Locals Put Heat On City For Ignoring House of D Plan

These losers need to get a grip on reality. No matter how much they whine, this jail will resume operations. The needs of the inmates and the city trump those of a self-interested band of NIMBYs. Need I remind them that the city does not need their permission or input to proceed?

Posted by: guest at March 20, 2008 10:16 AM

i agree with the previous poster. I live in the neighborhood and would not, for obvious reasons, want the jail to resume operations. Nevertheless, the case for using/expanding the facility is rational and right. I don't believe, as residents, we can stop it from happening. Nevertheless, we should work with the Dept of Corrections, as the website advocates, to ensure that they are sensitive to the neighborhood needs and goals

Posted by: guest at March 20, 2008 10:24 AM

AABA's position is nonsensical -- they oppose retail with the jail, despite the fact that it would lessen the negative effects on the surrounding area. as is, the jail will reopen and expand without retail. is that what AABA wants? there needs to be a clear leader of the community groups.

Posted by: guest at March 20, 2008 10:30 AM

I also live in the hood and second 10:24s comments.

I'm sick of these whiny bi-atches who just moved into the hood and want to change everything. As a friend of mine said to someone who recently moved into Boerum Hill and was complaining about something or other, "shouldn't these folks adapt to their new environment, rather than expect that the environment will change to suit them?"

Posted by: guest at March 20, 2008 10:36 AM

I also live in the hood and second 10:24s comments.

I'm sick of these whiny bi-atches who just moved into the hood and want to change everything. As a friend of mine said to someone who recently moved into Boerum Hill and was complaining about something or other, "shouldn't these folks adapt to their new environment, rather than expect that the environment will change to suit them?"

Posted by: guest at March 20, 2008 10:36 AM

What negative effects would this jail produce?

The chief complaints I've heard include prisoners catcalling from the roof, long lines of relatives waiting to visit inmates, and the congestion created by transporting inmates to the courthouses.

These are part and parcel of operating a jail. How would any of this change simply by including a retail store in the building?

Posted by: guest at March 20, 2008 10:37 AM

I remember reading on another Brooklyn yuppie blog something to the affect of " why don't they just move the jail to a poorer neighborhood?"

word to the clueless- Boerum Hill at one point WAS a poor neighborhood.

Posted by: guest at March 20, 2008 10:54 AM

word to 10:54 -- a lot of city money though has gone into making downtown and boerum hill poor no more.

Posted by: guest at March 20, 2008 11:00 AM

10:37 -- i believe you have summarized the negative effects pretty well. add to that the effect on neighborhood character -- perceived or real -- and a stigma that may be perceived with operating jail.

Posted by: guest at March 20, 2008 11:16 AM

10:37 -- i believe you have summarized the negative effects pretty well. add to that the effect on neighborhood character -- perceived or real -- and a stigma that may be perceived with an operating jail.

Posted by: guest at March 20, 2008 11:16 AM

"I think the decision to put the jail there had more to do with the site being on Atlantic Avenue and close to the courthouses.

If anything, this jail probably made the area rapidly decline once it was opened. North of Atlantic Avenue was a decent place in the 1950s."

http://www.correctionhistory.org/html/chronicl/nycdoc/html/jailist2.html#BkHDM

The Brooklyn House of Detention for Men, built on Atlantic Avenue in 1957, is a single-cell jail that can house 815 adult males, many of whom await trial in Brooklyn and Staten Island courts.

Riddle me this Polemicist, How did the Brooklyn HOD make the neighborhood decline? That area was always decent and the the neighbors never paid attention to the jail. I think i t was lately when the asshats moved in. Prisoners are moved underground under the street and the windows are sealed. I never saw anyone calling people out of the window. If you don't like whats going on move out!

I bet you one thing, they are going to reopen that jail. I think the Department of Corrections doesn't care what the asshats of Boerum Hill think.

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: guest at March 20, 2008 11:30 AM

11:16, my question was how would a retail store abate any of these real or perceived effects?

The area around the jail is self-contained. One could be dining or drinking on Smith or Court Streets and never even know that the jail exists. I still don't see the big deal here.

Posted by: guest at March 20, 2008 11:54 AM

I'd like to see some more stats that the area between Atlantic and Livingston and Court and State "was a decent place in the 1950's" that somehow declined faster than the rest of Brooklyn did in the 1960's-1970's before ascribing any fault to the HOD.

The only real negative to this building is an aesthetic one on te skyline -- they seem to have been trying to improve the streetlevel somewhat, and I think retail would help with that.

Finally the plan mentioned in the website does not "incorporate intelligent solutions" for the most pressing need -- adequate beds for pre-trial detainees and persons doing "county" time in light of the pending shutdown of numerous portions of Rikers and in light of the delays caused by remote housing of the pre-trial detainees.

Posted by: guest at March 20, 2008 12:41 PM

11:54 -- the HOD is four blank streetwalls, not integrated with the surrounding community. good urban planning would create foot traffic around the structure to get the proverbial eyes on the street, and create some vibrancy around this relatively dead urban space. the DOC's goal is to integrate corrections into the community more -- retail would help that. retail would create the foot traffic that would bring foot traffic to the area.

Posted by: guest at March 20, 2008 1:04 PM

11:54 -- the HOD is four blank streetwalls, not integrated with the surrounding community. good urban planning would create foot traffic around the structure to get the proverbial eyes on the street, and create some vibrancy around this relatively dead urban space. the DOC's goal is to integrate corrections into the community more -- retail would help that. retail would create the foot traffic that would bring life to the area.

Posted by: guest at March 20, 2008 1:15 PM

While I agree that the design of the structure does not provide for intergration with the neighborhood as 11:54 stated, I'm not sure why so many people are opposed to the reopening of this facility. I believe there is a huge gap between the perception and the reality of this facility's impact on the surrounding residents and businesses. It's not like you ever come into contact with the prisoners. And they're not likely to escape. The population that was kept there tended to be those involved in a trial or awaiting arraignment. The average stay used to be 72 hours. This isn't the type of jail where inmates are kept for extended jail terms. For that, inmates are housed in state facilities. In fact, there's a great misconception about the city's jails. For instance, people don't spend years on Rikers Island. The average length of stay there is 43 days. Accused criminals tend to be a much more orderly inmate population. They don't want to get in trouble while awaiting trial because it can result in longer sentences or additional charges.

Also, contrary to popular myth in the neighborhood, there were never scenes of girlfriends/wives standing on the sidewalk yelling up to their incarcerated male friends. The New York Times once printed this incorrectly based on tales told to them by some people in the neighborhood. But if the reporter had done some fact checking, he/she would have found out that this scenerio is/was impossible because the cells inside the jail building are not up against the exterior walls. They are on the interiors with no windows. They are separated from the exterior walls by a walkway/hallway. It's virtually impossible for anyone in a cell at Brooklyn House to communicate with anyone on the sidewalk below also because the windows are frosted with no visibility through them.

I live in the neighborhood and I'm all for reopening the Brooklyn House of Dentention. Recent renovations that adhere to state and federal regulations for design and officer-to-prisoners ratios mean that they can watch more inmates at Brooklyn House with fewer officers. Also, having the jail right next to the criminal court building means that the inmates don't have to be transported to and from Rikers Island at the beginning and end of each day. This would afford the taxpapers, you and mean, a great deal of savings. It also means that there would be more sworn law enforcement officers, i.e. uniformed correction officers, in our neighborhood making it that much more safe on the streets due to their deterance factor. Those officers also patronize local businesses when they are on duty or coming/going from work. Local businesses always benefited from their presence when the facility was open.

Posted by: guest at March 20, 2008 1:31 PM

I used to live across from the HoD when it was operating, and the catcalling from the prisoners was definitely true. I could hear them quite clearly on Dean Street.

But the biggest problem with the HoD is the retail "gap" it creates on Atlantic Avenue. The jail plus the bail bond offices that squat across from it make it very unpleasant to walk from, say, Sahadis to the restaurants on the eastern part of the Avenue. This is AABA's big beef and why it wants street-level retail.

As a twelve-year Boerum Hill resident, I don't think street-level retail, even if it were of high quality, would solve the problem. The intersection of Boerum Place & Atlantic Avenue is designed for large volumes of swiftly moving traffic and is completely hostile to pedestrian safety.

I suppose AABA believes that some of the new construction in the area will also have the type of retail that could tempt people to risk their lives for it, as they do whenever they walk to Target.

Posted by: guest at March 20, 2008 1:47 PM

This is such a stupid debate. It's pretty clear the near-term costs of relocating the prison make it difficult to do and the city seems to want to plow ahead with the reopening and they dont need the approval of the neighborhood association to do it. Granted. On the other hand, it is downright RETARDED to try to deny that there could be a higher and better use for this location given how the area is developing around it. It really has nothing to do with whether you've been living there for years or moved in last week, the thing's a frickin eyesore and totally screws up the continuity of the neighborhood. Typical of this board that there are folks that will whine and moan about every new condo building that goes up but can't get too upset about this piece of crap and the inane plans the city keeps coming back with to expand it.

Posted by: guest at March 20, 2008 1:53 PM

I lived on Pacific Street from '90- 2003. There was nothing behind our building but a parking lot so we were essentially across the street from the HOD. I hate to refute 1:31, but we were awakened more than a few times by guys yelling down for their girlfriends to "get the bail". I don't know where they were in the building but in summer with our windows open, you could definitely hear it. At 3 am. During the day, there was always a lot of screaming when the prisoners were allowed to use the exercise pen at the top of the roof especially whenever we used the roof deck. To say that you can't hear them at all would be incorrect.

But we never had any problems with the inmates. We used to joke that we were safer living there because escapees would be more likely to leave the area quickly. The big problem was the amount of parking that the corrections officers got to use by special permit. All the blocks around the HOD were essentially a parking lot for the CO's. They never seemed to get ticketed even if parked illegally.

I think it's amazing that anyone really believed that the jail would never reopen after sinking a lot of money into renovations. Anyone who moved there should have always considered the potential for its being a working facility. When we bought our apartment the jail was just part of the picture. If we were still there, I would've assumed we hadn't seen the last of it.

Posted by: guest at March 20, 2008 1:58 PM

I dont care that much about the jail reopening - what angers me is that the city just spent 99-03 between 50M-75M fixing up the jail and then let it sit empty for years and now wants to spend hundreds of millions more before a single inmate uses it.....STOP WASTING MY $$$$$$$

Posted by: guest at March 20, 2008 2:16 PM

Hasn't AABA public OPPOSED retail?

Posted by: guest at March 20, 2008 2:24 PM

"Accused criminals tend to be a much more orderly inmate population."

Not true. Inmates awaiting trial are more volatile because their lives are in limbo. Once they are sentenced, they have resolution even if it means doing "state time" and the NYS DOC inmate rules are much more strict than the rules in the NYC DOC. Race and gender unfortunately also factors into inmate behavior. State Officers are predominantly white and male. City Officers are predominantly Black and Latino and 45% female.

"They are separated from the exterior walls by a walkway/hallway."

True. The walkway is called a catwalk.

" It's virtually impossible for anyone in a cell at Brooklyn House to communicate with anyone on the sidewalk below also because the windows are frosted with no visibility through them."

Not true. Although the inmates can not communicate during "lock-in" hours 11:00 pm- 7:00 am, they can and sometimes do yell down to the streets from the windows in the "dayrooms" which are not frosted. An inmate lawsuit forced the Department to install windows in the Brooklyn House and to keep them clean so that the inmates could see outside. When the inmates do yell from the windows, or the roof recreation yard, they are ordered to stop. If they don't, they are issued a notice of infraction. This is usually enough to get most inmates to stop. Of course you have a couple of knuckleheads on every tier who will eventually get transfered to Rikers. Officers can but will not be ordered to use force to stop an inmate from yelling out of the window. Wardens just like their Police Department counterparts are very concerned with keeping their use of force and other stat's low.

"All the blocks around the HOD were essentially a parking lot for the CO's. They never seemed to get ticketed even if parked illegally."

True. The Department has to contractually provide parking for supervisory officers. They do not have to provide parking for officers and they do not issue permits to officers. The officers permits are issued by their union. Traffic agents will rarely ticket their cars because they would then have to ticket the cars of the police, court and other law enforcement personnel who park illegally in the area.

The Brooklyn House is considered a prefered command for the Correction Officers because it is off-Island (Rikers) and the officers here get to go out for lunch unlike the officers working on Rikers. The officers are therefore usually very low key and considerate of their neighbors. Unlike the NYPD, many live in Brooklyn and take public transportation to and from work providing an extra layer of security during the early morning and late night hours while en route to and from the train stations and of course while riding the trains.

The jail which was renovated under the Guiliani administration, can open as is. It would benefit the community to try and find a resolution as to how and when it will re-open while DOC has a commissioner willing to listen to their ideas. If Rudy and Bernie were still at the helm, there would have been no conversation.

Posted by: guest at March 20, 2008 3:55 PM

The Brooklyn House does not require major reconfiguring in its present state. The facilities on Rikers Island especially the "temporary dormitories," some of which were built 20 years ago when the Department had an average daily census of 28,000 inmates, are falling apart and will have to be put out of commission. So don't worry too much about wasted money. The kitchen will get plenty of use, the windows will be looked out of or screamed out of, and employees will park around the building with its pink marble facade. If you purchased a home in the area recently, the fact that this jail would once again open should have been factored in, if you were in the area before the development of the newer condo's, you have already lived with the jail and from what I can tell are not the people so vehemently opposed to its reopening.

Posted by: guest at March 20, 2008 5:44 PM

2:24, thanks for the clarification.

BoerumHill 4:16, the reason all those costly renovations took place was because the Department of Corrections had every intention of reopening Brooklyn House as soon as they were completed. The renovations had to take place in order for the building to comply with rulings that grew out of certain state and federal lawsuits. The simple fact of the matter is, it costs the DOC less to house prisoners, even just a few hundred, in downtown Brooklyn than it does on Rikers Island. But when Mayor Bloomberg was running for re-election, his budget office vetoed the idea even though the D.O.C. listed it in several budget proposals as a cost saving measure. The presumption was the mayor didn't want to upset voters in the neighborhood. Even so, let's say it doesn't re-open now but 10 years from now the prison population explodes again. They'll need usable facilities right away in order to eleviate the overcrowding. Brooklyn House will be one of those facilities.

The reason it took so long for the renovations to be completed was an owner of the original contractor died. His son took over the business afterwards, but because of business complications following his father's death, he was unable to complete the project. The city was then in the unusual position of having to ask for bids to complete a half-finished project.

As for not meeting federal guidelines, can you elaborate on what you're talking about? I was refering to how man correction officers are required to watch over a certain number of inmates during lock up when they have clear line of site. As far as I know, the guard to inmate ratio at Brooklyn House can be much lower than it is at many buildings on Rikers.

To whoever said the building breaks up the continuity of the neighborhood, it depends on what side of Altantic Avenue you're standing on. The building matches the scale of the Brooklyn criminal court house and several other structures on that side of Atlantic. And as you go towards Flatbush Avenue, there are several other buildings of the same or greater height such as the old YWCA building.

Posted by: guest at March 20, 2008 6:02 PM

"the guard to inmate ratio at Brooklyn House can be much lower than it is at many buildings on Rikers."

It's actually the reverse. It takes fewer officers to watch inmates in dormitory settings than it does in a cell area. Officers (not guards) often do not have a clear line of sight into a cell. All of the suicides have taken place in cell areas. Two years ago the Department got a variance to squeeze more beds into the dormitory areas making those areas more effective from a staffing pointof view. However, violence increases in the dormitories because the inmate staff ratios are high and the inmates are never locked in. The Department is still not allowed to "double bunk" in the cell areas which means only one man or woman to a cell. We can advocate to squeeze as many inmates into a jail without increasing staff but we pay later when inmates are assaulted and the staff doesn't know who the perpetrators are and in compensation and 3/4 disability pensions when staff are injured.

Posted by: guest at March 20, 2008 8:07 PM

why is there no EIS on this project like they did for atlantic yards?

Posted by: guest at March 24, 2008 11:49 AM