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January 11, 2008
Latest BBP Brouhaha: A Supermarket in the Park
The most recent controversy over Brooklyn Bridge Park has to do with plans to put a grocery store in the base of the public-private development's anchoring condo, One Brooklyn Bridge Park, according to an article in this week's Brooklyn Paper. Judy Stanton, the executive director of the Brooklyn Heights Association, says it's "not the most complimentary business for the park," while Ken Baer, chair of the Atlantic Chapter of the Sierra Club, argues that "all the land within the park should be devoted to recreational space." One Brooklyn Bridge Park's developer says he wants to put a (what else?) high-end market into the building as well as two restaurants and smaller shops. The taxes collected from the condo's retail would help cover the park's maintenance costs. Do you like the idea of a high-end market here?
Supermarket Could Come to 'Park' [Brooklyn Paper] GMAP
Amidst Lingering Controversy, BBP Construction to Begin [Brownstoner]
Brooklyn Bridge Park Meeting: The Morning After [Brownstoner]
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Comments
Who except building residents would actually go to the market? Do they expect people to carry their groceries up the steep hill on Joralemon, especially when there will be a Trader Joes nearby?
Posted by: tscola at January 11, 2008 10:14 AM
A market by a park (i.e lots of pedestrians, kids, strollers, dogs) that will be accessible only by car? Sounds like a great idea!
Posted by: guest at January 11, 2008 10:14 AM
just another elitist and clueless (Ken Baer's) choice of what to build near BBP. ex: a recreational center in lieu of accessible supermarket and high end at that. like there's not enough space to stroll near the promenade. what planet is the sierra club on? more residents prefer food amenities than a park.
Posted by: guest at January 11, 2008 10:17 AM
this is a terrible idea -- and no matter how much a Whole Foods rumor will help sales, it's never going to happen. Why would any major market want to be where no one but residents can get to them?
Posted by: guest at January 11, 2008 10:20 AM
All I can think of is Whole Foods Gowanus needing a place to relocate. See thread below. Hmmmmmnnnnn...
Posted by: guest at January 11, 2008 10:21 AM
Sheep's meadow in Central Park would be a good place for a supermarket too. Maybe an Ikea as well.
By defination it's not a park if it's got stores and high risies in it.
Posted by: Boerum Hill at January 11, 2008 10:23 AM
"Do you like the idea of a high-end market here?"
Yes. I live three blocks from here and welcome it.
Posted by: guest at January 11, 2008 10:27 AM
Judy Stanton speaks only for herself and usually forms a committee of one on such things. Her thoughts and comments when delivered off the cuff are usually remarkably unsophisticated and do not reflect the diverse community she supposedly represents.
As a Brooklyn Heights resident I would be THRILLED to see a supermarket at the bottom of Joralemon Street.
Posted by: guest at January 11, 2008 10:44 AM
Picnic!
Posted by: guest at January 11, 2008 10:44 AM
Whether or not they have parking for shoppers (and I cant imagine they could survive on building tenants and walk-ins alone, A market will bring trucks, big trucks, just look at the backside of any supermarket.
Posted by: HDL at January 11, 2008 10:46 AM
The picnic comment is spot on. If there is a market that has a large amount of prepared foods then this is a useful amenity for all park goers. Much better than the crap at concessions in city parks.
Posted by: guest at January 11, 2008 11:00 AM
A market the size of a Garden of Eden, Dean and Deluca or D’agostinos would work here. It would not really compete with a Trader Joe’s they are not that close. It would serve people in the new building as well as the neighborhood as it is a long walk uphill to the food stores on Montague or Atlantic.
“A market by a park (i.e lots of pedestrians, kids, strollers, dogs) that will be accessible only by car?”
Most likely after the park is built there will be public transportation routes created such as shuttle buses or a bus route extention.
Posted by: alilove at January 11, 2008 11:01 AM
#10:44am You are spot on. She is not an elected official yet she acts as if she is!
Posted by: guest at January 11, 2008 11:04 AM
I for one would rather see the area down there fully developed for residential use (we need the housing and the taxbase). The development would include a publicly accessible waterfront walk (like the one in Batery Park City). The buildings would dampen the noise from the BQE and the walk along the river from Joralemon to Fulton Ferry would be leafy and very pleasant. And there would be no public park to fund and maintain. We are spending too mauch money on these sorts of things lately. They will bankrupt the State and the City.
Private sector solutions are always better.
Forget the stupid park. sell off the land to a good developer with an easement along the waater. Use the money for the new park on Governor's Island (another boondoggle). Get private money involved so something can actually happen down there other than usual NY government agency bullshit.
Posted by: guest at January 11, 2008 11:04 AM
I like Judy Stanton and agree a high-end grocery store is a bad idea. They'd never get a tenant like that anyway. They'll get a deli like at Battery Park City... which will appeal to noone, but will be a place to grab a bottle of water
Posted by: guest at January 11, 2008 11:13 AM
11:13 Is that you Judy? Are you posing as someone else and self congratulating yourself? You know how the old saying goes, "Self praise stinks!"
Posted by: guest at January 11, 2008 11:17 AM
Judy Stinkton is that her name?
Posted by: guest at January 11, 2008 11:39 AM
no, I'm not Judy Stanton. Do you really think it's impossible for a person to have an opinion that is not your own?
I am a member of the BHA? Are you? It's about $40 a year. Can you swing that? Come to a meeting and express an opinion. Most members are pretty happy with the job she does (according to the survey)
Posted by: guest at January 11, 2008 12:03 PM
This sort of setup seems to work just fine for the Fairway in Red Hook. The Fairway isn't high end, but I think any decent grocer would get a lot of traction in this location.
I, for one, would walk a few extra blocks (and a hill) to not have to go to Key Foods on Atlantic.
Posted by: guest at January 11, 2008 12:03 PM
I recently viewed an apartment at One Brooklyn Bridge Park. The sales agent (more than once) mentioned the developer's intention to have both a grocery store and restaurants in the first floor retail spaces.
On the way down there, I noticed that it's a long, walk- far from ANY businesses, not even a bodega, to get to the building. Since the downhill slope of Joralemon is so empty, it seems a grocery or food source of some kind is necessary for the future residents of One BBP.
For those interested, the sales office has a giant, lovely plan of the Park as it should look in about 10 years. That plan could answer a lot of questions in this thread. Perhaps its online somewhere?
Posted by: guest at January 11, 2008 12:20 PM
In order for a park to be sustainable (in these modern times) it has to have a revenue stream and a reason for people to want to go. There is little doubt that the Brooklyn Bridge Park is well located and will probably be popular BUT it will need amenities. A store like Garden of Eden or Dean and DeLuca would be a very practical addition for both the residents and users of the park. I can think of a lot worse things they could put there (like a liquor store or yet another Rite Aid).
Posted by: duckwalk at January 11, 2008 12:38 PM
12:20,
Oh yes, it's such a long walk down that incredibly lenghty Joralemon Street boulevard. Brooklyn Heights is so out of the way isn't it?
It is true one would have to walk some distance to find a bodega, which are few and far between in the Heights. One would need to walk all the way to Fort Greene.
Posted by: guest at January 11, 2008 12:46 PM
I live in Brooklyn Heights and according to some estimates; the population of the neighborhood is around 25k and of that, there are something like 10k rent stabilized/rent controlled tenants and around 5k Jehovah Witness's that don't really contribute to the local neighborhoods economy like the rest of the market rate people and owners. So, in effect, the neighborhoods population is around 10k, spread out.
That's one of many reason why BH is so dead. Yes, majority of the residents are very old. Judy cripples new business and developments. And stores are far few to be convenient. And, no, I'm not going to pay, however little, when I am already voting for my local representation. Judy and the BHA can screw themselves on the nearest lamp post.
Posted by: guest at January 11, 2008 12:55 PM
...historically accurate lamp post.
Posted by: guest at January 11, 2008 1:15 PM
these are dreams of the brokers - those restaurants will only get business on warm weekends and a grocery store is too far away for walking and Fairway already has the lead on that. It will not happen.
Posted by: guest at January 11, 2008 1:21 PM
1:21
I live a few blocks from here and it is a lot more convenient to go here than to the Key Foods & Garden of Eden on Montague or the Key Foods on Atlantic. Just because it is far from your particular house and the little hill is too much of an issue for you, don't presume you know what's best for the rest of the area residents that live close to here.
Posted by: guest at January 11, 2008 1:34 PM
You said a 'high-end market' not supermarket.
It doesn't have to be size of a Pathmark or Fairway. And probably wouldn't be because I don't think there is much free parking around there. But between people in that section of BHeights, people in this building and ones from Cobble Hill west of BQE - could support something.
Posted by: guest at January 11, 2008 1:49 PM
One BBP (aka 360 Furman) is a private sector development project. So even if nothing else happens down there in our lifetimes due to the do-nothing public agenices, that building will soon be open for business. I think a food market there is a must, as is a liquor store, maybe a bar and grille with views of the marina. Nice.
People have to be so unimaginative to think that everything will be awful and that nothing will work. Even the old farts on Joralemon Sttreet will come to like it in the end. Something beats nothing and what is there now is a lot of nothing.
Posted by: guest at January 11, 2008 2:26 PM
1:34 - this is 1:21 here. Your comments are apprropriate for the 100 people that live in your area. Grocery stores work best when they are surrounded by people, not by a park and water. Think about it. You need a deli so you can take your fat ass to you presumptive fool.
Posted by: guest at January 11, 2008 3:43 PM
3:34 great to hear great ideas like yours. now my partners and I will open a nice donut place, a watering hole, bistro or a bowling alley on Furman. there's not much going in your neck of the woods, but develop it can be and more people will come and enjoy BH. prime example is the River's Cafe, it's a good thing.
Posted by: guest at January 11, 2008 4:01 PM
I have a feeling 3:43 doesn't get the "vision thing".
Anything down there will do great, particualry a food market for those "fat asses" who buy and eat food.
There really must be more than 100 of us.
Posted by: guest at January 11, 2008 4:19 PM
Me and 3 of my relatives went to look at the condos at BBP and although we had problems with the construction or lack of quality and issues with the window placements we were completely turned off by the idea of having a supermarket in the building. After living in a building in Manhattan for many years with a supermarket on the ground floor I will never subject myself to the horrors of living with a situation like that. The smells, the garbage, the mice!! Even the broker mentioning that this was a possibility they lost out on about $5,000,000 worth of sales. They should educate their sales people a little better as well as an agent with developers group was very lackluster in their information of the sales process. The onsite person was much better.
Posted by: guest at January 11, 2008 4:47 PM
@3:34 PM
You are an idiot! We're all laughing at you! Thanks for the chuckle, you really are a douchebag! 100 people haha! Fat asses because people need a grocery store haha! Let us guess, is that you Judy? As Ed Norton once said, "The first one through this door gets a...gets a lead salad!"
Posted by: guest at January 11, 2008 4:47 PM
4:47 the last laugh will be on you coz when i get down 181 lbs, I'll push you down the promenade into the river with my butt. And my name isn't Judy.
Posted by: guest at January 11, 2008 5:17 PM
Looks like Judy's panties are bunched up! I thought I told you to screw the nearest lamp post! Who told you to leave! Get back you wanna be tramp before I Tony Danza your ass!
Posted by: guest at January 11, 2008 5:58 PM
do you ever watch how good looking they look after they leave 'the biggest loser' tv show? you wish, asstard.
Posted by: guest at January 11, 2008 6:18 PM
"...coz when i get down 181 lbs..."
You're a fat-ass? And lazy to boot. You're in dire need of walking up and down that little hill lard ass. Pray for your reward with a tub of ice-cream at the end of your journey. Loser.
Posted by: guest at January 11, 2008 6:35 PM
A big store on the bottom floor of 1BBP will turn Joralemon St into a highway, unless the street is closed to all but emergency traffic as it meets Furman. (This has been promised for 20 years, but even the retractable bollards solution seems to be evaporating now.) The park DOES/WILL need amenities, but any trucks, driving customers, etc, should come in via the Atlantic Avenue entrance. So should the cars of 1 BBP residents.
Shoppers/residents on foot can walk up and down Joralemon, or take the B63/B61 bus on Atlantic, two blocks south.
If there were more than 2 real entrances to the park between Atlantic Ave and Old Fulton Street, this would less of an issue. I live not on Joralemon but nearby, and am not looking forward to a having a freeway around the block. More people walking in the area, fine -- it's quiet there.
Contrary to some earlier blogs, lower Joralemon isn't an empty wasteland, it's a great neighborhood full of people, many of them young. None are excessively gaseous, as far as I can tell. People know their neighbors, and plant beautiful gardens for all to see as they walk by. The visitor to 1 BBP who raved about the model might also want to know that 2 additional new apartment buildings are planned directly south of 1 BBP; was that shown on the lovely model, or did the architects just paint in the usual mysterious gray squares?
Posted by: bklyn20 at January 11, 2008 7:10 PM
That is, 1 real entrance for people and cars between Atlantic and Old Fulton -- Joralemon Street. The pedestrian bridge at Middagh Street will be built when? 2020?
Posted by: bklyn20 at January 11, 2008 7:17 PM
Joralemon Street is a public street. It is not the private property of people who live on Joralemon Street. Because it is a public street, private citizens have no right to expect that only certain trafffic or certain people are allowed to use it. If you want to live on a private street, move in the city as well as many private, gated communities in the suburbs. Joralemon Street is not one of them and the idea that somehow people who buy and visit One BBP will be interlopers using the street that somehow is not meant for them is just plain demented. Demented verging on brain dead. What part of "public street" do the folks in the area find so difficult to understand?
Posted by: guest at January 11, 2008 7:33 PM
my 7:33 posting was mangled for some reason.
My point was that unlike certain communities where the streets are private and subject to closure by the stakehholders, Joralemon St is a public street. Something that some of the residents forget. Anyone is allowed to use Joralemon St any time they like. It is not a private enclave.
Posted by: guest at January 11, 2008 7:51 PM
Of course it's a public street. It is also a narrow public street with paving stones over a major subway line. 500+ additional residents, as well as park visitors and grocery store customers, driving down on a daily basis is unfeasible in even a practical sense. Joralemon is the same size as Cranberry Street, Willow Street, etc. I am sure none of them are feasible high-volume thoroughfares either. The fact that blocking off the street was acknowledged at earlier BBPark meetings, even after housing was added, proves the point. Even everyone's "favorite" person, former BBPDC Wendy Leventer, told a public meeting in the Brooklyn Polytech auditorium in Winter 2005 that it would be closed to through traffic, as did the Van Valkenburgh park planners at "open houses" on the park plan in 2005 or 2006. This is not something the neighborhood thought up to create a gated community -- it is an appropriate measure for a narrow street in an historic district.
Posted by: bklyn20 at January 11, 2008 8:07 PM
The fire department, police department, and EMS will never agree to close off Joralemon St. It is an important connector to Furman. Cobblestone or not, it is in a traffic sense, vital. Wendy Leventer would have agreed to close off the Brooklyn Bridge for all it meant. Forget it guys, Joralemon is a major artery disguised as a mews.
Posted by: guest at January 11, 2008 8:19 PM
Joralemon would not be closed to fire trucks, police cars or the Mayor's limo. Retractable bollards would be used -- they are on Wall Street where it meets Broadway, in front of the White House, and other areas in cities around the US. If they work on Wall Street, why not here?
This was proposed to me by a Michael Van Valkenurgh employee (the park's landscape architect) 2 or 3 years ago. Sensors on firetrucks, EMT vehicles, etc. signal the bollards to recede into the street. It works on Wall Street -- I have seen it myself, and quizzed people who are down there more than I am.
Why not create a mid-park connection to BBP with easy mass transit access? Or reliable, regularly scheduled shuttle buses that go down Furman and bring people to the buildings, the park and its amenities? Furman may be 2-way in a few years, making this solution all the more workable. we don't need an artery if circulation improves elswhere in the area. (But enough with the medical metaphors.) Joralemon can and should be closed to non-emergency traffic at Furman Street.
Posted by: bklyn20 at January 11, 2008 8:36 PM
Those retractable bollards are problematic.
You are not suggesting that we turn joralemon into an armed DMZ like Wall and Broadway are you? I mean, there it is done because of the Stock Exchange and the fear of terrorism. Armed police are on duty 24/7 to lower the bollards for police or CEO's.
Will there be 24/7 guards at Joralemon? don't be ridiculous! The bollards tend to get stuck in icy weather and tend to get stuck in very hot weather. How many EMS patients will die unable to get to LICH on time because of a faulty bollard?
Joralemon is an important street in an important past of an important city. It is not a cul-de-sac in Dogpatch, USA.
Posted by: guest at January 11, 2008 9:01 PM
I do not think that the movers and shakers that buy in One BBP will allow their street to be cut off right in front of their buildings because the near-penniless old fartdom of joralemon st. does not wish to hear their cars go by.
What are house owners near the bottom of the street going to do? Back up uphill to Columbia Place?
The idea is just too impractical. Only Wendy L. would have embraced it publicly wih a straight face. Amazing that she was never indicted.
Posted by: guest at January 11, 2008 9:10 PM
There won't be guards at Joralemon, as far as I've heard. (Although there are plenty of them in the BBP plan. They used to be armed -- not sure if the guns are out or in now.)
No, Joralemon is not a dogpatch cul-de-sac. It is not even a non-dogpatch cul-de-sac. It is important but also SMALL and NARROW. A proper park plan would have appropriate access points; Central Park has car entrances every 10 or so blocks, as does Prospect Park. Pedestrian access is even better.
If this is a "World-Class Park" it needs a world-class transportation plan. Perhaps Brooklyn Bridge Park is actually a gated community off a cul-de-sac off of an important street in an important part of an important city that won't plan realistic transporation for all of it very important inhabitants?
Posted by: bklyn20 at January 11, 2008 9:18 PM
Don't kid yourself, this isn't going to be a world class park, it's going to be a dinky, little, noisy park that nobody will go to even if it ever gets built, which is a big if.
I don't think you need to compare it to Central Park or Prospect Park, two of the greatest American Romatic Landscapes of the 19th Century. That would make Joralemon Street comparable to Propect Park West or Central Park West, which it isn't.
Posted by: guest at January 11, 2008 9:29 PM
It's amazing that the rest of BH streets will be rearranged or rerouted for the sake of one building and its new BBP residents. Are they doing us a favor?
Posted by: guest at January 12, 2008 7:58 AM
I don't know that anything is being rerouted except for the possibility of a 2-way Furman and the hope of closing off Joralemon at Furman. Joralemon was to be closed just for the park' expected traffic -- the 500+ people in 1 BBP, not to mention the 700 or so people in the other 2 buildings near Atlantic Ave, are just more reason to consider the impact of the park and its residents on the surrounding neighborhoods. A great park, rather than a luxury housing development with a little green around the edges, would be worth it.. 1BBP isn't going anywhere, but the rest of the housing? The costs in many parts of the plan are so inflated that they may not be necessary. And the marina they didn't mention at the latest "public meeting?" It gives no revenue to the park and will be run by a private operator. Why not a permanent floating pool? Whatever we get in the end, Joralemon should be closed at Furman. Other entrances and access points are necessary.. I just pray we actually get a park when all is said and done.
Posted by: bklyn20 at January 12, 2008 10:09 AM
12:55. Please cite your sources. Is it true that 10K out of 25K in Brooklyn Heights are Rent Stabilized / Rent Controlled? That seems exaggerated.
Posted by: guest at January 12, 2008 10:22 AM
Truth be told, the BH Assoc and the developers like 1BBP are not concerned about the rent stabilized dwellers. For all they care, you can screw yourselves. In short, it's about their well being and bottom $$$ line. To each his own heretofore.
Posted by: guest at January 12, 2008 10:58 AM
In addition, bait and switch is more like it. Hear good things now until shit happens.
Posted by: guest at January 12, 2008 11:00 AM
bklyn20, the BBPDC and its consultants don't make the decision about whether or not traffic will be limited on Joralemon Street; DOT does. And the last time I asked, which was before the new commissioner came on the job, the agency opposed the idea. Check the General Project Plan; all it says is that BBPDC will request that traffic be limited on the street.
Posted by: g man at January 12, 2008 12:02 PM
Once again, if you can't afford your rent then move to an apartment that you can. God damn, not too difficult.
Posted by: guest at January 12, 2008 1:26 PM
Gman et al, I know that the BBP Dev Corp is not the final "determiner" of transportation issues like Joralemon St. Nonetheless, when the BBPDC head says something. it should have some credence. Experience shows that is not the case. We'll see how Regina Meyer does. My pointwas more that Joralemon St residents (neither gaseoues nor penniless, as a general rule) did not come up with the idea in a sudden fit of xenophobia. At a CB2 Transportation mtg this fall, Chris Hrones of the DOT said they would consider closing the street when the park is complete (2012, I believe he said) or at an earlier appropriate time. The DOT can certainly be in the wrong. Area residents have an uphill battle on this downhill street.
Posted by: bklyn20 at January 12, 2008 9:09 PM
Gman et al, I know that the BBP Dev Corp is not the final "determiner" of transportation issues like Joralemon St. Nonetheless, when the BBPDC head says something. it should have some credence. Experience shows that is not the case. We'll see how Regina Meyer does. My pointwas more that Joralemon St residents (neither gaseoues nor penniless, as a general rule) did not come up with the idea in a sudden fit of xenophobia. At a CB2 Transportation mtg this fall, Chris Hrones of the DOT said they would consider closing the street when the park is complete (2012, I believe he said) or at an earlier appropriate time. The DOT can certainly be in the wrong. Area residents have an uphill battle on this downhill street.
Posted by: bklyn20 at January 12, 2008 9:10 PM
I think we are losing the fact that this was supposed to be a PARK, not a residential development. Do we want our public parks to include big box stores or even little ones? Would Central Park or Prospect Park be better off if it had a Costco inside it? Or perhaps an Armani outlet? Let's get back to the fact that this was supposed to be a park, with a pool, ice rink and year round field house. And private housing inside of parks is simply a bad idea. Let's not give our public lands away to the lowest real estate bidder. Let's build a park with recreational features, a few restaurants, and lots of bridges into it, all along its length - so all people can come to be close to the water, appreciate our great bridge and have some fun. Let's pay for it with philanthropy (like the Central Park Conservancy does) plus money from concessions (food and drink), parking fees, the hotel, Empire Stores and, oh, our tax dollars! Tax the residents who live nearby, too, if you don't want the city or state to support parks any longer, but let's get back to PARK!
Posted by: guest at January 13, 2008 9:04 AM
It's still a park.
Posted by: guest at January 13, 2008 10:11 AM
9:04, I agree with your basic premise. Since 360 Furman (OOPS) will not be demolished by eminent domain anytime soon, I simply want to mitigate its effect on the surrounding neighborhoods. The same goes for whatever goes in on the first floor. The other residential bldgs in the plan won't be necessary if the bloated budget were properly revised--how many Priuses are we at these days? Are they still counting the water as part of the 80+ acreage figure to decrease the cost per acre? (My secret theory is that the need the $ to buy 1,000 cans of Aquanet hairspray per month to properly style the East River tides. Wait --maybe thr,illions for wave attenuators will take care of that.) If only the land acres are used in calculations, it's only a 60-odd acre park. Therfore less $$ needed to maintain the park. If the marina area were instead something to make money for the park, and other appropriate amenities were used to generate funds rather than serve the needs of only the residents, enough $$ could be generated to support a park and not another Battery Park City. As a last thought, perhaps the Conservancy should stop paying $ 100,000+++ for consultants whose main area of expertise is museums and galleries and not parks for all the people of Brooklyn and New York.
Posted by: bklyn20 at January 13, 2008 10:21 AM
park good. condos bad. let us take back park. period.
Posted by: guest at January 13, 2008 11:07 AM
10:11,You think it is a park with condos inside it? I've got a bridge you can buy, too. Get real.
Posted by: guest at January 13, 2008 11:11 AM
11:11AM is an old has-been nimby. Get some real life friends instead of posting your bullshit fud.
Posted by: guest at January 13, 2008 3:38 PM
11:11 is a rent controlled loser. Can't pay their on way. I hope you die already along with your antiquated beliefs. Fuck-off loser.
Posted by: guest at January 13, 2008 4:00 PM
park concessions for public refreshment are found in every park in the city including the Central Park. at least, a jamba juice, a starbucks or, well, a donut place is fine by me.
Posted by: guest at January 13, 2008 8:16 PM
Yeah, I never did understand these people that have this sense of entitlement to live where ever they want to without having to pay for it. They don't pay taxes or hardly any. They then bitch about a ten dollar increase in rent and will not pay. Their apartments are packed with every imaginable crap for the last 30 years, fire hazard, they're rude, angry, bitter, & stupid to boot.
I hope the BHA & Judy & all the nimby asstards to get by a car.
Posted by: guest at January 13, 2008 11:30 PM
Park good, 40+ year old nimby has-beens bad. There is one group of people from BH I would not mind to see be gone, the irrational nimby zealots. Please bring the crime this way. Maybe a stray bullet will land on them. No tears from. God knows, these asstards have severly impacted the lives of many, many, many people trying to make a living here.
Posted by: guest at January 13, 2008 11:36 PM
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