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February 14, 2008
Toll Brothers' Gargantuan Gowanus Plans Revealed
HOLY COW! Gowanus Lounge has scored a tremendous scoop by unearthing the "scoping document" Toll Brothers filed with the Department of City Planning for its planned development between the Gowanus Canal, Bond Street, Carroll Street and Second Street. The firm is certainly not thinking small: Toll wants to build a 605,380-square-foot development with 577 units of housing (130 of them affordable), 2,000 square feet of "community space," and 2,000 square feet of retail. The buildings would be 4-12 stories tall. City Planning is going to hold a public scoping meeting on the project early next month. Toll Brothers has been looking to get a jump on the larger rezoning of Gowanus in order to move forward with the development, which it says it could complete by 2011.
The Starting Bell: Toll Brothers Reveal Gowanus Plans [Gowanus Lounge]
Toll Brothers Big Gowanus Project Revealed [Curbed]
Rendering from Gowanus Lounge.
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Comments
This is awesome.
So there.
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 11:04 AM
Uh, Toll Brothers is nearly bankrupt.
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 11:05 AM
I wish I had been able to attend the DEC meeting Tuesday night so I really hope some of those who did go can post a brief rundown about the suitability of housing on the canal.
I already posted on Curbed saying that I don't think these can be condos because they need to remain under one owner. If they are rentals at least people can get out quick when their children start growing a third eye. I also posted on Curbed that I think someone should do a scoliosis study - I seem to know my fair share of adolescents (including boys) with the condition and no hereditary link.
The plan looks like the Oceana.
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 11:06 AM
I just bought one of the penthouses. So there!
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 11:06 AM
"Based on current traffic and deposits, we are not yet seeing much light at the end of the tunnel," said Robert Toll, chairman and chief executive officer. "Buyers seem to be hiding. The market's problem is a lack of confidence, not just regarding the direction of home prices, but...the overall economy."
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 11:09 AM
Not Going to Happen In Our Life Time.
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 11:11 AM
Great for the Area. Can help bridge Park Slope and Carroll Gardens. Just keep it clean.
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 11:11 AM
The thought of this makes me ill. I live on 2nd St which is all 1 & 2 family houses. Kids still play outside but that will end with so many strangers using 2nd St to get to the subway. If this project was scaled back a bit(like 3rd & Bond) I could support it. I'll fight tooth & nail to keep this from happening!
Posted by: cggirl at February 14, 2008 11:14 AM
I hope this does happen. As someone who lives up the block from the development site it would be an asset to have Bond Street full of life and legal activity as opposed to the desolation and drug deals that happen at night. If a grocey store is part of the planned retail space then it is even more of a bonus. Ever since Skeeve Food closed the area has been without a grocery store. Sure you can go to Met Food on Smith or Henry Streets or Good Food but the variety is limited and the prices can be unreasonable.
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 11:16 AM
New York environs is saving Toll Bros's behind. Compare the 'B+' that Jersey City/Hoboken/(add Brooklyn) received versus 'F' everywhere else.
Nov, 2007 NYT:
The best grade, B-plus, went to Toll’s “city living” apartment projects in the New Jersey suburbs of New York, while similar projects in the city received a B, as did Princeton, N.J., and the states of Delaware and Connecticut. The suburban New York counties of Dutchess and Putnam, which he views as one market, earned a C-plus.
The F-minus grade went to the vacation communities of Hilton Head, S.C.; Palm Springs, Calif.; the Maryland shore; and the Poconos area of Pennsylvania, as well as to Michigan and Atlanta.
The F grade was the one most often given, going to Arizona, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Minnesota and Southern California outside of Palm Springs. The cities of Chicago; San Antonio; Charlotte, N.C.; and Reno, Nev., got the same mark, as did the eastern and northern parts of Florida. Mr. Toll noted that Minnesota had improved to get its grade up to an F.
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 11:17 AM
11:05 and 11:09--except for Toll Brothers Urban. That unit is doing very well, at least for now.
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 11:17 AM
too small
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 11:17 AM
130 of 577 units will be affordable. The remainder, it seems, will not be affordable.
Someday this will indeed by a revitalized area. I agree with poster above: Not in our lifetime.
Posted by: Hal at February 14, 2008 11:18 AM
Toll Brothers is not "nearly bankrupt". As of today, the Company's publicly traded stock has a value of $3.5 billion. They are the best capitalized of the major homebuilders.
Posted by: Boerum Hill at February 14, 2008 11:18 AM
"Anyone savvy about real estate knows that Gowanus is going to be the hottest new neighborhood in NYC."
C'mon, man! This website is about overpaying for $3 million brownstones in prime Slope, not about benefiting from real estate development. Get with the program!
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 11:20 AM
me and the tWhat are gonna get a homo-erotic love nest here.
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 11:23 AM
Here is why this will not happen in our lifetime:
Developers are stupid, the city and state are too, but there is one thing they are keenly aware of and that is the Tort Bar of America.
Lawyers will be salivating to see this thing built, because all it will take is 1 person to come down with cancer, and they will pounce. They will find 1 micron of PCB's or some other pollutant and the class actions will start rolling in...
Posted by: newsouthsloper at February 14, 2008 11:27 AM
I think they meant completed in 3011.
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 11:28 AM
No one is going to financially benefit from this project unless you are a Toll or win a lawsuit when you or your kids become ill. These are most likely going to be rentals. If you believe Gowanus is a going to be the hottest neighborhood there are things on the market now you can buy or contact the Third and Bond developers.
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 11:29 AM
It will be impossible to get flood insurance there.
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 11:30 AM
11:11 -- what makes you think CG wants to be bridged with park slope -- we kinda' like our DMZ...
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 11:31 AM
Lawyers will be salivating to see this thing built, because all it will take is 1 person to come down with cancer, and they will pounce.
We already are...
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 11:32 AM
Flood Insurance? I think Cyclops insurance may be more in order.
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 11:33 AM
Two words: Love Canal.
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 11:33 AM
I agree 11:20... As downtown becomes HOT This area is going to be the place to live...
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 11:35 AM
They are 11:36 - They just havent found a culpable party to pin it on yet. At least in this case it will be a no-brainer for them.
Posted by: newsouthsloper at February 14, 2008 11:38 AM
Will the development include any 4-story, 25-foot wide, detail-rich brownstones, close the park, at reasonable prices?
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 11:39 AM
"They are 11:36 - They just havent found a culpable party to pin it on yet. At least in this case it will be a no-brainer for them."
Who, the 19th century gas manufacturing company?
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 11:42 AM
No 11:42 - The developer for knowingly building on a contaminated site, the city for issuing permits and alowing the site to be built, and the State for not properly cleaning up the site before construction began.
Posted by: newsouthsloper at February 14, 2008 11:50 AM
11:42 - how about Toll Bros to start....
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 11:51 AM
This development is PERFECT for all the stroller-hating slopers. No self respecting parent would live there, exposing their child to untold pollutants, so it'll be a single person's (and barren couples') playground! There will be lots of bars and restaurants and art galleries to cater to their free time, disposable income, etc. And much like retirement communities, there would be restrictions on children, checkpoints, etc.
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 11:53 AM
"Toll Brothers... Insiders remain heavy sellers at that company, with $17.6 million in proceeds garnered from share sales in the past six months. It perhaps reflects the worldview of CEO Robert Toll, who remains pessimistic about the industry."
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 12:01 PM
Toll Brothers may, for now, have a market cap of 3.47 billion, but the most interesting number is the P/E ration: 99.59.
Rather reminiscent of dotcom bubble valuation, don't you think?
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 12:08 PM
Will they have a marina where I can park my yacht?
The What
Sometimes...
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 12:11 PM
The State probably isn't responsible for remediation. If the site is contaminated, the developer can apply for admission into the State's brownfield cleanup program. They'll be required to remediate the site according to strict guidelines and with the oversight of the Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC). In return, the developer gets a liability release which prevents them from being sued (theoretically DEC could be held liable for approving the cleanup if adverse health effects ensue).
They are also potentially eligible for tax credits associated with the cleanup, but thats another story all together.
So no, there won't be any "lawyers salivating."
Posted by: clintonhillbuyer at February 14, 2008 12:11 PM
project to include 260 underground parking spaces...
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 12:22 PM
12:22 - I think they mean underwater parking spaces.
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 12:28 PM
A cyclical company like Toll Brothers is not going to be valued based on a current p/e ratio.
Posted by: Boerum Hill at February 14, 2008 12:38 PM
I realize I'm channeling The What, but I just gotta say: "Laugh my f***ing ass off!" Quite apart from the years of industrial pollution here, the city still has no plan to fix the Gowanus canal's sewage overflow problem. Enjoy the view, suckers!
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 12:40 PM
I AM IN DEEP, DEEP PUPPYDOG LUV WITH "THE WHAT"
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 12:41 PM
"The State probably isn't responsible for remediation. If the site is contaminated, the developer can apply for admission into the State's brownfield cleanup program. They'll be required to remediate the site according to strict guidelines and with the oversight of the Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC). In return, the developer gets a liability release which prevents them from being sued (theoretically DEC could be held liable for approving the cleanup if adverse health effects ensue)."
Earth to ClintonHillBuyer and other Cheerleaders - The City and State are in a huge hole, developers, including Toll brothers, are hurting bad, the real estate market is faultering...Where exactly are any of these people going to come up with TENS or HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS to do something like this?
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 12:42 PM
Cancer.
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 12:42 PM
Interesting that Toll is going through with this perhaps they see something we don't, like: where are all those Gen Y kids going to live in the next few years when they're done with college, have jobs and incomes, and Mom and Dad finally kick them out?
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 12:44 PM
I notice in the rendering that the cool silo building at Gowanus & Carroll is gone.
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 12:48 PM
"where are all those Gen Y kids going to live in the next few years"
Maybe the other thousands of condos that are coming on the market?
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 12:50 PM
Gowanus will be worthless once AY is built.
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 12:56 PM
Yes, Gowanus will be worthless once AY is built and Fourth Ave. is built up because guess where that sewage is going.
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 12:59 PM
What are you saying, 12:44? What did my parents tell you?
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 1:00 PM
AY will be worthless once this is built
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 1:32 PM
I am a lawyer who did environmental work for an industrial company with a facility along the canal.
I can't name names or provide details, but I can tell you that you do NOT want to live anywhere near Gowanus.
Even if they do actually dredge the canal, that will stir up more toxins and increase the problem.
You have been warned. That is all.
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 1:38 PM
What if the toxins increase penis size? This could be the best neighborhood in all of the USA.
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 1:54 PM
Lawyer, Liar.
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 1:55 PM
"I am a lawyer who did environmental work for an industrial company with a facility along the canal"
Meaning you routinely sell you soul defending environmental polluters. Congrats.
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 2:01 PM
"The What" plays the scumbag attorney
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 2:27 PM
This could be Gyllenhaal and Saaaaarsgaaaard's first flick together. Mags as crusading mother of two and Peter as the ruthless yuppie developer with toxic blood on his hands.
Buscemi, Turturro and John Ventimiglia play three homeless Gulf War vets who live in a squat that's endangered and post on Brownstoner on the side.
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 2:37 PM
I smell Oscar!
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 2:39 PM
Can gonorrhea climb walls or penetrate glass? Just asking.
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 2:44 PM
Cameo by John Hodgman as Maggie's gay neighbor who watches the kids!
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 2:44 PM
2:01, if you are an industrial company, you are a polluter. Maybe that's why there aren't any more industrial companies. Except in China.
The next Cat III hurricane that blows thru here will take care of both the pollution and the Toll Bros development. 20' storm surge right up the gowAnus.
There's a reason it's a flood zone.
Another reason to sue!
Posted by: denton at February 14, 2008 2:50 PM
The rendering shows a small dock on the water to the left of a kiosk or gazebo. This would be a perfect place to launch a kayak.
There may be some young photographer/artists who can process film in the canal for free. A great convenience.
I still contend that the area will not be completely revitalized in our (ok MY lifetime (I'm 53)). Sure, some development will begin, but it will be a long time before the people who can afford the units other than the affordable ones will want to live there.
Make no mistake, however. I am absolutely in favor of well planned development that improves quality of life in Brooklyn.
Posted by: Hal at February 14, 2008 3:05 PM
how is the gowanus not a superfund site?
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 3:48 PM
Dunno, 3:48, but some day it will host the Super BOWL. Campaign to build a football stadium on the shores of the Gowanus starts.... NOW!
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 4:49 PM
2:37 best comment of all time.
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 5:22 PM
The Gowanus needs a storm barrier. I imagine that costs a ton, since it needs to be able to open up for all that water traffic on the canal. Has anyone heard of any discussion about a hurricane or storm barrier, whatever they are called? Any chance of that or will my house go under the next big one?
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 5:24 PM
Two words: Buy floaties.
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 5:36 PM
I work in the insurance field - The Gowanus is defiantely ripe for major flooding event. I am talking serious toxic sewage waste flooding Al La New Orleans.
If you live within 3-4 blocks of the canal and are less than 15 feet above sea level, you stand a very good chance of being underwater with even a strong CAT 1 Hurricane. A Cat 2 or 3 would put most of the area in the Gowanus neighborhood and alot of CG,and Boreum Hill underwater. Anything stronger (Yes it is possible and if history is any lesson, definate at some point) would turn much of South Brooklyn into the largest natural aquarium on the planet. Next to lower manhattan of course which would be under 10 feet or more of water up to Canal and even Houston Street.
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 5:50 PM
Thank god I live in Prospect HEIGHTS.
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 5:58 PM
And if that hurricane hits, how long before the subways are all functioning again? Weeks? months? Years?
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 6:02 PM
^^^ Debbie Downer ^^^
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 6:18 PM
man, what is the point? time to take my car, climb mount washington and wait for the frickin' apocalypse. thanks for nothin', 5:50!
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 6:36 PM
6:36 - Your comment is asinine. I am just giving you tibits of what I know from various insurance related studies and worst case scenarios. Do you think the people in NOLA would have fared a bit better with this info? Maybe when the storm is coming someone will remeber what I am saying and take the evacuation order seriously and not drown.
"thanks for nothin', 5:50" Your welcome idiot, I prefer to go through life without a blindfold on - I guess you dont.
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 7:10 PM
yes 6:36, you are welcome, i think its better to live my life with a blindfold on too.
Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 7:44 PM
Well, 7:44 and 7:10, it's clear you both live YOUR lives with large poles shoved up your asses. So, to each is own.
Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 9:31 AM
Yeah 9:31 That makes alot of sense - "Dont tell me all of the real and possible bad things that could happen in my life so I can enjoy my friction free daze of a life."
Any atempt to alert others of possible danger or reality means you must have a pole up your ass. Real good one....
Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 4:38 PM
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