House of the Day: 466 5th Street

This house has been on the market for a looong time at the same price.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 1:33 PM

House needs TONS of work. It's been sitting at this price for many months and they've had tons of open houses. No one is biting at that price.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 1:38 PM

Corcoran could easily get 8.5 for it. C'mon its Carroll Gardens!

Fuggedaboutit!

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 1:45 PM

House looks dreadful...

But YEAH to Brownstoner for fianlly dissing granite! Hate granite!

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 1:46 PM

it doesn't have a lot of curb appeal.
looks kind of depressing actually.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 1:48 PM

Praise Jeezus I did not put granite in our kitchen, because the granite counterop on our bathroom vanity is not even a year old and already has milky spots on it from the water, even though I'm always careful about wiping it down. How can people tolerate granite in a kitchen?

Yuck on this house, but that broker has a cute and nicely finished house on President Street for $1.4 million. I'd go for that one instead, but make it a one-family.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 1:52 PM

good luck, 1:52.

that house on president has AT LEAST one rent controlled tenant, from what i understand.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 1:57 PM

what's in now instead of granite?
hand-hammered copper from special
artisinal makers in Nepal?
"Green" composite cellulose made with actual shredded money?
Antique never-used formica from circa 1964?
Gimme a break.
The only thing haf-decent about this dump are the nice granite counters, even the cabinets suck.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 1:59 PM

It has a huge extension which doesn't feel in sync with the rest of the building. It was clearly carved up and abused inside. The backyard is the tiniest, most depressing, cement slab you've ever seen. It's overlooked by crap on 7th around the corner.

Overall it has, IN MY OPINION, a very carroll gardens/cobble hill feel. You feel a lot more post-war lower middle class kitch than earlier victiorian, double-parlor grandeur. Anyone else get that? I always feel that in the CG/CH places which is why I can't understand the very recent jump up in their pricing.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 2:01 PM

i agree, 1:59.

the granite looks good to me.

slap some white paint on those cabinets and some new floors (1000 bucks) and you've got a great new kitchen.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 2:02 PM

"what's in now instead of granite?"

It's not so much the granite countertop that looks off. It's that plus a granite backsplash that isn't so appealing, at least to me.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 2:07 PM

CONCRETE!!! The very best counter top there is.

Granite is pure suburban dump. Nothing says tacky like granite.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 2:09 PM

what's wrong with granite counter tops? huh? love... mine looks great and is so easy to clean, etc.... put anything and everything on it!
this kitchen here is just ugly that's all.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 2:10 PM

"Yuck on this house, but that broker has a cute and nicely finished house on President Street for $1.4 million. I'd go for that one instead, but make it a one-family."

EVERY broker in Brooklyn has that President Street house. And not one of them can sell it! That house has been on the market forever.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 2:13 PM

I'm not shopping for a house (we own one already) so I don't know the history of the President Street house. I just happened to see the listing when going to the link for this HOTD, and it shows a heck of a lot better in the photos than the HOTD. This house shows like crap.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 2:18 PM

I love my granite counters.
Concrete counters sound super gross.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 2:22 PM

There are many other countertop materials than granite, 1:59. That's all. And you can make fun of high-end trends, but it was granite that was always considered the precious, fancy countertop material.

We have Ceasarstone (quartz) which we love, but I'd rather have Corian or something considered less fashionable than granite, if strictly looking at maintenance and upkeep. Anything I have to re-seal with harsh chemicals regularly is not going to work for me.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 2:23 PM

From Open House Picks 11/16/07:

"We saw the PS house a few weeks ago and it is in terrible, terrible condition. It needs to be completely ripped and replaced inside, in my opinion. It was truly scary. I guess that explains the lower price (when compared with the $2.8-$3+mm places in similar locations). I still think the price seems high but maybe not when compared to some of the other prices out there.

But seriously- you have to have the stomach (and pocketbook) for ridiculously high amounts of renovation if you're gonna make the place work. The photos are deceiving."

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 2:24 PM

Concrete stains, is not practical and needs re-sealing too, just like granite does.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 2:24 PM

All I know is that Buscemi lives on the block and I'm dyin' to get my new screenplay in his mitts. It's worth buying this dump for the proximity!

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 2:25 PM

You could put half a mil into renovation and you'd STILL have those loud assed kids from John Jay hanging out on the building stoop next door. NO THANK YOU!

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 2:26 PM

Gotta laugh at 2:01's description of this house as having a CH/CG feel. It's true -- our brownstone in Carroll Gardens also lacks some of that grandeur that's more common in Park Slope houses and places like Ft Green. But, to answer your question, the reason there's a run up in Carroll Gardens is not the housing stock (which isn't nearly as nice as in other neighborhoods) but in the entire neighborhood feeling -- good restaurants, public schools, etc. People really want to live in the neighborhood because it feels a bit like a small town, and not because the homes are especially lovely. Of course, the few recent postings of brownstones in CG at $3 million plus are ridiculous and clearly not justified, but the reason the housing prices have increased tremendously over the last 5 years reflect families wanting to live here, even in mediocre housing (compared to other neighborhoods, that is). I'm surprised, too.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 2:27 PM

I think it's refreshing to see something that looks like it hasn't been renovated within an inch of its life. Looks perfectly livable to me, and for once, the price almost seems halfway reasonable.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 2:31 PM

the president house is in ps 282, which probably costs it for those who come out salivating for the almighty 321.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 2:33 PM

"I think it's refreshing to see something that looks like it hasn't been renovated within an inch of its life. "

Not if it's got no detail. Sorry.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 2:34 PM

Well then by all means, rush out and buy the place, 2:31. Those homemade cabinets have tons o' charm!

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 2:34 PM

It's not livable. Once you see the inside, you'll know it needs work. The broker talks endlessly about the high sq. footage. Clearly the owner made some calculations based on that size and won't lower the price to deal with the ugly factor.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 2:35 PM

Sorry folks, this house IS NOT zoned for PS 321.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 2:37 PM

This house is on the wrong side of 5th for 321.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 2:37 PM

What people need to realize is that Park Slope fixer-uppers are not selling at high prices. Anywhere. Not the Montgomery mansions, not these non-descript brownstones. Price needs to come down.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 2:38 PM

2:26 - I live on this block and really the John Jay kids are not the problem you make them out to be. 5th Street bet 6/7 is a truly lovely location - near the subway, equidistant to park and 5th ave restaurants/shops, 7th ave convenience - and the block itself is very friendly. Too bad the house is not in better shape. I used to see the old guy who lived there and he was definitely old school so I'm sure it has a kind of museum quality inside. If I had the money, I'd buy just to stay in this location and have a nice big house. But I agree it's overpriced given the condition of the house.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 2:39 PM

Re: school zone - it's true that it's not zoned for 321 (321 zone ends on the *other* side of 5th). But it's zoned for 39, which more and more neighborhood folks are sending their kids to and raving about. 39 is a gem of a school with a great new principal, increasingly active PTA. While 321 is great too, some folks actually prefer the smaller, more intimate size of 39 to the huge 321, which is also notoriously plagued with overcrowding. Not sure how much this matters to the buyer (seems lots of the wealthier buyers these days opt for private school) but just a point to make in addition to those about the condition of the house.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 2:43 PM

"Concrete stains, is not practical and needs re-sealing too, just like granite does."

Concrete doesn't stain and is totally practical. And it looks totally cool. I have it, love it, and have no stains at all.

Granite is just totally over.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 2:48 PM

2:43, it's not zoned for 39. It's zoned for 282, which is district 13. Don't know much about the school, other than the gossip is that it is a "rote learning" old-school type place. Considered the best elementary school in district 13 and very popular among out of zone African American families, who travel great distances to send their kids there.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 2:50 PM

people, I have countertops made of ice. Come on over before they melt!

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 2:51 PM

2:43, have you ever actually visited PS 39? was there recently for an open house and while it is ok, and the principal did seem very switched on, I was really underwhelmed by the cramped building and extremely variable teaching I saw. I don't think there's any comparison to 321, if you have a kid who's going to be attending any time soon. I would not pay a premium for a house in ps 39 district.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 2:51 PM

i've also heard REALLY great things about ps. 39.

i think it's starting to give 321 a run for it's money.

having both of these top notch schools in park slope is something the parents should be really proud of.

their involvement has brought them back from the dead.

i wish we'd see it more in the middle and high schools in park slope...

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 2:53 PM

2:50 - Re: school zoning - I think the different houses are getting confused. Todays' HOTD on 5th Street is definitely zoned for PS 39 - check insideschools.org. The house at 601 President Street is zoned for 282. I don't know much about 282, but overall I believe District 15's reputation is superior to District 13 in terms of more progressive teaching. Not sure how much school district matters to folks on this list/potential buyers, but I think it's an important point for buyers with families who are considering public schools - and these days, even if you have the money for private, there's so much demand and so little space that one does need a back-up, and I think 39 is a good one, and that's the one that's relevant to discussing the HOTD.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 2:55 PM

I walked past John Jay one day when two girls were getting ready to fight and it was actually truly scary for me. They were being so aggressive. You can see the security guards and cops posted outside are always really watching out for fights, in a serious way. It's a tough school. However, I have never seen the kids hanging out on nearby stoops of houses.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 2:56 PM

2:51, please. How much can you glean about the quality of teaching from an open house? I'm sure if I wandered through your place of work one day I could make a snap judgment about your abilities.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 2:57 PM

But $2 million is not a "premium", 2:51. You'll pay $600,000 to one million more to be in PS 321. THAT's paying a "premium".

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 2:59 PM

John Jay is actually 3 different schools now. 2 junior high and one high school. A hell of a lot better than when it was one gigantic hellacious high school, but still... junior high school age kids sometimes seem WORSE to me. HOrmones out of control and LOUD!

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 3:00 PM

I have to say that I can't people who make pronouncements such as: "granite is over".
I mean, get a life. get a grip. get a prescription.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 3:05 PM

3:05, that's OK. I hate people with granite countertops.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 3:08 PM

thank YOU, 3:05!

i agree.

my philosophy is that anyone who says shit like that are so far "over" that they don't know their ass from their elbows anymore.

it's absurdity at its worst.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 3:09 PM

As absurd as that statement sounds, 3:05, don't people want to know how people are generally feeling about countertop materials before they invest thousands of dollars into installing a new countertop? The dark wood and dark granite kitchen is starting to become very unappealing to people. If you have that in your kitchen already don't worry about it, just enjoy it, but doing a new installation now you should look ahead, not behind.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 3:13 PM

Re: the "premium" factor between 321 and 39 - I agree that 321 is still more expensive than 39 but I think that's starting to change somewhat. As 321 gets more crowded, and 39 gets better and better (as it has been), families are starting to appreciate schools beyond 321. In our search (when we bought our apt, and now when we are looking for a house), it seems that the "premium" factor is not necessarily tied to schools for high-end buyers, since truly, they must factor in private school - rather, they want a good location and a great house. For example, a lot of North Slope properties close to the express train but NOT zoned for 321 (and in fact zoned for arguably a worse school district/zone than this HOTD) are commanding high asks/sales prices. This 5th St HOTD has a great location and a very good school - the problem with it is just the house itself which is in crummy condition and does not have the charm of much (or any) old detail.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 3:15 PM

That's a really disturbing scene, Brenda. From what I'm hearing you see those aggressive girl-fights in affluent, white suburban schools too. It's *cool* to girls to be that way. It's so disgusting what's happened in American culture for girls that if I had a daughter I'd be tempted to send her to boarding school in Europe for high school.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 3:16 PM

3:13...

I don't take my decorating advice from anonymous people on a blog.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 3:17 PM

Wow 3:11, I have not heard any such stories from my neighbors and we have tons of friends who live right around the HOTD (as do we). I'm sure the John Jay kids can be rowdy, but so too are the kids from the esteemed MS51 on 5th Ave. I'm not discounting your experience, but it sounds to me kind of unusual that you have that perception and I think it would be weird to rule out a giant swatch of Center Slope due to John Jay, which has improved a lot in recent years.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 3:18 PM

Many of these anonymous people on this blog are people looking to buy, 3:17. So if you are a homeowner why would you completely dismiss what buyers like and don't like? And if you do that, you're alone in it. There are entire websites, tv shows, magazines all devoted to tracking trends in home renovations for the reason it's financially wise to do so. Kitchens cost a minimum of $25,000 to install and that's for a cheaper one. It's smart to try and not install something buyers might hate, if you find yourself needing to sell. Nobody knows the future.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 3:20 PM

Every single HGTV show I've seen has installed granite in the kitchen and bathrooms.

Every one.

I watch the channel religiously.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 3:23 PM

I wish I had a dime for every time I heard a John Jay kid scream F@ck at the top of his or her lungs... I'd be able to cover every surface in my kitchen with granite. The cell phone picture taking thing is so true. No class.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 3:38 PM

"Every single HGTV show I've seen has installed granite in the kitchen and bathrooms.

Every one."

And that is indeed proof that granite is as over as any trend can be. When every ranch in middle America has it...

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 3:45 PM

I have always wanted a house with a brown tin awning like this one.
Unfortunately the granite counters in the kitchen are so "over", so very s-u-b-u-r-b-a-n. that it ruins it for me.
I like sports turf counters.
Very edgy and green.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 3:52 PM

Love the soapstone for the counters on the renovation blog! Now that is a nice counter top.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 3:55 PM

I want my whole kitchen to be carved out of one giant piece of soapstone.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 4:04 PM

Silestone, how about Casearstone.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 4:27 PM

Anything else to talk about than the countertops?

The beautiful garden perhaps?

The nice, spacious size?

The perfect location?

Or are you all that dimwitted to talk for 100 comments about which countertop stains more?

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 4:41 PM

I live near 51, and it's true, at dismissal (and lunch) it's basically "Hellions on Parade." Why they let those kids out for lunch I will NEVER know. I guess the cafeteria isn't big enough? Or is it just an easy way to not deal with the problem of controlling a lunchroom? I'm sure the local eateries are good with it, since they make $$ off these kids... but for anyone who has to endure their street-take-over antics, it's highly lame.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 5:14 PM

what kind of countertops do they have in John Jay?

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 5:15 PM

they only take over the streets, if you allow them to, 5:14.

i'm so sick of everyone playing the victim to a bunch of kids.

if it's such a concern for those that live nearby, how about you do something about it?

i remember my 90210 like suburban high school where all the kids were smoking dope in the parking lots and on the neighbors front lawns.

that's what kids do.

if you think these kids are acting abnormally inappropriate, call 311 or talk to the school.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 5:27 PM

I went to a wealthy 90210 style suburban high school too, and there were SO many drugs there. This was in the 80's. Drugs are even more widespread now. Parents just have no clue.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 5:54 PM

I actually think most high schoolers in NYC are ahead of the suburban kids. By high school they've already seen it all. They've done enough drugs to fill up a Chevy Yukon by the 8th grade.

What we have here at John Jay are kids who need some direction and support.

Berading them for having to go to school in a mostly white, wealthy neighborhood to then go home at 3:30 back to the projects would make you a little angry too...

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 5:59 PM

My kid countertop can kick your kid granite's ass all the way to PS 321.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 5:59 PM

The metal awning is worth $3 million, so $2 million is a steal. BUY, BUY, BUY!

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 6:03 PM

Forget the Home Depot countertops what about grandma's wooden cabinets?

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 6:38 PM

I'm not too hot on the numbered streets in Park Slope.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 6:55 PM

Yeah me too, all those numerals.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 7:04 PM

I'm not too hot on the numbers 6 5 5. Dipshit.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 8:19 PM

What is wrong with 6th and 5th streets?

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 8:28 PM

"I'm not too hot on the numbered streets in Park Slope."

I suspect you're not too hot anywhere.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 8:30 PM

this is why park slope sucks! Suck it slopers

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 8:30 PM

Meaning, the numbered streets are too far inland. I prefer the North Slope.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 8:35 PM

Park Slope is getting softer than my childhood teddy bear.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 8:37 PM

Atlantic Avenue is blacktop not water.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 8:38 PM

Hey 8:37 is that a metaphor or a simile?

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 8:42 PM

This might as well be Greenwood.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 8:58 PM

"Atlantic Avenue is blacktop not water."

Check back in 20 years.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 8:59 PM

"This might as well be Greenwood."

Uh, yeah, uh, whatever.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 9:01 PM

Park Slope is soft as 8:37's brain.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 9:02 PM

Love it! It's too easy...

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 9:04 PM

This house would be so much better if it were in Carroll Gardens.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 9:08 PM

This house would rule if they served muffins and assorted snack foods.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 9:35 PM

snack foods are best when served on granite counters. I suspect that those that rail against granite can't afford it. Granite surfaces are natural, beautiful and quite expensive. I installed granite in my kitchen two years ago and I still get a thrill every time I see it. It took millions of years to form under a mountain, the colors are gorgeous. It is spectacular. The look, the feel, the sheen. There is a reason people pay big bucks for it.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 9:59 PM

They'll get their price. Fools are decreasing but still available.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 10:04 PM

I doubt very much that this will sell except as an income producing property. it is too ugly to live in. Look at that facade. the stones looks like they were the backsplash for a firing squad. The iron bars on every window hint at keeping people in more than keeping them out. The place is for the Adam's family poor relations.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 10:28 PM

That's a bit too harsh, 10:28. The facade needs to be re-done, but so do those of many brownstones in Brooklyn. This house is a nice brownstone in a good neighborhood. But it needs a lot of work. The price is high for a total fixer-upper, even if it's in Park Slope. Buyers are being more careful with how much money they spend on houses that need a total renovation.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 11:38 PM

Re: 2:59 saying that folks pay a premium of 600K-1million to be in 321 vs. the same house in teh different school district. Sorry, that's just silly. Private school costs about $25K per year, and 321 (like all NYC elementary schools) offers 6 yrs max to kids - K-5th grade. So the max 321 is "worth" is $150K per kid. Granted, many people have 2 kids, so then *maybe* you can justify a premium of 300K. But that's assuming a number of things: 1) folks actually think 321 is "worth" as much as private school (which I doubt since even it's a wonderful school, it still is a crowded public school with a lot of kids for each teacher, struggle with resources etc. Private school's a whole different story); 2) folks think other schools in the area are worth nothing, which isn't the case. 39, 107, lottery schools in District 15, even PS 10, 295, etc. are all receiving a lot of positive attention and involvement from parents. So yes, 321 may command some kind or premium, but it is no way near 600K. I would say 100-200K max, depending on the property. I just had to set the record straight since these kind of ridiculous comments are just wrong and people reading this blog for factual information about Brooklyn real estate should disregard such exaggerated silliness.

Posted by: guest at January 23, 2008 11:42 PM

It's not that people think PS 321 SHOULD command that premium, 11:42. Where on earth did you get that idea? It's that PS 321 DOES command that premium. Just look at a recent thread about a coop on 3rd Street asking $1.2 million because it's in PS 321. It's a fact the properties in PS 321 get more money than other school districts.

Sure, there's no logical reason whatsoever to pay so so much more money for 5 years in a public school that's never going to be as good as a private school. But well, that doesn't seem to matter to some buyers. Go figure. We ourselves purchased more space in better condition for a lot less money in another neighborhood and plan to send our kid to private school. More people will make that choice the more expensive Park Slope PS 321 gets. When PS 321 was still relatively affordable to middle income young professionals, it made sense to pay a little more for a good public school. But it doesn't make sense to take out a risky jumbo mortgage loan to do it.

Posted by: guest at January 24, 2008 11:28 AM

Actually, if you believe that the real estate market is rising, or at least not going to drop over the relevant 6 years, you could easily justify paying a premium of several hundred thousand dollars per child to live in a good public school district:

If you spend an extra 350k on a house, and expect to get it back when you sell, then the cost is the mortgage interest you pay each year until you sell. At 7%, that would be just about the same as private school tuition for one kid.

So a buyer who is reasonably optimistic about the medium term prospects of Park Slope real estate, and willing to plan to move after elementary school, should be willing to pay roughly 350k *per kid* more to live in PS than in a neighborhood where they would use private school.

Of course, if you think that you might not get back your full $350k, that would make this much more expensive. If you expect prices to drop 40% in real terms over the next 6 years -- as many economists suggest is likely -- then the cost of the premium doubles, and you should only be willing to pay an extra $175k or so per kid. (And that assumes that you have already decided to buy even though you are facing a huge capital loss).

Conversely, if you think that NY real estate is the best investment you could make, you should be willing to pay even more. Indeed, if you were certain it would go up at least 7% per year, it would be rational to pay as large a premium for PS 321 as the bank will lend you, since the premium won't cost you anything.

Thus, a premium of half a million or more for a family-sized house in a good school district would not be unreasonable in a rising market. But in a falling market, the rational premium should quickly shrink.

Posted by: guest at January 26, 2008 4:20 PM

Also, it would be rational to pay something for the OPTION of sending your kid to public school . Private schools often don't work out for particular kids for reasons that are hard to predict in pre-school. And it is quite difficult to switch from one private school to another these days, so having a public school option is worth real money.

How much? That's hard to say.

But in a bubble market where people think that future price increases are inevitable, they should be willing to pay a great deal, since, as noted in the last post, the option is effectively free so long as real estate prices go up at a rate higher than mortgage interest rates.

Aren't bubbles wonderful? Once you accept the premise that prices are going to keep going up, it becomes rational (within the irrationality) to pay anything at all.

Posted by: guest at January 26, 2008 4:35 PM