Glassy PLG Tower Bad News for Birds, Says Expert

Sounds like this piece of trash will be almost as bad for birds as it will be for the neighborhood. PLG deserves better than this.

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 10:44 AM

Those are homing pigeons.

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 10:44 AM

I've never seen the dead birds. But if would reduce population of Canadian geese - lets build lots of these.

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 10:46 AM

Wow, I've heard boatloads of inane reasons why new buildings should not be erected, but this takes the prize!

What's next, fretting over the fate of mice, rats, and roaches? After all, future residents of this building are likely to use traps to catch vermin.

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 10:50 AM

Oh f*** the birds!

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 10:58 AM

10:50: sounds like you're not the one who would be accidentally kicking their carcasses on your way to the train in the morning. birds wouldn't run into the building if it weren't all glass.

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 11:01 AM

That's not true. When the World Trade Center towers still existed, they would find hundreds of dead or stunned birds on the ground. Look it up.

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 11:02 AM

birds were making left and right turns way before man.

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 11:03 AM

So is this building actually being built? I mean, with prices in condos being reduced all over Brooklyn, sales down, and major Brooklyn projects being shelved, did someone actually finance a tower in PLG? Seems like a risky investment to me, at this stage in the game. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for the tower--I'm just amazed that financing hasn't been pulled already.

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 11:05 AM

Use smoke windows and brass like Trump does and the birds will avoid it like the plague.

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 11:06 AM

What about the bugs, bats, mosquitos or locusts?

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 11:06 AM

Only the retarded and blind birds will die off. It is good for the bird genes of the next generations.

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 11:09 AM

Scientific facts: Some birds have been known to hit trees and rock formations near seas and mountains. Some just drop from the skies of heart attack.

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 11:15 AM

Blame Canada!

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 11:17 AM

11:03: When glass is clear, birds see only what's on the other side; when it is reflective, birds see only reflected sky and trees. The AIA has studied it, and the Empire State Building has made changes so birds stop running into the building. Who would want to live in a condo that has bird guts on its windows, and who would want to live near one that always had bird bodies on the ground? This building is next to a very busy subway station, so the bodies will get trampled. The size of the tower is fine but they should look at other buildings and change the design.

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 11:18 AM

I don't care about the birds, but I do care about this butt fugly structure being erected in my nabe, and within eyeshot of Prospect Park no less. Jesus Christ. You can build anything in Brooklyn, no matter how ugly and depressing it is.

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 11:22 AM

i don't get why this is ugly... really - looks fabulous. i wouldn't live in that neighborhood for anything, but the building looks killer.

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 11:27 AM

I actually like the balcony, the openness and the amazing views. Can't wait!

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 11:32 AM

I have little inclination to live in PLG, but this handsome (based on a rendering) building (at my price point, which ain't OPP) might convince me.

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 11:32 AM

11:18 thanks. maybe the mutlicolor curtains that will pepper that skyscrapper will help the birds.

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 11:35 AM

This is not about Canada Geese. It is about the over 200 species of birds that migrate through the NYC area and stopover in Prospect Park for food and rest during their long and perilous journeys (and a number of whom stay there to breed). Many of these species are in decline across the continent due to loss of habitat, pollution, and other environmental problems. Some of the most susceptible to bird collison are ruby-crowned kinglets, ovenbirds, common yellowthroats, white-throated sparrows, and dark-eyed juncos. Look them up and you may feel some sympathy. There are many design features that can be incorporated into building design that can prevent bird collision problems. Apparently the developers of this building, while intending to profit from proximity to the park, have no interest in protecting the wildlife that rely on the park for sustenance. I think On Prospect Park will create serious problems as well. Not to mention that these will permanently alter the sightlines of the park for the worst.

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 11:38 AM

If you actually do care about the conservation of some of the only remaining wildlife in NYC (unlike many of the posters above), and you're interested in more information or data, please check out http://www.nycaudubon.org/NYCASBirdWatch/TabOverview.asp

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 11:54 AM

so there's a possibility that you may get hit by a flying pelican if you hang out on the balcony?

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 11:55 AM

11:35: You forget that birds aren't that smart. If you read the Architectural Record link, it says 1 billion birds die annually in the U.S. from hitting buildings, bridges and other manmade structures, but glass is the main culprit. Obviously, while in flight, they aren't able to distinguish variations that easily. So why, next to a park that is a bird magnet, build a completely see-through glass tower? How would you like it if birds were banging up against your window, then sliding down dead?

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 12:01 PM

Not EVERY glass building makes birds hit it. There are things to do in the design to avoid that.

http://www.toronto.ca/lightsout/pdf/development_guidelines.pdf

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 12:08 PM

How anyone could think that this generic looking "thing" is attractive is beyond me. Looks like the sort of thing you'd order from Developments R Us. It's the relentless blandness of the building that explains its supreme suckitude.

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 12:18 PM

Actually 12:18, what's generic in Brooklyn is brownstone and brick.

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 12:24 PM

"Look them up and you may feel some sympathy."

Then again, I may not.

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 12:25 PM

I like this building.

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 12:25 PM

Never build a tall building in this country ever again. Especially not in NYC.

That's a really realistic proposal.

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 12:26 PM

Yes, and everything unique is then "generic" in it's tiny little corner of the universe.

This faceless, inchoate glass box would be a big negative for Lefferts. In fact, if this building is built, I suggest they change the nabe's name from PLG to "Neighborhood, Inc."

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 12:28 PM

There's a Chinese take-out right next door.

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 12:28 PM

Damn, we totally have some brokers on the site today.

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 12:29 PM

Before they begin construction on this stinker, I suggest they see if Fedders would like to make an alternative proposal....

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 12:30 PM

I don't see this building as generic at all - it is super cool. generic is row after row of depressingly dismal brownstones made for the masses who were assumed to have zero taste and even less imagine.

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 12:30 PM

oops...meant imagination. typing too fast. apologies.

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 12:31 PM

Typing too fast and thinking too slowly.

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 12:32 PM

Gotcha 12:01 sucks. it's a lose/ lose for all.

hopefully there's an invention that addresses the issue before the sky pad apts from the Jetson's appear.

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 12:35 PM

Seriously. Besides who gets to be the king of taste in NYC. Everybody wants to be the authority on taste... glass is generic, no brownstones are generic... New York City has become as bad as the suburbs, where everyone wants all the houses to line up neatly with little variation (five shades of taupe to choose from!!!) and if you try to do something "out of character" the whole neighborhood association swoops down on you.

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 12:38 PM

You're right 12:38. Let's open Brooklyn up to just any development, no matter how hideous and ugly it is.

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 12:40 PM

One wonders why "12:30 PM" wastes their time on Brownstoner given their evident distaste for brownstones.

Perhaps they would have more fun at WhineAboutEverything.com.

My own whine is now over.

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 12:43 PM

Yeah why have more housing in NYC when we can have holes in the ground where developments were once supposed to be built and which the developers can't sell to recoup their costs so they sit there neglected eyesores. Good strategy everybody.

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 12:43 PM

Next to this development, a hole in the ground looks pretty good.

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 12:50 PM

Except that reflective glass looks like sky and trees to birds. It's just as bad as transparent glass.

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 1:13 PM

Again, a lot of either/or thinking in these comments. It IS possible to tweak the design a little to minimize the impact on the birds AND have the building get built very close to it's original form. If the architect can do it, then why not?

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 1:15 PM

What about an etched pattern on the glass. It also might make the interior space feel more intimate and private too. Less a fishbowl. You could still see the views but there's be a screened effect.

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 1:17 PM

If a pelican hits you in this building, it probably means the ice caps have melted and Prospect Park is an ocean front park. Then you would have really killer views.

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 1:18 PM

BrooklynLove: Why don't you try looking something up before you disregard something as idiocy because it doesn't immediately make sense to you. That's idiocy. There are even helpful links in the posting so you don't have to do the Google search yourself. You see an article from the Architectural Record that says "Bird-Friendly Architecture," and a bird expert is saying glass towers are a problem, yet because it doesn't make sense right away to YOU, it's idiocy. Are you a jack of all trades?

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 1:22 PM

A brilliant design for 21st century living! In a crowded city, why not a transparent glass structure? Fuggeddaboutdaboyds. Residents put drapes in windows for opaqueness; and birds have brains too, if tiny, to know not to bash their heads into buildings. So don't underestimate the social animals.

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 1:23 PM

Affordable housing no... affordable free range geese for Thanksgiving dinner yes!

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 1:26 PM

My neighbor once killed two birds with just one stone!

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 1:35 PM

at least the western beef will now have some fresh meat

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 1:36 PM

more concerned about the bird poop in the window. cleaning's a pain.

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 1:41 PM

Don't buy here, they don't allow furniture!

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 1:44 PM

The point is that birds can't necessarily tell the difference between a tree on the other side of the glass and a tree reflected in the glass. Either way, they're going for that tree.

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 1:51 PM

Affordable housing no... affordable free range geese for Thanksgiving dinner yes!

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 1:58 PM

"This faceless, inchoate glass box would be a big negative for Lefferts."

I HATE inchoate buildings!

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 2:19 PM

This is not a sufficient argument for downzoning, btw. Buildings do not have to be tall to be a danger to birds. Any structure higher than the treetops are a danger. Look it up. Thus the reason they also hit bridges and other things.

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 2:40 PM

Birds on a migration flight have to stop and rest. They don't just fly thousands of miles without stopping. And I don't think the opposition is concerned with birds only when they are headed to and from the south for migration. You clearly aren't an expert on this.

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 2:41 PM

Could there be any better proof that the NIMBY's/anti-everything crowd will do and say anything to protect their agenda.

There are 23 story buildings all over the world and somehow the birds manage to survive. Yet here in the middle of the city apparently this relatively low building will cause a bird holocaust. It is so stupid as to be laughable - except some court somewhere will be willing to tie up the developer with litigation that will cost thousands of dollars.

And BTW - Migratory Birds generally fly north south routes so they should have no trouble finding Prospect Park (or National Wildlife refuge in Jamaica Bay - where they actually do stop and nest) despite this building

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 2:46 PM

The rendering is also totally misleading - makes the building look like it will be 230 stories instead of 23.

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 2:49 PM

it also looks like a giant bird cage.

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 3:10 PM

More glass high-rises will confuse terrorists of which bldg to target. What a concept.

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 3:24 PM

do think that it's silly that brownstoners complain about new buildings. anyone so enamored with past and are obviously not the target for a brand new apartment like the ones in this building.

way better to hear what actual potential buyers of this type of apt have to say.

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 3:26 PM

"An estimated 1 billion birds die annually in the United States as a result of striking buildings, bridges, and other manmade structures. Many factors play a role, including lights, vegetation, and water. But glass is the main culprit, according to bird-safe design guidelines released in 2007 by the New York City Audubon Society, the Chicago Birds & Buildings Forum, and the City of Toronto. Since birds don’t perceive conventionally formulated glass as a solid barrier, they fly into it. They may mistake reflections as continuous space and be attracted to trees or other objects in or visible through a glassed-in space."

The point is not that tall buildings are bad, or that bird safety is more important than housing, the point is, if design modifications can reduce the number of dead birds, then they should be used. I personally don't care about the height of this buildings or really that a certain number of animals will die because of manmade alterations to the environment, although I think it's heartless to not at least try to reduce animal deaths. I care about seeing dead or stunned birds on the ground almost every day, the sight makes me want to throw up. I don't want to see them, step on them, or pull them out of my dog's mouth. So if there is something that can be done so that doesn't happen, like design modifications, than it should be done.

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 3:34 PM

Anything proposed to be built close to PRospect Park can literally be vetoed by the NYC Parks Dept. This is a little known but true old law on the books that has doomed other similar proposals in other nabes adjacent to Prospect Park. And I can't imagine that the Parks Dept would allow such a thing to be built as a result. Their concern is only the park. PLG residents will all just have to join one of the nearby Food Coops or suffer without organic produce.

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 3:52 PM

I think they should build this out of cinderblocks and use tinted windows. Just make it a giant solid monolith that birds can see from miles away. The birds will be safe and the NIMBY's will cry themselves to sleep every night.

A win-win situation in my book.

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 4:30 PM

Let's hear what the birds have to say on this...

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 4:54 PM

"With our cities, humans have inadvertently created a landscape that is intrinsically peril­ous for migratory birds. Nocturnally migrating birds can be disoriented by light and become “trapped” by illuminated structures. Throughout modern history, “clouds of birds” have been observed fluttering around lit-up structures, such as lighthouses, bridges and skyscrapers...Trapped like moths at a porch light, the birds are vulnerable to colliding with the structures or even each other. Birds that don’t strike the building eventually become exhausted and take refuge in nearby trees or shrubs.

Once in the urban environment, birds often collide with windows, either because the glass is transparent, and shows a potted plant inside, or reflective, and mirrors the surrounding area. Both types effectively mask the solid nature of glass, which the birds are unable to perceive as a barrier. As a result, window strikes are believed to be a major source of bird mortality. Some experts maintain that after habitat destruction, glass poses a greater threat to birds than any other human product or activity. A conservative estimate puts the number of birds killed annually in the U.S. by striking window at 100 million—one bird for every building.

Individual office buildings kill many more. Between April 1997 and May 2001, NYCAS volunteers found at the World Financial Center 720 dead or injured birds of 63 differ­ent species. Seventeen of those species are experiencing significant long-term population declines. These totals reflect only the birds actually found; the vast majority of casualties went undocumented. With just a handful of volunteers providing limited coverage, many more birds were swept up by cleaning staff or scavenged by predators (cats, rats, gulls, etc).

Two hundred twenty-five species—25% of all bird species in North America—have been documented as colliding with windows. This is not natural selection, which removes individuals that are least likely to survive and reproduce. Collisions affect both adult and juvenile birds, whether fit or unfit.

In Toronto, volunteers with the Fatal Light Awareness Program (FLAP) found 15,036 window-strike casualties between 1993 and 2000. FLAP calculates that some 10,000 birds are killed or injured each year in downtown Toronto alone.

Multiply these numbers by all the cities that lie between birds’ breeding grounds in north­ern Canada and their wintering grounds in Central or South America, and you have a sig­nificant source of mortality. What makes these deaths all the more regrettable is the fact that they could be prevented. Any measures to avert further mortality could save millions of birds and make a difference in species’ long-term survival."

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 4:59 PM

I think the building looks cool.

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 5:05 PM

There's some factory in Germany that makes special glass that has something that's embedded in the glass that birds can see but humans can't. They're using it for a new building on the Zoo grounds in the Bronx. Wish I could remember the name or find the reference, but if someone wanted to badly enough, they could. Expense-wise, I don't know the deal.

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 5:37 PM

I work in a new glass building in midtown. We wondered when we first moved in why we kept seeing dead and disoriented birds near the employee entrance. Flip commenters don't have a clue; the Park is a vital stop for migrating birds, and this building will kill them, period.

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 6:59 PM

"And I can't imagine that the Parks Dept would allow such a thing to be built as a result."

You mean the way they didn't allow tall buildings around Central Park?

Right.

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 7:02 PM

How active are you in collecting and euthanizing feral cats then, 6:59?

Because the domestic cat population kills far more songbirds in the U.S. than buildings. To the extent some songbirds are going extinct.

I'll believe the opposition to this building truly care about the birds when they start gathering up the feral cats too.

Tap...tap...

Waiting...

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 7:09 PM

Bird-safe glass is called Ornilux, made by Isolar in Germany. They should make these guys use it.

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 7:17 PM

jerk goose stand = $$$$$$$

Posted by: guest at April 4, 2008 9:58 PM

How much is that birdie in the window....

Posted by: guest at April 5, 2008 1:17 AM

...the one with the a-vion flu

Posted by: guest at April 5, 2008 1:19 AM

http://www.toronto.ca/lightsout/pdf/development_guidelines.pdf

This posted link above seems to have been missed. There are guidelines to protect birds from crashing in tall buildings. Yes there are migrating birds flying over Brooklyn and crossing over the park, yes tall glass buildings disorient birds and kill them, as the sky reflects in the windows. We should all consider protecting the birds we have in New York, and use our $$ and brain for good things for once. So this building has to be redesigned.

Posted by: guest at April 5, 2008 8:08 AM

Maybe the birds could rest atop this building. After a week of shitting on it, the glass would surely be opaque. Better yet, the birds could hang out at the local bodega and share a 40 with the homies.

Posted by: guest at April 5, 2008 8:14 AM

If this building were covered in bird shit, it would actually be an improvement.

Posted by: guest at April 5, 2008 9:46 AM

My friend is an expert in wildlife and controlling bird hits at airports.
She told me the buildings that are the big problem for birds crashing into them in NYC are far taller than this building. It's not because they're all glass and reflect the sky. The Empire State Building is one of the worst for bird hits. It's not all glass. It's just really tall. Much taller than this building of course.

They're never going to stop building tall buildings. Ever. If people really care about the birds the objective should not be to stop this one little ole building. It should be to encourage the development of pioneering design to help stop bird hits on ALL buildings EVERYWHERE. Otherwise frankly the concern about the birds comes across as simply an issue to use to protest this one building.

Posted by: guest at April 5, 2008 1:58 PM

Thousands of years ago birds crashed into the Pyramids. I saw it happen.

Posted by: guest at April 5, 2008 9:19 PM

Prospect Part was & is the best place to have when you are living in a building in Brooklyn,i grew up right there on Flatbush ave between Empire Blvd&Lincoln Road so to put a Glass Tower right there people look around you dose it fit in NO...23 stoys.. six storys.. are what is there not.. that thing ..

Posted by: guest at April 12, 2008 11:59 AM