A Little Love for Prospect Heights

I cannot understand why the neighborhood has not yet been designated a historic district. What the heck is going on?

Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 11:13 AM

Not bad but overrated neighborhood. Poorman's Park Slope, which is even more overrated.

Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 11:21 AM

Judging from what people have already done to these 'historic' homes, they don't want the LPC coming in and telling them what they can and can't do. Why give away your right to do what you want to your house? You can't have a roof deck or a sola panel because some idiot walking down the sidewalk will be offended? You can't paint your door red because someone didn't want to 100 yeas ago? The fact that it isn't landmarked is what is attractive about the area to me.

Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 11:23 AM

Prospect Heights is where we would have bought a house a couple years ago, if we hadn't fell in love with a house in another up-and-coming neighborhood. The transportation options are very good, which is key for us, and it has the feel of a special little enclave in some areas which is nice. Diamond in the rough for sure on some blocks, but when looking for a relative bargain that's what you should be looking for anyway.

PH needs to be a historic district and it really deserves more appreciation from people.

Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 11:26 AM

Based on current home prices, I don't think PH is lacking appreciation, in any sense of the word.

Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 11:31 AM

We are currently in the process of becoming a historic district and hopefully in the next year or so this will happen. This is widely supported in PH.

Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 11:36 AM

Most of PH has 131 foot lots, too. One of its great secrets is it has some of the most beautiful gardens in Brooklyn.

Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 11:56 AM

"Industrial" yes, "grandeur," no.

Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 12:08 PM

MM, when it becomes landmarked, do the current things get grandfathered in or do people have to take off all the non-compliant roof additions and change their windows?

Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 12:23 PM

I have the same question 12:23... I live in SH but I would love to extend Stuyvesant Heights Historic distric and from some areas of BS like Jefferson, Hancock, Halsey, and some parts Macon to be LM. I found the paper work that was done in the 70s to landmark SH and it seems like a lot of work. But I love architecture and history so I would love to take part in this research.

Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 12:31 PM

Lovely neighborhood where some guy was murdered with a corkscrew a few days ago and his 11 year old found him.

Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 12:36 PM

Thanks so much Montrose Morris.

Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 12:49 PM

Doesn't the LPC cover backyards too? I never understood why, but I thought I read that here at some point. Do they just over look all the stuff that would never pass the DOB like roof decks and non-permitted extensions or do they narc on people?

Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 12:54 PM

I'm so glad that people are paying attention to PH. It sure it a Poorman's PS, and that's why we can afford to live there.

Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 12:55 PM

"It sure it a Poorman's PS, and that's why we can afford to live there."

Judging by some of the most recent brownstone listings, it is no longer the "poorman's PS". It will be interesting to see how those sale prices fare.

Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 1:00 PM

Nice try, 12:36. Stats from 2007 showed nearly every murder in NYC were committed by people who knew the victim. They were not crimes committed by strangers. All the truly scary people are in the suburbs. Case in point, every single school shooting ever, in this country. Total nutjobs in middle America.

Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 1:06 PM

Brownstoner:

This neighborhood was Crown Heights when I was growing up nearby in the 1950s.

Back then, Crown Heights extended from Fulton Street to Empire Boulevard between Flatbush and Kingston Avenues. And the soon-to-be-landmarked area was one of the "poor" sides of the neighborhood.

It's all in the branding, of course, that's tied to real estate values, and as development from Prospect Heights sweeps over Washinton Avenue, I'm sure real estate agents will start saying Nostrand Avenue is part of Prospect Heights, too.

Of course, not all people will buy the sales pitch. Some of my family members, fourth generation Park Slopers, still don't know what the other side of Flatbush Avenue is called. "That's Bedford Stuyvesant, isn't it?" one asked recently. "No," I answered, "they call it Prospect Heights now, but it was Crown Heights when we were growing up." "But it's still not safe, is it?" she replied.

Old assumptions die hard, so I thought the best thing to do was to take a group of us on a drive on the other side of Flatbush. (So circumscribed is my family's Park Slope life that they didn't know how to get to Eastern Parkway!)

The Parkway looked great, and so did many of the sidestreets, especially within the Crown Heights North Historic District, where I was a youngster. Buildings restored. Old houses in good shape. And a wonderful variety of architecture, more varied, in fact, than Park Slope, and more colorful too (probably because the neighborhood's housing is newer and built during an architecturally eclectic period). Even some of the apartments were as I remembered, right down to the awnings over the sidewalk.

As Crown Heights continues to improve, I hope the residents insist on keeping its name. It would be a fitting tribute to them and their hard work in keeping things up.

What a great visit, after more than 45 years away! Next time I'm going to have to spend hours -- on foot.

Nostalgic on Park Avenue

Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 1:10 PM

that is funny I moved to St. Marks btw Flatbush and Carlton back in 1999 and all my native NY cousins told me to be careful you live in Crown Heights and it is kinda sketchy esp labor day weekend... I corrected them and told them no Prospect Hts and they all got a good laugh. Now I see RE ads that have PH all the way to Franklin. I sold my condo last year for a little more than double and brought a house in Bedford Stuyvesant... oh sorry Stuyvesant Heights...

Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 1:29 PM

Nostalgic on Park Avenue:

You are too reasonable, humane and grownup to post on this website. You might be more comfortable somewhere else.

Like reading your stuff, though.

Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 1:30 PM

agree 1:30

Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 1:31 PM

1:29:

Your family has a better sense of Brooklyn geography than mine. (For them, Park Slope extends from Grand Army Plaza to Third Street, Prospect Park West to Seventh Avenue. Anything else is beyond them!)

Glad the old neighborhood helped you get a house in Bedford Stuyvesant.

1:30 and 1:31:

Thanks. There's something about Brooklyn that makes people feel good. Whenever I visit, I want to curl up on a stoop and take a nap, just the way I did back in the day. (You can take the boy out of Brooklyn, but you can't take Brooklyn out of the boy.)

Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 2:11 PM

"Nice try, 12:36. Stats from 2007 showed nearly every murder in NYC were committed by people who knew the victim. They were not crimes committed by strangers. All the truly scary people are in the suburbs. Case in point, every single school shooting ever, in this country. Total nutjobs in middle America."

Not to mention that the crime to which 12:36 refers took place in crown heights, on Park b/t Classon and Franklin.

Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 2:16 PM

Can anyone comment on the impact a historical district designation has on property values? My apartment just barely sneaks into the boundaries of one of the PH historical district proposals.

Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 2:18 PM

Brenda:

Enjoy your posts, too. I get the feeling you grew up in Brooklyn, too. Perhaps we even passed each other in the toy department at Abraham and Straus (Macy's to the newcomers here) -- although I won't hazard to put you in my generation.

NOP

Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 2:18 PM

Thanks for clarifying the neighborhood border issue. Indeed, this murder occurred in Crown Heights, a much more violent neighborhood than Prospect Heights.

Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 2:43 PM

From what I've gathered reading these blogs, from family (5th generation Bkln myself, though I was not raised here), and doing some research, a lot of the neighborhood names that do date from the 19th century (you see references in old newspaper articles for example), fell out of common usage when the neighborhood became poor (e.g. Clinton Hill and Fort Greene being called Bed Stuy; Prospect Heigts being called Crown Heights etc.). Those not living there who did not really know much about the area to begin with just called it Bed-Stuy or Crown Heights etc. and it stuck, from what I can gather, especially with new residents who didn't know the neighborhood history when they moved in in the mid to late 20th century. On top of that, we all know that realtors push to change borders, and definitely make up neighborhood names too.

Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 2:47 PM

2:47:

You're right. Social maps keep changing. Crown Heights North was advertised as Bedford as late as the 1920's. But the WPA guide in 1930s calls it Crown Heights. Then as the African-American population grew in the 1950s-60s, it was subsumed by Bedford-Stuyvesant.

My brother, WASP-y in his Brooks Brothers suits, gets a kick out of telling new acquaintances that he's from "Bed-Stuy." Invariably, they blink rapidly, and the ice in their scotch starts to clink.

He enjoys it, thoroughly.

NOP

Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 3:08 PM

Prospect Heights as a name has certainly existed since the 19th century. It could be viewed as a neighborhood within a neighborhood: we are still part of CB8 which covers all of the greater Crown Heights area.

There are a lot of misconceptions about the "burdens" of landmarking. Some exterior changes have to be approved by the LPC but for most jobs the process is pretty simple. All the LPC folks I've met have stressed that they want to work with homeowners, not against them. And there are jobs that need no approval like replacing a flat roof. I've even heard them say publicly that there may be circumstances where they would approve aluminum replacement windows instead of wood. They try to be flexible. Also LPC can't MAKE you do anything, they can only regulate changes that homeowners themselves decide to make. For example, if your house lost its stoop they can't make you put it back.

Regulations regarding the rear facade are less strict but do exist. Rightly the LPC is concerned about maintaining the "donut hole" of contiguous open space in the middle of a brownstone block. Also zoning rules still apply. So if, as is the case in much of PH, your house is underbuilt according to the FAR formula, you can still build an extension. It just has to meet LPC's aesthetic/contextual standards. My supposition -- and that's all it is -- is that this requirement may eliminate some of the cowboy contractors and their fugly constructions. They just won't want to take on a project that requires LPC oversight.
I would be thrilled if it put an end to situations like the "stealth" demolition of a beautiful house on Park Pl btw Vanderbilt and Underhill or the construction of a 1.5 storey vertical addition to a 3 storey house on St Marks nr Carlton -- which looks like nothing so much as a shoe box cum stucco bunker atop a lovely old brownstone. The rear extension caused an outcry by blocking sun and light from neighbors' interiors and backyards.

Btw, there is MASSES of useful info on the LPC website (at nyc.gov) including a great FAQ developed for Crown Heights North residents that is totally relevant to PH residents. There's also a study done in 2003 that documents that landmarking causes home values to increase.

Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 4:02 PM

In 2003, breathable air caused home values to go up. Things might be different now.

The problem I have is that if the LPC isn't making mortgage payments, why should they have a say in what color I paint my stucco shoebox bunker.

Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 4:39 PM

Gee, 4:39 pm, I guess it's called living in a community and trying to do what's right for your neighbors and your local heritage -- not just yourself.

Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 6:07 PM

To 4:39 - well if you are living in a stucco bunker you probably aren't in an area targetted for being an historic area, so you don't have to worry. Also, the borders are drawn to include the worthwhile buildings and omit the newer or less historic ones.

Posted by: guest at February 15, 2008 7:00 PM

Thanks, MM.

You bet I enjoyed my visit, but what I especially liked was one of my family member’s (FM) change in attitude as we drove around.

FM is a sophisticated and well-travelled (if not in Brooklyn) woman. Like East Siders of yore who never went to the West Side except to go to Europe (taking the ocean liners of the day), she never goes to other parts of the borough except on her way to JFK.

As we turned into Eastern Parkway from Grand Army Plaza, she was sure we were in Bedford Stuyvesant. No, I explained, this is Prospect Heights. “But we’re going to Bedford Stuyvesant, aren’t we?” “No, this is the way to Crown Heights,” I answered. Then, as we got to Kingston Avenue and the housing projects, her nervousness was palpable. “But this IS Bedford Stuyvesant!” “No,” I said, “but so what if it is?”

But then we turned toward Grant Square, approaching the Imperial Apartments on Pacific Street. In the winter’s afternoon light, its beautifully restored facades looked gold and white. “It’s like the Dakota,” FM said. “Uh huh,” I said. “Maybe a little better.”

Then we went down Dean Street by a row of shingle-faced row houses with gable roofs. “They look like houses in Chicago on the Gold Coast,” she said. “Except these are little larger,” I said. “Chicago tore down most of the ones this good for apartments.”

And eventually, when we crossed Eastern Parkway to Union and President Streets, an area of free-standing brick and limestone houses, FM gasped, “It’s like London, either Greenwich or Hyde Park!” “See what I mean?” I asked.

Also nice to watch was FM’s change in aspect. She became visibly relaxed, turning her head this way and that to catch some interesting building or architectural detail. It was a very cold afternoon, too cold to get out and walk around, but we agreed to do it some time. And this, by a woman wary of going to Park Slope’s Sixth Avenue!

For me, Crown Heights looked much smaller than I remembered. When you’re a youngster and can barely see over the hoods of cars, streets can seem almost too big to cross. Now ones like Dean, Bergen, and St. John’s appear to have a nice, residential scale. And six-story apartment houses that seemed to stretch forever now look rather intimate, and with the typical Crown Heights’ Tudor and neo-Georgian touches, almost cozy.

But one building for which I had absolutely no memory knocked me out. The Union Methodist Church on New York Avenue (that’s what it’s called, right?). How could I have forgotten this enormous Romanesque -Revival brick pile, especially when it was directly across the street from my old school, P.S. 41? In any other city, it would be the pride of the town! Then I decided it was probably too big for me as a little kid to comprehend. Because it’s a full block wide and the tallest thing around, I would have had to stand far back across the street and crane my neck over cars to take it all in. What a discovery!

Next time I’ll have to get out of the car so I can get up close to the buildings. There’s a lot of brick, stone, and granite in Crown Heights that not only make the area look great but give it a special tactile quality. The way brownstone steps feel under your rump as you kick back watching your pals on the street. The way stone and granite keep their heat or cold even as the day’s weather changes. The different ways stone or brick walls bounce a Spaldeen.

Thanks, MM, for encouraging me to visit the old neighborhood. I don't think I would have done it if it hadn't been for your postings in Brownstoner.

NOP

Posted by: guest at February 16, 2008 1:57 PM

montrose morris = idiot

Posted by: guest at February 21, 2008 3:28 PM