Taking the Pulse of Townhouse Sales in the Slope

So as a Homeowner of a multi-family dwelling, should I now concentrate on renting as opposed to selling my apartments until the market changes?

Posted by: guest at January 21, 2008 9:22 AM

I am thinking about renting "with the option" of buying. Do anyone have any experience with this? It was suggested to me by a broker. Not sure if I should trust the advice.

Posted by: guest at January 21, 2008 9:26 AM

This is ridiculous. Why does Brownstoner inssit on quoting this garbage from Brokers who are always going to be saying this? Do your own research, look at all the indicators in the market.

Posted by: guest at January 21, 2008 9:28 AM

As an homeowner of a multi-family dwelling in park slope, this sounds about right to me.

Posted by: guest at January 21, 2008 9:37 AM

I think wise brokers do exist and sorry even here,,but I do disagree with the Ruoff report. Rents are not rising and I am not sure how this finding is supported here. I am in fact some homeowners unable tor ent their properties fast enough and for what their last tenancy brought them on occasion.

Posted by: guest at January 21, 2008 9:43 AM

I think this is Right but i would rather buy in Cobble Hill Or Carroll Gardens.

Posted by: guest at January 21, 2008 10:00 AM

Let's assume this is right. Jesus, what good does it do to spread this information? Not everybody is sitting on top on a million bucks in home equity. The last thing we need is Brownstoner pumping up the market to make the rich richer.

It's like Brownstoner was walking by a homeless family panhandling in the subway, and instead of giving them a quarter, reaches into his wallet and gives $20 to an investment banker running to catch a train.

Throw us a freaking bone here, jeez.

Posted by: guest at January 21, 2008 10:27 AM

Brownstoner is an extension of the REBNY

Posted by: guest at January 21, 2008 10:35 AM

Common sense dictates that ANY report about the market put out by a broker be taken with a million grains of salt. Brokers are the ones with the most vested interest in the matter-- it's their livelihood. So why would you read about the state of the market according to them, especially when the data is today readily available for public viewing? This availability of data to everyone makes these reports irrelevant.

Posted by: guest at January 21, 2008 11:05 AM

Park Slope is softer than my dimply thighs.

Posted by: guest at January 21, 2008 11:06 AM

I totally agree with the anti-NYC real estate hype comments on this post!

I may be wrong, but I wouldn't be surprised if this is one of the last comments like this that we see before the market takes a real turn DOWNWARD. Hello! The market is changing, rents are being pulled down, but even so, the rent to own ratio is way out of proportion beyond what it's ever been in US history, and there are price cuts across the board, from the low to the high.

Even Gold Coast Manhattan has seen reductions of 30% in some cases.

If you read and listen to NYC real estate news beyond the self interested real estate brokers and firms, you will see that this ever irrational boom that the super wealthy thought would never end, is coming to a very precarious end! Prices will come down, through the floor, if not through the entire foundation, and the market will once again stabilize, but not for quite a while, so if anyone is planning to buy in or around Park Slope, my suggestion is to wait for at least a year or two, if you can.

Just be prepared for higher interest rates, and tighter lending standards, but it will hopefully lead to a more rational and healthy climate of home purchasing, and let's hope, the end of the irrational expectation that this recent housing run up was somehow good for New York and the country in general. The last thing our economy needs is another investment bubble. Why didn't we learn from the bust after the tech boom? This bust will make that one (and recent recessions since the Great Depression) look like a walk in the park!

Posted by: guest at January 21, 2008 11:11 AM

guest at January 21, 2008 11:06 AM

By that, do you mean the market is turning soft? I heartily agree, and just wait for a year or so from now. It should be even more affordable, at least relative to today's insane prices!

Posted by: guest at January 21, 2008 11:13 AM

Gabay do you have any reporting skills?
How about doing your own research rather than blindly quoting brokers. Don't you think they may be a tad bit biased?

Posted by: guest at January 21, 2008 11:30 AM

As a landlord in the Slope I can say that rents have been going up in the last few years, this is a factor for not selling. They have been going up locally and nationally. This is this gentleman's professional opinion and he probably knows better than most..

Posted by: guest at January 21, 2008 11:34 AM

And why is demand lacking in the 1-2 million dollar range? He didn't answer that question, so let me give it a try.

Because the market is soft.

Posted by: guest at January 21, 2008 11:53 AM

My good friend who is a broker told me people are no longer willing to pay $ millions for a fixer-upper, even if it's a "grandma" house in Brooklyn Heights or Park Slope. She also said bidding wars are over.

Posted by: guest at January 21, 2008 11:59 AM

My good friend who is a broker told me people are no longer willing to pay $ millions for any house, even if it's in Carroll Gardens. She also said Park Slope is "so over".

Posted by: guest at January 21, 2008 12:14 PM

Anyone know of a fixer-upper in Brooklyn Heights or Park Slope under a million? I'm buyin'.

Posted by: guest at January 21, 2008 12:16 PM

where is The What?

Posted by: guest at January 21, 2008 12:25 PM

This guy has listed and sold a lot of houses, just looked at his website. Seems to be a balanced reporting of things to me. No one obviously has a crystal ball..

Posted by: guest at January 21, 2008 12:30 PM

Demand is probably not where it was six months ago. I agree.. Prices don't seem to be going down. I received the report at my home, it goes on to say that houses that need a ton of work are sitting on the market. That is certainly been the case, look at the two huge houses on my block-- Montgomery Place listed with Elliman and Townsley and Gay.. Been sitting for a long time.

Posted by: guest at January 21, 2008 12:33 PM

Rents have been going up in Park Slope, might not be the case going forward. Rents have not been going down. Is this person under a rock who indicated this in an earlier post. I am a landlord and this had been a deciding factor for not selling in the past, I was getting more money from my two tenants..

Posted by: guest at January 21, 2008 12:40 PM

i own, don't rent, but everyone around me who rents is having real problems. know a couple of people who moved in the last year from rentals - all associated with sky rocketing increases and had tons of trouble finding new rentals, and had to spend more.

Posted by: guest at January 21, 2008 12:43 PM

Fox reports, "Henhouse is secure."

Posted by: guest at January 21, 2008 1:12 PM

houses in park slope are taking a lot longer to sell, especially those that need work. I think it is a hard time in the market- people are showing up to my open houses in droves for the things under 500k but not those above.

Posted by: guest at January 21, 2008 1:14 PM

Rents in Park Slope depressing inventory in the sales market in Park Slope? I don't think so. There are so many other macro and micro trends. What about condo conversions, what about people not wanting to have tenants paying less than the value of their apts in rent (you don't get the equivalent of $500k invested in rent for 1/4 of your new 4 story bstone purchase.) Please can Mr. Ruoff cite sources for the facts behind his hypothesis?

Posted by: guest at January 21, 2008 1:49 PM

Yep--saying rents are depressing inventory is a way to avoid the whole issue of a...possibly softer market? Prices adjusting to a new economic reality? It's an attempt to avoid the 400 lb gorilla in the room.

Posted by: guest at January 21, 2008 4:25 PM

If you look at the house stock in Park Slope, it is mostly made up of families who own brownstones with one or possibly two rental units. The older folks have definitely been using the rental income to support their incomes. With rental prices dramatically increasing over the last year, this income has assisted these older folks keep their houses with increases in taxes, maint., and insurances. Seems clear to me.. they don't need to contemplate selling

Posted by: guest at January 21, 2008 5:23 PM

I received this newsletter in the mail. Some people may be taking this out of context, Brownstoner only quoted one small piece of this four page report. If you read the entire report it would be understood by most people ie: this is not all Ruoff is saying...

Posted by: guest at January 21, 2008 5:26 PM

This broker is saying that the market remains fairly strong, low inventory, less demand,rents have been healthy. What is total bullshit? I don't see anything..

Posted by: guest at January 21, 2008 6:03 PM

This broker is saying that the market remains fairly strong, low inventory, less demand,rents have been healthy. What is total bullshit? I don't see anything..

Posted by: guest at January 21, 2008 6:08 PM

Park Slope is over. Backlash in effect.

Posted by: guest at January 21, 2008 6:25 PM

This guy is talking about brownstones in the prime of PS and PH. From the looks of his website he has certainly represented lots of sellers and buyers. I don't think he is stating to rosy a picture. I would like to see the entire report. One poster said it was four pages, what does the rest say?

Posted by: guest at January 21, 2008 6:27 PM

This guy is also a broker who needs to keep getting those listings. And the flyer is mailed to Park Slope homeowners, so... draw your own conclusions.

Posted by: guest at January 21, 2008 6:36 PM

Conclusions on what? That the guy is industrious. I would be doing the same thing if I where him. That is a stupid comment. Probably a jealous broker...

Posted by: guest at January 21, 2008 7:00 PM

The Park Slope market is changing but just in the past two months or so. His report is stating numbers from the third quarter, don't seem to be out of wack with what I am seeing. Rents have been increasing alot, also true on a national basis. Rents have kept the old seniors afloat. I am an older senior and I know..

Posted by: guest at January 21, 2008 7:13 PM

If a house (or apartment) is sitting on the market, it isn't priced right. That's the definition of a market. If someone is serious about selling, they will agree to sell a price someone is willing to pay. If it is less than they think they should get (another house nearby sold for 3 million, whine, why won't mine sell for 3 million? - the market must be soft!) overlooks that there was something about that other house that made a buyer want to pay 3 million (hint: that something meant the house was nicer than yours - to the market, if not to you.)

And, sure, if you bought a multi-family house when prices were cheaper, than you are really doing well as rents have gone up, which they generally do...

And if people are having trouble renting their apartments out, maybe they need to recognize that as the housing stock has been renovated and improved over the past few decades, they aren't competing with the same old shoddy workmanship, bare bones rentals anymore - if people are paying a bunch for the apartments, they expect them to be maintained a bit nicer these days...and, as more neighborhoods in Brooklyn have been gentrified and renovated, people looking into renting renovated apartments in Brooklyn neighborhoods with commercial amenities have a much wider range of brownstone neighborhoods to chose from now ... so it means you are competing with more landlords. It doesn't mean the rental market is soft...

Posted by: guest at January 21, 2008 7:45 PM

Seems like the guy who wrote this thing is on here defending his position and encouraging us all to read his hype. What a unique use of brownstoner -- not! Why is brownstoner quoting this report? It isn't based on any facts. Just based on the fact that this broker wants more business.

Posted by: guest at January 21, 2008 7:45 PM

It's all speculation anyway - people sell homes for different reasons - they move, they get tired of being landlords, they die, they downsize, they upsize, they want to take out their rise in equity and do something else with the money - to say it is because of the rents they collect alone is silly.

Posted by: guest at January 21, 2008 8:16 PM

This report is similar to what I've seen also.

I love all the people who said that no was was buying this past summer and fall during the subprime meltdown and now that real, live information proves you wrong, you just push it back and say the worst is yet to come.

We've been hearing this for years. By this point, my home has gone up in value 200% (so have many other folks) so a 15% drop in home prices doesn't really matter. Not to me, anyway.

To the comments that Park Slope is over...

So was the les, so was the east village, so was hells kitchen, so was dumbo. Every NYC neighborhood is "over" at some point. It's usually the best time to buy, because any smart person knows that every neighorhood close to Manhattan is going to be worth something and will come and go into fashion.

Park Slope has and will continue to be a nice neighborhood whether you personally think it's over or not.

And to the dimwit who said rent prices are going down...how about looking at more than the last few months.

Over the course of time, rents in NYC have done nothing but skyrocket. 7 years ago I paid 1400 for a prime park slope 2 bedroom.

Now you can get much for a nice studio in the slope. Or an OK 1 bedroom.

Having rental tenants is a huge plus for sure.

Posted by: guest at January 21, 2008 8:34 PM

To the post at 8:16, you are reading one paragraph of a four page report which Brownstoner has indicated above, did you ever think that this could be taken out of context? Hey, I might not agree entirely with Ruoff, however, if rents dropped by 15 - 20 % I am sure that a number of these brownstones would come on the market and people would take their capital gains hit and invest in tax free bonds or something as the maintenance of these buildings is extremely high. Most of the people who own the prime housing stock in The Slope are not wealthy, they are people who purchased twenty and thirty years ago. If rental prices can down significantly there is no doubt more of these places would hit the market... just common sense

Posted by: guest at January 21, 2008 9:10 PM

Why shouldn't this guy seek to get more business? Obviously, he has a track record which is more than I can say for the average broker who I have dealt with in the past.

Posted by: guest at January 21, 2008 9:13 PM

Simply put, people who own 2 million dollar brownstones don't really need to sell anytime soon. They understand that they can sit on their equity and collect some rent for a couple of years. Why would they think to sell in a so-called "buyer's market"? The folks being squeezed right now are the flippers in marginal neighborhoods who don't have as much equity as they thought and middle class families looking for a larger place in city limits. Add to this mix, the Manhattan price factor which defies the entire national trend and you have an idea of the current market. Also note that the population of NYC is getting larger by the year, people always need food and shelter.

Posted by: guest at January 21, 2008 9:13 PM

I wouldn't say it's a buyer's market. At all.

Posted by: guest at January 21, 2008 9:25 PM

"I wouldn't say it's a buyer's market. At all."

You're right. That would imply there are buyers.

Posted by: guest at January 21, 2008 9:32 PM

This is totally ridiculous. Rents are going up in Manhattan and that is putting pressure on people to buy and that pushes prices up across the boards in terms of rentals in the more desireable areas in the NYC area. Also more people are renting because they don't want to buy now. This is basic real estate economics. It's called supply and demand. Most landlords aren't trading on a short term position type thing. They have a crazy little thing called capital gains to deal with. They don't care if rents go down. They don't want to pay capital gains taxes.

Posted by: guest at January 21, 2008 10:20 PM

I own a brownstone and we depend on rental income for the garden apartment. Our rental income has gone up A LOT in the last three years.

That said, I am worried about all these new building going up on 4th Avenue. I don't think the condos will all sell -- and because they are condos, they can be rented. The number of rentals will increase, and rental prices will drop. Good for renters, bad for landlords.

Or is there another scenario?

Posted by: guest at January 21, 2008 10:51 PM

if all the people who were in on the buying frenzy of the pas few years now choose to rent instead of buy, there will be more demand for rentals, thus higher prices.

so if you REALLY think prices are going to crash hard, you should be prepared to pay a lot higher rents to compete with all the people cashing out of their homes, foreclosing and generally not buying houses as you all seem to claim.

either way, i'm happy i own. even if the price of my house decreases of the next couple years. i bought here for a place to live on a fixed cost without having to deal with wondering each year whether or not i could afford the impending rest increase that of course came every year i was a renter.

personally the thought that i'll have the same housing cost for the next possibly 29 years if i don't move, that sounds great to me. at least i know what it will be. that gives me a lot of peace of mind.

Posted by: guest at January 21, 2008 11:00 PM

Wait, where exactly is this neighborhood Park Slope?

Posted by: guest at January 22, 2008 2:45 AM

IF the condos don't sell on Fourth Avenue then a huge influx will come on the market for rent. We are starting to see negative pressure on rents. Rents will most likely not increase if we are in a deep recession it just makes common sense.

Posted by: guest at January 22, 2008 8:05 AM

why doesn't it make sense, 8:05?

rents increased during the last recession...

if less people are buying, more people are renting.

landlords don't care if we are in a recession or not, if there is increased demand for their apartments.

you are assuming there will be a mass exodus from new york city.

which makes little sense because the rest of the country is far worse off than nyc at this given time.

Posted by: guest at January 22, 2008 10:56 AM

No, what I am saying is that similiar to Florida, if a ton of the 4th Avenue places find no buyers then the developers are going to have to rent them, bringing down prices.

Posted by: guest at January 22, 2008 11:15 AM

this is nothing like florida.

most of those condos were bought by either flippers, or people who bought them as investments and never lived there. there's a big difference between that and buying a place to live in. how is nyc like tampa?

i see neither of those scenarios playing out on 4th avenue.

what condos are you talking about anyway? novo, crest and even argyle are more than 60% sold. i believe novo is more like 75% sold.

Posted by: guest at January 22, 2008 11:41 AM

Let's see how they do with the remaining units and how many flippers and buyers who wish to rent them get their prices, if we go into a recession there will be no trees along this area, and the place will look bleak and ugly. The rents will be low. The only people who purchase along 4th Avenue are the folks who can't afford to live near the Park for the same amount of space

Posted by: guest at January 22, 2008 4:11 PM

I agree that it is worthless to read/quote Brokers' commentary. The only useful information they should provide is data (i.e. prices asked, prices sold, locations etc). They will never provide any valuable interpretation to any trend as their main objective is to keep the market prices high.

Just look at the listings in the NYT. Look at the listings for the new developments on -hideous but up & coming- 4th avenue that remain unsold or -like the Argyle- in the middle of construction.

Brokers have not modified any pricing even though the market has crashed all week, everyone acknowledges the onset of recession, the regulation of the mortgage industry, the elimination of exotic mortgages and the difficulty experienced by credity worthy borrowers to obtain a plain vanilla mortgage.

Most brokers have not/will not change any price even if they are negotiable or the sellers are willing to accept less. This is mainly because their commission depends on it and they will be lauded by colleagues in the industry for "making the sale in a tuff market" (i.e. finding the idiot among us).

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 11:29 PM

To the last post, selling real estate is based on supply and demand. If you think most brokers keep prices artifically high to obtain higher commissions then you are completely ignorant. Some may, I do not. It is not in the best interest of the seller nor of the firm who has the listing to employ this philsophy. You attempt to price a townhouse based upon: location, condition, buyer preferences, width, comparable sales, etc.. Clearly it is not an exact science and obviously many listings come to the market insanely overpriced from the start. This can be attributed in many cases to a broker/agent's hope that if they provide an aggressive price they are assured to obtain the listing. This most often backfires and this speaks more closely to the point you raised above. Pick an agent/firm with clear track records of selling many houses, interview former sellers, ask for references, make certain that the firm you pick will co-broke with other real estate firms and demand this in writing as many of the smaller players will provide lip service but rarely back it up. Look for an agent who has demonstrated the ability to get the job done well.

In today's market banks are becoming more financially responsible for assessing value prior to extending financing. So the so called "idiot among us" (from the prior post)can provide an offer subject to appropriate bank financing being obtained and reduce the risk of overpaying.

In the Park Slope market we are fortunate that supply is low and prices remain at healthy levels..

Sincerely,

Charlie Ruoff
Brown Harris Stevens

Posted by: guest at January 29, 2008 10:17 PM