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March 31, 2008
The San Fran-Brooklyn Love Connection
Did you know there are places to live in the United States aside from Brooklyn? Neither did we, but according to an article in the Style section of yesterday's Times, there's a place in California called San Francisco that is something of a sister city to Brooklyn. Or, as the piece puts it, "there is a young, earnest population that is beating a path between artsy, gentrifying neighborhoods in Brooklyn and their counterparts in the Bay Area, especially East Oakland and the area south of Market Street in San Francisco, or SoMa." So what do the two places have in common aside from loads of creatives? Local eyesores (Emeryville mud flats and the Gowanus Canal); good breweries (Anchor and Brooklyn); literary do-gooder establishments (Dave Eggers' 826 Valencia and 826NYC); and a shared ethos: "If there is an aesthetic credo to Brooklyn and the Bay Area, it is Do It Yourself, which connotes more than using an Allen wrench from Ikea. D.I.Y. can mean everything from wearing locally designed T-shirts to attending concerts staged in someone’s warehouse apartment, to riding a bike to work."
Sisters in Idiosyncrasy [NY Times]
San Francisco photo by Dizzy Atmosphere; Brooklyn photo by rsguskind.
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Comments
With all the smiley, entitled, yuppie, faux liberal, holier than thou, artsy fartsy, passive racist, whitebread passing as creatives that I see more and more of on the streets of Brooklyn I can only HOPE that this city does not become San Francisco.
I left that place to get AWAY from those horrible, horrible people.
Are there any creative cities left that are not utterly generic?
Posted by: guest at March 31, 2008 10:12 AM
SF is Manhattan, Brooklyn is more like Oakland. Across the Bridge etc. I think there has been strong countercultural ties between New York and SF since I don't the 1940's? Of course now creative culture is priced out to Brooklyn, but its pretty much the same cutltural dynamic between the cities that has been around for 70 years. Nice of the Times to notice.
Posted by: guest at March 31, 2008 10:13 AM
SF is HARDLY Manhattan. Have you ever lived there?
The Brooklyn connection fits much tighter. Its spot on for what Brooklyn has become, or is becoming.
Posted by: guest at March 31, 2008 10:16 AM
why are brooklyn victorians (eg Ditmas park) generally so ugly with massive roofs and disproportionately small windows compared to the SF victorians.
Posted by: guest at March 31, 2008 10:26 AM
10:12 is spot on. And of course, the Brooklyn connection comes from the fact that people (outside of higher end Silicon Valley jobs) cannot begin to think of affording to live in Manhattan.
And East Oakland is far more like parts of Queens and maybe Bushwick than brownstone brooklyn.
Posted by: guest at March 31, 2008 10:26 AM
10:36: enough already.
Posted by: guest at March 31, 2008 10:38 AM
10:12 --- Ha Ha Ha....YOUR DA MAN!
Posted by: guest at March 31, 2008 10:41 AM
dem some big azz cheeks!
Posted by: guest at March 31, 2008 10:41 AM
Wow riding a bike to work is so creative. Yea you are so cutting edge riding your bike and listening to your ipod with Vampire Weekend on it wow you blow my mind with your hipness, Crap getting older is so much fun, I can't wait to leave town this place is so lame, 18 years ago Williamsburg was kinda of interesting, Now it is shit like everywhere else. Please open a Starbucks there just to piss everyone off. Hey maybe they can have free bike parking there to make every rich hipster happy.My post may suck but at least It is not about the strollers and faded type.
Posted by: guest at March 31, 2008 10:53 AM
People ride bikes because its (1) healthy (2) cheap (3) keeps you fit. No-one claimed it was creative.
What a dingdong.
Posted by: guest at March 31, 2008 11:47 AM
Loved, loved, loved the comment from 10:12. Spoken as only a true artsy-fartsy, faux liberal, holier-than-thou whitebread could. May your hypocritical hipsterism keep you well stocked in PBRs, Chuck Ts, and cheap noserings for the rest of your deeply creative and meaningful life, sir (or madame)!
Posted by: slopenick at March 31, 2008 12:04 PM
I have lived in San Francisco and now live in Brooklyn. There is little comparison in terms of lifestyle. San franciscans enjoy life, savor their leisure, live well. NY and Brooklyn is all about work, work, work. People live in hideous surroundings, cut-up houses that have not been gracious since 1905. Most town houses are not subdivided in SF. If you own or rent a house, you use the whole thing. Plus you have a garage! There is no comparison. For the idiot who will invariably say that I should please move back: I'm working on it yo-yo!
There is really no comparison, and I haven't even started on the weather.
Posted by: guest at March 31, 2008 12:08 PM
I can not believe that the ip address of this person has STILL not been blocked.
Have you not noticed that commenting has dropped by 50-75% in the past 2 weeks?
Posted by: jerri blank at March 31, 2008 12:27 PM
Riding bikes is so creative. My goodness if only Jackson Pollock would have been riding a bike he would still be alive today.
Posted by: guest at March 31, 2008 12:42 PM
No offense, but San Francisco is barely a real city. New York, on the other hand, is a world capital and feels like it. Plus I dont know about the others on this thread but my Brooklyn surroundings are hardly "hideous," they're at least as attractive as anything I saw in San Fran. Space in NY in general and Brooklyn in specific is obviously expensive because so many people want to live here.
Plus I'll take real seasons over your damn fog any day of the week.
Posted by: guest at March 31, 2008 12:44 PM
Yes, all those pretentious Dutch riding their bikes everywhere. Who do they think they are.
Posted by: guest at March 31, 2008 12:45 PM
A lot of Brooklyn is hideous, but we're working on it!
Posted by: sam at March 31, 2008 12:47 PM
don't be jackin my handle
Posted by: BrooklynLove at March 31, 2008 12:50 PM
Oh my 12:44. Yea real seasons are fun, like Todays weather is really awesome! Damn Fog is better than yellow and black snow anyday of the week.
Posted by: guest at March 31, 2008 12:52 PM
I love San Francisco. I think it's probably the most beautiful city in America in many ways. It is connected to the water, unlike New York is. On most days, I forget how close the water is to my everyday life here. In San Francisco, it is an intimate part of your life.
Having said that, I have many, many friends who have moved to San Francisco and I can't think of any who haven't moved back.
They said it was incredibly difficult to capture that sense of energy that exists here in New York. It is that ONE thing that separates us from the rest of the country. That buzz, that frenetic pace that sometimes we forget about after we've lived here for a while. It's immediatley felt by newcomers though. It is what keeps New York exciting, fresh, new and creative, even when us living here think we're mired in Starbucks and Duane Reades.
That isn't necessarily what everyone else sees...
Posted by: jerri blank at March 31, 2008 12:55 PM
"I can not believe that the ip address of this person has STILL not been blocked.
Have you not noticed that commenting has dropped by 50-75% in the past 2 weeks?"
Nope, it's Brownstoner's crappy server and blocking of IP address have slowed down the posts. Also we are tired of overpriced and hideous listings. Many people who read this Blog cannot afford the asking prices of Houses, Condo's and Co-ops. The topic of discussions have been boring and inflammatory (Park Slope Vs The World).
See this Blog for what it is, a vehicle for Class and Race covert warfare. And when not if this thing crashes, Brownstoner can die with the rest of them.
The What
Someday this war is gonna end...
Posted by: guest at March 31, 2008 12:55 PM
Riding bikes while drinking Gorilla coffee and pulling your stroller and talking on your cell and listening to Vampire Weekend on your ipod. That is Brooklyn. SF is full of freaks who like the fog. Which are you?
Posted by: guest at March 31, 2008 12:57 PM
"Also we are tired of overpriced and hideous listings"
Please don't include yourself in "we"
You don't even live in the same state as "we" do.
Posted by: jerri blank at March 31, 2008 12:58 PM
SF is cool but it's a neighborhood not a city. It doesn't feel like a large city to me at all. There's also a certain West Coast thing that will always make SF nothing like NYC or Brooklyn in certain very important traits.
If SF/Oakland is more DIY, that's great but Brooklyn is not DIY. I wish Brooklyn was more DIY with its renos. It would be so much more creative and imaginative. Renos here are very yuppie and conventional and more concerned with appearing wealthy than stylish or individualistic.
Posted by: guest at March 31, 2008 1:09 PM
"See this Blog for what it is, a vehicle for Class and Race covert warfare."
Awesome! I used to think this blog was boring but clearly it's some exciting stuff an I just never noticed.
Posted by: guest at March 31, 2008 1:13 PM
We tried moving to SF when we were first married (nearly 20 years ago). The only reason we came back was because we didn't plan it right. We went w/o jobs or an apartment. It was too tough making ends meet. We thought about it again a few years ago when my husband was offered a job out there, but it was like $4mil for one of those fancy schmancy Victorians we wanted. I'd be there in a heartbeat if it was more affordable. I love there!
Posted by: rh at March 31, 2008 1:21 PM
Poor NY Times;
As it slides into irrelevancy and financial ruin, it keeps trying various ways to revive its once-formidable position in the national and local conversation. The "Style" section and stories like this are pathetic attempts to do so.
Quick question: name a major issue in which the NY Times has played a major role in the past 10 years.
Benson
Posted by: guest at March 31, 2008 1:25 PM
Lets not forget this gem:
http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.wordpress.com/2008/03/23/91-san-francisco/
Posted by: guest at March 31, 2008 1:36 PM
SF is like Brooklyn in many positive ways. Both cities are foodie havens with greenmarkets and great "cheap eats" (although nothing here compares to the 3$ Mission burrito!). I got around both cities solely by public transit (riding the 33 Stanyan up and over 18th Street was like an amusement park ride). Real estate is a popular topic in both places. One main difference was that I did spend more time outdoors and near the water on the West Coast, but I could be exploring Gerritsen beach here if I were more intrepid. Yes the DIY lifestyle is very popular in SF, but I lived there 10 years ago and everyone worked as nonprofit dogooders so we were all poor. Brooklynites definitely seem more ambitious, or maybe it just feels that way because I'm 10 years older!
Posted by: guest at March 31, 2008 1:37 PM
"SF is Manhattan, Brooklyn is more like Oakland."
I agree. I was born, educated and trained in S.F. and raised in the East Bay. I always made that parallel and then moved straight to Brooklyn in the 90's. In the BET American Gangster documentary about Oakland drug lord Felix Mitchell, Davey D from Brooklyn said the same thing. Nice thread for a change.
Posted by: guest at March 31, 2008 1:50 PM
"We live in SoMa, which is the Brooklyn of San Francisco."
Which part of Brooklyn do they mean? Brooklyn Heights? Boro Park? Carnarsie? Williamsburg?
Posted by: guest at March 31, 2008 1:56 PM
"Riding bikes while drinking Gorilla coffee and pulling your stroller and talking on your cell and listening to Vampire Weekend on your ipod. That is Brooklyn. SF is full of freaks who like the fog. Which are you?"
Yeah right. SF is full of yuppies, more than Brooklyn as a whole. They dress like shit over there too.....
Posted by: guest at March 31, 2008 2:07 PM
San Francisco is not a very good scene for singles.
It is a very couple-y place.
Same situation in Portland, Oregon (which I LOVE).
Both those cities are notorious for lacking a real singles scene.
Just something to note.
Posted by: jerri blank at March 31, 2008 2:12 PM
I have to go to SF for work, and deal with the people there. not my favorite. find them so leftist that they become fascists.
also, while parts of the city are certainly gorgeous and the waterfront is lovely, it is scary and dangerous in many parts for the average person in a way that NYC just isn't.
NYC is, as someone already posted, a world city, SF is an also ran.
i can however, see some of the comparisons. just went to the new wine tasting bar/restaurant Bridge Urban on Broadway near the water in Williamsburg, and the first thing I noticed was that it seemed like a place in SF. BTW, if you haven't heard of it - it is super cool. It's the tasting room for a North Fork winery and only carries NY state wines.
Posted by: guest at March 31, 2008 2:14 PM
The difference between SF and Brooklyn is that in SF when you ask someone what they do, you might get a response like, "I'm a wind surfer."
Posted by: guest at March 31, 2008 2:32 PM
" San Francisco...where the young retire"
William S Burroughs
Posted by: guest at March 31, 2008 2:43 PM
The MTA can't lie to, steal from, cheat or maltreat people in San Francisco. That alone is a big difference between living there and living here.
Posted by: sam at March 31, 2008 3:28 PM
3:28, I can't quite get my head around your comment.
SF MUNI is an EXPONENTIALLY and DRAMATICALLY inferior public transit system compared to MTA.
Posted by: guest at March 31, 2008 3:34 PM
"Quick question: name a major issue in which the NY Times has played a major role in the past 10 years."
Quick answer: They helped the Bush administration sell the need to invade Iraq.
And then apologized for it over a year later.
Posted by: Flatbushwhacker at March 31, 2008 3:51 PM
the bay area as a whole is way more dangerous than NYC.
I do know that
Posted by: guest at March 31, 2008 4:33 PM
SF is humorless - I think it's a lot more like Boston than NYC. the elite there are stuffy old money preppies instead of striving new money bankers or super successful people in the arts which also adds to the lack of energy there. People move there for the "lifestyle" not because they are ambitiously chasing a dream. So you get a great lifestyle but people in general are less interesting. That does mean however that life IS much more relaxing. LA is more like NYC because people also go there chasing their dream - even if the dream is far more one note (movie industry) than here.
Posted by: guest at March 31, 2008 5:40 PM
The scale of SF is way different...it's like all of NYC is reduced to a tenth. A neighborhood like Noe Valley is like Park Slope, but only has 8000 vs almost 100000. Downtown SF is tiny but does have the feel of Manhattan...for 12 square blocks. And the outer Mission etc are full of single family homes, like the outer boros, and are full of conservatives to boot.
There is no comparison between Muni and MTA! Its buses could do a third world country proud, if they ever show up after 6pm. Drivers are allowed by union rules to not show up 5 days a year without (yes) notice. And try getting any information or finding a bus map or schedule. Otoh, BART is clean and fast, but with unreasonably complex fares and few stops.
SF is clean, NYC is dirty; the weather is perfect vs so-so; the food is much better and cheaper; the level of green consciousness is much higher; but am I glad I moved here form SF? Absolutely.
Posted by: cmu at March 31, 2008 5:41 PM
lived in SF back in the early-mid 90's and i enjoyed it but i grew up in the east so i moved to NY and I have always been happy with my decision. from what i am told SF has changed quite a bit but so has NY. oh and SF has the BEST weather!
Posted by: guest at March 31, 2008 6:17 PM
SF doesn't have the best weather.
Have you been there in the summer?
The East Bay has far superior weather
Posted by: guest at March 31, 2008 6:58 PM
fun thread. for me the old saying, "wherever you go, you bring yourself" has proven true, alas.
Posted by: guest at March 31, 2008 7:12 PM
I think a lot of these posts have good points. SF is not a city like NYC or even Manhattan alone is a city, but it is the cultural hub of the Pacific. I think seasons are overrated, and I miss the ocean, but NY has a neverending stream of music, arts, etc. One thing I do have to say, though, is that NY can never really be a "foodie" city because from November to April, you can only buy really fresh food at the greenmarkets that's white or orange. No greens in winter is a killer.
Why can't people just appreciate things for what they are instead of trying to compare them to one another constantly?
Posted by: guest at March 31, 2008 11:02 PM
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