Stuck in the Middle

The END of New York. Let's call this city Paris deux or zombie city.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 9:08 AM

sad commentary - The only "sense of entitlement" here is people who beleive they are entitled to live in prime neighborhoods despite their lower income levels. It is not cheap to live in the best neighborhoods in Brooklyn and Manhattan - so what? How is that different than anywhere else in the country?

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 9:24 AM

There is a shift going on from those with higher incomes living father away from the center of the city to those with higher incomes living closer in. That is a good bit of what is going on.

There was a time when physicians lived on the Grand Concourse, and middle class people would choose to live in Canrasie and not Williamsburg. The middle class could afford the Concourse and Canarsie today, but do not want it. Post housing bust, expect middle class areas like the south short of Nassau County to be very affordable.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 9:27 AM

9:27 - Did you mean "South Shore of Nassau County" in your comment?

If so, I agree these areas are ripe to absorb the "Entitled" middle class priced out of the city.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 9:34 AM

'It is not cheap to live in the best neighborhoods in Brooklyn and Manhattan'

The best neighborhoods in Brooklyn should not include Bed Sty, Clinton Hill, Crown Heights, etc., Which are unaffordable for the middle class.

NYC is going to be full of the super rich and the poor. The middle class will flee to the suburbs, leaving areas of NYC riddled with crime, drugs, burnt out buildings. Does this sound familar.

In support of housing for Middle Class New York

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 9:37 AM

"It's not cheap to live in the best neighborhoods..."

I'd agree if we were talking about historically expensive areas, such as the Upper East Side or Brooklyn Heights. But Bed Stuy? Crown Heights? The best neighborhoods are now defined as anything within a short walking distance to a subway station.

We are now seeing a reversal of the 50's and 60's when "white flight" sent families to the burbs. Pretty soon a person's wealth will be measured not by how big his house is but by how short his commute is.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 9:45 AM

"sad commentary - The only "sense of entitlement" here is people who beleive they are entitled to live in prime neighborhoods despite their lower income levels. It is not cheap to live in the best neighborhoods in Brooklyn and Manhattan - so what? How is that different than anywhere else in the country?"

The poor neighborhoods was OK until the fucking Mutants pushed the poor and middle class out!! You has these asshats moving in and jacking up prices. Plus inflation from this Mutant Real Estate Bubble is killing everyone. But, help is on the way! When this shits implodes, maybe the Zombies will get the fuck out of here and we can get our "Hood" back.

The What

Someday this war is gonna end..

BTW The Stock Market has given back the gains of 2007. We are is crash mode. 2008 (Fuck You Year).

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 9:49 AM

My commute is just under 20 minutes - I must close to the Bloomberg wealth categorey.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 9:50 AM

The rich won't flee the city, but only the rich and the poor will inhabit nyc and most of them will come from somewhere other than this city.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 9:54 AM

"the poor neighborhoods WAS ok"
"you HAS these asshats"

Jeeze what a loser you are.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 9:56 AM

"The best neighborhoods in Brooklyn should not include Bed Sty, Clinton Hill, Crown Heights, etc., Which are unaffordable for the middle class."

Unaffordable according to who? If you think you are entitled to a 3 family in Crown heights near the subway, define affordable.

You can rent family sized apartments in these areas for well under 2K. Is that not affordable for middle class?

Obviously this is going to turn into another class warfare bout - But FYI: Under $150K is not middle class for a family in NYC, sorry folks it just aint.

If you are a family of four making $150K in the 3 neighborhoods mentioned, they are very very affordable - I was at this income level 2 years ago and easily afforded a place in the South Slope.

If you are a family of 4 making $80,000, you are not middle class in NYC - Not even close!

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 9:56 AM

'middle class' leaving the city has been going on for decades for varying reasons.
OF course many opponents of rent-stabilization and mitchel-lama programs on this site - but they have helped retain a middle class in this city...and decreasing number of apts. with these controls is futher adding to 'fleeing middle class'.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 10:12 AM

9:56am - If 43k is the average annual income in NYC, than what income is middle class? 500K??

You are delussioned to think that a 'Middle class family' earning 150K wants to rent for the rest of their lives and pay $$ to a landlord.

Your ideal middle class family earning 150K wants to buy a home. The American dream. They're entitled to it.

Do the math Bubba.
150k - after taxes = 8,500 - 9,300 month
Even if they can find an 800k house, they will be paying $5600 in mortgage.
That is more than half their pay.

You're right this is going to turn into a class warfare bout, cause during the real estate boom in NYC, Middle Class housing was not getting built. It's now a little too late to address it, with a recession looming.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 10:21 AM

10:12 - Rent control/stabilization and other attempts to help the "middle class" are perfect examples of the law of unintended consequences. The result has been a substantial (but diminishing) stock of apartments occupied by a lucky few. Meanwhile, anyone who didn't win the rent lottery must compete with everyone else for the resulting smaller stock of market rate apartments. The prices of apartments in this smaller stock are higher than they would otherwise be (supply/demand and all that) BECAUSE of rent control. Sorry for the basic economics lesson, but the fact that $150,000/year professionals often can't afford Manhattan or Prime Brooklyn is in no small part a result of the very policies that were intended to help the "middle class" (a more manipulated and abused term is difficult to imagine, but I generally take it to mean anyone making between $80 and $150k in New York).

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 10:24 AM

"the poor neighborhoods WAS ok"
"you HAS these asshats"

Jeeze what a loser you are.

Type fast let go stupid!

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Oh did I piss you off??!!! Jeeze go fuck your self

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 10:39 AM

Although not nearly as important as whether or not housing is affordable in the city, somewhere, the idea has become cemented in our society, that not only does each child need a separate bedroom, but everyone in the house is entitled to their own bathroom, preferably en suite.

We had one bathroom in our entire house, growing up. We dealt.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 10:47 AM

"9:56am - If 43k is the average annual income in NYC, than what income is middle class? 500K??"

Duh - It median, not average income. It is heavily skewed due to the $0 Project Dwellers and Welfare beneficiaries. Take them out of the picture and you will get a very different #.

"Your ideal middle class family earning 150K wants to buy a home. The American dream. They're entitled to it."

Wrong again - They are entitled to NOTHING. They can live the American dream somewhere else. Who says they should be living in an $800,000 home in Brooklyn? So sad people, get over it. If you can afford it - great, if not, whinning about it will not change the reality that more desireable places do not automatically warrant an affordable place for you to exist in it.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 10:51 AM

"The best neighborhoods in Brooklyn should not include Bed Sty, Clinton Hill, Crown Heights, etc., Which are unaffordable for the middle class."

Not true. Rents in these areas ARE affordable to the middle class. Middle class types can also find homes they can afford if they are willing to look hard enough and be flexible and creative. The article is presumptive and incorrectly draws broad conclusions from limited, anectdotal information.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 10:51 AM

Im entitled to a bedroom for every child, Im entitled to have a short commute, Im entitled to live near the subway, Im entitled to own an $800,000 house in Brooklyn, Im entitled to low rent, Im entitled to the best school distric, Im entitled...

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 10:54 AM

10:24 - oh please. Are you really trotting that old argument out when the proportion of rent controlled and stabilized apts is now so small as to be insignificant? In the buildings themselves it will jack up rents (I have a friend paying $1200 for a three bedroom on CPW, same apt next door is going for $10,000) but to say that it still effects overall rents in the city is ridiculous. High rents in this city right now come from the high price of land and fat mortgages.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 10:55 AM

Its nothing to do with typing fast, they are not typos. You can't get basic subject-verb agreement. Get back to 3rd grade and brush up.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 10:55 AM

"Wrong again - They are entitled to NOTHING. They can live the American dream somewhere else. Who says they should be living in an $800,000 home in Brooklyn? So sad people, get over it. If you can afford it - great, if not, whinning about it will not change the reality that more desireable places do not automatically warrant an affordable place for you to exist in it.:

Yo asshole, unaffordable places was affordable before this fucking Mutant Real Estate Bubble!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now you have Assholes like yourself saying "great, if not, whinning about it will not change the reality that more desireable places do not automatically warrant an affordable place for you to exist in it".

I hope it's you getting skullfucked when the crash happens. You fucktards will find out about 'Unaffordable Neighborhoods'. Clinton Hill, Bed Stuy and Crown Heights will be affordable again, after the crash. Punk Assed Keyboard Warriors!!!!!!

The What

Someday this war is gonna end....

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 11:01 AM

Its nothing to do with typing fast, they are not typos. You can't get basic subject-verb agreement. Get back to 3rd grade and brush up.

Well.. maybe you can help me. Let's set a date.

The What

Someday this war is gonna end.....

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 11:02 AM

10:51 and 10:54- where do you come from? It is pretty depressing to see people like you taking over this city and telling middle class people that they have no right to live here and no right to even bemoan the fact that they can't afford to live here. It is completely depressing and awful that the only people who can now afford to live in Manhattan are wall streeters, lawyers and trust funders and it is very depressing that people making 80-150k can barely afford to live in a decent place in brooklyn. It is definitely something to be concerned about. what right do yo have to tell all these people to shut up and move to the suburbs? Some of the most interesting, most "new york-y" people I know have been priced out of brooklyn and I think it sucks - this giant disparity between the super-haves and everyone else is an ominous sign of a society in decline.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 11:06 AM

10:55 - old argument or not, I was responding to someone who was implicitly advocating an EXPANSION of rent control/stabilization. The current proportion is pretty irrelevant to my general point that, in a city of finite housing stock, taking some of that stock out of the "market" via regulation will increase prices on the stock that remains. You are a fool if you think it will do otherwise.

I'm not so confident as you that rent control/stabilization has NO effect on today's average prices, though I admit there are more powerful market forces at work here these days. Regardless, the City should be very careful in the future before going forward with any more heavy handed attempts to "help" the middle class find housing. It would be a much bigger help to the middle class (myself included) if they eliminated the City's absurdly high income tax.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 11:12 AM

10:54 Here - Lived in BK all of my life, went to colelge for something useful, work hard and make decent money. My right to tell people to move if they cant afford it is my right as an American. What right to you have to dictate what is affordable or not? What right do you have to expect that living in NYC should be affordable for all who choose to live here?

Thats right, you can choose to live anywhere in the country you want. I would like to live in Orange County, California - But I dont. Why? Because I cant afford it on my salary...I could also go to Mississippi and live like a Saudi Prince, but I dont want to live there either. So here I am, Middle class in NYC. I can afford it, but with some sacrifices and discomfort. When I beocme truly upper-class (Over 500K) maybe I will decide to move to Manahattan or Greenwich, but it is still my choice which is limited to what I can afford. I dont expect that I am entitled to anything.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 11:16 AM

The reality at least for the more desirable parts of Brooklyn is that for those residents who could afford to buy 15-10 years ago AND DID on a "middle class income" are finding out that everything is starting to grow beyond their reach. Pre K child care alone for working families can be as much as their monthly mortgage payments. I know many working people who own two familiy homes who could not even afford to rent their own market rate apartments anymore.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 11:20 AM

11:06 - The hyper liberal "Entitlement" crowd in this city is a far more ominous sign of a society in decline. Why do you think so many immigrants come here and are so successful owning their own business and quickly accumulating wealth. It is becuase they come here with nothing and thrive in an opportunity to work hard, be diligent, take risks, and succeed.

They do not feel they are entitled to anything and earn everything they get.

What have you done to earn all of the things you bemoan? Your sense of entitlement keeps you from achieving success and holds you back - creating a strain on society to answer your calls for equality and fairness. Why should we, the hardworking and successful risk takers make sure you share in our fortunes when you have done nothing to further your own finaincial position?

Yes you have the right to be here, but you are not entitled to it. That, you have earn.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 11:27 AM

"I'd agree if we were talking about historically expensive areas, such as the Upper East Side or Brooklyn Heights. But Bed Stuy? Crown Heights? The best neighborhoods are now defined as anything within a short walking distance to a subway station."

Guest 9:45 AM, historically Clinton Hill, Bed-Stuy, Crown Heights were built to accomodate rich people and well to do families. Those brownstones and mansions were not built for poor black people. Black people acquired these properties only after whites fled to the suburbs to avoid living near African Americans.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 11:33 AM

"They can live the American dream somewhere else. Who says they should be living in an $800,000 home in Brooklyn"

Tell me then who should be living in an 800k house in Brooklyn...a rich person. HUH!! I'd like to see that. A rich banker living in an 800K townhouse in Crown Heights North. (1st he has to find the bargain, cause a house for that price is hard to find, even in that nabe), and I'd like to see him/her walk to the train and get on it and commute to the city.

You are so delusioned about what you are. You are no longer middle class. You think you're rich. How sad for you.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 11:36 AM

I think we should hire Sho'Nuff (the Shogun of Harlem) to shut up The What.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shogun_of_Harlem_(character)

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 11:36 AM

Check the "Just Sold" Section:

PROSPECT PARK SOUTH $400,000
1409 Albemarle Road GMAP
2-bedroom, 1-bath, 1,000-sq.-ft. co-op

Doesnt this scream middle class?

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 11:40 AM

Hey 11:36 - Never said I was rich, quite the contrary. I am not a rich banker and agree they would not buy an $800K house in CH. But I am not an slouch city employee or sales associate at target either. No, in fact I am part of the real NYC middle class - Earning under 500K and able to afford an $800K home easily. Professionals like architects, accountants, financial analysts, executive assitants, store managers, sales people, etc. can easily afford a place like that - especially if they are a 2 income family.

Sorry you went to school for "Communications" or English Literature - Dont think you are middle class though.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 11:46 AM

There are plenty of affordable places out there in Bklyn for income 80-150K. There are charter schools, parochial (scaled for multiple children)and private if the $ makes sense vs. suburbs: commuting, taxes, abiliity to work and personal utility cost/benefit for factors that can only be described as highly personal.

So you didn't buy during the boom. You also weren't born a peasant in China or India (and your odds were greater for the latter). Make your own choices and move on Anger and bitterness solve nothing. If you took your 600K to an upscale suburb then you'd be complaining about the guy with the house on the hill and the narrow mindedness of some neighbors (who you'd better like because the the #'s are down).

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 11:51 AM

Average starting salary in NYC for Professionals (Accountants, Finance, Engineers, Architects, etc. excluding wall-streeters) is around 50-60K. Within 3 years these people are making 75K+. Double that for a couple and tada - NYC real middle class. Add in Wall Street related fields, highly paid corporate managers, small business owners, sales people, insurance professionals, etc. and you have LITERALLY MILLIONS OF PEOPLE who can handily afford to live here.

Dream on if you think the cheap housing you are entitled is coming your way - It is not. Go back to school and join the real middle class.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 11:56 AM

"I hope it's you getting skullfucked when the crash happens."

Like, WHEN is it going to happen? First you say it WILL happen, then you say it IS happening, then you say it HAS happened. I get the feeling that you are not quite sure of the timing on this cataclysmic event. Nail down a date.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 12:00 PM

A household earning 150K, at the suggested 35% of income going toward housing, should be spending $3,300/month.

If they want to buy a house they'd have to find one for 500K.

Where in NYC can a middle class household earning 150K find a home for $500K?

OK, brokers that troll this sight, it's time for you to address this issue, since you and your greedy clients are too blame.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 12:03 PM

Its easy:

"unaffordable places WAS affordable"

should be

"unaffordable places WERE affordable".

You'll get the idea soon enough. Just work on identifying singular vs plural.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 12:06 PM

"10:51 and 10:54- where do you come from? It is pretty depressing to see people like you taking over this city and telling middle class people that they have no right to live here and no right to even bemoan the fact that they can't afford to live here."

I'm 10:51, and I come from Brooklyn, New York. I was born and raised in East New York, and now own a house in Crown Heights. I'm not from a rich family, just middle class. My Dad was a correction officer and my Mom a teacher). I'm not a Wall Streeter, lawyer or trust funder. Just a guy who worked hard, put himself through school, got a partner, rented and saved for years and finally bought a home in my hometown. I'm not telling anyone to move to the suburbs - that's up to them. I'm just saying they can still rent or even buy in Brooklyn if they take the right approach. You need to stop complaining, grow up and face reality. Anything is achievable if you have a plan, motivation and determination.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 12:11 PM

12:03 - Bay Ridge, Sheepshead Bay, Kew Gardes, Jamaica, Queens Village, Canairse, Hollis, Kensington, Windsor Terrace, Etc, Etc. Even the "Coop of the Day" was a nice 1,000 sq foot coop for 400K near Prospect Park.

Oh, but I imagine these palces are not really what you are talking about right? You want a 500K place that is huge and close to Manhattan in an upscale neighborhood, with good schools and easy access to the subway i'll bet. But with a few sacrifices, anyone can afford to live here, just not in every single neighborhood - sorry.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 12:11 PM

"Where in NYC can a middle class household earning 150K find a home for $500K?"

Canarsie
Ozone Park
Bushwick
Gravesend
Ridgewood
Bensonhurst
Jackson Heights
Ocean Hill
Springfield Gardens
Spring Creek (East New York)
Flatlands
Dyker Heights
Georgetown (Canarsie area)

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 12:16 PM

Ahhh, the realtors are out. Thanks for the leads

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 12:20 PM

If I wanted to stay in the city, I'd rent and save and wait. If you don't then why are you even reading this site. Start your own site called "The Aluminium Siders" or "Rural Rocks" (i dunno).
If you do want to stay in NYC, it's much easier to look where you live, you are establishing ties, and learning about different areas while you rent. If you don't have a good dependable income stream, save as much for a downpayment as possible. Bay Ridge, LIC, Astoria, Gravesend (for the openness and proximity to the Beach) are some of my favs. It's all in the planning as someone said previously. Good Luck.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 12:31 PM

South Bronx

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 12:34 PM

I wouldn't be so quick to target clients (i.e. buyers and sellers) as greedy. As long as the 'apparent' market value of a piece of property is on point with what it is being bought or sold for, and buyer's can afford it, it will be sold for that price.

Between 1948-1960 this city, like many others around the country, suffered the consequences of White Flight. Many just view it as whites moving to the suburbs segregating from the african-american population. What is conveniently forgotten is that african-american's that could afford to purchase property were not given the same banking rights as whites, so they could not secure mortgages. Those that purchased homes had to do it with far more cash upfront then their white counterparties.

Now, there is a constant trend of reverse White Flight in the form of gentrification. There were and are many african-american's, much like the couple we purchased our brownstone from, who own homes that were fully paid off years ago. They are profiting tremendously, and rightfully so. They HAD to raise their families in places that during that time were completely abandoned by this government and this city. No other options were available because they were not welcome any place outside of this urban jungle.

No. Buyer's and seller's in this city do not suffer from "entitlement issues", it is those that are angry because they cannot afford to buy, that do. You want to buy a house in Brooklyn? Then save your money just like everyone else. You say you'll never be able to because you don't earn enough? Then get another/additional job. Do you know why immigrant's that move to this city are able to eventually purchase homes? Because they do it by any means necessary. If they have to work 3 jobs, each, in order to save enough money, then they do it. If they have to live in a tiny, affordable, apartment with a family of 6 in order to save enough money, they do it.

But you're above that, right? There is always a sacrifice in attaining those things that we desire most. But if you work hard, you'll get it. Don't poo-poo those that don't have to, and don't judge those that choose to. No one cares to hear about your inferiority-complex issues.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 12:40 PM

to all the people that dont seem to have a problem with NYC becoming a playground for the rich.....

how can the real estate market maintain momentum without affordable starter homes that allow folks to build up equity and eventually trade up?

If you think it can, take a look at Westchester County. Yikes.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 12:43 PM

What the article is really talking about is middle-earning FAMILIES. It's all well and good to squeeze yourself and your squeeze (sorry) into an ever tinier, more distant apartment, but putting one or two kids in same apartment with a crappy school quickly becomes unbearable.

The article makes a great deal of noise about NYC/NYS income taxes, but doesn't mention the increasingly burdensome property tax belt surrounding the City. Those fleeing to the suburbs for a liveable space trade a City tax tied to income for eternally rising property tax that demands to be paid whether or not you got laid off. You get to keep the state income tax regardless. And chances are you also get a longer commute.

Does NYC want to keep these middle-earning families? Or not? Are we content to be a city of super-high earners and single, rootless strivers?

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 12:52 PM

Housing costs went up 200% or so from 2000-2007. What other commodity went up that much? Nothing. Housing costs are over inflated - just as much as the egos of half the people on this site.

Can't wait for the crash - then my little poor ass will be able to afford to buy something more than a closet.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 1:19 PM

Keep dreaming 1:19 - You will be living in a closet forever.

As for what appreciated 200% in the last 7 years: Try Oil, Gold, Silver, Euros (If you consider it a commodity), my income, a college degree.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 1:28 PM

Historically, middle-class families do not own houses in NYC. Certainly not in the upscale neighborhoods that are all that's good enough for the readers of this blog.

Historically, middle-class families do not own ANY real estate in NYC. They rent. The majority of NYers have long been renters.

The average person can't afford to buy? That's right. If you cannot afford to buy, and instead rent---probably an apartment smaller than you'd like--you are an average New Yorker, historically.

There was a brief anomaly of a couple decades after the collapse of the 60s/70s where middle-class people could afford brownstones. Do not confuse this with the normal state of NYC real estate.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 1:29 PM

you are dellusional, 1:19.

keep dreamin, though. it's good for the soul.

not for the pocketbook though.

i agree with the person who said the entitlement issue is really a major societal issue which has degraded the united states significantly over the past few decades.

it's the reason we will no longer be the world's greatest super power in another 5-7 years.

this is a country mostly filled with lazy, obese slobs who think they they deserve the moon just because they were born.

it's absolutely disgusting.

i don't see it any any other culture the way it's become here.

how many white, u.s. born people do you see starting their own businesses anymore here?

i'd say the numbers are slim.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 1:29 PM

1:29 - you are absolutely wrong.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 1:35 PM

I cannot believe some of these responses. Those of you who live or about to purchase these ridiculously overpriced condos are the idiots. You drive up the prices in NYC. ANd brooklyn forget it. You guys are so into your selves you donot relaize you are paying way too much for condos that are worth realistically $200,000 and some of you live right next door to projects. You are the ones who have made it impossible for the middle class to own or even live comfortable in nyc. It's not about being able to afford the mortgage but all the other expenses that need to be included such as your child's education, car insurance, food, clothing.
Becuase I am not sure if you noticed but the prices have gone up for everything. ANd The middle class deserve to live here just as much as those who are making $200k and more.

It's so obvious that this city will be left to the haves and have nots..

It's a shame to see that the Blogs are just becoming more and more racist.
12:40--Get a life.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 1:50 PM

I don't believe there would be a NYC any longer without immigrants.

And that has everything to do with 1:29's arguement.

Immigrants work harder, they are more likely to start a business, more likely to own property in NYC than their non-immigrant but similar imcomed american counterparts.

They are also responsible for the continued increase in population.

Americans are just coasting right now.

It's amazing to see the SAT scores slide, the incomes stagnate, the housing prices skyrocket and the minds of millions of people litterally die from laziness and entitlement.

Because what's really important is making sure we fill our mcmansions with as much crap from walmart as possible.

You know...to keep from having to actually think about anything.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 1:54 PM

Give me an F'in break. You are telling me that if you are making 100,000K a year or about $8,000 a month. You cannot afford to buy a two family brownstone in Bed-Stuy and pay about $3,000 a month towards the mortgage on your own property, most of which is tax deductable at the end of the year as mortgage interest?
No, it's not that there is a lack of housing, it is that whiners are too scared to go into traditionally rougher areas. This in itself is not surprising, but don't tell us you can't live in the city on 100K a year.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 2:02 PM

i think it's safe to say most people on here would say 1:50 is the real idiot.

his comment about it being obvious that nyc will be left to the haves and have nots just shows his ignorance.

there are probably 4 million immigrants in this city that live off and manage to buy homes on a very mediocre wage.

you know why? because they have drive.

and most of all, they want to make sure their kids have a better life than they did.

and THAT is the difference. baby boomers have been told that their children will be worse off than they will be and so far they don't seem to give a rats ass.

their only answer seems to be to throw some money at the kid for a downpayment and call it day.

what they don't realize is that they've given their children ZERO sense of work ethic or the incentive to work hard for a dollar.

why should we be surprised they the dollar is now worth so little when so many american's don't actually place much value on it at all.

americans disrespect money.

it's our worst quality.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 2:04 PM

"Housing costs went up 200% or so from 2000-2007. What other commodity went up that much? Nothing. Housing costs are over inflated - just as much as the egos of half the people on this site.

Can't wait for the crash - then my little poor ass will be able to afford to buy something more than a closet."

Bingo!!!! Ding Ding Ding!!!! Greedy mother fuckers. Don't worry the crash is here my dear friend. It will take some time for the fucktards to get it.

"Keep dreaming 1:19 - You will be living in a closet forever.

As for what appreciated 200% in the last 7 years: Try Oil, Gold, Silver, Euros (If you consider it a commodity), my income, a college degree."

This poster is a asshole. Inflation has eaten away about 30% of your purchasing power during that time. The reason commodities has risen because of the falling dollar stupid. Take your Degree and wipe your ass with it.

Real Estate and commodities are over!!!! We will have deflation. Massive fucking Deflation. We the asshole turn off the credit spiggot, all hell will break lose. No Inflation! No Asset bubbles. Skullfucked all the way!!!!!!

The What ( Fuck all of you)

Someday this war is gonna end....

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 2:10 PM

'But I am not an slouch city employee or sales associate at target either'

I guess these people are not 'entitled' to be given a chance to own something in NYC. These are the people that make up the fabric of our city. If they leave to the suburbs and work at the Target's out there. Who's going to work at the Target on Atlantic avenue? The wall streeter that bought the 800k house in crown heights because he could afford it.

You people are morans. We need more affordable housing (and not rentals) for middle class families.

Why don't you get rid of your trust funds, get a job earning 60K and see how we live. We work hard, save $, yearn for home ownership, and by the time we save enough, prices have skyrocketed so much that we can't afford it, and we have to save some more, and by the time we save some more, prices have gone up again, and we need to save more, and so on and so on.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 2:18 PM

even when prices were low, 2:18, none of you seemed to have bought anything.

you complain and complain and sit and wait.

but in nyc, you need to grow some balls and do something and stop waiting to be handed your lottery ticket to a new brownstone.

it's absurd.

as it has been mentioned, there are probably 25 neighborhoods i could name to you right now within nyc proper where you could find a 2 bedroom apartment for 300K or less.

stop whining.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 2:21 PM

That sucks 2:18 - But 60K doesnt cut it in this city - Its like making 25 or 30K somewhere else. Try renting in a very cheap area, or taking a second job, investing your money, going out less, spending less time at the bars, in the stores, waiting a few years to have kids, etc.

The point you are missing is that the trust funders are only a small % of people buying real estate in NYC. Alot of us are hardworking, smart, frugal individuals who did sacrifice and save and did what it takes to own something.

Oh, and as far as sales associates in target - they have the right to buy anyplace they like - but unfortunately for them this is not a communist society (Yet) I know all you Hillary Fans are crossing your fingers. They will not be able to afford property in NYC ever. Thats how it works - if everyone could afford anything they wanted, there would be no need to work hard, go to school, excel in a field, open a business, etc.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 2:28 PM

wrong, 2:28.

i make 60k and bought a lovely studio in park slope in 2006.

maybe doesn't cut it for a family, but 60K for a single person in nyc (which is over HALF the population here) is just fine if you have no debt and spend money wisely.

some people enjoy the simple things in life.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 2:37 PM

2:18-- In 1997 my wife and I made 60k COMBINED and bought our first 2BR apartment in Park Slope. No trust funds, no nothing.

Now, if we were in the same position today, we wouldn't be able to afford Park Slope. So we'd have to do what several of our friends who make under six figures have done lately: buy in Kensington, or Ditmas Park, or Queens. (And yes, I'm talking about couples with kids.)

In 1997 we were lucky on the timing, but not nearly as lucky as the people who bought in 1977 or 1967. But so what? We could hve spent our time bitching and dreaming of revenge on them--instead we saved and sucked it up aand bought what we could afford at the time.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 2:42 PM

'But 60K doesnt cut it in this city'

I guess most teachers, firefighters, sanitation personnel, police officers in NYC are not cutting it. They can buy a house 2-hours away, because they can afford that, and commute. And when they show up to work tired and can't do their job properly, who are you going to blame, them, because they can't afford to live in the city they serve.

'Alot of us are hardworking, smart, frugal individuals who did sacrifice and save and did what it takes to own something.'

Alot of teachers are smart - you need a masters degree to teach in NYC. Firefighters and sanitation personnel work hard and YOU on THEM to do their job.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 2:43 PM

2:43 - No they can buy in the city just not a 3 bedroom in Brooklyn heights. Or they can rent, marry into money, win the lottery, steal - Whatever. the point is they are not entitled to live anywhere they want, for any price, I dont care what your job is, the fact you cant afford a big house in prime neighborhoods is not a "Problem" that needs to be solved. It is the free market, and ugly as it may seem, thank it is the way it is.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 3:00 PM

AMEN-AMEN & AMEN 12:40. My family was one of those families who struggled to get a mortgage back in the 70's from racist banks. The owner(the local hardware store operator) had to hold the mortgage and my father made his payments at the hardware store every month. My first job was at the hardware store and the neighborhood was neglected,dark and its housing crumbling. We struggled for years with our house with help from the local hardware store. The owner managed to purchased a few houses from other struggling owners as they fled to the suburbs from crime,drugs, etc. My father was a city employee, so we had to stick it out. Well, that house was a five story brownstone directly across from Fort Greene Park. And it was a wonder watching people at the open house gazing at a old pic of my dad in front of the house 20yrs. ago. The old jewish man who gave me my first job and my dad a home managed to own 8 properties in the area. Both men are fishing down in Florida.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 3:04 PM

Its always impressive to see the number of strongly held opinions that show up on this blog that have no basis in reality. Who needs facts when they get in the way? I'll just suggest one article to cover some basic facts.

In a City Known for Its Renters, a Record Number Now Own Their Homes http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/27/nyregion/27owners.html

While the article does cover the increasing cost of housing in the city, its most striking observations are

In the 1890 census, only about 6 percent of New York City residents reported owning a home. In 1900, even after the consolidated city absorbed residential tracts in Brooklyn and Queens, the overall homeownership rate was just 12 percent.

By 1950, with new housing being built for returning military veterans, the share of owners topped 19 percent. With the exception of the 1970s, when the city flirted with bankruptcy, the proportion has been inching up ever since.

In 1990, 28.7 percent of New Yorkers owned their homes, according to the census figures. In 2000, 30.2 percent did, and five years later, according to the analysis of the Census Bureau’s 2005 American Community Survey, 33.2 percent were homeowners.

and

The increases spanned all major racial and ethnic groups in the city, and the steepest jumps occurred in some of the poorest neighborhoods: the South Bronx, Central Harlem, the Lower East Side, Washington Heights and Brownsville, Brooklyn. In each of those, the proportion of property owners had risen by more than 70 percent since 1990. In the South Bronx, for example, the Census Bureau found nearly 3,600 homeowners in 2005, up from 1,600 in 1990. Only one neighborhood, Bushwick, Brooklyn, registered a decline.

Home ownership in NYC has never been higher in modern times though most people who live in NY don't own. People of limited means continue to buy. So for all of you who say that no one can afford to buy in NYC, try to figure out what you're doing wrong. Or may be you're just finding an excuse for not committing for fear of something else.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 3:13 PM

I love this city. This is the center of the Universe Of course it is going to cost alot. Go out of the city into let's say Florida or maybe Utah what kind of jobs do you think they have? Starbucks and Burger king that's it.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 3:23 PM

'Or may be you're just finding an excuse for not committing for fear of something else.'

3:13- With the way the economy is, The Middle class have a fear of job loss. Who gets hurt the most during a recession, the middle class.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 3:28 PM

2:43 - No they can buy in the city just not a 3 bedroom in Brooklyn heights. Or they can rent, marry into money, win the lottery, steal - Whatever. the point is they are not entitled to live anywhere they want, for any price, I dont care what your job is, the fact you cant afford a big house in prime neighborhoods is not a "Problem" that needs to be solved. It is the free market, and ugly as it may seem, thank it is the way it is.

3:00 - You are absurd. 'Marry into Money', ''Win the lottery', 'Steal' to get more money. How unrealistc is this. Maybe that's how you got your money, but I'd like to believe that middle class new yorkers are hard working individuals, and won't stoop to your levels of acquiring money.

'I dont care what your job is, the fact you cant afford a big house in prime neighborhoods is not a "Problem" that needs to be solved'

How about affording a modest home in a prime neighborhood.

My friend teaches in a private school in Park Slope (tution over 20K), her salary 60K (for a teacher that is considered excellent), she feels very fortunate to make that much. She lives 45 minutes away, because she can't afford to leave closer. She commutes, arrives to work tired, irrated, etc. She would love to live closer so she can spend more time at the school, be a part of the community, etc.

Next time you drop your kid off at the school and look at the teacher that gives your kid an education that will hopefully make them rich. You tell that teacher to 'marry into money, or play lotto, or steal, maybe the teacher can steal your kids lunch money.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 3:42 PM

if your teacher friend can't afford a 1-2 bedroom in kensington or ditmas (150-250K) on her 60K a year salary, she's doin too many drugs.

you are asinine for saying someone on her salary needs to live 45 mins away from park slope.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 3:50 PM

3:42--

If a teacher earning 60K deserves to be able to afford "a modest home in a prime neighborhood," who should have to live in less-than-prime neighborhoods? As long as you're handing down moral judgments, do please tell us who you're comfortable consigning there. How about a single mom making 60K as an executive assistant for a pharmaceutical company? Is her job too evil?

Or maybe we should *all* get to live in prime neighborhoods! Every one of us! Yay! Everyone will be above average!

For all the whining around here, it is actually more possible for lower-paid people to live in or near 'prime' neighborhoods than in most other American cities--because of the diversity of housing stock and apartment sizes--as long as they will compromise on space. You show me a schoolteacher in L.A. who can afford to live in Bel Air or Brentwood.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 3:52 PM

The commute from Kensington or Ditmas to Park Slope would be propably be 45 minutes Door to Door.

There are no trains that go directly. Depending where the school is, she might have to take the bus.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 3:57 PM

3:45 - So retarded you are, I mean seriously it was obvious an exagerration for someone to 'Marry into Money" or Steal - Your pathetic self-righteous response tells us everything we need to know about you.

Your friend lives 45 minutes away and is tired and irritable?

1 - 3:50 is right, making 60K and living 45 min away is sad.

2 - The average commute in NYC is nearly an hour, so spare us the sob story.

3 - She works until 2 or 3 the latest and has 3+ months off and every single holiday, recess, winter break, etc., off.

Typical hippie-wannabe, liberal New Yorker response.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 4:00 PM

OMG - This post is getting ridulious. Now someone is comparing Park Slope to Bel Air

Park Slope = Diverse housing stock, single and multi family homes, rentals, condos, co-ops. People are living on top of each other.

Bel-Air - Single family homes that are spread out.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 4:03 PM

4:03 - Relax, I think they are just comparing the "Concept" of beleiving you should be entitled to live in the same neighborhood you work, regardless of how expensive.

I dont think they meant Park Slope is as nice or expensive as Bel Aire.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 4:14 PM

I think Park Slope is far nicer than Bel Air. I grew up there. But that's neither here nor there.

And actually most brownstones in PS are about right on target price-wise with most homes in Bel Air.

Sure there is the occasional 20 million baby out there, but most are 1.5 - 4 million-ish.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 4:27 PM

"The commute from Kensington or Ditmas to Park Slope would be propably be 45 minutes Door to Door.

There are no trains that go directly. Depending where the school is, she might have to take the bus."

ummm...kensington is one stop on the F train past park slope. are you really that ignorant?

i could walk to kensington or ditmas from my park slope home in less than 45 mins.

i commute to the upper upper west side and it takes 45 minutes.

you have no idea what you're talking about.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 4:29 PM

i wouldn't live in paris if you paid me.

nyc is nothing like paris.

nyc is much more alive.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 5:26 PM

Paris Deux (Paris II)? I got a law degree from that place. NYC is no Paris!

They're both pretty cool places, I'm sure everyine agrees. I think BrooklynCouch was simply itching to lett us all know he/she earned a law degree. In Paris.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 5:35 PM

We have $250K HHI, minimal debt and about $150K in the bank. We still can't afford to buy in Park Slope (we rent there now and we're committed to staying in the nabe.) I'm not talking a brownstone, or even half a brownstone, I'm talking a real two bedroom coop in the right school district. And as far as sense of entitlement goes, I totally agree with the article. Our friends all own, and they want their kids to have their own rooms (our kids share and will probably share their whole lives) washer/dryers in the apts, all own cars, etc. What I find most shocking is how they all bought lovely, perfectly livable places that needed minor touch ups that could be done over time, but instead they all renovated before moving in. When did everyone get so rich and where was I when they were handing out the money? It's all very depressing.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 5:54 PM

5:54--there is not one "right school district" in Park Slope. There are several good schools, and one that everyone parrots as the "best," mainly because the richest families send their kids there. There's your sense of entitlement right there.

Save some money, buy in another school zone, and put your $250K income (and time) toward supporting the PTA.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 5:59 PM

"We have $250K HHI, minimal debt and about $150K in the bank. We still can't afford to buy in Park Slope (we rent there now and we're committed to staying in the nabe.) I'm not talking a brownstone, or even half a brownstone, I'm talking a real two bedroom coop in the right school district."

Talk about a sense of entitlement! Wait, let me get out my violin!

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 6:05 PM

5:54
get the hell out of park slope (seriously). it's not for you. if these people bug you now, it'll just get worse. it's not the be all end all of hoods. i've lived all over manhattan and brooklyn including PS for a while.

move to the lorimer or graham ave. L stop areas in williamsburg - was italian, now more gentrified. amazing school there: PS132. great family community. you can definitely buy a nice place. check out the yahoo group: brooklynbabyhui. see how wonderful the family community is in williamsburg. you'll make tons of friends and you will not miss park slope for a minute. one trip down Union to shop at Sunac and then eat at Dumont should seal the deal. if not then check out cheeks for bakery or fette seu for barbecue on metropolitan. (after you take the kids to mccarran park - great new running track and not impossibly crowded playground).

plus, you'll shave so much time off your commute that you'll really have to ask yourself what you were doing wasting all your time commuting for - a rental??

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 7:14 PM

the area of williamsburg off the lorimer and graham stops are not very pretty, to say the least.

talking up maccarren park?

um....you are REALLY comparng that dustbowl of a b-level university looking quad to prospect park?

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 7:20 PM

can we stop misusing the words "trust fund"
i know a few trust funders, and they are not in brooklyn. they are really really rich. stop worrying about the super rich. how does that help you?

i own a 1,1500,000.00 dollar condo (price + upgrades), and my husband and i only will make like 175 ish this year probably. got it by buying and selling and by not wasting my money in rent. because we put down a fair amount and did a ton of looking, we have only a $4250 monthly payment - mortgage, cc's and taxes, and with our interest deduction, it's effectively closer to like $3300. also, i've been told that even in this market i could get a minimum of 1,350,000.00 and probably more like 1,450,000.00 even though we've only been in for a year.

i looked for nabes that i could enjoy immediately, but that had amazing value (offered good deals for psf). i have my quirks about what i would not compromise on, and i have never needed to.

i also did a lot of research about areas and walked and walked them.

if you make 100Kish, you can buy. stop complaining and get off your ass.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 7:25 PM

i agree with you, 7:25.

anyone who makes over 100k in this city and says they can't afford ANYTHING needs to look in a different neighborhood or compromise on something else...

to simply say there is no place for them in nyc anymore completely and totally makes this whole entitlement issue a reality.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 7:33 PM

3:50 tell your friend who teaches at 321 that I rent large one bedroom apartments (650sq ft) in a north prime slope brownstone for around 1450 per month. I am sure she can afford 321 district on 60k per year. I will actually have an apt available soon (does not happen often).

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 8:01 PM

berkeley place, 8:01?

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 8:14 PM

LOSERS!!!!!

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 9:31 PM

I have good friends who together make about $225K as a married couple. They have a rent-stabilized 1-BR in Manhattan. They are constantly whining about how expensive child care is, and how they can't afford to buy in NYC, etc. As someone who makes in the mid-60s, I have never understood how they could complain so much when clearly they have lots of options in terms of buying. It's ugly.

Posted by: guest at January 7, 2008 11:57 PM

By the way, the city is always bending over backwards for the middle class to get into homeownership. Teacher next door programs, Officer next door programs, low income housing mandates with many of the new high end Manhattan condos, sliding scale housing opportunities, housing lottery opportunities, the list goes on and on.
Face facts, whiners making 100k a year say they can't make it in the city because they can't buy a Gramercy Park brownstone at their income level. boo hoo. Leave it to a recent immigrant from Bangladesh who works hard, saves money with his brother in law and goes in on a two family brownstone in an area of Brooklyn that isn't Park Slope. Then these same whiner types will be here posting from mommy's basement once again saying that they are being squeezed out. boo hoo hoo.

Posted by: guest at January 8, 2008 12:02 AM

only a $4250 monthly payment - mortgage, cc's and taxes, and with our interest deduction, it's effectively closer to like $3300. also, i've been told that even in this market i could get a minimum of 1,350,000.00 and probably more like 1,450,000.00 even though we've only been in for a year.

Hey sweetie, How much your place wold rent for??!!!! I bet 2000.00 per month. Remember about the Tax deduction, you have to earn income. I know you are in the suck for 1500 per month.

I bet no one know why they get a refund. The Government uses your money interest free.

"i could get a minimum of 1,350,000.00 and probably more like 1,450,000.00 even though we've only been in for a year."

See people, this is fucking crack smoke speaking. You live in a place for 2 years and it's worth 300k more, yeah right!

Deflation is coming assholes, that's right!!! Remember how it went up. Well, it's going down the same way but, faster.

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: guest at January 8, 2008 12:45 AM

^^^ true, true, true.

Posted by: guest at January 8, 2008 1:07 AM