Brooklyn Brownstones Stay All in the Family

Never ever allow your grown children to live with you. You will be doing a great disservice to them.

Posted by: guest at March 26, 2008 11:14 AM

I agree with moreteasir. I am in my late 20s married and have a baby, living in my parents basement apartment (while paying them a significantly reduced rent) has allowed us to buy a home in brooklyn - otherwise i would be destined to rent for ever or move out of the neighborhood i grew up in.

If you are able to do something good for your children why wouldn't you - to teach them a lesson?

Posted by: guest at March 26, 2008 11:36 AM

We lived in my grandparents' house until I was 10, back in the 1960s. It is an urban thing, because two- and three-family houses are permitted in cities, but not in suburbs (or at least not yet).

Back in the day, in fact, it was rare to find senior citizens living on their own, especially if they were widows/widowers. If the kids weren't living with the parents, it was the other way around.

We are becomming a poorer country. As a result of debts run up by past generations, younger people are going to be taxed much more heavily, and older people born after 1960 or so will receive far less government support in old age. And, of course, the higher taxes will make it more difficult to save for retirement on one's own.

The minority of us fortunate enough to have real families will see more of this kind of adaptation to cope. The battle will be over personal vs. social vs. an absence of responsibility for previously divorced or absent parents in old age.

Posted by: guest at March 26, 2008 11:45 AM

#2 & #3 are the lucky ones who have the option. for some of the rest of us, mired in student loan debt and unable to earn enough in our chosen careers to purchase in nyc, it's hard not to be envious - it's a very lucky opportunity. i think the bigger question to ask is what this phenomenon says about the sustainability of living in new york city. a lot of people love to play the if-you-can't-afford-it-you-need-to-move card (i'm sure many of those comments will follow), but there's got to be discussion beyond the simple capitalist-darwnist "arguement". there are many industries and services that are part of living in a city like new york that aren't going to go away, but yet aren't capable of providing all citizens with the means to have a good quality of life. this isn't about some sort of "entitlement" to living in prime neighborhoods or living a well-to-do lifestyle, either. i was reading some census information and it's amazing how many families in NYC are able to get by on very little. or, maybe they're not actually getting by...

Posted by: guest at March 26, 2008 11:52 AM

I'm 40, and when I was 15-22 it was taken as a given that you were supposed to rebel and establish yourself apart from your family as soon as you could. When I graduated from college I had the summer to find a dump to live in, but that was it, and I expected it and probably grew from the experience. But at the same time I would never impose that on my (now under 10 year old) kids just because it's The Way Things Are Done. When i recently thought about putting a lot of money into my house I asked myself if I'd be there for 20 years. And although things can change, one of the reasons I said yes is because I can see my kids being there for that long too if they need or want to be. Things have changed, partly becuase it's gotten so expensive to get educated and get your own place, but also because most people relate to their kids differently than they did twenty years ago. It's OK.

Posted by: guest at March 26, 2008 12:08 PM

my parents wouldnt let me live in the house.

haha

Posted by: guest at March 26, 2008 12:37 PM

Back when that photo was taken, it was expected that at least 3 generations would be living in a house. That's part of the reason turn of the century houses can be so big. There were no nursing homes to ship Grammy and Grandad off to, and families were bigger because it was an accepted fact that not all of your children would live to adulthood.

Now so many of us complain that brownstones aren't big enough because kids can't have huge bedrooms to themselves, or you can't put in a private bath for every bedroom. Have we gotten spoiled or what?

I think part of the reason why many families are so disfunctional is because we leave the nest too soon, with too many issues unresolved, and then only connect on major holidays. Granted, that is the only way for some people for various reasons, but the American family has greatly changed in the last 50 years, and scarcely resembles the people in that photo.

Posted by: guest at March 26, 2008 1:00 PM

As a brownstone owner, I welcome having the option in the future to have the room for extended family living. I will definitely offer my two sons the option to live at home to allow them the chance to build up savings and be better positioned to buy homes and start faamiles of their own.

Given the direction this country is headed in (greater economic inequality, economic decline, high costs of living), the future will be all about maximizing your ability to pass on and perpetuate your economic advantages in the next generation, I'm sorry to say.

Posted by: guest at March 26, 2008 1:08 PM

My family and I just bought a large brownstone together, after not having lived in the same house (and even city) since college. We're really close-knit and the cost and time to get to see each other was getting ridiculous. So finally i just looked for a big enough space where we can all live together -- my brother (30) and his fiancee, myself, my brother's business partner (they use the garden floor as their office), my parents (in their 50s) and myself (mid 20s). At first I thought I would be a freak among my peers, and thought my friends would leave me for dead when they realized I was moving BACK IN with my family (which isn't the case -- the entire family is moving in with me, ha ha). But now I see most of them either doing something similar with siblings and close friends, or at least considering it. they're also buying second homes (upstate, costa rica) with their parents.
I think if you have a healthy relationship with your family, it's a smart way to consolidate costs and to be able to live in a really beautiful, mature neighborhood. These giant houses are so sad and lonely with just one family in them. For us, it's been a really tremendous experience -- occasionally challenging because there's always the tense moment when we have to put our own petty egos aside for a general group decision -- but pretty much how I had always hoped I would live my life: close to the people I love, in a house we ALL put our money, sweat and tears into, and with room for my kids and perhaps grandkids to call home.

Posted by: guest at March 26, 2008 1:18 PM

Listen, how else can a young couple out of school, making maybe $100k combined possibly afford to buy anything in a nice area? Its going to cost you $400k or so for a nice 2 bedroom (if you can find one that cheap). How can they save, pay rent, etc., any ever hope to buy something with the current real estate prices???

Everyone here will say "they did it" but housing prices are now way out of proportion to income then they have been.

Posted by: guest at March 26, 2008 1:24 PM

Listen, how else can a young couple out of school, making maybe $100k combined possibly afford to buy anything in a nice area? Its going to cost you $400k or so for a nice 2 bedroom (if you can find one that cheap). How can they save, pay rent, etc., any ever hope to buy something with the current real estate prices???

Everyone here will say "they did it" but housing prices are now way out of proportion to income then they have been.

Posted by: guest at March 26, 2008 1:25 PM

Listen, how else can a young couple out of school, making maybe $100k combined possibly afford to buy anything in a nice area? Its going to cost you $400k or so for a nice 2 bedroom (if you can find one that cheap). How can they save, pay rent, etc., any ever hope to buy something with the current real estate prices???

Everyone here will say "they did it" but housing prices are now way out of proportion to income then they have been.

Posted by: guest at March 26, 2008 1:25 PM

1:25: It's called renting. Who says you buy right out of college? Are you for real?

Moreteasir: Did your mother also pay for college? If you had to pay, I could see how she helped you there. If she also paid for college, I would have to ask how you racked up so much debt.

Posted by: guest at March 26, 2008 1:31 PM

The trend of living with parents might be new to the suburbs and regions outside NYC. But it's totally traditional to NYC. NYC has always been expensive and most large brownstones have always had more than one generation living in them. Families who own a property large enough to house their post-college kids in NYC are at a huge advantage over families elsewhere or families in small coops or condos. Because they can provide free or low-cost housing in the best job market in the country, actually the ONLY job market in the country for certain fields if your kid chooses one of those.

In many fields, nobody gets paying jobs right out of college. Kids have to intern for as long as a year. So either they're able to do the internship nearby and live at home, or the parents have to send them money for rent.

The depression-era parents believed helping kids made them lazy. It's not true and secondly, sorry, nobody has a choice anymore in this changed economy and job market. If you can help them you do.

Posted by: guest at March 26, 2008 1:38 PM

1:00PM has very good points. it has escaped a lot of people that single-family didn't always used to mean single-generation.

Posted by: guest at March 26, 2008 1:41 PM

1:31, how are you going to save for a downpayment if you are renting?? Rents are also pretty high in a half decent area.

1:25 makes a valid point, 100K is not what is used to be regardless if you renting or owning especially if you have schools loans and other loans / expenses. Living at home allows you the opportunity to save and pay down debt, I think today if possible this is the best way to go.

Posted by: guest at March 26, 2008 1:42 PM

1:31, how are you going to save for a downpayment if you are renting?? Rents are also pretty high in a half decent area.

1:25 makes a valid point, 100K is not what is used to be regardless if you renting or owning especially if you have schools loans and other loans / expenses. Living at home allows you the opportunity to save and pay down debt, I think today if possible this is the best way to go.

Posted by: guest at March 26, 2008 1:43 PM

I left home at 18 to go to college, immediately went to graduate school and then immediately moved to nyc in 2000.

I rented for 7 years and bought my first place in PS in 2006.

I work in the arts, make less than 100K a year and have no help from family.

All of you people are lazy, entitled and don't know the value of working hard to accomplish things on your own.

Living with parents into your 20's and 30's is disgusting, in my opinion.

GET A LIFE!!!

Posted by: guest at March 26, 2008 2:14 PM

there was just a huge article recently about how pathetic italy has become with all the kids living with their parents.

one of the reasons nothing good has come out of italy for quite a while now.

Posted by: guest at March 26, 2008 2:37 PM

None of this is new for immigrants. In other countries three generations lived under a single roof. Grandparents took care of grandchildren and people took care of their parents. Each generation learned from each other and it was a way to keep a lot of the family wealth intact. Modern and western cultures emphasize independence over the family. Its very much about me rather than us.

My first generation American aunt and uncle bought a huge mansion to someday live with their two sons and their family like in the old country. Their sons and wives opted to live on their own.

Its not for everyone but like poster 1:18 I would love to live with my family on day. Its great for child care, saving money, spending time together and living greener. However, I myself haven't come to this conclusion until I've lived a fair bit on my own.

Posted by: guest at March 26, 2008 2:42 PM

rh: "What happened to compromise and living in a fringe area so you can go it alone?"

It was a product of a specific historical time--partly cultural (the baby boom era), partly economic (relatively low housing prices + postwar prosperity that gave "independent" kids a safety net to fall back on). As posters here have noted, mutligenerational houses are a much, much older, longer-standing. You could just as well ask, What happened to that?

As for me, I did compromise, get roommates, live in a fringe area and ultimately buy my own place on a tiny nonprofit salary--but that was in the early and mid 90s. I'm not so smug as to pretend that it's as easy now.

Posted by: guest at March 26, 2008 2:45 PM

I'm beginning to think that as someone in her early 30s who hasn't lived with her parents full time that *I'm* bucking a trend. Only sheer desperation would have driven me back to living with my parents.

Think about it, it's only within the past couple of generations that young adults moved out on their own.

Posted by: guest at March 26, 2008 2:48 PM

The more I read lately, the more I feel as though many people in this country are satisfied to devolve instead of evolving.

Yeah, sure. Move in with your parents and don't live an independent, productive life of your own. Why work hard when you can have it handed to you by your parents.

God who ARE you people??

Posted by: guest at March 26, 2008 2:56 PM

THat's why I was saying that when I decided to bring everyone together under one roof, I thought my hip little world of fringe-dwellers would disown me as a friend for not being "cool" and "independent" enough. Despite the fact that I supported myself through college (including paying for it myself) and can afford a nicer place on my own than most of them can.

IT IS HARD WORK to live with your family. It's a HUGE sacrifice. The kinds of collaborations, compromises and constant communication that has to occur really test your selfish little "I'm independent fuck you all" attitude. Trust me I know, cause I lived that way for years, and felt very sanctimonious about my supposed rights and freedoms and lack of accountability to anyone but myself.

but there's something much more mature about a cooperative lifestyle than anything I experienced as a me me me yuppie-to-be. And whoever said that italy has become pathetic because of all the kids living with their parents -- IT's ALWAYS BEEN LIKE THAT. So either italy has ALWAYS BEEN PATHETIC, or the reason for it becoming pathetic is something else -- like the fact that italian manufacturing completely whored itself out to the export industry, diluting the quality of all of its most important crafts trades because it wanted to cash in on easy profit. That's why italian goods like furniture, so valued in the 20 s and 30s, all the way to the 50s, completely lost all integrity in the 60s and now it's the ugliest crap on the market.

All of us work in creative fields and being able to use each other for support and imput has always been important. My parents are basically my friends, and have always been far more pioneering than the coolest kids I knew. They always taught US shit. That had nothing to do with their age, only their mentality and their nerve. If we do lack it nowadays, I don't blame living with parents (like I said, this is just the start for me), I blame learning everything sixth hand -- from the internet, television, basically the commercial machine. I try to learn from my friends,peers, and direct personal experience. you want to be isolated in order to feel "independent"? That's cool. But you might be missing a lot of challenges. I know now that I was.

Posted by: guest at March 26, 2008 2:56 PM

yes, i rented for 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005 and 2006.

that is 7 years, no?

Posted by: guest at March 26, 2008 2:59 PM

Moving "back home" is a bit depressing. But I do recommend everyone getting together on a building, starting from scratch, building something green or restoring something beautiful. It brings new life into the entire family circus. It's been fun and fulfilling for us. Please don't count it out as an option, you'd be surprised how much you can learn from one another.

Posted by: guest at March 26, 2008 3:07 PM

Moving "back home" implies moving backwards in life.

No thanks.

I'll continue doing what my parents did and make a life for myself.

Posted by: guest at March 26, 2008 3:10 PM

I would NEVER go on a second date with someone if they told me they lived with their parents.

NEVER.

Posted by: guest at March 26, 2008 3:12 PM

And obviously they made such a great life, that even their kids don't want anything to do with them. Depressing.

Posted by: guest at March 26, 2008 3:12 PM

3:12. Those things are not mutually exclusive. One can still totally love and appreciate their family without living with them.

You are extremely provincial and conservative in your thinking.

It's a little scary, to be honest.

Are you Amish?

Posted by: guest at March 26, 2008 3:15 PM

I'm an atheist and a stripper. Never say never.

Posted by: guest at March 26, 2008 3:18 PM

wow, a stripper. your parents must be so proud.

no wonder you can't seem to get a place on your own.

Posted by: guest at March 26, 2008 3:20 PM

My brownstone is open to my kid when he graduates this spring, but it's up to him if he wants to live there, and I think if things come through the way he is planning, he'll live somewhere else. I can understand his desire NOT to live with his parents. We did pay for his schooling, and together we will BOTH pay off the debt until he can assume all of it. He worked while he went to school full-time, and he's already saving. I help him when I can. He's pretty independent, but if he needs a place to live at any time, he has a home to come to. I will charge him rent, albeit not market rate. Everything can be worked out.

Posted by: guest at March 26, 2008 3:24 PM

Hahaha. now who's provincial and conservative in their thinking? Look, I was making a point; don't be get so defensive. It works for some. Not for others. You really do have to have a pretty healthy sense of self -- be trully independent, both financially and emotionally -- to be able to handle that kind of communal situation, especially if you're as individualistic as I am (an artist by the way, so pretty close in species to a stripper). If you've got any issues about your own sense of identity or goals in life, having people around you who know you too well -- including lovers and spouses -- can feel claustrophobic. I've been through that, and i'm at peace now, I know who I am, so there's no threat to my autonomy.

And you have to like your family. A lot of people pretend they do but really, they can't stand them for more than a day or two (and I can usually see why -- generational gap is huge in the U.S. for most families, they don't communicate at all).

Finally, yes, we do live in a world where we have the luxury of separating from our parents at 16. Most people in the world don't. My question to myself, when this idea of investing in a building together happened, was: "What's normal?" I mean, is it actually that natural to separate at each generation? Or should we live in clans and tribes, as we always have, as we do in most cutlures? Look at Iceland, one of the most progressive minded, evolved cultures -- teens have babies all the time, then go off to do their college degrees and masters on the continent while their parents raise their kids, then they come back and live together.

I don't know what's more conservative, family ties or being tied to the American Nuclear Family System.

Posted by: guest at March 26, 2008 3:31 PM

And just to clarify, my experience isn't one of mooching -- going back to living with my folks, using their food, using their home. I'm talking about joining forces on a living space. It could be a factory you convert (as my dutch friends and family did years ago, which was partially the inspiration for what we did). I'm talking about already having grown up and deciding to invest your own hard earned money together.

As far as the article, and kids moving back home -- I reserve judgement. I don't know anything about that. I know I could never do it.

Posted by: guest at March 26, 2008 3:37 PM

3:33...you don't know me. And you sound like a really bitter, hateful woman.

My parents have been happily married for over 30 years, own two homes outright and have probably a million dollars in savings. They are wonderful people who raised me well. Don't think either of them ever even took a puff of a cigarette and they look down heavily on drugs of any kind. Don't quit your day job to become a psychic anytime soon. If you even have a day job.

I simply do not want to live with my parents because I think becoming an independent adult is one of the best and most inspiring things in life.

Obviously you have some deeply rooted issues with the fact that you mooched off mommy for so long.

Go take it up with your therapist, instead of an anonymous blog about real estate, please.

Posted by: guest at March 26, 2008 3:54 PM

4:07:

I don't value my life in dollars and cents. I have a very happy life, own property in the city I love and work a job I can't wait to go to every day.

Single mother, huh?

Sounds like you made some really bad decisions in life.

Sorry to hear it.

Maybe one day you will realize that you should spend a little more time on trying to be happy, instead of telling others what they have done or not done with their lives.

I have met a few women in my life like you and it's sad to see how someone so young can be so full of bitterness and hate.

Posted by: guest at March 26, 2008 4:14 PM

"I would NEVER go on a second date with someone if they told me they lived with their parents."

Amen to that.

Posted by: guest at March 26, 2008 4:17 PM

i want to know why someone who was raised in the projects let her mom sit there and fester while she racked up "six figures" in the bank.

sounds like bullshit to me.

little education and sex, i mean, six figures, eh?

Posted by: guest at March 26, 2008 4:17 PM

moreteasir, you're hilarious. Thanks for cracking me up. And I don't know about your psychic powers but you sound pretty on the mark in terms of riling up the uptight crowd. ;)

Posted by: guest at March 26, 2008 4:21 PM

I would never go on a second date with someone who says "Amen to that." EVER. What are you, some kind of jesus freak?

Posted by: guest at March 26, 2008 4:25 PM

only in America would someone give praise to a bitter, young, single mother who apparently hates people who were blessed to have not been born in poverty (i.e. 99% of people on this blog)

Posted by: guest at March 26, 2008 4:25 PM

Who goes on second dates? You guys are like from some kind of provincial Amish conservative church group cult.

Posted by: guest at March 26, 2008 4:27 PM

I don't know, I kind of think Moreteasir is the grown up in this bitch fest of who's more "independent". I mean, yeah, you may have the luxury of being born right on the asshole manufacture belt, get pumped out of your house by your "Be a man, son! Get a job at McDonalds!" idiot dad. But some of us are "unlucky" (?) enough to have real problems and real complexities in our family structure, and we deal with them on an individual, case by case basis. Hence a genuine independence of spirit, mind and bank account.

Posted by: guest at March 26, 2008 4:34 PM

"I left home at age 15-1/2 and never looked back. The great thing when you come from a fucked up family like I did is that there is no question of going back."

Wow. It's too bad I grew up in a relatively stable, loving family who let me live at home until I was ready to split (age 22). I might have not found my way in life!

Posted by: guest at March 26, 2008 4:36 PM

It's kind of hilarious cause my dad TOLD ME to leave young. So I did what I was supposed to do -- "rebel" while actually being a submissive runt. Now, when I invited him to join me in developing this house, he was the submissive runt, scared shitless but really excited to do something completely new and unusual. So all those stereotypes of what we think rebellion, "making my own life," independence, are -- are just that, stereotypes. In the end, doing what's right (by your kids, by your parents, by your self -- and/or by yourself) is what matters. Let the cliches die already. Try to examine things from other perspectives.

Posted by: guest at March 26, 2008 4:42 PM

"There's no way most kids graduate from college and are ready for what life throws at them....making it through college is one thing, readying them for this rat race is another. Forcing them out at 21ish is probably the worst thing you can do...."

I couldn't disagree with you more, moreteasir. Like others on this thread, I left home at 18, went to college, and was living on my own at 22. My wife and I saved and bought an apt. in Brooklyn without any help from family. I also earned a graduate degree without help from parents. My siblings and most of my friends followed the same path and managed to do just fine in life.

While I love my family, I would only live with them in the event of an emergency (e.g. burned out of home, natural disaster, etc.), because I've always valued my independence and derive a sense of pride from self-sufficiency.

Also, if I lived with my parents, I'd have to reside in Western NY, which to me is worse than homelessness :)

Posted by: guest at March 26, 2008 5:04 PM

People who live with their parents after graduating from college are losers.

Posted by: guest at March 26, 2008 5:11 PM

If I had to live with my parents, I'd have to hear how George Bush has been the best, most brave president we've ever had.

I think I'd rather slit my wrists and sit in a bath tub filled with vinegar.

Posted by: guest at March 26, 2008 5:20 PM

I am so with 2:56 #2. I'm moving back to NYC this summer (With husband in tow) and we're living in my parents' house for 4 months so we can renovate the house that the whole family chipped in on that happens to be located right behind my parents. Okay, so these two houses happen to be in Park Slope, and maybe I wouldn't be so excited to live with my parents and so close to them for the rest of my life if they lived in the middle of nowhere. But my parents are my best friends, as are my siblings. They are all amazing people, and I can't think of anywhere in the world better than right through the backyard from them. We're hoping my sister will take some floors in our house someday, and my brother can have the top floors of my parents' house. Here's to family communes!

Posted by: guest at March 26, 2008 6:18 PM

i wouldn't be able to have the amount of sex i want by living with my parents.

Posted by: guest at March 26, 2008 6:48 PM

"I would NEVER go on a second date with someone if they told me they lived with their parents."

Even if his parents owned a brownstone in Brooklyn Heights or Park Slope? And he was living there because he's trying to save money to BUY not rent?

Don't think so, honey. You'd SO be there. And if not, your loss.

Posted by: guest at March 26, 2008 6:55 PM

I never got laid when I lived in Alphabet City. Granted it was a six floor walkup and by the time we were upstairs, after a long night drinking and smoking, we had just enough energy to, say, pass out -- hopefully not impaling ourselves (not on each other) in the process, considering the rather tight quarters I lived in.

Now that i've got a floor of the brownstone I share with the family, in what's apparently an irresistibly sexy part of the city, I need a stick to keep the boys away. Of course it's not me-- the very thought of me, a daughter of parents living in the very same structure -- makes these boys run for my gorgeous marvin windows and hurl. However, they seem to all have this insanely disciplined willpower whereby they just focus on the crown mouldings, golden sunset light oozing over my wide plank floors, and the scent of a freshly lit fire crackling in the distant fireplace (the spaces are HUGE), and all of a sudden. . . . . the sixty seventh date is in progress.

Of course, it could also be the presence of one of the other women in our household, my brother's girlfriend, that brings them here like moths to flame; she's drop dead gorgeous and smarter than your average MIT physics prof. So maybe they're just using me to get to her . . . . ? Or am I just using them to distract their minds from that horrific realization that . . .

I LIVE WITH MY PARENTS!!!!!?????!?!?!???

Posted by: guest at March 26, 2008 7:24 PM

I say living OFF your parents is low. I'm talking 4 story brownstone, great living space.

Prince Andrew is still at Buckingham palace. Eat me.

Posted by: guest at March 26, 2008 9:03 PM

I moved in with my parents when I moved home to NYC to go to graduate school. Upon graduation I got a job outside of NYC and promptly moved out to start my life as a "grown-up". Six years later I returned, older and wiser and promtly moved back home. Not because I couldn't afford a place on my own, I certainly could have, even without a roomate. But by the time I returned my mother had died and my then 80-year old father was living alone.

He didn't need care, was still ambulatory and would walk to the train everyday to ride downtown for breakfast and then go do volunteer work. But my being there meant I didn't have to worry that he was okay. I paid the mortgage and the utilities so he could keep his SS for things he liked, and in exchange I got to know my father as an adult. It was an experience I wouldn't have traded for the world.

Posted by: guest at March 26, 2008 11:10 PM

11:10, pardon the inadequate phrase, but YOU ROCK.

Posted by: guest at March 27, 2008 8:45 AM

6.55 - if he's living with he's parents he's a loser no matter if he's saving up

Posted by: guest at March 27, 2008 9:23 AM

People, there is more than one successful model for living a fulfilling, productive life, and for relating to one's family. Stop the nasty judgments.

Posted by: guest at March 27, 2008 11:29 AM

New York did not invent multiple generations living together. This happens everywhere and has for a very long time. Every group does it and has for generations everywhere. I would hazard a guess and say lLeaving home right away is less the norm.

Posted by: guest at March 27, 2008 12:00 PM

9:23 STOP PROJECTING. You obviously heard that term used a lot growing up. That's sad and scary and a big part of this topic -- parents and kids having f-d up relationships. Anyway, the term loser means nothing; go see a shrink, get over it, and most importantly, don't be so hard on yourself. No amount of money or so-called independence will make you feel better about yourself. You gotta start from within and accept who you are, as you are.

Posted by: guest at March 27, 2008 3:35 PM