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February 11, 2008
From the West Village to Fort Greene, With Few Regrets
This weekend’s real estate section in the Times has a story that’s likely to resonate with many ex-Manhattanites who’ve moved to Brooklyn and find the living across the East River a whole lot easier. The article is about Hali Lee and Peter von Ziegesar, a couple with three kids who uprooted from the West Village, where they’d lived for 15 years, to Fort Greene. The pair bought a house (a former crack den, actually) on South Portland Avenue in late ’05 and say that while they miss a few things about the city (chief among them their old proximity to the Village Community School on West 10th Street, which their kids still attend), Brooklyn has presented a number of quality-of-life advantages. The perks, according to Ms. Lee, include an environment that doesn’t feel like a “high-end mall,” as the Village did; a space where their brood’s noise doesn’t disturb the neighbors; their new borough’s “down-to-earth” population (“There are mixed-race couples, and black people here who aren’t nannies”); and the fact that their kids can now go play on the sidewalk and in the backyard.
In a House, You Can Make All the Noise You Want [NY Times]
Photo by lunalaguna.
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Comments
I thought it was a sweet story.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 9:54 AM
They sound like nice, well-rounded, down-to-earth people, but they're still from Manhattan. You know what that means . . . . my old-school gut tells me there must be something inherently condescending, elitist, snobby, and ignorant about them. It's just so disheartening to see all the crackhouses getting gentrified by the likes of these poseurs who know nothing about the real, old, authentic Fort Greene.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 9:55 AM
Yes, the neighborhood would be so much nicer if we could just bring back the crack addicts!
Actually, I thougth they seemed like a very nice family.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 9:56 AM
"Blackpeople who aren't nannies" Gee, thanks for the compliment.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 9:59 AM
Uh, did my sarcasm not come through in my post earlier (9:55)? Or does everybody need another cup of joe this morning?
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 10:01 AM
9:59 -- I'm assuming you're black, or just indulging your PC-ness on behalf of us blacks. Yeah, I was struck by her bluntness in that sentence too, but if you read the article, she's just a minority making fun of the cliche white country club/mall that West Village has become. Though I did wonder if it would've bothered her if someone said "At least in Fort Greene there are asian women who aren't manicurists". OR maybe she would've laughed. I think she would've just laughed, judging from her acerbic wit in the article.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 10:08 AM
Hey Thank you Peter and Ms. Lee I feel validated now for living and owning here for 20 years.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 10:08 AM
Attention money lefties: want to live among real black people but don't want to be mugged. In Ft. Greene they have actual black people who aren't nannies, but are sanitized so that they won't mug you. You can feel authentic and cool...and safe, all at the same time. Of course, you can try Bed Stuy or Crown Heights, plenty of what you are looking for their except for the not-getting-mugged part.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 10:12 AM
Ms. Lee is from the Midwest
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 10:13 AM
Oh God here come the "we were here first"s.
It's the New York Times, buddy. They're always a tad late in the game. It doesn't mean you discovered the neighborhood -- I think the 100+ old buildings attest to that -- it just means you survived its warzone days. What do you want, a medal of honor?
Here's my theory for all Ft Greene pushing. (Did you guys see the PULL OUT SECTION in this weeks Time Out devoted to Ft Greene????) I think that 90% of the publishing world now lives on South Portland and it benefits them to keep the real estate on their block cooking.
I mean, it's a nice neighborhood, I love it here, but the attention's getting a little shill-y for my taste.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 10:14 AM
10:12 thanks. I should add that Bed Stuy and Crown Heights also happen to be a bitch to get to, but yes, the violence and visible poverty are kind of a downer.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 10:16 AM
Meet your new neighbors: The Smuggersons!
Don't these people get joint pain from patting themselves on the back so vigorously?
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 10:21 AM
I've heard much worse from people in Philadelphia (New York's other other suburb).
A woman was afraid to walk to a restaraunt because a white person shot another white person in the neighborhood.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 10:21 AM
This seems to point out one of the major differences between neighborhoods like Fort Greene and Clinton Hill and neighborhoods like Park Slope and Carroll Gardens. People with young kids buy in the former when they can afford to send their kids to private school, where as many people buy in the latter when they can't afford to make the mortgage payments and send their kids to private school. Obviously people buy in PS and CG who do send their kids to private school but there are certainly as many, who can not.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 10:23 AM
I think all of this recent press for Fort Greene must have something to do with the Forte getting ready for occupancy, perhaps in tandem with 1 hanson -- the Time Out pullout was explicitly financed by the Forte, so one has to be a little critical of all these recent articles.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 10:25 AM
Not sure what your point is, 10:23. Houses in PS and CG are more expensive than FG and CH precisely because the public schools are better.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 10:31 AM
I read that story and thought, "where did these two get all this money?"
From3 floors in West Village to Ft Greene brownstone (plus renovation costs) plus 3 kids in fancy Village school. She's in non-profit, he's that old chestnut "freelance writer/filmmaker". Is it just me or was there a major piece of the story missing here? The part of the story that is missing from MY life!
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 10:31 AM
10:31 -- Amen!
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 10:34 AM
the most telling part of all--they are so bummed to get on the st ann's waitlist year after year! let's see, 3 kids, $27,000 each per year, yep, these guys have over $80k to spend on schooling, without a mention of the dire straits the FG/CH public schools are in. when you've got extra dough like that, i guess it doesn't matter.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 10:34 AM
10:23. Forte (and other) downtown condo developers underwriting puff pieces on 'funky-cool' Ft Greene. Nothing more likely to get under the skin of the true neighborhood people.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 10:34 AM
10:12=10:16 which equals the height of stupidity.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 10:36 AM
They inhereted a pile of money, 10:34. And the daddy grew up in New Canaan, CT (the WASPiest place on earth) so he's still trying to cover his tracks with this salt-of-the-earth schtick.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 10:36 AM
10:31 -- trust fund, baby!
When I read this I crossed my fingers and hoped, for these people's sake, that brownstoner wouldn't put the story up to be dissected. There's so many spiteful people on brownstoner and I could just imagine the shit these newbies would get for literally just existing. They happen to sound like the kinds of people -- funny, relaxed, honest -- who are cool neighbors. They're not pontificating about their roots in brooklyn or pretending they're so close to their community. They just said: we wanted room and a place to yell and scream, and since we come from the West Village, that area better be pretty nice to look at cause that's what we're used to.
People in Brooklyn are so friggin uptight about being the very thing they are: small-minded provincials. Don't be so paranoid, no one wants to take your pride away by showing you up with their private-school kids and their trust funds. IT's NEW YORK CITY, this place is chock full of well-to-do people. Get over it. Live your own life.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 10:39 AM
I'm not sure what 10:23's point was, but I agree with his/her observation. It's nice to move into a neighborhood, but if you are shipping your kids off to private school somewhere else (and Bklyn Hts private schools count as somewhere else), you just aren't part of the neighborhood the way you are when your kids go to the local school. In fact, I think FG houses are as expensive as CG now, despite not having nearly as good public schools and that's because many people moving in are doing exactly what 10:23 says, and don't care about the public schools.
Are Fort Greene schools improving now? They should be, to reflect the changing demographics there. When you get more people with money to donate and willingness to be involved, the school's should improve, unless those family's are using private. And, this is not a race issue -- PS 58 in CG, which always served a largely white neighborhood, was also avoided by newcomers until new families started to make a commitment to send their kids there. (Or at least, could no longer get variances to send their kids somewhere else, and had to send their kids there).
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 10:40 AM
"We were used to living in old neighborhoods where you can sense the ghosts and spirits of whoever lived there before."
Can you sense the drug-rush of the crackies who used your pad to get high before you moved in?
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 10:42 AM
the surest sign that they are clueless is the fact that they consented to be in the article in the first place. There are many many people in this city with their same attitudes, but a few notches up on the smarts scale, who would be aghast about anything that publicly put the lie to their "we're just ordinary folk" schtick.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 10:43 AM
10:40 -- good point. Though, to be fair, it's their choice where they send their kids to school. But it would be WAY cooler if they gave the public school system a shot. Then again, if you had the extra money to burn, would you? IT's a valid question -- do you want to help improve the school system in your community so much that you're willing to deny your kids a better education, assuming you have that choice?
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 10:45 AM
10:14AM = Baby Blogger (from a we were here firster)
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 10:46 AM
"People in Brooklyn are so friggin uptight about being the very thing they are: small-minded provincials."
Word!
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 10:46 AM
That is a cool owl though
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 10:47 AM
As a Black woman who always gets mistaken for a neighborhood nanny, I was not offended at all by Ms. Lee's comment. I know exactly what she meant. If you do happen to be a nanny there is no shame in that but when you are not, it can be tiresome when people assume that you are. My husband early on in his career was always assumed to be an orderly instead of a physician. I am happy that they are happy in Brooklyn.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 10:48 AM
Am sure they are nice people. My problem is the NYTimes and their unapologetic upper-middle or rich class perspective on this city - all their Style, Real Estate, Travel,etc articles can make my stomach churn. Same old articles week after week, year after year.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 10:48 AM
10:31 again. Well, I'm fine if someone says, "we're so lucky to have inherited some money/found a finger in my burger and sued McDonals" or whatever. But this article seemed to go out of the way to stress the "salt of the earth" aspect of this family. They seem nice! But if you're going to point out that they work in creative, non-paying fields or that she is from Midwest (NYT code for 'wokring class'), etc, you need to talk about the money.
You can say "it's NEW YORK CITY" but I'm saying it's JOURNALISM. Tell me the whole story. I think you have to point out how you do it. Because it's the real estate section and I wanna know HOW DO YOU DO THAT? I want to do that!
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 10:49 AM
Most of these posts are petty, petty, petty. You should thank these people for opening their lives up and giving you something to read on Sunday morning. sheesh.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 10:53 AM
Uh, doesn't the article say they SOLD their Village co-op for $1.9? Why does anyone care where they got their money? It's not your business.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 10:55 AM
10:45am - it depends on how much better the private school is. No one wants to send their kid to a failing public school, or a dangerous one, but given the choice, I far prefer a good elementary public school education for my kids than the privileged one that you get at NYC privates.
However, I know I'm the beneficiary of parents who, as 10:23 pointed out, moved into those neighborhoods without the option of going private and had to improve the schools so that the following generation of parents could come in to an already good school. Hopefully, Fort Greene is also attracting families who need to use the public schools and will work to make them excellent. (Perhaps they are already, sorry I don't know much about the zoned public schools there except for the fact that so many people seem to attend schools in other neighborhoods.)
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 10:57 AM
First of all, this thread is making me a little sick. Some of you have some serious low self esteem to be disecting a seemingly nice family who moved to Brooklyn. Really pathetic.
And secondly, I didn't find the black comment in any way racist or disturbing. I did find it factual, however. How many black people really do own or rent in the West Village. I'd say next to none.
I found that comment more indicative of the reason why a lot of people move to Brooklyn. At least people who are open minded and enjoy diversity.
Which is, quite frankly, a lot more than I can say for most of you on here.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 11:00 AM
"My problem is the NYTimes and their unapologetic upper-middle or rich class perspective on this city - all their Style, Real Estate, Travel,etc articles can make my stomach churn. Same old articles week after week, year after year."
True, dat. Last week is was the 30-year-old couple (she's 'writing her first screenplay') who just bought a $4mn townhouse in London. Like the Ft. Greene couple, they too had a brush with souless high-rise living, in Hong Kong. $4mn can usually cure the souless-housing disease.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 11:00 AM
I agree that these people are idiots for sharing their story with the NYT. Why bother? It just invites hateful comments from most people who read it, and I find it an invasion of privacy. You KNOW the journalist was salivating as soon as Ms. Lee uttered the "black people who aren't nannies" comment.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 11:00 AM
11:00....almost ALL my neighbors are young 30's who own 3 million dollar homes.
It's not like finding a needle in a haystack.
Every time you all complain about how this house and that house is overpriced, you need to think about these people.
Lots of people are working hard right now trying to get a step up the ladder.
Meanwhile you're sitting here commenting on brownstoner asking why so many people have so much money.
See any irony in that?
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 11:04 AM
"I found that comment more indicative of the reason why a lot of people move to Brooklyn. At least people who are open minded and enjoy diversity."
Are republicans and Bush supporters welcome in diversity-approving Brooklyn?
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 11:04 AM
"Are republicans and Bush supporters welcome in diversity-approving Brooklyn?"
Not the hateful, racist ones.
The rest are welcome.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 11:06 AM
"Lots of people are working hard right now trying to get a step up the ladder.
Meanwhile you're sitting here commenting on brownstoner asking why so many people have so much money."
The people featured in the NYT articles weren't so busy making money that they couldn't take time out to blow-hard to newspaper reporter about their fabulous lives.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 11:07 AM
But the London housebuyers made the money part clear: he worked in finance. He made a zillion dollars. They made that clear
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 11:08 AM
Most all my neighbors who have bought 2mm houses are lawyers/bankers. It's no mystery.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 11:09 AM
they don't need to worry about it, 11:07.
seems to me they already have some money.
you aren't going to get your 2 million dollar brownstone by making asinine comments on this blog, that's for darn sure.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 11:09 AM
Someone said:
"Not sure what your point is, 10:23. Houses in PS and CG are more expensive than FG and CH precisely because the public schools are better."
That's EXACTLY 10:23's point, silly. The neighborhoods with top public schools are more expensive, therefore, follow me here, those who pay the bigger mortgage to buy in those neighborhoods can usually not also afford private school on top of that mortgage. 10:23 was illustrating the conscious choice people make about where to buy, based on whether they know IN ADVANCE they are going to choose public or private schools. In the case of this article, these people didn't want to move their kids from the school they already attended so they bought in a more affordable neighborhood. Pretty logical, not a weird choice no matter how you twist it, sorry!
We too are not big fans of public schools, based on personal experience. As kids we attended both public schools (good ones) and private schools and did way better academically and socially in private schools. So we bought in a more affordable neighborhood knowing we'd be choosing to pay for private schools regardless of where we lived. We're hardly alone. It's just hard for some people to accept not everyone worships public schools.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 11:10 AM
My dad is the head of admission for a top liveral arts college, and he said he always looks more highly on kids who come from public schools and do well.
Private schools are nothing more than bought educations, he says in many circumstances.
He says the lack of culture in most private schools with regard to music, art, etc put them much farther down the totem pole when looking for students to admit to college.
I went to public school all my life, went on to top masters and doctoral program and now at 32, am highly successful.
Those who send their kids to private school should know they are doing their kids a disservice.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 11:14 AM
"Black people who aren't nannies"? These people are incredibly sheltered!
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 11:16 AM
omg. lack of music/art in BROOKLYN PRIVATES? you know not of what you speak
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 11:17 AM
hey 11:14...
Lack of culture re art and music in private schools? Maybe you're confusing religious schools with what most of us call 'private' schools'.
Posted by: denton at February 11, 2008 11:18 AM
I know that when admitting students to one of the top schools in the Northeast, private school kids don't do as well.
Period.
And as a professional musician, I know A LOT about what I speak.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 11:19 AM
11:04: No.
Meanwhile, I want to echo the poster above who shares the nausea I feel every time I pick up the Style section (and most other sections, actually) of the NYTimes.
It's common for reporters to suffer from envy of and identification with the rich and powerful people they cover, and to betray those futile aspirations in their stories. But nowhere in the world can you read such constant, desperate class envy, such fawning over wealth, as in the NY Times. It's gross beyond belief.
Memo to the Times: You can cover the fantastic riches of this city without getting drool all over your pages.
Posted by: Rehab at February 11, 2008 11:19 AM
OOPS:
10:48 -- you totally read my mind with the comment: "My problem is the NYTimes and their unapologetic upper-middle or rich class perspective on this city - all their Style, Real Estate, Travel,etc articles can make my stomach churn. Same old articles week after week, year after year."
But I suppose that who their clientele is -- dare I say it -- US! I mean we all read this crap. WE all read brownstoner.
And that's ok, like 10:49 put it, most of us just want that life. I certainly do, are you nuts? FIRST OF ALL, just to be in a marriage for long enough to have 3 kids who seem totally happy and well adjusted. Heck, I'd settle for that in Idaho. A happy family. Plus, they get to do it in style, in NYC, on a gorgeous block. URRRGHGGGGGH!
But like someone else pointed out, I think they made their money because they were "newbies" in the west village at some point and waited it out until the the real estate market added a zero to the value of their property.
How they bought it in the first place? Probably with help from the parents. Who, I'm sure, have been paid back every cent for their initial investment and then some.
If anything, this is to me a story to learn from.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 11:20 AM
11:16....Why are they sheltered for speaking the truth??
I'd love for you to find statistics on how many African Americans live in the West Village.
I guarantee you it ain't a lot.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 11:20 AM
Brooklyn used to be a place to get away from the money-is-everything and money-defines-who-you-are strain of life in Manhattan.
Trouble is, it's become that. It's bourgeois, money and status-centered. Bankers and lawyers buying $2mn brownstones. All under the veneer of being laid-back and 'jusk folks.'
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 11:21 AM
The reasons for this family to move to Ft. Greene are similar to those of many families and individuals who have moved to Brooklyn (and other boroughs and New Jersey) from Manhattan. Manhattan is like a big mall, with too many banks and Gaps.
Coming from a family who moved 3 times before I turned 13, I can understand why the family in this article still sends their kids to the West Village for school -- the mother says the kids seems to be adjusting quickly, but when it comes to the friends at school, it is harder.
As far as private vs. public -- it's a personal choice. In my family, three of us attended public schools and two attended private. Is there a difference among the siblings in terms of worldliness, demeanor, etc? Not really. Did my public school suffer because people in the neighborhood also sent their kids to private schools? Not really either.
This is NYC -- people have been moving among the boroughs for years -- I know many people who have lived in at least 3 boroughs. And people have been sending their kids to schools in other boroughs, pubic or private for years. None of this is anything new.
Posted by: luvtocook at February 11, 2008 11:21 AM
11:19: Private kids don't do as well as public school kids -- GETTING INTO WHAT COLLEGE? Just curious, you know, factually speaking. Cause it sounds to me like you're full of bs. Period.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 11:24 AM
The majority of ivy leaguers come from private schools. It's exactly why those colleges do actively try and find good candidates from public schools - because they have a majority of kids from private schools so they try to get more balance.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 11:24 AM
11:20, they're not sheltered for "speaking the truth", they are sheltered for being surprised at seeing black people that aren't nannies.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 11:25 AM
11:00, how did you manage to take her rather innocent, and unintentional remark about race and turn it into your very own form of blatant racism. You are either a sheer genius with words or just plainly stupid.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 11:27 AM
Ah, leave 'em alone. They seem like perfectly nice people, and I'd rather live next door to them, than some of the people who have posted on this blog who don't want black people from the projects to walk down their Fort Greene streets, thereby creating instant "sketchyness".
As a black woman, I didn't find Ms Lee's nanny remark insulting, rather the opposite, she recognized the racial and social situations of the West Village that make for an apartheid era Johannesburg-like exodus of black women each evening.
I do agree that the Times needs to expand their focus in these soft puff pieces. They are fast becoming the large fold out edition of New York Magazine. The people in their pieces are either not-so-rich-oh-wow-how-adventurous "pioneers", or gosh-golly rich people who dare to move outside of Manhattan. Please, we are so much more than that.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 11:28 AM
I vote just "STUPID" for 11:00.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 11:28 AM
"But like someone else pointed out, I think they made their money because they were "newbies" in the west village at some point and waited it out until the the real estate market added a zero to the value of their property."
That might explain where they came up with $1.8 mil for the brownstone, but doesn't explain the $80k and year in private school tuition.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 11:30 AM
11:10am, come on, if you can't see some irony in parents who love the diversity of the Fort Greene neighborhood, but are aspiring to send their kids to Saint Ann's, where, let's face it, the kids are going to be exposed to a less than diverse experience, then you are missing something. Do you actually think school age kids are more likely to hang out with their friends from school, or some neighbor kids?
Every public school is different and I have no doubt that some kids do better in private than in public. But if you have decided your children are those kids, without giving a good public school a shot, you are making a decision that's about what's best for you, not your kid. And I guarantee you, people buying Fort Greene brownstones aren't buying in a more "affordable" area to have money for private schools. That used to be the case in Park Slope, Cobble Hill, and Carroll Gardens back when an actual middle class family could afford to buy a whole brownstone there, and that's exactly why the public schools improved. But in so-called "affordable" neighborhoods like where you live now, prices are already so high that true middle class families can't afford it. Believe me, no one with a middle class income is easily paying $60,000 year tuition for 13 yrs for 2 kids to attend private, no matter how "affordable" the neighborhood is (and anything above $1 million is really NOT affordable for most people, believe it or not).
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 11:31 AM
11:00, get your facts straight. I use to live in the village, and there are more prominant blacks living in the village than you will ever know. As a matter of speaking, how would you know? You probably never lived there. You sound like one of those schizo old men who talk to themselves on the subway. Get a life. The new generation is gonna wipe people like you off this planet.
VOTE OBAMA FOR CHANGE!!!!!!!!
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 11:33 AM
as a white freelance writer married to an asian women who's in development with one kid, this article was like a kick to the gut.
I'd like nothing more than more for our half asian artsy family to settle down in a nice brownstone somewhere, but it's becoming more clear every day that it's just not happening. 1.8 million? Where the fuck am I supposed to get that sort of money? I know , they sold their apartment on bank street, but where did they get the $ for an apartment on bank street in the first place?
I'm not mad at them, but it's pretty clear I'm never going to be able to live like them. nor is anyone who doesn't have a trust fund or a big bonus backing their next purchase. brooklyn is over.....
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 11:40 AM
11:20, visit the shoumburg museum in harlem or research the african burial ground. You will find all the stats you need that will show blacks dominating the entire area of downtown manhattan and the village.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 11:41 AM
I thought this was a lovely story and this family seemed like nice folks whom I am happy to have as neighbors. Why is it our business where they got their money? So much class anxiety on this board...
Posted by: fortgreenest at February 11, 2008 11:45 AM
Gee. Like what we need are yet another self-hating white dude and a banana who can't wait to dye her skin white. The hood is going downhill, nonstop.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 11:45 AM
Mummified bodies, captured slaves, and second class citizens don't count against the dominating whiteman. No fair 11:41.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 11:47 AM
It would be interesting for the NYTimes to do an expose on how many "successful" artists, writers, filmmakers, etc. living in Manhattan and Brooklyn are actually the beneficiaries of trust funds. There's nothing like a trust fund to allow you to pursue your dream of making art without worrying about commerce. But that's been the case for 20 years or perhaps forever.
However, even 10 years ago, the non-trust fund artists could actually find nice livable homes in Brooklyn that were easily affordable. Not so any longer, which is too bad.
PS -- I also thought the family in the article seemed very nice, and would love to have them as neighbors.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 11:48 AM
They may very well have bought their West Village apartment for 200K 15 years ago.
Don't blame them for getting in while the gettin was good.
All of you that claim Bed Stuy and Crown Heights are AMAZING, think about the prices for the neighborhoods and realize that middle class people are no longer moving into those neighborhoods. It's rich and it's poor for the most part.
I think they seem like ideal neighbors. They aren't claiming to be anything. They are just living their lives.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 11:52 AM
my husband and i were talking about this piece yesterday and how it made our stomachs turn, to put it mildly. we've lived on that block for more than a few years it has always been great, even in the crack years. (yes, it's true, folks) sorry to say, but you didn't "discover" it. the "we're so casual, and laid back", but are dying to get into st. ann's thing is exactly what's wrong with fort greene these days-it's rich, bohemian wannabees playing house, claiming to have "found" brooklyn.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 11:53 AM
VOTE OBAMA FOR CHANGE??????
Let's see, he will raise taxes on the "rich" (that means those making over $200,000), increase the dividend tax rate from 15% to 40%, increase the capital gains tax from 15% to who knows what, and after he finishes doing that, he'll increase taxes on energy, water and air.
And who will be hurt the most by this? The people buying in brownstone Brooklyn.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 11:54 AM
11:52, you sound very contradictory. Bed Stuy and Crown Hts are AMAZING because unlike Ft. Greene you can still get in while the gettin is good. The people who purchased for the long run will see their equity go through the roof around 2014. All the time enjoying the quiet from the AY project and traffic that will come with it. Ft. Greene had one of the highest murder rates in the city just a short time ago. How soon we forget.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 12:01 PM
Good 11:54, maybe than the gentrification will stop and people who have weathered the storm of the crack years and deserve to claim that community will have a chance to. Instead of losing it to a very nice family who has 1.8mil. to spend on a house because they are a nusance to their neighbors below them.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 12:06 PM
11:53...you and your husband are idiots, then.
NO WHERE in this piece, did either of them say they "discovered Brooklyn" nor did they even make a reference to having "found" Brooklyn for anyone but themselves.
You and your husband sound like incredibly jealous fools.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 12:14 PM
My problem with the fact that everyone who moves to Fort Green and Clinton Hill with young kids use private schools is that this is exactly the kind of gross hyper competitive, soulless, community indifferent, people that I thought I was getting away from when I moved to Brooklyn. Now these areas are only going to have the super wealthy who can afford to send their kids to public school and hold a $2 million mortgage. Meanwhile the other 3/4 of the population will continue to send their kids to crappy public schools and become more resentful of the gentrifiers who refuse to invest in the community financially or emotionally unless it is to get a Whole Foods, which the other 3/4 of the population can't afford. Sounds like a recipe for an unhappy community to me.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 12:15 PM
"11:52, you sound very contradictory. Bed Stuy and Crown Hts are AMAZING because unlike Ft. Greene you can still get in while the gettin is good."
Sorry, I don't agree.
A million dollars or even 700K or 800K is not getting in while the gettin is good.
Buying my 2 bedroom on the Upper West Side for 250k was gettin in while the getting was good.
You are incredibly out of touch if:
A. You think 800 is affordable to the middle class.
B. You think that Crown Heights and Bed Stuy will turn out just like the other gentrified neighborhoods. The reason Park Slope and Ft. Greene are so great is because a lot of people got in cheap and made the neighborhood and schools better. This IS NOT happening in either Bed Stuy or Crown Heights. There is still a large concentration of poverty, and then there are the new people who think that the neighborhood is going to change on its own.
I see zero effort being made to improve schools in either neighborhood.
EDUCATION is key for ALL neighborhoods.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 12:18 PM
jeez. this couple and their children are great. they have great values, they aren't precious at all. they have created a loving home for their family. what do you care if they choose private school over public? people can be good and still make different choices. this is a really disappointing thread. it makes the readers look provincial, mean-spirited and trite. regarding how they've afforded it; A. none of your business and B. sounds like one of the above posters is probably spot on about them buying well and selling well in past manhattan markets. that is how my husband and I were able to buy our house. we bought an apartment in manhattan 11 years ago for 160k, with very little down and sold it for quite a bit more. also, as someone else pointed out, those of you who claim ownership rights to the neighborhood, step off. lot's came before you and will come after you and us newbies. take a look at yourself and how you're behaving. you're no better than those crazy christians who vilify all that are different. you know, those republicans...
Posted by: miss priss at February 11, 2008 12:20 PM
Wow, sending your kids to private school makes you "community indifferent" and soulless? I thought that title was reserved for people who drive cars and let their dogs poop on the streets. I ride a unicycle everywhere, and I've trained my dog not only to crap in a toilet, but to make fun of other dogs who don't when we take recreational walks together.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 12:21 PM
People did not make the schools better in Fort Green. They send their kids to private school if they live in Fort Green.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 12:21 PM
The fact that they bought well explains how they were able to afford to buy in Fort Green, but it does not explain how they are able to afford to send three kids to private school.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 12:23 PM
Ms. Lee's comment was dead on. My progressive white Brownstone neighbors used to make assumptions about me until I set them straight. They thought that I was my bi-racial childs nanny, that I rented not owned and that if I did own, I must have been there way before prices went over the million dollar mark because how else would a Black woman afford the neighborhood. I was even mistaken for a cleaning lady while tidying up the outside of my home by a prospective tenant who was coming to see my rental unit. This brownstone was not my first purchase. My husband and I are not trustafarians but we lived in some unsavory places which turned out to be good investments after building euity. Once we built equity we reinvested in other properties which also did well. I no longer have to work and he works for a non-profit and our children go to a private school. You can build wealth but it does take sacrifice. It may mean living in Bed-Stuy, Red Hook, or Williamsburgh (like we did) way before the areas became popular. This couple may have made similar sacrifices. We are not entitled to a Brownstone in Park Slope or Bed-Stuy for that matter but if you put a plan in place for it to happen it can happen.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 12:25 PM
12:23...
I work in nonprofit and make almost 200K a year.
No one said they don't work.
Please stop asking the same inane question over and over.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 12:25 PM
12:18 you are dead wrong. The people who got in cheap in Ft. Greene purchased before 1997. Most flipped their property and have gone fishing. People who are purchasing now in Ft. Greene are not middle-class,and the pricing has probably reached it's peak. Other areas of brooklyn continue to have growth potential and offers an alternative to the 1.8 to 3mil. price range. Brooklyn is busting at the seams and if you think scare tactics is gonna keep certain areas blighted you are sadly mistaken.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 12:27 PM
12:27:
YOU are sadly mistaken if you don't realize the huge numbers of middle class people who live in Ft. Greene who happen to have a lot of "paper" wealth in their home.
You clearly don't know very much about Ft. Greene. The people who are paying 2 million dollars for a brownstone are about 10% of the population.
Try to open your mind a little bit and see past your own dellusions.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 12:30 PM
We are facing a terrible crisis of livability in NYC. Most people just do not make the kind of money that is needed to buy property and raise a family here.
It's great for the bigshot lawyers and bankers but for everybody else it is unaffordable. The inevitable result of this will be an exodus of normal, middle-income people. I hope the bankers can teach their own children and fix their own cars because there will be no one left behind except the undocumented workers and the millionaires.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 12:33 PM
I would never send my kids to a poor school in order to "invest" in the neighborhood.
I will invest in my kids, thank you.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 12:33 PM
The median income of Ft. Greene is around 40K a year.
How is it, then 12:27 that everyone owns a 2 million dollar brownstone as you say? You really don't think there is a middle class in Ft. Greene or Park Slope??
You are a moron, then.
There are WAY more rentals and co-ops then there are brownstones.
You all forget that only 1/3 of NYC even OWN SOMETHING IN THE FIRST PLACE!!
Yet you are so ignorant that because you don't choose to see certain things, they don't exist.
MOST people in Brooklyn are middle class. Those that buy brownstones are a miniscule portion of the population.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 12:34 PM
"I would never send my kids to a poor school in order to "invest" in the neighborhood.
I will invest in my kids, thank you."
You disgust me.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 12:35 PM
12:33
Then perhaps it would have been a better choice for you to live in Manhattan.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 12:37 PM
Wrong again 12:30, I was born and raised in Ft. Greene. purchased my first home there. Sold it for a "lot of paper" as you put it. Purchased 2 properties in Crown Hts which accounts for double the equity I had in Ft. Greene. You are not talking to a person who is not paying attention to the trends.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 12:37 PM
This thread wins the award for most despressing ever on Brownstoner.
I'm SHOCKED at how provincial most of you are.
While watching these primaries, I'm always amazed at how many people in this country have voted for Fuckabee, but I'm now seeing firsthand that many of you here in our "ultra blue" NYC are one step away from a life in Kansas, wishing everyone not Irish or German would go back to where they came from.
Really dissapointing to know I live amongst so many bigoted, closed minded, jealous, angry and hateful people.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 12:40 PM
that comment about nannies was unbelievably offensive - so smug
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 12:42 PM
12:37...Are you paying attention to the trends of increasing crime (both hate and violent) in Crown Heights and Bed Stuy??
Are you paying attention to the trend that 1 in every 10 homes in Bed Stuy will be foreclosures by the end of 2009?
I'm wondering if you paying attention to the fact that over 50% of Crown Heights lives off less than 20K a year...
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 12:42 PM
I don't think there are too many Irish or German people in Fort Green.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 12:42 PM
of course money is part of the story. it's the real estate section! please, it would be like not including all the money aspects in The Hunt column. Makes no sense without it!
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 12:43 PM
12:34..you sound frustated. You are probably one of those people who missed the boat. You probably woke up one day and realized that the new definition of middle-class does not include you and you dropped a notch. Get out of NY before you become some kind of serial killer.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 12:44 PM
Boy, I hope this nice family doesn't read this blog! What a perverse welcome to the neighborhood.
By the way, many private schools in NYC offer significant financial aid. Whether or not this family needs such aid, I just wanted to point that out to the many commenters who question families that can "afford" to send their kids to private school.
Posted by: Park Sloper at February 11, 2008 12:48 PM
Yes I am paying attention 12:42. And every chance I get to purchase something under value I will. There are 3 types of people in this world.
1) People that make things happen.
2) People that watch things happen. And
3) People that wonder what the fuck happened.
Based on your postings here, I will assume you to be in the #2 catogory. So keep collecting and watching your stats while I increase my portfolio.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 12:50 PM
If you ever participated in the Clinton Hill Cooperative Playgroup or seen nannies in the park you would understand the comment.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 12:50 PM
12:25's,
You are both absolutely correct. Working non-profit doesn't mean that you can't make more than 100K and people make sacrifices and investments to save money so that they can afford private schools. Instead of renting in Park Slope where there are just so many ammenities, move to less expensive neighborhoods - there are "safe ones" out there (Bensonhurst, Bay Ridge, Sheepshead Bay, etc...) so that you can save for a large downpayment. Don't eat out, buy a new car, or go on weekend trips for a while. It will all be worth it in the end. My wife and I moved with two kids into my parents home in Bay Ridge for a year. The Republicans out there don't actually bite. I was glad when the year was over but we were able to put down a huge down payment on our home in Brownstone BK, which made the mortgage affordable.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 12:50 PM
I'm 12:34 and I just bought my first place in Park Slope last year. Loving it, but not interested in the false information that is constantly spread around this blog.
Park Slope and Ft. Greene are mostly middle class neighborhoods, with a sizable upper class contingency. The median incomes of both are still less than 50K, though, and I prefer to stick with actual facts and numbers over speculation and stereotypes.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 12:53 PM
A lot of families buy into FG(and other nabes w/inferior schools) assuming they will simply send their kids to private school.
The dirty little secret is that there isn't enough private school space available. Poly Prep had 2000+ applicants to middle school last year with less 80 spots available. Thats less than a 5% acceptance rate. The same can be said for St. Anns, Packard and any one of the other brooklyn private schools.
W
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 12:53 PM
12:42 you just got "bitch-slapped"
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 12:53 PM
If the average income of a Ft. Greene resident is $40K and year, and the majority of them are renters (70% of New Yorkers rent) then these people are at risk of getting booted out of the neighborhood. When landloards see trustfunded progressives paying $2mn to buy brownstones in the area, they're gonna raise the rent. Goodbye Ft-Greene-as-you-once-knew-it. It's a story told many times over in Brooklyn.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 12:55 PM
12:18, you are correct that education is key. However, you are not correct that there is no improvement in Bed Stuy and Crown Heights. As a whole, no, the schools in our communities are not up to par. But positive gains in the public education in our areas are not generally covered in the New York Times.
For years we have had successful magnet programs at the Old Boys High, in Bed Stuy, and more and more parents are getting involved in all of the schools. There are many success stories coming out of these schools, due to caring teachers and involved parents. There are very active PTA's and advanced education groups in many of the schools.
In addition, there are several fine parochial schools in both communities, which are successful alternatives to public school, but keep the kids local.
While we still have a very, very long way to go, step by step, improvements have been made. I'm not saying rush here for the schools, but it is a fallacy to think that no one here cares. You can't erase generations of neglect in a few years.
Posted by: Montrose Morris at February 11, 2008 12:56 PM
12:50 - You are wasting your time. Reading most of these posts, it seems most of the people here have no concept of saving, sacrificing, investing, planning, and living for tomorrow.
These are the same people who are having kids when they are 20, or at the bar with friends every Thursday, Friday, and Saturday night living like rock stars.
They will scoff at people who scrimped, saved, worked 2 jobs, went to school at night, or whatever else they didnt do, just to dismiss them as "Trust Funders".
Sorry people, I understand you are frustrated, but middle class people actually do make it in this town.
Posted by: newsouthsloper at February 11, 2008 12:57 PM
Actually, 12:53...
I am 12:42 and I already own property...in a NICE neighborhood already.
So no...I didn't actually get bitch slapped.
I'm not trying to stock up my "portfolio" on overpriced crap in an overpriced neighborhood.
I'm trying to enjoy my one life in my beautiful home in a neighborhood I love and feel comfortable in (imagine that...referring to a house as a HOME and not as a "portfolio").
That's more important to me than $$.
But to each his/her own.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 12:58 PM
I love how white people in NYC think they aren't living in truly DIVERSE neighborhoods unless those said neighborhoods are PREDOMINENTLY BLACK!
Anybody know that the U.S. is 12% black, not 80%??
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 1:01 PM
Yeah 12:50, but the comment is too general. African-American woman born here are not nannies. The little sewing circles in the park are filled with nannies mainly from the carribean and african nations. Most are here illegal and are comfortable with these jobs because they performed them in their native countries. The experience of the African-American woman to being a nannie is derogatory based on the history. It's really a Black thing and I wouldn't expect you or the asian woman to understand. But you should know there is a difference and certain parts of our community will read it differently. Contrary to what you think, not all blacks are alike.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 1:04 PM
Why did good public schools develop in Park Slope and Cobble Hill long before Brooklyn Heights? Answer: Because PS and CH offered affordable homes for middle class parents who wanted to use the public schools. Brooklyn Heights was already too expensive for those families to move, so it was full of rich people who used the private schools. Or, got easily obtained (at the time) variances for the good public schools in PS and CH.
Why are Fort Greene and Clinton Hill following the Brooklyn Heights model instead of the PS/Cobble Hill one? Because there was not a sustained period of time that middle class families could buy. The house prices didn't rise gradually, as they did in PS and Cobble Hill, but became unaffordable to middle class buyers in a few years. The few families who got in before the rise in prices sent their kids to public schools elsewhere. Unfortunately, the same thing is happening in Bed Stuy. It would be far better if those homes sold for $350,000 - $500,000. The neighborhood would attract a huge influx of buyers who were committed to public education because they had no choice, and would invest in the schools. These people don't have $60,000 to "invest" in their children's private education, but they do have some extra money and time to make sure the local school is decent. It's a shame that very few buyers in those neighborhoods no longer care about improving the public schools.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 1:18 PM
Newsouthsloper,
I don't think this crowd is having kids at 20. They are way too selfish. But they are at the bar every Thursday, Friday, and Saturday and eating out in trendy eateries starting with Sunday brunch clear through Wednesday. They also spend way too much for coffee and clothing. I recognize that it is quite expensive to live in NYC but when I look at immigrant communities who manage to make it, there is no excuse for the rest of us. As posted previously, maybe you won't be able to buy in a Brownstone neighborhood first time around, so you either buy somewhere else first or make sacrifices to save more money.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 1:23 PM
1:18...your comment is the smartest on this thread.
thank you.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 1:26 PM
if jealousy and spite were sources of energy, this thread could power the whole city.
Posted by: z at February 11, 2008 1:30 PM
1:18 - Interesting logic, and it makes sense on the surface. But I think you are forgeting about the thousands of people who live there already that didnt buy in at 800K+.
Dont their kids go to public schools? Why are they not investing the time and money to imporive these schools?
The only way your argument works is if you are implying that the middle class should be able to buy homes in the 300-500K range and replace (Squeeze Out) the lower class people already there since they are not doing anything to improve the public schools.
So in essence, the middle class squeezing out the lower class becomes a surragate for the upper class squeezing out the middle class in other neighborhoods, right?
Posted by: newsouthsloper at February 11, 2008 1:33 PM
1:23 - You are correct, except your contention that people can't buy in brownstone neighborhoods the first time around.
Young people who are priced out of brownstone neighborhoods -- you'll likely be priced out forever, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. I was priced out of Manhattan when I came to NYC more than 25 years ago, and living in Brooklyn was definitely settling for something less than desirable (we were the old bridge and tunnel crowd).
What you should do is start your own wonderful neighborhood somewhere else and if it's full of interesting young families who work in professions that don't pay alot of money, it will be a great place to live.
Just don't be fooled by people who try to convince you to move to neighborhoods in Brooklyn that are already overpriced like Bed Stuy and Crown Heights. I'm sorry, but anyplace where homes are going to cost you $800,000 and more is not what you are looking for.
Look for a neighborhood in Queens or some other off the beaten track place where a family-sized home can be had for $400,000. In 10 years, those will be the neighborhoods the next generation of young NYers wish they could afford. The expensive brownstone neighborhoods in Brooklyn will be to them what Manhattan was to me -- way too expensive to even consider and filled with "old" people. The cool artists will want to live in whatever that new neighborhood is.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 1:37 PM
I agree that same people who are screaming abou the middle class being pushed out are probably the first ones to stand up and ask for projects to be ripped out of their neighborhoods.
I think that this is NYC, and no one should have a free ride. If you want to live here, you got to work hard, make money and hang with the best of the best.
If you do not have that ability or desire then move to Philly.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 1:37 PM
Agree, 1:37...
A wise person told me upon first moving to NYC...Not everyone can make it in this city.
So simple, but over the years, turned out to be true.
A lot of people on this thread don't seem to be able to make it and instead of working harder to achieve their dream, they've found it easier to attack those that DID manage to make it.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 1:42 PM
If 1:18's point about schools development and relatively affordable housing are correct, I have one word for all you suckers: Williamsburg! Land of the affordable (and ugly, cookie-cutter) family friendly 2BR apt. You can actually see the elementary schools improving over the last few years, and every once in a while read about the conflicts of a gentrifying neighborhood school system.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 1:48 PM
the irony is that everyone I know in Ft Greene is trying to get into BH's PS8 using a variance
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 1:49 PM
newsouthsloper, 1:18 here: I don't understand your point. I'm saying that if it is the middle class rather than the rich people buying the homes, they will improve the public schools for everyone. Of course the lower class shouldn't be squeezed out, as you say, but you have already presented a scenario where someone is going to buy those homes. I'm just pointing out that when rich people buy them, but send their kids to private school, it doesn't help the lower class people at all.
Lots of "lower class" (your word, not mine) families attend PS 321 and 29. (18% free lunch at 321, 28% at 29) Granted, those numbers aren't huge, but look at a school in Park Slope like 39, where 64% get free lunch, but it has now become a desirable school for middle class park slope parents who were committed to improving it. Or PS 58 in Carroll Gardens which has 43% of kids receiving free lunch.
But you need a tipping point of middle class families willing to commit to the schools to make it appealing to other middle class families. And unless the housing prices make the neighborhood truly affordable to the middle class (I mean 300-500K) you won't get enough to make that tipping point.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 1:49 PM
12:42, please explain where you got your income statistics. That seems very, very low. Crown Heights median income is higher than that in all the literature I've seen on the area.
1:04, I disagree with you regarding the nannies. While most of the black nannies are Caribbean, and some African, there are also American black nannies, as well as elder care workers. American blacks have the history of taking care of Massa's chirrun behind us, so do our Caribbean and African sisters, and the last thing we need is to think we are above them because we are born here. I also wouldn't characterize most of them as illegal, either, or to say that they are quite happy in their jobs, even if that's what they did before. That is a condescending, elitist attitude that should NOT be a "black thing".
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 1:55 PM
1:37,
"You can't buy in a Brownstone neighborhood first time around." You are saying that it just can't be done. I believe that it can and I am claiming and affirming that I will do it. There's a family on our block who were from another country. It seemed as though they had ten generations of family living in their house. Eventually each sibling moved out and bought something. My grandparents came up from South Carolina in the 30's purchased a Brownstone and then housed numerous relatives who came up after them. I am not advocating overcrowding in a house but there are ALWAYS options. I am in my late 20's and I moved back in with my parents five years ago to save money. I am doing quite well saving. I don't shop as much or eat out and I am nearing the 200K mark but I do have mid-100K income. With a rental and a large down payment a Brownstone is still doable. I will be looking this Spring.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 1:56 PM
Hi I am a rich guy looking to buy a brownstone in your neighborhood. I have a couple million that I earned from previous real estate purchases and not a trust fund.
I probably made the same money as you over the past 10 years but instead of wasting it on clothes, dinners, vacations I invested my money in real estate and made a whole lot more.
I bought in developing neighborhoods - like those you criticise as "transitional" watched them genetrify and sold.
So when I move into that brownstone on your street with my stay at home wife, and my kids and rennovate the property - bitch about us and make up trust fund stories.
But in the end no matter where my kids go to school, I will be a better additional to the neighborhood than you.
Why? Because I invested in ithe neighborhood instead of throwing my money away. Because I pay property taxes that pay for your kids schools, and because we will be good examples to your kids to get some balls, and a plan together to actually invest in real estate instead of critiszing those who did because you didnt.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 2:03 PM
1:56pm -- not everyone has parents they can move in with. Do they charge you for food, or do you also get your home-cooked meals free?
Also, your brownstone should cost less than a million, and need no work, in order to make that affordable for you, or you are going to quickly use up your income. There aren't too many places in brownstone Brooklyn for that price (and again, I'd suggest a more affordable neighborhood elsewhere, like Queens, where more families of your age will eventually live, rather than an established brownstone neighborhood where the parents are in their 40's, except for 20 and 30 year old trust fund babies.)
However, you are to be congratulated for saving so well. I genuinely wish you well as you seem level-headed and smart. But please don't get suckered into thinking living in brownstone brooklyn, at least at the inflated prices of today, as anything to aspire to. Especially if you are not yet 30.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 2:05 PM
I bought in Brownstone Brooklyn at the age of 30. Most of my neighbors are in their early 30's.
Some people are in professions where they make a lot of money and some aren't.
The beauty of this is that it's America. You have the choice to be whatever you want to be.
My problem is that some of you decided to be advertising assistants making 30K a year and think you deserve to own a Brownstone in Park Slope.
Doesn't work that way.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 2:09 PM
Well said 1:56 and 2:03.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 2:11 PM
To all those people who say that Brooklyn is not affordable for the middle class. Our household makes less than $150,000 a year (non-profit) and we bought in Carroll Gardens in 2005. We bought a town house and rent out the top two floors. We could have gone with a coop but we are DIYers and wanted to build equity with the rentals. We have young kids and needed to be in a neighborhood with a good public elementary school so ended up buying in Carroll Gardens. It was nerve wracking and a tremendous amount of work for the first year and I was afraid we had gotten in over our heads. But we have settled in now, have great tenants, love our neighborhood and our school, and have a mortgage that we can afford. We did have a good size down payment 20% and extra money for some renovation, which has now wiped out our savings. I don't know whether it was the best move financially. Perhaps it would have been smarter to invest that money in the market and rent. It would have been less stressful and renting would have given us more time for other things, but we're in now and we're happy and it is possible.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 2:13 PM
2:03pm, oh please.
You really don't know what you are talking about when you claim you "pay property taxes that pay for your kids school". Ha ha ha ha. I own a $2 million dollar brownstone and pay barely $3,000 in taxes -- don't you know that Brooklyn Brownstones are some of the most undervalued taxable properties. But I also use the public schools, and work hard to keep them good for everyone. You don't pay for my kids' school, your taxes barely pay for the services you get for yourself.
Not everyone who owns a brownstone has a trust fund (we don't), but when you see a 30 yr old husband and wife buying a 2 million dollar property, it's not unreasonable to think they might have had a little help getting started in their real estate investments.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 2:13 PM
2:03.
First, you're an asshole.
Second, spending money at stores and restaurants in the commumity makes the place better. Hording money and then investing outside the neighborhood does nothing to improve the area.
Thirdly, property taxes don't pay for schools in the New York (unlike most other places). Income taxes and others account for proportionately more of the revenue in the city's budget. So your fantastic deal-making acumen does a little, but not a lot, for the schools that you don't send your kids to.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 2:15 PM
My parents had help from their parents and their parents helped them.
This is nothing new to people who had a little money.
Isn't that kinda the point of having a family...to help them?
You all make it seem like you are spawned from satan to have grown up in a middle class family, and after years of working hard my parents wanted to help me buy a place.
So what??
The only reason you'd be pissed off about that is if you're jealous. Sorry, but it's true.
I went to college and grad school on full scholarships and then my parents gave me some money for my down payment.
So f*cking what??
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 2:17 PM
2:17, you are satan spawn and your post proves it.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 2:19 PM
hmm I am in my 30's and will be buying a brownstone in the next year or so IN CASH - dont have a trust fund.
Made my money by investing in real estate in "transitional" neighborhoods.
Conversely, is it not unreasonable fo rme to think that people like you who didnt pay cash and have a mortgage are dumb at business, slackers, not worthy of living in the neighborhood etc?
Watch how you stereotype as it may be used against you.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 2:20 PM
2:19...yes, you make such a good arguument.
don't quit your day job to become a debater anytime soon.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 2:23 PM
2:13, I just don't understand how you could have bought in CG in 2005 at that income. We bought in the neighborhood in 2001, but 4 years later the prices were way out of reach. It seemed like the average 4 story was 1.5 million, which would mean you needed $300,000 for a downpayment plus renovation money. How did you save $350,000 or more on a $150,000 salary?
On the other hand, I think you made a great decision, rents are going up, and the neighborhood is a wonderful place with kids.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 2:23 PM
Not everyone wants to live in a transitional neighborhood.
Period.
I don't plan to spend my short life living like that. In the end, the money is never worth it.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 2:24 PM
2:17, it's ok. It's called white privilege.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 2:24 PM
I bought in Park Slope in 2006 and I make less than 100K.
Can be done.
One of the reasons I was able:
I think $14 for cheese is a tad too much.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 2:26 PM
I'm 2:17 and I'm asian.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 2:26 PM
2:09 is the best post. So many people forget this when looking at everyone else through their "Green Colored Glasses".
Posted by: newsouthsloper at February 11, 2008 2:29 PM
BEST COMMENTS SO FAR:
12:25
12:40
1:37
THANK YOU FOR YOUR WISDOM AND FOR SHARING YOUR *ACTUAL* EXPERIENCES WITH US, AND NOT JUST YOUR VAPID OPINIONS.
and to the rich guy at 2:03, I get your point but it was a little rough going through all those typos. For a success-oriented person, you sure are illiterate. Only in america, kids, only in America.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 2:30 PM
2:17 -- the point is that the discussion was about whether brownstone Brooklyn was affordable to people making middle class incomes. I'm glad you got help from your family, but if that is the case you have nothing to add to the conversation. I agree 100% with your point that someone making a middle class income whose family gives them lots of money can afford any home they want. I'm pretty sure no one will argue with you on that. So what?
Perhaps you, too should keep your well-paying day job and forget debating.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 2:31 PM
Agree with 1:49.
1:18, your "Brooklyn Heights vs. Park Slope/Cobble Hill" schools theory might have held water 5 years ago, but today, even putting aside the subjective argument of whether PS 8 is on par with "trophy" schools like PS 321 or PS 29, there is an undeniable demand in the neighborhood for spots. In today's Brooklyn, "expensive neighborhood" doesn't necessarily translate to "neglected public school."
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 2:31 PM
2:23,
Actually, we payed less than that, but we don't live in a grand 4-story brownstone. We had some money from selling an apartment, both my wife and I are pretty good savers, we had to borrow some money from our 401k's. We didn't always work in non-profit.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 2:32 PM
2:24 - then you are destined to be a renter your whole life.
Also - the money not being worth it? I have made $4 million over the past 7 years living in transitional neighborhoods.
Also I find transitional neighborhoods much more enjoyable to live in than established ones like Chelsea, Upper West Side, Brooklyn Hieghts.
It seems you need perspective and to get your head out of your ass.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 2:32 PM
2:30 did proper grammar and being a spelling nazi make you a multi-millionaire?
Didnt think so.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 2:35 PM
1:37 is right. Queens is where it's at for the future. So much uncelebrated territory, ripe to be turned. You will all pooh-pooh Queens, but that's the same reaction that early pioneers in Brooklyn got. (When I first moved to Brooklyn in 2001 people in Manhattan thought I had lost my mind.)
Brownstone Brooklyn, on the other hand, is over. It's now attracting Manhattan people who can throw $2mn at former crack houses. It's no longer a place to build the future. And I agree, areas like Bed-Stuy and CH are not the answer.
It's Queens.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 2:38 PM
"2:24 - then you are destined to be a renter your whole life."
There ARE alternatives, you realize.
I already own, but I'd much rather own a 2 bedroom in Park Slope than a whole house in a crappy neighborhood.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 2:38 PM
As someone who lives and owns a townhouse in Manhattan, I find this banter between you self-entitled "brownstoners" to be comical.
I also find many of the things said about the family in the article to be appaling. All they did was move to a new neighborhood to lead a better, more comfortable life. To judge them shows the underlying jealousness and reverse elitism that Brooklyn residents have towards Manhattanites.
Shame on you.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 2:42 PM
Shut it with the Queens crap.
This is a blog called BROWNSTONER. Most people here like living in beautiful old Victorian homes.
If I wanted a piece of crap clad in aluminum siding, I'd move to the suburbs.
NOT Queens.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 2:43 PM
Buy with your family, if you can (I bought with siblings). You can split buildings with another buyer too, doesn't have to be a friend, just a business partner (probably better that way). Most of these brownstones are too huge for one family anyway-- they were built with servants in mind for godsake.
And like a lot of people been saying, be a pioneer. Be enterprising. Don't just read the times looking for answers. These people took their own path to get here, whatver that path was. Find yours. You'll enjoy it more that way too.
AND YES, TRY TO SEND YOUR KIDS TO PUBLIC SCHOOL. Or at least start after school programs for kids from the community to be a part of.
My biggest problem with Fort Greene is that there's such a denial of the "other side" of the park, the projects. Everyone's just praying for them to disappear, for ratner to buy them and ship all those "sketchy" people out. Where are the after school events in the park that would enhance the quality of life for the kids there? Where's the Fort Greene Park Conservancy and the non profit groups everyone's working for when you can organize really tremendous events and activities for kids?
Maybe I should start something. I'm 26 but hell it's never too early to start thinking about my own kids' future in the 'hood, and so far, it looks kinda . . . . lame.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 2:46 PM
I'm suprised that nobody is nostalgic for the days when you could actually buy a brownstone on S. Portland for 1.8. Seems like the price has gone up by a million in two years.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 2:48 PM
2:42 love that word "jealousness" -- it's so much more sophisticated than the comically provincial (and correct) "Jealosy". Or is that "jealosity"? We don't get learned so well over here in the boonies.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 2:48 PM
2:42 there were far more remarks defending the family, and a few negative ones. And, most of the negative ones were barely negative, just comments on being able to afford a 1.8 million dollar house, and private school for 3 kids as well.
You, however, are just as judgemental about brownstoners. Shame on you. In fact, why are you even bothering with us poor jealous reverse elitists at all?
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 2:51 PM
did you mean jealousy, 2:48?
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 2:51 PM
2:24 - that 2 bedroom in an established neighborhood MAY make you a few hundred thousand, a whole house in a "crappy" neighborhood MAY make you a few million.
With your investment strategy you will be stuck in an apartment your whole life.
Also the biggest thing wrong with living in "established" neighborhoods is that most of the people living their are like you - idiots with their heads up their asses not inspiring, and no fun to be around.
Good luck and please stay out of our fun "crappy" neighborhoods.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 2:51 PM
2:35 -- not being illiterate gave me a leg up though. How'd you make it? Oh wait, I know -- the same reason the economy's crashing now, the great real estate scam. Glad to know we're all paying for your success.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 2:52 PM
They're REALLY going to make a score 10 years from now when they sell that place and move to Queens.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 2:53 PM
"This is a blog called BROWNSTONER. Most people here like living in beautiful old Victorian homes."
Then why all the postings on condos and other matters.
This website, intended or not, is also about the change (and loss) of Brooklyn. And the future of Brownstone Brooklyn isn't so pretty: terrible bankers and lawyers (and assorted others) from Manhattan are the future buying demographic of all your precious 'beautiful old Victorian homes.'
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 2:53 PM
2:48 good point.
So a shell of a building today on S. P would go for 2.8? Like, total gut renovation required?
Crazy crazy crazy.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 2:54 PM
2:51...
a couple with a child does not need 4000 square feet.
it is wasteful, shameful and down right disgusting in my book.
sorry my measly 1000 sf bothers you so much.
i enjoy having a small footprint on the earth.
i prefer to invest money in actual investments that produce more than 4% a year.
real estate is over. get on with your life, please.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 2:55 PM
Well it certainly isn't about QUEENS, 2:53.
Learn to read.
That was my point.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 2:56 PM
2:05,
My parents are gracious enough to feed me and I do not pay for utilities either only because they saw that I really made drastic lifestyle changes and was serious about saving. I am truly fortunate to have such parents. I have friends who don't have parents in NYC who are sacrificing in other ways. Three are sharing an apartment in Staten Island as opposed to renting in a trendy neighborhood and two got second jobs bartending. I have done the math and I am certain that I will be able to afford my favorite Brownstone neighborhood (not Park Slope) more so in today's market than when I first committed to savings. I have budgeted money for only necessary reno's. Granite countertops and stainless steel appliances can wait. My family said that they will throw one hell of a house warming for the little things. I am certainly no trust fund baby but my situation is better than most. My point is that with determination it can be done. Whining does not equal determination.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 2:56 PM
2:53: Hate to break it to ya but those terrible bankers and lawyers (and doctors)are the reason these "beautiful old Victorian homes" ever came into existence. They built them. They're just coming home . . . . scary as that image is to all of us.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 2:57 PM
2:57 SPOT ON!!!!
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 3:00 PM
2:24 I am glad that you told us that you find "crappy" neighborhoods disgusting, as well as, people who have large houses.
I am all about being green and having a light footprint on the world but you are an ass filled with hate and distain for people unlike you.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 3:01 PM
2:56 Good for you kid! I think your youth and energy and hopefully progressive-mindedness can be a great contribution not just to yourself but to others who live in your neighborhood. Self-starters like you (and ironically, the fact that you're accepting help from your parents makes you more independent, in my mind, than all the friends I know selling their souls to corporations they loathe) can invest so much in terms of energy and ideas to neighborhoods which should have strong unified communites. Don't send your kids to private school!
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 3:03 PM
"Also the biggest thing wrong with living in "established" neighborhoods is that most of the people living their are like you - idiots with their heads up their asses not inspiring, and no fun to be around.
Good luck and please stay out of our fun "crappy" neighborhoods."
Yeah, you're right. You aren't hateful at all.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 3:03 PM
2:31pm -- I agree PS 8 is now desirable. But I also remember the planning that went into that. Brooklyn Heights families had meetings at homes to convince a good number of families with kids to all come at the same time -- thus, a tipping point. In 2003 a number of parents started there, and a much larger group started in K in 2004. Each year thereafter more parents chose it.
But what's interesting is that the "pioneering" families, so to speak, were not the brand newcomers, but families who had been living there for years and whose kids were only now approaching school age. PS 29 had shut its' doors to those families, so they could either move to a better school zone or commit to the school (private school was not an option most wanted, for a variety of reasons).
Perhaps when Fort Greene parents are shut out of privates and PS 8, they will have no choice but to commit to the public schools. But I doubt it will be the families who paid 2 million for their homes. The question is whether there are enough less wealthy families willing to improve the schools. The families that did so at PS 8 were not the ones living in 2 million dollar properties at the time (although they have since appreciated in value, of course),
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 3:04 PM
I think we should all be impressed that in 2008, people are moving from what most would consider one of the best neighborhoods in the WORLD (west village) and leaving that for Brooklyn.
Sounds like a positive sign, if you ask me.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 3:06 PM
Kinda sad to think that these people's kids are probably reading all this smut about their parents and them.
Kids, if you're reading this, just know that all these people are the same people kissing your ass and smiling all sweet when you see them on the street, and they'd do ANYTHING for their kids to be invited to one of your parties.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 3:07 PM
Why cant we all just get along? All the venom! All the hate! Much energy wated. Enjoy your amazing neighborhood and architecture and ignore the haters.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 3:11 PM
The whole public vs private school debate is fascinating. Here's my idealistic take.
My kids (when and if they arrive to the world ;)) are going to public school, even though I went to private my whole life (immigrant parents, scholarships, you know the drill -- and it was a drill, believe me).
I'm sending them to public school because nothing in private school could have prepared me for college, life, decision making; I was sheltered, pampered, and thought I had every choice in the world, and this happened to be overwhelming, debilitating and stifling to me. I hated it, hated myself, and it took me a while to shake that guilt shit and put my mind to the task of making myself happy, and others around me happy. I think public school will at least give my kids a very clear idea of what life is like outside of the shelter of our home, and hopefully will make them sensitive to the struggle of people around them; lack of facilities and resources, pressures on students from their home life, as well as on teachers. It will also force them to face their own issues about where they come from -- me, my background -- and force them to make decisions about how they feel.
This is not some overarching ethic I want to impose on my kids like a scientist. I want to give them this gift, from what I have learned of life, the way my parents gave me the only gift they knew -- a "perfect" eduction -- from what they knew of life.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 3:18 PM
3:07pm I challenge you to cite the posts that you believe have "smut" about this family. Most are barely negative. "Kids, someone accused your family of having a trust fund!" Oh yes, what an awful thing to say about them.
I will match every negative post you cite with one saying how nice the family sounds.
Please back up your contention with evidence.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 3:22 PM
Lotta bozos here today. Cheers!
ps - I'm a self made gazillionaire who bought everything ever in CASH and my trophy wife and kids love the trees here in Brooklyn.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 3:24 PM
I hope you have kids soon 3:18, because we need more people like you in this town. I am genuinely touched by your post, which is pretty rare on brownstoner.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 3:29 PM
I hope their kids are reading this otherwise that private school education ain't worth a dime.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 3:32 PM
I went to private school for a little and I went to public school for a little. You cant generalize about either and if you do your wrong. No different than generalizing about anything else in the world. Works for some, does not for others... just like Brooklyn.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 3:33 PM
You should love the trees because apparently you own them bozo.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 3:33 PM
I agree with you 3:18.
Wholeheartedly.
Thanks for that. I hope some of the parents out there are listening too. I think you bring some very insightful information to this discussion.
I've found the exact same in my life as well. My parents, who both went to private school sent us to public, because they said they'd never put us through what they went through in finding out about life as you mention.
Good for you.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 3:35 PM
"You cant generalize about either and if you do your wrong."
No, actually YOU'RE wrong.
Guess your grammar lessons were the private school years???
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 3:36 PM
I too went to private school. As the only Black or one of a handful for most of my elementary school years I knew full well the lack of facilities and resources and the pressures on students from their home life, as well as on teachers. I saw the homework that my friends in public school got and my homework. I knew that my public school ffriends couldn't swim but I could because I took it in school. I played an instrument they did not, etc... I was far from sheltered or pampered and knew that I had many choices, one of which was to do well while on scholarship at my prep school so that I could get into a top college - on scholarship and make a better life for myself. Your issues sound to me like they stemmed more from your parents not teaching you a sense of self, than from your merely attending private school. My father would tell me everyday "just because you go to school with white kids, don't you start acting white." He really didn't mean any harm by the comment, but in his own way he was telling me to remember who I was and I did. That said, I do wholeheartedly support the improvement of the Public School system through a number of means one of which is Charter schools.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 3:40 PM
Hate to break it to you, but there is a lot more music and art in public school than there is in private.
Ask any kid in private school in Kansas what a clarinet is, and they look at you like you're an alien.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 3:43 PM
3:36 - good point. I guess I should have listened a little more. Grammer was actually the public school years. So I guess at least I'm right about the generalizing thing.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 3:44 PM
Are we in Kansas?? No we're not, 3:43. Who cares what private schools in Kansas are like.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 3:45 PM
I hate it when a poster has nothing to contribute to the thread so all they do is critic others grammar.
Losers.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 3:47 PM
"Who cares what private schools in Kansas are like."
Yea, you're right. We should only care about kids in Brooklyn.
No one else matters.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 3:48 PM
I hate it when someone has nothing to contribute to the thread, so they criticize the critics of grammar.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 3:49 PM
Perhaps the reason your public school did not offer lessons in music etc. is because it did not get enough support from the community. If anyone has ever taken a step inside PS 41 elementary school in the West Village for example, it could easily be mistaken for a private school.
Furthermore, the people we are taking about here can afford to send their kids to private music and swimming lessons etc. with the money they are saving from public school.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 3:51 PM
3:49 is a complete idiot who probably got beat up every day in public or private school.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 3:52 PM
3:52 = rush limbaugh
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 3:53 PM
3:53 = total ass who adds nothing to the conversation.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 3:55 PM
3:51:
you have it backwards....most public schools offer music.
most private schools do not.
notice i didn't say, most private in brooklyn, but MOST private, period.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 3:55 PM
3:55 = adds an incredible amount to the conversation
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 3:56 PM
Public schools suck Here for 1 big and 1 Small reason - Unions being the big reason one and Parents not being involved the small.
Unions keep ineffective and low-quality teachers employed at the expense of our children and their self-interested lobby. Money is wasted and virtually disappears into the system without a trace.
Look at the numbers, Public schools spend more per child than most private and parochial schools yet the end product is crap. Why? Because the government cannot effectively and efficiently run a school and unions ensure no teachers are hired, fired, promoted, or rewarded for merit as opposed to tenure.
Super involved parents have been able to impact some schools like PS 321, but this is rare, and merely sending your kids into a highly dysfunctional system and "getting involved" is not enough to stem the tide.
Private schools educate kids more efficiently and dont have massive lumbering bureaucracies, special interests, and unions to support. Good teachers are rewarded for being good, and bad ones are eliminated.
It is sad that so many of you think the public schools here have a chance. They do not, unitl the massively corrupt and broken system of Public Eduction is addressed (For instance when pigs fly) with real reform and not the same old feed the bureaucracy more tax dollars with no results or accountability.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 3:57 PM
3:57
You are dead wrong.
I see public schools in New York City improving almost daily. Schools like ps. 29 that were 5 years ago not on anyone's radar are now sought after schools.
Many schools in Williamsburg have improved, as have schools all over the city.
Your negative energy is a waste of space.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 3:59 PM
3:59 - I can count on 2 hands the "Good" Public Schools in Brooklyn. Compared to the hundreds that are here, that is sad.
Why do you think Public Schools in Long Island are so much better? Is it because of more funding? No, its because they are much smaller districs that are easily managed and the unions are isolated and marginalized.
The Teachers Unions in NYC are a political entity first and foremost.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 4:03 PM
3:59 - Your 1 example and "Positive Energy" are so much more welcomed and deserving of this space than anyone else.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 4:05 PM
3:22 I take up your challenge though I have little time (making our brownstone millions is so time consuming), but here are a few of my favorite examples of smut:
Gee. Like what we need are yet another self-hating white dude and a banana who can't wait to dye her skin white. The hood is going downhill, nonstop.
the surest sign that they are clueless is the fact that they consented to be in the article in the first place. There are many many people in this city with their same attitudes, but a few notches up on the smarts scale, who would be aghast about anything that publicly put the lie to their "we're just ordinary folk" schtick.
An annoying story of lefty trustafarians and their mores. My, how pioneering of them, moving to Ft Greene (to a former crack-den no less, for which they dutifully paid $1.8 million). Still on that St. Ann's waiting list for the brood, though. Have to continue to slog back into Manhattan for private school...
Attention money lefties: want to live among real black people but don't want to be mugged. In Ft. Greene they have actual black people who aren't nannies, but are sanitized so that they won't mug you. You can feel authentic and cool...and safe, all at the same time. Of course, you can try Bed Stuy or Crown Heights, plenty of what you are looking for their except for the not-getting-mugged part.
Meet your new neighbors: The Smuggersons!
Don't these people get joint pain from patting themselves on the back so vigorously?
They inhereted a pile of money, 10:34. And the daddy grew up in New Canaan, CT (the WASPiest place on earth) so he's still trying to cover his tracks with this salt-of-the-earth schtick.
Can you sense the drug-rush of the crackies who used your pad to get high before you moved in?
The people featured in the NYT articles weren't so busy making money that they couldn't take time out to blow-hard to newspaper reporter about their fabulous lives.
I agree that these people are idiots for sharing their story with the NYT. Why bother? It just invites hateful comments from most people who read it, and I find it an invasion of privacy. You KNOW the journalist was salivating as soon as Ms. Lee uttered the "black people who aren't nannies" comment.
"Black people who aren't nannies"? These people are incredibly sheltered!
Brooklyn used to be a place to get away from the money-is-everything and money-defines-who-you-are strain of life in Manhattan.
Trouble is, it's become that. It's bourgeois, money and status-centered. Bankers and lawyers buying $2mn brownstones. All under the veneer of being laid-back and 'jusk folks.'
the "we're so casual, and laid back", but are dying to get into st. ann's thing is exactly what's wrong with fort greene these days-it's rich, bohemian wannabees playing house, claiming to have "found" brooklyn.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 4:05 PM
There is no trying to reason with someone with your attitude, 4:03.
None.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 4:06 PM
3:57 - public schools are having problems nationally because of whiney Republicans who do not want to pay any taxes.
They say things like "mandates" and "entitlements" in the argument to lower the taxes that they have to pay. However, they are the first ones to ask the govt to insure their money in the bank, or to rebuild their million $ beach front home.
They also make stupid arguments that private entities do everything better than public organizations.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 4:06 PM
Republicans don't want to fund the schools because they think all the white children go to private schools and all the brown and black children go to public.
And we all know how they feel about brown and black children.
And no, I'm not being sarcastic.
I think it's time to start calling these Republicans out for what they really are:
RACIST!
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 4:09 PM
"Yea, you're right. We should only care about kids in Brooklyn.
No one else matters."
IT'S A BLOG ABOUT BROOKLYN.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 4:10 PM
4:05 Thank you for showing us so clearly what so many brownstoner readers really think about a nice family moving to Brooklyn.
Those posts are truly disgusting.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 4:12 PM
Republicans also blame the "lefties" for all the problems of the world - except that the "righties" had complete and uncontested control over the entire country for the past 8 years during which they have proven that all there policies dont work and completely screw the country up.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 4:13 PM
"Why do you think Public Schools in Long Island are so much better?"
According to whom?
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 4:13 PM
There is a lot more evidence than PS 321 that involved parents can go a long way towards bettering a public school. Park Slope, Brooklyn Heights, Cobble Hill, Carrol Gardens, and Boerum Hill all have elementary schools that are considerably better than they were 5-10 years ago and they are still getting better.
I am not against charter schools. Over crowding may require them. But would a Charter School in Fort Green accurately represent the demographic of Fort Green? I'm not optimistic.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 4:14 PM
The world would be SO much better off if there were no more Republicans.
If we have another as president, Buenos Aires here I come!!!!
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 4:15 PM
3:40, I think your dad was pretty awesome and brave for sending his son to an all-white private school. He wanted you to have a special education, a different experience from what he had and from what your peers had. My parents did the same thing by sending me to private school. But if I'm to con
An annoying story of lefty trustafarians and their mores. My, how pioneering of them, moving to Ft Greene (to a former crack-den no less, for which they dutifully paid $1.8 million). Still on that St. Ann's waiting list for the brood, though. Have to continue to slog back into Manhattan for private school...
Brooklyn is no longer the alternative to the West Village. It is the West Village. Sad, that.
Posted by: guest at February 11, 2008 9:53 AM