homes, are different. But to deride them for, of all things, not being in debt...... wow.

They did a great job on their house, too. How about that, the Times did a story on people not rich, or over-extended, and not selling for megabucks.

More stories on real people and homes, whether done themselves or not. The over-proliferation of new construction condo stories, speculation on the bubble, and endless money talk is taking its toll on this valuable site. More variety, please, Mr.B.

Posted by: Montrose Morris at April 17, 2008 12:41 PM

"Not leveraging something you will use over decades is not an admirable financial policy. It is just as stupid as buying what you cannot afford on credit nobody should have extended to you."

Huh? I guess. If the only equity loans you're ever going to take out are for renovations.

What about paying for college? What about layoffs and being without a job for several months like happens sometimes? What about a possible catastrophic illness and wanting to be treated at a decent clinic somewhere else and not have to use whatever in-network crap hospital you are forced to use with your insurance?

Renovating without debt is the way everybody used to do it and it's not only totally fine financially, it IS smart, sorry. Be in debt up to your eyeballs if you want. Some of choose not to do that. We are renovating without debt too. Sure, our house is not a total perfect showcase, for those whose tastes run more "condo" and need everything to be new and perfect. But it's a beautiful house and I change my mind all the time about what I want to do with renovations anyway, so it's a good thing for me to do the renovations gradually not all at once. In the end, it's just nice to remind people there is more than just ONE way to renovate.

Posted by: guest at April 17, 2008 12:49 PM

"Painted door hinges were a moral affront to him — rather than go to bed with his wife when she asked him to in the times after the miscarriages, he’d work on a project.

All my vacation time, all my possible spare time, a number of years of my children’s growing up I gave to my children’s house. And once you get in it, you can’t get out, you can’t sell a house in that condition. When all of a sudden you realize what it is costing you in your life, it’s too late"

Between these comments and the looks on his kids faces in that photo lies the REAL story -- a man obsessed with a project at the expense of time with his family . How heartbreakingly ironic that his favorite movie 'It's a Wonderful Life'!

Posted by: guest at April 17, 2008 1:19 PM

1:19

I'm with you. What an A**hole this guy is and then these idiots here are praising him for equating his wife with the house. She should wait until it's done, go to court for a divorce and then laugh all the way to the bank when he has to sell it to give her half its worth.

Posted by: guest at April 17, 2008 2:22 PM

It is definitely sad that he missed so much family time while renovating, but not any more sad than a new yorker obsessed with the earning power of a wall st banking/law job to pay for a renovation of a $2-$5 million brownstone. Surely those jobs result in cancelled vacations, interrupted or nonexistent family meals, etc. Mine does and I'm hardly a high earner with crazy hours by WS standards. To spend 12 years renovating by hand with no debt is a great story though!

But, 2:22 - come on, it's a metaphor -- not a smart one to make -- but he did not literally 'equate' his wife to his house either.

Posted by: guest at April 17, 2008 3:23 PM

12:49 What are you talking about? You need to hire a financial planner asap. You don't use your house to pay for college for the same reason you don't pay for your house upfront. You will use the education over a lifetime, so you get student loans and pay them off over 30 years. The government subsidizes student loans and offers tax deductions for mortgage interest for a reason - to encourage idiots like you to use leverage wisely. You still don't get it.

Clearly you want to do your own renovations. I think you should probably hire some professionals so your house doesn't fall down around you. It's clear from your comments that you don't hire financial professionals either and are making stupid judgments about the proper use of investments and leverage.

Posted by: guest at April 17, 2008 3:46 PM

Um, we DO hire professionals, 3:46. Where did I say we didn't? We just hire them with cash, no loans. And no, our house is not falling down around us.

I think the only thing that's clear is you are one of the bitter contractors that show up on Forum all the time bashing people who don't want to be in debt for 30 years just for a new bathroom you've managed to convince them costs $50K or it "will fall down". It's not the bubble anymore. People are going to spend what they can afford now. It's a good thing.

Posted by: guest at April 17, 2008 4:03 PM

3:23 you're right. he didn't equate her to the house. he ranked her below the house in choosing to works on "projects" rather than go to be with her and offer her the comfort she needed and requested after miscarrying his kids. Major a**hole. When his kid grows up and reads how daddy treated mommy after the loss of his siblings, kid is going to be selling this wreck.

Posted by: guest at April 17, 2008 4:33 PM

Posted by: guest at April 17, 2008 5:51 PM

I wonder if all of the chemicals - paints, strippers, waxes and dust possibly from lead paint and God knows what else caused her to miscarry.

Posted by: guest at April 17, 2008 6:57 PM

Nobody forced her into the marriage nor forced her to live there. Plus they seem happy. Very strange everyone sees misery in their faces because hmm, I'm not seeing it.

The judgemental ultra-superior super-competitive mommy types of our generation are so hard to take. Live your own life and let other people make their own choices about their own families why don't you?

Posted by: guest at April 17, 2008 7:36 PM

The article claims a doctor said not to worry that the stress of moving in and taking the place on caused 2 miscarriages in the 1st year there. I'm guessing that's more likely to be literary license by this loser husband rather than malpractice by some fictional doctor.

Posted by: guest at April 17, 2008 8:10 PM

"The judgemental ... Live your own life and let other people make their own choices...?"

hypocrite

Posted by: guest at April 17, 2008 8:27 PM

They seem happy overall. Far more happy than some of the bitter, nit-picking, miserable folks here in Brownstonerland.

Posted by: guest at April 17, 2008 10:57 PM

« City Looks to Compromise on Coney Could Red Hook Become a Biker Haven? »

April 17, 2008

Renovation Without the Debt

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