New Big House Retail Idea Making the Rounds

Interesting choice of Trader Joe's, considering this is an extremely recent rendering. Maybe they know something we don't about the TJ's that was supposed to be across the street....

Posted by: guest at February 13, 2008 9:09 AM

barboza's going to shoot herself and the community in the foot by opposing any mitigation of this plan. DOC can build the jail, period. let's get some retail in there, please. the community groups should focus on not allowing bail bondsman to set up retail shops, that is all.

Posted by: guest at February 13, 2008 9:16 AM

A great place for Chico's Bail Bonds.

Posted by: guest at February 13, 2008 9:34 AM

I agree with 9:16. It'll be interesting to see how they address the security issue, and it'll be interesting how they get reputable retail tenants to lease and to stay in the space.

Incidentally, why is TJs so slow to expand into Brooklyn? They should have at least two stores open in this borough already--certainly there's the business for it. Wonder what it is about their corporate culture that makes reasonable expansion so hard. They're model seems really adaptable to the realities of a particular place.

Posted by: guest at February 13, 2008 9:43 AM

Hey, TJ's is all about "going with the flow" and "taking it as it comes." They wear Hawaiian shirts, after all. Just chill out and when they open, they'll open, all right? Jeez.

Posted by: guest at February 13, 2008 9:51 AM

I'll be excited if TJ's opens up at Court/Atlantic by 2012.

Posted by: guest at February 13, 2008 9:54 AM

Law enforcement supply store. Handcuffs. Badges. Bullet-proof vests. Mace.

Posted by: guest at February 13, 2008 10:04 AM

What in the hell is Trader Joe's??

Posted by: guest at February 13, 2008 10:05 AM

The city wants retail at this location - not because it is concerned about the neighborhood - but because they want the revenue.

One day someone will ask why the city is paying 100's of millions of dollars to fix up a facility that hasnt been used in years.

The city would be better off selling this parcel to private developers and building the jail somewhere cheaper (near the Federal MDC seems logical) - it is nonsense that the reopening is due to transportaion costs - the BHD is next door to the OLD Brooklyn Criminal Court which is used only for arrainments (where the defendants arent in jail yet) and misdemeanors - where the vast majority of defendants are not being held. Supreme Court is 3 blocks away at Jay street and requires bus transportation.

I am not NIMBY - I have no problem with the jail being used but I do have a problem with the city putting another 100M (after the last 50M) into a facility that isnt even being used and for which could be sold and relocated CHEAPER.

Posted by: guest at February 13, 2008 10:29 AM

A three block bus ride from BHD is preferable to an hour long ride from Riker's. Plus, people charged with misdemeanors are often held overnight. It makes sense to house these people near the court.

Posted by: guest at February 13, 2008 10:39 AM

The city's mismangement and its waste of tax dollars on this site is scandalous. Fifty million dollars later they have an obsolete facility that is half the size they need. Even by government standards this is disgraceful. As for the future, I would expect more of the same. It is still the same people in charge. The same push and pull of politics and money. I will not hold my breath for the debut of a fabulous shopping arcade on the site.

Posted by: guest at February 13, 2008 10:47 AM

Hey, 10:04, is it getting hot in here or what? I'm blushing.

The jail is an offense to the eye. It is an oppressive towering symbol of humanity's failure, aimed, like a middle finger, at the residents of South Brooklyn.

We need to Howard Roark that sh$t. Force these corporate-party tools to build the jail where the courts are, and not where mothers and children live.

I still say turn it into a glossy, jail-themed hotel with big searchlights on the top and a rotating penthouse bar called "Murderer's Row". Where's my CBA? Daaaamn.

Posted by: guest at February 13, 2008 10:50 AM

10:50 - The jail is directly next to Criminal Court (there are underground connections between the two) and down the block from Supreme Court. How much closer to the courts could it be?

Posted by: guest at February 13, 2008 10:57 AM

10:39 - Misdemeanor defendants who are held awaiting arrainments are held AT THE CRIMINAL COURT - only defendants with bail set go to Jail (Rikers/BHOD)

That being said - there are plenty of locations that are within 2-3mi which the city could rebuild the jail on and at the same time take advantage of the higher land value of this amazing location (a retrofit is more expensive then ground up construction.). A 2mi bus trip does not cost significantly more or take significantly longer then a 3 block one.

That being said - reopen the current facility (for which 50M was recently spent upgrading) and demonstrate that the facility is NEEDED. If transportation costs are major justification - why do we need to expand the facility to take advantage of it now??

Posted by: guest at February 13, 2008 11:08 AM

Condos, hotel and school all flopped here, but why has no one explored office space? Particularly government office space. They own the property, they want something done with it, they always need office space. They should cut a deal with a developer to build and lease back office space or a new court or something in the space around the jail (with retail at the base), then empty out a nearby government building and sell *that* to be turned in to condos. Makes financial sense for everyone, disguises the jail, and it's good for the community.

Posted by: guest at February 13, 2008 11:14 AM

Hey, 10:50:

That's what I'm talking about! - 10:04

Posted by: guest at February 13, 2008 11:15 AM

10:29-three words for you: never gonna happen.

Want more words? The only way the jail will relocate is if someone can find a (a) big enough site, (b) more-or-less as close to the courts, (c) in Yassky's district. You think there is enough political muscle to put a new jail in the Navy Yard? I don't, but let's just put that idea to the side for now. Your other suggestions are?

Let's see, we could tear down Borough Hall...no; that's a landmark. Uhh, instead of partnering with Ratner, the College of Technology could do a deal with the Department of Corrections. Now we're thinking outside the box! Anything else?

Posted by: guest at February 13, 2008 11:19 AM

How about Eastside of Columbia Street - South of Atlantic?

Posted by: guest at February 13, 2008 11:31 AM

Yes it makes a ton of sense to sell this jail and build a new one elsewhere. The chances of that actually happening are somewhere south of zero. There's not a neighborhood between here and the north poll that wouldn't launch a nimby campaign like you've never seen before. You think AY is bad? They just want to put condos over train tracks. A jail on the waterfront? You are delusional.

Posted by: guest at February 13, 2008 11:37 AM

11:37 is correct. The NIMBY battle that would ensue if the HOD were proposed to be moved anywhere else would be monumental.
The city officials really don't know what to do about the facility and were praying that a private developer would help them out of the wilderness. But the RFP for a mixed-use developemnt on the site failed and now they are back to square one. It is a mess.

Posted by: guest at February 13, 2008 11:45 AM

11:37 is correct? What am I, chopped liver (from Trader Joe's)? VTY, 11:19

Posted by: guest at February 13, 2008 11:50 AM

Okay I (11:31) am fine with that - then OPEN the current facility as-is! Stop throwing more money down this black hole, the current facility has been upgraded - it is close to the courts and it is ready to go - so open the thing up already and stop with the nonsense.

Posted by: guest at February 13, 2008 12:05 PM

I don't think the facility is ready to go. It is a 1960's relic that is unsafe for both the guards and the inmantes. I assume this is why it has not re-opened yet. This is a bigger mess than they are letting on. They will need to demolish the current building and build a new facility but they have to figure out how to save face in regard to the scandalous waste of 50 million dollars.

Posted by: guest at February 13, 2008 12:21 PM

1221 - the building had just completed a 10-yr $50 million rehab in 2003 when it was closed - the rehab included upgraded fire and safety systems as well as new inmate intake area, visitor reception,new facade and 40,000sq ft of expanded space. The jail is safe, modern and ready to go - and if it is not someone should be immediately indicted.

Posted by: guest at February 13, 2008 12:51 PM

This illustration is just funny. They're showing Trader Joe's and Sisley, you're much more likely (at best) to get Associated and a few 99 cent stores. What retailer who cares the slightest bit about their brand image would locate below the freakin jail? Plus you're pretty much guaranteed bail bonds and maybe a few pawn shops. All class, all the way.

Posted by: guest at February 13, 2008 12:52 PM

I think retailers are more interested in neighborhood demographics, walk-in traffic and square footage than they are about what's above them. Who even knows what's upstairs from most of the places we eat and shop in? Nobody looks any higher than the awning.

Posted by: guest at February 13, 2008 1:23 PM

and if it is not someone should be immediately indicted.

I don't know about indicted but people will have a lot of egg on their face. The way these things work is that no announcement will be made until certain people move on with their political careers and certain others vest and retire. Then blame can then be placed on those who are no longer there. It is called "kicking the can down the road".
It is what public sector folks do. If the facility were ready to go, they would have filled it by now, but there is a problem.
Asbestos? Lead? fire safety? Who knows, but it is an albatross and no one wants to see the shit hit the fan on their watch.

Posted by: guest at February 13, 2008 1:29 PM

THERE IS NO PROBLEM WITH THE FACILITY - they arent using it because it is not needed.

Posted by: guest at February 13, 2008 1:48 PM

If it isn't needed why don't they sell it?

I think it is desperately needed. especially when they close parts of Rykers as they are supposed to be doing even now. You can pretend you know what goes on there, but I suspect that there is much that is not public. That building has been empty for ten years, what condition do you suppose any building would be in if left empty for ten years?

Posted by: guest at February 13, 2008 2:03 PM

"Plus you're pretty much guaranteed bail bonds and maybe a few pawn shops. All class, all the way."

AGAIN: LAW ENFORCEMENT SUPPLIES! Guns. Nightsticks. Tasers. Bullets. Practice-range targets.

Posted by: guest at February 13, 2008 2:15 PM

The building has been empty for 5 years but don't the facts stand in the way.

Posted by: guest at February 13, 2008 2:16 PM

I think it has been closed and under renovations for longer than five years. Anybody have the real number of years?
Anyway, whether shuttered for five, seven or ten years, it is probably in pretty rough shape and will needs hundreds of thousands if not millions more to make it work. Think about things like elevators and kitchens not being used for five years. Forget it. This building is a dead hulk.

Posted by: guest at February 13, 2008 2:28 PM

just don't get caught shop-lifting ...

Posted by: guest at February 13, 2008 2:41 PM

Luxury condos, ''The Big House'' along with outdoor space, ''the Yard'....

Posted by: guest at February 13, 2008 2:53 PM

I don't think y'all need to worry about the thousands of dollars it may take to get the jail ready for re-use cause that will be in the same budget line AS THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE EXPANSION! ...and the construction of the retail, as well, unless Barboza cuts off his nose to spite his face.

Posted by: guest at February 13, 2008 2:53 PM

It hasn't been sitting empty -- it's being used for arraignments and there's definitely activity there. I know someone who spent 36 hours or so there a few months ago. I don't know about every room or every floor, but I suspect the toilets and elevators work just fine.

Posted by: guest at February 13, 2008 3:02 PM

If everything works just fine why is it empty? Are they waiting for a holiday to reopen? What?

Posted by: guest at February 13, 2008 3:40 PM

No idea, but they have said they want to expand it whether that's part of a larger project or not; maybe they don't want to fill it up if they are going to have to empty it again in a few months for construction. The holiday theory is also a good one, though.

Posted by: guest at February 13, 2008 3:47 PM

3:40, it was mothballed. There is a court order to close some buildings on Rikers. The 'prison ship' in the Bronx needs to go into dry-dock for repairs. Now it's planned to be re-opened and expanded. I was in the House of D' not too long ago. It looked basically ready for occupancy.

If I was Martin Horn and I read the comments above, I'd say, "fuck all of 'em; no more meetings; no more presentations; prepare the construction drawings." But Horn is a much nicer person than me. It's just the truth.

Posted by: guest at February 13, 2008 3:54 PM

It is not being used for arraignments - arraignments are done next door at Brooklyn Criminal Court and the defendant's are held in the same building pre-arraignment.

The $50million rehab was done (mainly while the facility was OPEN) from 1995-2003 - the facility was closed in 2002. And it is not shuttered (i.e. no one in there) it is still guarded and maintained by corrections and can be opened in weeks if necessary. The city doesnt need it now but PROJECT a use in the future (with the expansion it is not expected to open till 2012 earliest).
This jail is a WPA project for the (private) contractors who do the work -

Posted by: guest at February 13, 2008 3:59 PM

if they want to double the size it would be cheaper and faster to tear it down and start over. Plus they could build a modern facility then rather than a mongrel half new/half old/all fugly thing.

Posted by: guest at February 13, 2008 4:13 PM

I bought an apartment at 53 Boerum, across the street from this facility, when that condo was first for sale. At that time the jail was closed and unlikely to reopen. Once it became clear something was going to happen here I decided to sell the apartment. I just didn't believe in the area any longer. This was a while ago - a bit before the real estate market started to get 'cooler'. I sold the place for roughly breakeven considering broker and other fees. It's a real shame they cannot come up with another solution - the city is basically destroying real estate value of tax paying, investing citizens in favor or convenience for criminals. Not appealing.

Posted by: guest at February 13, 2008 4:14 PM

4:14
Well in fairness, the criminals were there before you. And a civilized society needs jails. The judges are not going to go to the prisoners, so the prisoners need to be brought to the judges who are in the big old and new courthouses Downtown. Bad call on your part thinking that they were going to close the facility.

Posted by: guest at February 13, 2008 4:27 PM

4:14 - glad you got out - but if you were lead to believe that the jail was unlikely to reopen then you got "sold" - b/c the city ALWAYS said they intended to reopen the jail.

Posted by: guest at February 13, 2008 4:33 PM

Did anyone see the submissions to the RFP? What did developers propose?

Posted by: guest at February 13, 2008 11:12 PM

11:12, the one response--which came from a developer of other property in the area, I believe--called for tearing down the jail and redeveloping the property. Since the request for expressions of interest, it was an RFEI not an RFP, was for private development that would be part of an expansion of the jail, the submission was deemed "non-responsive."

Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 7:11 AM

Anyone hwho bought at 53 thinking the HOD was closed for good is an idiot. And the HOD has not hurt prices of units at 53 or other coops nearby (unless you think a 25%+ increase in 3 years is not acceptable). And it did not hurt prices (before 53 was there) in the last real estate run-up.

The city always said it would transfer people from Rikers to the HOD when Rikers is remodeled. Crime was down -- they had space. They did the prudent thing by moving people to another facility so they could update the HOD while the resident population was low.

Anyone who bought in downtown expecting all the governement buidlings, inc. the HOD, to disappear is crazy. The reason Downtown Brooklyn prices were less than in other areas was already factored in. That why the 2 beds at 53 were only $599K when it was built.

Posted by: guest at February 14, 2008 11:27 AM