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February 4, 2008
A Building Boom in Southern Crown Heights
There's a condo construction frenzy going on right now in the southern, predominantly Hasidic section of Crown Heights, according to The New York Times. A spokeswoman for the Dept. of Buildings said the agency issued more than five times as many permits for new buildings in Community District 9 as it had five years ago. The biggest new building in the neighborhood is 580 Crown Street, above, which has 94 units; a developer plans to put up a building almost twice that size next door. The Lubavitch neighborhood has long had one of the highest birth rates in the city, and area residents say that more babies=more buildings (interestingly, however, an article from the Jerusalem Post quotes a person who says that the younger generation is having fewer kids than their parents: “The older generation had more children…Nowadays, unfortunately, the average is around six children.") The new condos in the area cater to the Orthodox community, and many feature at least three bedrooms, two sinks, two stoves and two kitchen counters, as well as Sabbath elevators.
Here Come the Babies. There Go the Jackhammers. [NY Times]
Baby Biz Booming in Crown Heights [Jerusalem Post]
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Comments
6 kid average is not enough? Is this some kind of twisted race to see who can populate the earth with more of their kind?
Posted by: guest at February 4, 2008 9:35 AM
i am jewish and i find these people insane
5 or 6 kids ?
they are a cult
Posted by: guest at February 4, 2008 9:35 AM
I have seen some of these buildings in my recent wanderings. Its unfortunate that "kosher buildings" are made so unattractive.
Posted by: crouchback 2 at February 4, 2008 9:37 AM
hasidism eschews aestheticism purposely.
Posted by: guest at February 4, 2008 9:52 AM
I wouldn't necessarily stereotype the Hasidim. Jake Goldstein, who is featured in the NYT article, might be in favor of increased development in Crown Heights South, but, as chairman of CB-9 he has been supportive of extending the Historic District in my neighborhood, PLG, also in Board 9. He is capable of a nuanced approach--we might try to do the same.
Posted by: Bob Marvin at February 4, 2008 10:18 AM
That's too much to ask Bob Marvin, unfortunately.
Posted by: guest at February 4, 2008 10:21 AM
These buildings are ugly. The same is happening in south W'burg/North Bed Stuy.
Posted by: guest at February 4, 2008 10:23 AM
There are lots of religious "cults" like this. They are NO different than Mormons, many Muslim groups, or traditional Catholics (I am one of 8 children!!), etc.
Posted by: guest at February 4, 2008 10:24 AM
Hmm, I didn't see stereotypes in the NY Times piece, Bob Marvin. I just saw a reporting of statistics and some quotes.
Posted by: guest at February 4, 2008 10:25 AM
Its not stereotyping you ninnys, its an actuality of the group. You might try to be more "nuanced" in your understanding of different cultures and realize that aesthetics and such frivolities are offensive to some. You need to get out more.
Posted by: guest at February 4, 2008 10:27 AM
All fundamentalist religions are cults. Every one.
Posted by: guest at February 4, 2008 10:30 AM
Bob Marvin was responding to the first few comments--how about some reading comprehension??!!! Everything is a freaking issue for some of you. Go to the gym or go for a run to get out your aggression.
Posted by: guest at February 4, 2008 10:32 AM
10:24--or Slopers!
Posted by: guest at February 4, 2008 10:34 AM
knee-jerk "you're stereotyping" is dumb. Why don't you go to the gym and thereby help us keep simplistic nonsense off the board.
Posted by: guest at February 4, 2008 10:43 AM
Bob Marvin doesn't need any angry rude protectors. He's a grown adult and if he or anyone posts anything here, anybody gets to respond to it. You don't get to tell people they aren't allowed to have an opinion. Sorry!
Posted by: guest at February 4, 2008 10:54 AM
LOL 10:54, of course I can defend myself, but I can understand 10:32's frustration when people comment without reading whatever they're commednting about.
Posted by: Bob Marvin at February 4, 2008 11:17 AM
But that wasn't the case, Bob. It did really appear you were saying the NY Times article had the stereotpying. You didn't say "in the posts above" or name time stamps of anonymous posts you were talking about. IMO, it was clear your post had merely been misunderstood for those reasons.
Posted by: guest at February 4, 2008 11:27 AM
Bob - perhaps they switch off when the see the overused-to-the-point-of-meaningless terms "stereotying" and "racist"
Posted by: guest at February 4, 2008 11:30 AM
11:27,
I would NEVER suggest that THE NEWSPAPER OF RECORD indulges in stereotyping :-)
But otherwise, your point is taken-- I think my point was clear, but misunderstanding is always possible and I can always improve my writing.
Posted by: Bob Marvin at February 4, 2008 11:33 AM
As a matter of fact they do feel an obligation to repopulate, in response to the Nazis' nearly complete destruction of European Jewry.
Posted by: Flatbushwhacker at February 4, 2008 12:30 PM
BTW, I was at the Atlantic Center yesterday doing a little shopping and I was violently HISSED at by a female Orthodox woman. It must be something they teach, because their kids immediately (all 50 of them) stared me down like I was spawned from satan.
I'm gay and was with my bf...
There were a few other orthodox in Target and they ALL gave us dirty looks.
Not into it.
The hissing was pretty disturbing, although we had a good laugh about it.
Next time, I'm saying something...
Posted by: guest at February 4, 2008 1:44 PM
Precisely, Flatbushwhacker. On a tour of Hasidic Williamsburg, I was ignorant enough to ask how many of their group remained "back home." Evenly, the tour guide replied, "none." As child-of-survivors Helen Epstein has written, their family tree was chopped off at the roots. Imagine how New York's Irish-Americans would celebrate St. Patrick's day if the English had successfully exterminated every Irish man, woman and child on the other side of the Atlantic. Perhaps that is what it takes to make us realize that children are our future, and our greatest treasure. Yes, the Hasidim are xenophobic and cultish, but they've figured out their values the hard way, and I do not judge them. As we aesthetes stumble into demographic winter in our belated march to the fertility clinic to beget one perfect baby to occupy its tastefully decorated nursery, I salute every one of our city's ethnic groups willing to sacrifice to bring forth the greatest capital of all--humanity. The Fedders condos are a bummer, but you can't have everything. L'chaim!
Posted by: Brenda from Flatbush at February 4, 2008 1:49 PM
"As we aesthetes stumble into demographic winter in our belated march to the fertility clinic to beget one perfect baby to occupy its tastefully decorated nursery, I salute every one of our city's ethnic groups willing to sacrifice to bring forth the greatest capital of all--humanity."
Geez...who invited Dr. Phil?
Posted by: guest at February 4, 2008 2:02 PM
Arafat said that he would "defeat the Jews through the wombs of our women", so now many of the Hasidim have chosen to rise to the challenge and try to out-birth the Arabs.
It's a very fucked up situation. Especially when one considers the fact that most of the people
a)can't afford to bring up the children they have and
b) the only purpose for having them is to overpopulate another bunch of nuts.
Posted by: guest at February 4, 2008 2:05 PM
1:44:
As sometimes happens with victims of long-term abuse (and anti-Semitism is a form of abuse), they become similar to their victimizers. Be vigilent. Next time, say something. (Maybe one of the kids will listen.)
Posted by: guest at February 4, 2008 2:15 PM
Brenda - not all the hasidim were murdered, thats plain wrong. But after the war the rebbes did move their remainder of their communities wholesale to America to continue.
BTW Brenda - by "saluting" ethnic groups I suppose you're giving the finger to the anglos? Such divisiveness is unbecoming.
Posted by: guest at February 4, 2008 2:24 PM
"As sometimes happens with victims of long-term abuse (and anti-Semitism is a form of abuse), they become similar to their victimizers."
Sorry but I don't believe that's any excuse.
These women were in their 20's or 30's I'd say. The only reason they have been the victim of anti-semitism in their lifetime is by acting out in this way.
And even if that wasn't true...HISSING at someone like they are a snake??? We were just walking minding our own business.
It was the lowest form of humanity, in my opinion and making excuses for it only makes it worse. She disgusted me.
I guarantee you I've been the victim of more anti this or anti that than this woman and I would never act out in that manner.
You better believe I'm going to say something next time, but unfortunately it's not going to be pretty.
I've got some good ones lined up. She's gonna wish she had no tongue after I'm done saying my peace.
Posted by: guest at February 4, 2008 2:31 PM
2:31:
Making an observation isn't making an excuse.
Read my post again.
And here's a suggestion: When you respond to bigots with this particular background, start by saying both gays and Jews were victims of the Holocaust, stripped of their rights and humanity, and shoved into ovens.
And avoid any anti-Semitic remarks, which, by the way, aren't incurred only because some Jewish people are homophobic (I know too many Protestants to know that isn't so).
--2.15
Posted by: guest at February 4, 2008 2:51 PM
I would never say anything anti-semitic, because I'm not anti-semitic. But I will have some harsh words for someone who, in a crowded shopping mall, interrupts my beautiful day with a new boyfriend by louding (and shaking her head violently towards us, might I add) hissing, while her crotchfruit stood there and scolded us with their eyes.
It was so absurd, it seemed unreal.
Posted by: guest at February 4, 2008 2:57 PM
2:57:
It's all too real. (And crotchfruit: is that slang for children, who are people, too?)
Best wishes to you and the bf.
2:51
Posted by: guest at February 4, 2008 3:03 PM
I was kidding about the crotchfruit. Heard that term a while back and had to throw it into conversation somehow.
I love kids.
Assuming things go well with the new bf, anyone have one they want to get rid of??
Thanks for the well-wishes, 3:03.
Posted by: guest at February 4, 2008 3:08 PM
3:08:
Enjoyed our brief conversation, even if surrounding an unpleasant topic.
--2:15 - 3:03
Posted by: guest at February 4, 2008 3:18 PM
I enjoyed it as well. Thanks. It's nice to know people can still have a difference of opinion, hear each other out, reconcile those differences and come together in the end.
I like your style.
3:08/2:57/2:31
Posted by: guest at February 4, 2008 3:23 PM
By saluting ethnic groups with higher fertility rates than our own non-replacement rate, I do not give the finger to fellow Anglos--I don't give it to anyone anymore, I'm too afraid of getting shot--but I do break ranks with the prevailing Western presumption that we'd all be doing the earth a favor to just dwindle and disappear. Looking down on more fertile ethnic groups has long been a way for the educated classes to feel superior to others and to their own less elevated past; the nonsense about a "population bomb" put a gloss of scientific respectability on it. Japan, Italy, and other "demographic winter" countries are facing the ugly consequences of repopulating their labor pools with immigrants uneasily grafted onto monocultural societies. We are blessed with a long history of robust and diverse immigration, and every time a group becomes too refined to have enough kids to replace us, another group comes to take its place. Time to stop sneering and start thanking them!
Posted by: Brenda from Flatbush at February 4, 2008 3:43 PM
What inventory shortage?
Posted by: guest at February 4, 2008 4:11 PM
Brownstoner:
What a sad state of affairs if this is the standard for new apartment construction in Crown Heights, my boyhood neighborhood. (And the photo in the Times makes things look even worse!) "South" Crown Heights is the location of Union, Carroll, and President Streets, some of the handsomest blocks in the city, and to think of them hemmed in by buildings like the one pictured above is dispiriting.
Although Crown Heights is known for its great row houses, it also has an excellent selection of apartment buildings, any of which could provide lessons for the builders of these new numbers. The Imperial on Pacific Street. The Betsy Ross on St. Marks Avenue. The Adelphi on Eastern Parkway. And any number of buildings known only by their addresses -- all good urban buildings that helped elevate the quality of the street and neighborhood even as they provided "mass housing" for people.
We kids enjoyed them immensely. Each one had a particular style (Romanesque, Neo-Georgian, English Tudor, Art Deco, etc.) and spirit (stylish, stuffy, and, if containing winding halls and dark stairs, a little creepy) that made play dates unique one place to the next.
Elevators were key to the experience. Wood panelled with brass buttons, sighing and shaking at each stop, the interior door rolling back to the heavy steel exterior door that had to be pushed open. Parents knew to step back and let their kids take the controls. (But there were also standards or behavior: We were to be quiet and respectful if any other adults were present. And we also learned behavior as we watched men take off their hats if a woman was in or entered the cab.)
Service elevators were, of course, our favorites. Lots of Crown Heights apartment houses had these, usually right next to the "passenger" elevator. (Small, polished plaques indicated their difference.) Here there were accordian gates that had to be slid back and forth manually, revealing the elevator shaft as we went up and down, making us feel as though we were in full- size Erector Sets (the toys -- do they still make them?).
(When I was very little, I got my foot caught in one of the gates, tripping the elevator between floors. After waiting what seemed eternity, I let out a terrific wail. But these old buildings were well built, so no one heard me! It wasn't for an hour that my parents, frantic, found me, and with the superintendent pulled me up to the floor landing, my father hustling me across the lobby as I kicked and screamed, so exasperated that he threw me through the air at my mother who, happily, turned out to be a good catch.)
Staffs figured in each building's personality. The doorman at the Betsy Ross would take the longest time peering at me up and down from behind the door before, slowly and imperiously, opening it for me. Elegant in a black uniform that seemed designed to match the black and white terrazzo floors, he'd make me wait until he'd ring up my friend's apartment, even though he'd seen my a thousand times. "Resident?" He'd ask, then of me, "Name?" And not until he'd spoken to the "resident" would he nod me to the elevators.
I much preferred the doormen at the Adelphi, who simply waved me to my friends' apartment, or the elevator operators at another friends' building on Eastern Parkway who, once they met you, knew which floor to take you, no questions asked.
It may have been the formality of such buildings or just the times that people always seemed well-dressed getting on and off the elevators and passing through the lobbies. Suits, ties, and hats for the men. Dresses or suits and hats for the women. (One afternoon, an elevator operator brought a cab load of Jackie Kennedy look-a-likes to the lobby! Coming from lunch or cards, no doubt.)
Although the buildings stacked apartments one on top another in pretty much the same way, floor plans varied wildly. Just because you had friends in the same building, didn't mean their places were the same. These were jig-saw puzzles of intricate parts arranged enfillade, pinwheel, or split-level style, decorated in anything from Louis XIV to Bauhaus modern. Duplexes were the best, of course. One very gloomy number on New York or Brooklyn Avenue, I think, had a particularly forbidding interior courtyard. But once crossed, it gave into the coziest little two-story units with wood stairs and bow windows, a complete surprise on the first visit. (I'm sure these were chopped up!)
I remember reading about New York City history in elementary school. Turning the text book's page, I came across a sweeping photograph of Eastern Parkway that, the caption read, was "lined with many fine apartment houses."
Too bad Crown Heights' new builders have given up on the tradition.
Nostalgic on Park Avenue
BCHM: Back to Crown Heights Movement
Posted by: guest at February 4, 2008 4:52 PM
lord.
Posted by: guest at February 4, 2008 4:54 PM
Brenda from Flatbush, clearly you have never been to a fertility clinic, because if you had, you would know that Hasidic jews represent a surprisingly large percentage of the people in the waiting room. Breeding with first and second cousins does not make a particularly fertile ethnic group.
Posted by: guest at February 4, 2008 5:33 PM
I hate it when developers build ugly-ass buildings and then allow buyers to choose to have balconies (or not). Random smattering of ugly balconies, destined to fill up with dead shrubs in pots, bikes, Big Wheels, and BBQs. No likey.
My suggestion to the gay guy who got hissed at: next time, bark at her. Like a dog. Or tell her, "Nice wig."
Posted by: Rehab at February 4, 2008 6:20 PM
my bf suggested "nice wig" also.
mine was more along the lines of f*ck your mother, but then we thought it would be great if either of us had the balls to say f*ck your rabbi.
not very mature, but it sure would have been fun!
Posted by: guest at February 4, 2008 7:28 PM
I will say those enormous beaver-fur hats are fabulous beyond belief.
But the white stockings ruin the look. Note to 18-century Polish noblemen: black trousers, black socks. Your socks need to match your pants, not your shoes (and this is true today, peeeps). Capisce?
But still: the hats! Oh, sheared beaver!
Posted by: Rehab at February 5, 2008 12:19 AM
In some of the comments they are concerned with the look of the buildings being put up for the Orthodox. As a tenant who lives in a building that is owned and operated by a Lubavitch I can tell you they are not concerned with the outside of any building. They have never cleaned properly, kept up the front or planted one plant in front of their building. Their apartment, that they occupy, is like a fake old world palace but their garden and front of the building is totally neglected. I sometimes feel I live in a blighted area not in the east side of Manhattan. These people are not taught to garden and have no sense of style.About the size of their families how sad that their area in Brooklyn is the poorest and collects the most welfare of any white population in New York. But they continue to have large families. Sorry that all our local politicians cater to these cult Lubavitch.
Posted by: guest at February 5, 2008 11:45 AM
I know that many of these families have Section 8 or some other form of rent subsidies in order to afford their rents. Are these types of "kosher" developments only open to low income hasidic families or can anyone apply?
Posted by: guest at February 5, 2008 12:01 PM
If I were hissed at by a Hassidic, I'd knock the dradle wearing fucha back to Israel
Posted by: guest at February 5, 2008 1:29 PM
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