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February 7, 2008
4th Avenue, the Boulevard of Broken Promises?
Streetsblog takes an in-depth look at how 4th Avenue has developed since the ’03 upzoning (when Marty Markowitz said it would become "a grand boulevard of the 21st Century"), and it doesn’t like what it sees. Crappy architecture? Check. “The Novo looms fortress-like over the playground next door, while…the Crest greets passersby with man-sized industrial vents.” Negative contributions to street life? Check. “These new developments turn their back on the public realm. They burden the sidewalk with intake vents, garage doors and curb cuts while encouraging future residents to go take advantage of the healthy street life and public amenities just up the block.” But is there hope? Maybe. Massey Knakal’s Ken Freeman, who specializes in the area, believes there’s a place for large stores on the strip, and that more developers will choose to go mixed-use, rather than straight-up residential, with their buildings. Freeman says that even the Novo and Crest could possibly be (somewhat) salvaged: "I do think there's an opportunity to retrofit." What do you think? Any reason to be hopeful?
New York Can Do Better Than the “New Fourth Avenue” [Streetsblog]
Interesting Question: Does Brooklyn's 'New Park Avenue' Suck? [Curbed]
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Comments
Plant some fuckin' trees, greedy developers!
Posted by: guest at February 7, 2008 9:35 AM
Its not like the place was that great to begin with, at least this is a start...
Posted by: guest at February 7, 2008 9:38 AM
"The next development cycle may be ten years away," says Freeman.
Posted by: guest at February 7, 2008 9:40 AM
Can anyone tell me why it has taken something like 4 years (and counting) for that Con Ed building (across the street from Crest) to go from groundbreaking to (will they ever) move in?
Posted by: guest at February 7, 2008 9:41 AM
yeah, and how exactly did the monstrosity looming over mcdonald's manage to climb 12 stories even though it's on FIRST STREET?????
Posted by: guest at February 7, 2008 9:45 AM
Can someone tell me why Alba auto repair is so great?
Is it because its right next to McDonalds?
Posted by: guest at February 7, 2008 9:49 AM
I had my car fixed there once. They used fricking french fry grease to lube it!
Posted by: guest at February 7, 2008 9:51 AM
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Heard all of this before. Face it: as much as readers of this site are in love with Sesame Street brownstone neighborhoods, much of Brooklyn is ugly. Ugly. It's not that charming a place. These little enclaves of 'charm' surrounded by blight. Still lovin' Brooklyn?
Posted by: guest at February 7, 2008 9:54 AM
9:45, the R8A zoning district extends 150-feet back from Fourth Avenue. Since the McDonalds lot is not that deep, the zoning extends beyond the "restaurant."
Posted by: g man at February 7, 2008 9:54 AM
Wow, I never thought I'd wish McDonald's had a bigger parking lot, but... there you go!
Posted by: guest at February 7, 2008 10:05 AM
Amen, 9:54.
I like what is happening on Fourth Avenue and consider it a major improvement to what was there before the new buildings arrived. Plus, the new businesses (4th Avenue Pub, Cherry Tree, Mule, Pacific Standard, Sheep Station)are great.
Posted by: guest at February 7, 2008 10:10 AM
"Still lovin' Brooklyn?"
Yes. Absolutely. And what charming place are you dialing in from?
Posted by: guest at February 7, 2008 10:19 AM
It's not as ugly as Queens and parts of the Bronx, but Brooklyn has plenty of butt-ugly.
Behind your lace curtains on your tree-lined street, however, you can probably block it out of your mind.
Posted by: guest at February 7, 2008 10:24 AM
I find Manhattan, with its sunless canyons and teeming hordes of Eurotrash and other assorted tourists to be the fugliest borough we have.
Posted by: guest at February 7, 2008 10:28 AM
Parking lots are anti-urban.
When McDonalds decides it's not worth it to have a parking lot at that location, 4th Avenue will have arrived.
Posted by: guest at February 7, 2008 10:32 AM
Fourth Avenue is not pedestrian friendly in any shape or form. Until then, I can't imagine leisurely strolling down the Avenue on a Sunday afternoon window shopping.
Posted by: guest at February 7, 2008 10:33 AM
I love window shopping at Staples.
Posted by: guest at February 7, 2008 10:35 AM
It looks to me like the Novo WILL have retail on the ground floor but unfortunatly the Crest cannot be retrofitted since the whole ground floor is a garage (with a circular driveway - this is supposidly a major amenity).
Future developers will likely include retail because the prospects on residential alone seem more risky (why a developer wouldnt try to minimize risk even a yr ago makes no sense to me)
And anyone who thought 4th Ave was going to look like Park Ave anytime in their lifetime is an idiot, BUT 9:35 is correct - if the developers of these new buildings just did some landscaping, that plus the retail that is growing and the eventual new buildings will make the Ave reasonably attractive.
Posted by: guest at February 7, 2008 10:35 AM
hey that mickey d's parking lot is where i meet my fiends to sell my product
layoff you will hurt my business
Posted by: guest at February 7, 2008 10:36 AM
10:24 - the Bronx? yeah there are a couple of ugly neighborhoods but overall might be the nicest of all the Boros - both with beautiful boulevards and amazing topography. I love Brooklyn too but frankly boro for boro - the Bronx is nicer IMHO.
Posted by: guest at February 7, 2008 10:38 AM
"Since the McDonalds lot is not that deep, the zoning extends beyond the "restaurant."
Yes and no, g man. Yes, the overlay extends back, but it abuts an R6B district, so it can not gain the full R8A height and bulk in the rear of the property, having to step down to the R6B height or lower.
DCP Yards text amendments that's at CPC covers this loophole that would allow a 12 story building next to a 4 story (that's just one of the amendments).
Posted by: Action Jackson at February 7, 2008 10:43 AM
4th Ave is a FAR nicer stroll today then it was 3yrs ago, Think about how long Atlantic Avenue took to improve and that strip is 1/2 as wide and between 3 neighborhoods that have be gentrified forever.
These things take time.
Posted by: guest at February 7, 2008 10:43 AM
Why is Flatbush Ave right up to Grand Army (smack dab between coveted North Slope and Pros Heights) still such a god-awful, tacky dump. Plenty of time and proximity to high disposable income neighbors – and yet it still sucks. You can dump on 4th Ave all you want, but it’s changing faster than Flatbush and with less natural advantages.
Posted by: guest at February 7, 2008 10:53 AM
"Think about how long Atlantic Avenue took to improve"
What the hell are you talking about? Atlantic was at least as interesting and fun to walk down 10-15 years ago when it still had a full complement of antique stores as it is now with its overpriced chi-chi clothing and "artifact" shops.
Posted by: johnife at February 7, 2008 10:53 AM
"Why is Flatbush Ave......still such a god-awful, tacky dump?"
Yeah, well that might change in the very near future:
http://www.nysun.com/article/70892
Posted by: johnife at February 7, 2008 11:14 AM
Lending to businesses from banks is basically in lockdown mode, which leads me to believe that gentrification will stall until the credit crunch loosens up a bit.
Posted by: guest at February 7, 2008 11:22 AM
"Lending to businesses from banks is basically in lockdown mode, which leads me to believe that gentrification will stall until the credit crunch loosens up a bit."
Ding Ding Ding!! We have a winner folks. I bet some of these "Clusterfucks" we never be completed. They will have to be torn down. Banks are in Fucking Lock Down Mode, DEFCOM 3 status!!!
Some of these projects have ran out of money and can't get any more financing. The crack is all gone and the addict is searching the ground for crumbs.
This period will be remembered as the "Age of Malinvestment". Greedy and fucking wasteful spending. GOD help you if you brought into this shit storm. RIP Real Estate Mutant Bubble.
The What
Someday this war is gonna end....
Posted by: guest at February 7, 2008 11:57 AM
10:53 - you might have had a "fun" time walking down Atlantic 10-15years ago, but it was a dark dump - those antique shops may have had interesting merchandise but they were run down messes, which closed early (dark at night) brought relatively little foot traffic (except on nice weekends) and little in the way of lighting and/or window displays. (And btw - west of the BHOD the strip was full of vacancies and had no antiques)
You might not like the shops on Atlantic now but it is unquestionably a much friendlier, nicer and pedestrian-centric strip then anytime in the last 40yrs (I wasnt around before then to say)
Posted by: guest at February 7, 2008 12:45 PM
The What - "I bet some of these "Clusterfucks" we never be completed. They will have to be torn down."
Even during the Great Depression the buildings that were started in the late 20's early 30's got finished - things today will be no different.
Posted by: guest at February 7, 2008 12:47 PM
"Even during the Great Depression the buildings that were started in the late 20's early 30's got finished - things today will be no different."
I will agree with this statement. Plenty of things will be completed but, plenty of this will not be.
The What
Someday this war is gonna end...
Posted by: guest at February 7, 2008 1:07 PM
I know I probably should just ignore "The What" but here goes:
I am a real estate investor. I own a couple of buildings in Bushwick. I get my financing from a traditional lender and they are more than willing to lend on properties that make sense. I put 25% down and that has not changed in five years. These are not high risk deals and funding is still readily available.
I generally buy buildings in need of upgrading and as apartments become vacant I renovate and quickly find highly qualified tenants.
I know there is supposed to be a "credit crunch" but banks are not "lockdown mode" as far as I can tell.
Posted by: guest at February 7, 2008 2:48 PM
2:48 - I am also in the RE business (multi-family rentals) and you are 100% correct - while the spread is higher then I like (and what it should be), portfolio lenders are making loans every day.
Posted by: guest at February 7, 2008 2:51 PM
Ok Stupid. Here we go. When was the last time you looked for a mortgage or looked at a rate matrix? The risk spread is wider. Bank cannot risk capital for fucktards to buy overpriced shit. Would you loan someone money knowing the assets was falling in price?
"I am a real estate investor. I own a couple of buildings in Bushwick. I get my financing from a traditional lender and they are more than willing to lend on properties that make sense. I put 25% down and that has not changed in five years. These are not high risk deals and funding is still readily available."
No asshole, You are a fucking serf. You are working for the moneyed interest of Bankers. How much do you keep after expenses, I bet not very much. You are servicing a heavy Debt-Load and you are so fucking stupid you don't realize it. If you took the 25% and invested into emerging assets (Gold, Energy and Treasuries) you would've far ahead. Plus you wouldn't put up with tenant issues.
"I know I probably should just ignore "The What""
No Assfuck I probably should just ignore you
The What
Someday this war is gonna end...
Posted by: guest at February 7, 2008 3:02 PM
"Bank cannot risk capital for fucktards to buy overpriced shit."
You lifted that line out of the Wall Street Journal. That's cheating, What!
Posted by: guest at February 7, 2008 3:09 PM
Brownstoner;
Why do you allow "The What" and others to coarsen the dialogue of these threads? I am not requesting that any ideas be purged. Rather, I am requesting that you insist that some level of decorum be maintained. There is no reason for "The What" and others to use this type of language to express their ideas.
Posted by: guest at February 7, 2008 3:12 PM
To Mr. The What:
I generally get about a 10 to 15% pre-tax return. Any appreciation is gravy. I don't have a clue about "emerging assets" and I couldn't care less. At the end of the day, I make money every month, year after year, and I have something solid to retire on.
BTW, intelligent people can generally make their point without using obscenity, or name calling. You sound like you were raised in the gutter.
Posted by: guest at February 7, 2008 3:15 PM
"Why do you allow "The What" and others to coarsen the dialogue of these threads? I am not requesting that any ideas be purged. Rather, I am requesting that you insist that some level of decorum be maintained. There is no reason for "The What" and others to use this type of language to express their ideas."
Aw, The internet suppose to be civil. I mean you have child porn, self mutilation, shit eating and GOD know what else.
"There is no reason for "The What" and others to use this type of language to express their ideas."
No Bitch, I tried to be civil. America is fucked up by greedy fuckers and I have to pay for that. Higher Mortgage Rates, Gas Prices and Food Prices. So go fuck your self. See how that works.
The What
Someday this war is gonna end...
Posted by: guest at February 7, 2008 3:18 PM
"No asshole, You are a fucking serf. You are working for the moneyed interest of Bankers. "
Which Bankers? The ones that lost 100B on RE loans? -
Seems like a 10% return on Real Estate Income makes 2:48 a hell of alot smarter then any "bankers"
Posted by: guest at February 7, 2008 3:25 PM
"I generally get about a 10 to 15% pre-tax return. Any appreciation is gravy. I don't have a clue about "emerging assets" and I couldn't care less. At the end of the day, I make money every month, year after year, and I have something solid to retire on."
But, What if the underling assets lose value??!! In the next 5 years you will have first wave of Baby-Boomers retiring. This will put a enormous strain on our government. Plus you will have a rising interest rate and a declining Asset market. Retirement is not an option for millions of people. The main thing that no one talking about, If people walk away it could bring back Urban-Blight. You "investment could turn to shit.
"BTW, intelligent people can generally make their point without using obscenity, or name calling. You sound like you were raised in the gutter"
No Assfuck, intelligent prople do intelligent things and say intelligent shit. Iintelligent pepole don't follow the assholes off the cliff. Yes I was raised in the gutter of Bed-Stuy. Now I will say this, Go Fuck Yorrself.
The What
Someday this war is gonna end...
Posted by: guest at February 7, 2008 3:27 PM
"But, What if the underling assets lose value??!! In the next 5 years you will have first wave of Baby-Boomers retiring. This will put a enormous strain on our government. Plus you will have a rising interest rate and a declining Asset market. Retirement is not an option for millions of people. The main thing that no one talking about, If people walk away it could bring back Urban-Blight. You "investment could turn to shit."
Any investment can turn to shit you moron - Gold, oil, treasuries, etc.... all have had periods of huge declines in value. So WHAT, the What. You clearly have no idea about investing, diversification or risk
Posted by: guest at February 7, 2008 3:36 PM
Hey What - Where have you been for the last 2 weeks or so?
Despite many people wishing you would disappear above there was alot of lamenting about your absence on the boards.
Posted by: guest at February 7, 2008 3:39 PM
As one of those who quipped about the radio silence of what-the-fuck, I would like to clarify that my comment was a rejoicing, not lamentation.
Posted by: guest at February 7, 2008 4:14 PM
Two quick things:
1. How about a Crate and Barrel on 4th Ave, with a parking lot in rear? I can see all of Brownstone Brooklyn flooding there.
2. Flatbush Ave isn't great but it's getting better. Look at the stretch between Bergen and Plaza St and you'll find many new stores and restaurants that have opened in the past 5 years including the top-rated Franny's, cool boutiques like Hooti Couture, Redberri and Harriet's Alter Ego, chain stores like American Apparel, Duane Reade and more.
Posted by: guest at February 7, 2008 4:31 PM
"If you took the 25% and invested into emerging assets (Gold, Energy and Treasuries) you would've far ahead."
Of course! Why didn't we ALL think of that!! Gold, energy and treasury bonds NEVER decrease in value. Nope. Their values ALWAYS skyrocket, not like real estate. Phew! Glad that's solved.
Posted by: guest at February 7, 2008 5:30 PM
http://thehousingbubbleblog.com/js_slideshow/#42
Posted by: guest at February 7, 2008 5:47 PM
http://youtube.com/user/jjenson2006
Posted by: guest at February 7, 2008 10:32 PM
that auto repair building is for sale too.
Posted by: guest at February 8, 2008 1:31 AM
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