Anti-AY Lawsuits: And Then There Was One

The AY plan from this vantage looks awesome! Why most peeps are adverse to the progress of Brooklyn and bringing it back to the map of greatness as a city is beyond me. There's no negative environmental impact because the traffic will organically move adaptively the way things do in reality. Don't underestimate our human resiliency and capacity to overcome initial discomfort. In the end, I believe, it will be superb for Brooklyn. To the nimbys and old world thinkers, get used to it!

Posted by: guest at January 14, 2008 9:25 AM

Wow, what wonderful news! Since the appeal of the eminent domain suit doesn't stand a chance in hell, this fight will soon be over.

It's incredible just how inept the AY opponents are. To date, all of their legal efforts have failed miserably. Their vows to "continue the fight" appear more lucicrious with each loss.

Posted by: guest at January 14, 2008 9:29 AM

It will never be built. The Economy will take this shit down. There is a new stadium in Newark NJ. The net may do a 'end round' there. Leaving this area in ruins.

The What

Someday this war is gonna end...

Posted by: guest at January 14, 2008 9:33 AM

what is truly amazing is that most of the people on this board like (and fall for ) the ridiculous propaganda campaign for this insanity. I will admit that as skeptical as I am I believed that those crazy Iranians attacked the massive destroyers without mercy. I believed that those foul mouthed republican guards threatened to blow up the ships.... OOOPs turns out it was a chap named the filipino monkey. And the unedited footage shows no crazy behavior - or at least shows it in context.

the point is- the people who scream YEAHHH with the most vigor spend a lot more time checking out porn than the facts behind this debacle.

Of course this looks good from above- separated from the reality of the areas around it. Of course the promoters told us of thousands of jobs...

It's fine and good to be for progress, change, and development. Not so sure it makes sense to have incompetent government hacks make decisions that have enormous impact on our lives with no oversight whatsoever.

Posted by: guest at January 14, 2008 9:44 AM

"thousands of jobs, affordable housing and a world class arena" is a corporate catch phrase that means bait and switch. Statistics prove that very little %, if any, affordable housing units in the city are on site. It's a loophole in the zoning regulations that allows developers incentives to build subsidized housing somewhere else. They have more bridges to sell you. Ex: Ikea is due to open in August in Red Hook and roughly 40% jobs will go to the disadvantaged RH neighborhood. The rest, mostly managerial, are now filled by hired guns from all over world. If you love to mop the floors, there is an opening for you. The Barclays Arena is going to offer the same old ball game in an otherwise unfair playing field. You, my poor friend, doesn't win.

Posted by: guest at January 14, 2008 9:47 AM

Yeah, but a few really rich people will do pretty damn well. Stop hating on the rich.

Posted by: guest at January 14, 2008 9:50 AM

9:44, Zoloft, Wellbutrin, and Klonopin are good places to begin.

Posted by: guest at January 14, 2008 9:51 AM

Wash 'em down with Mr. Clean, 9:51.

Posted by: guest at January 14, 2008 9:52 AM

What's wrong with mopping floors, 9:47? Are you implying that custodians should be ashamed of their profession and that they don't do important work? Can you imagine how filthy the bathrooms and offices of this city would be without cleaning staff?

Typical arrogance.

Posted by: guest at January 14, 2008 9:58 AM

In times like this the Atlantic Yards is EXACTLY what we need. Here's one for the Forum: During the temporary real estate hiatus in the market what will Brownstowner do now that he has nothing else on his plate excelt psychos like the what? "We" were just curious.

;

Posted by: guest at January 14, 2008 10:00 AM

9:58 absolutely nothing wrong with mopping floors. you're right it's an impt job. sad to say tho it's one of those minimum wage vacancies they'll offer you just to make you think they're doing good for the community, was a selling point in the beginning when they said they'd offer jobs to the area. What jobs? Agion, bait and switch.

Posted by: guest at January 14, 2008 10:08 AM

Wait - you mean Ikea isnt giving over managerial positions to people who have never worked in a managerial capacity before, and certainly never worked at an Ikea before????

Holy $hit Ikea is giving entry level jobs to entry level people?? My god that is crazy!!!!

9:47 - Do you even hear how ridiculous you sound?

FSRG

Posted by: guest at January 14, 2008 10:24 AM

If one believes in Armageddon like neoconiacal asses do, then it's upon us. The Bushes and Cheneys are behind this Republican ruin. The tall buildings are the watch towers with sentries to shoot down anyone against it while gladly watching blood sports.

Posted by: guest at January 14, 2008 10:24 AM

10:24 you miss the pt again. d'ya think there aren't any qualified Red Hook residents to be managers? rest my case, idjits like you are plain blind.

Posted by: guest at January 14, 2008 10:34 AM

10:08,

You're still missing my point about the "mopping floors" comments. If someone has no job and then gets a minimum wage job, that alone is an improvement. A person may stay in that job for a few years and use it as a stepping stone to something better. Minimum wage jobs might be taken as part-time work by a college student (as I did when I was in school). Or a recently-arrived immigrant may take a minimum-wage job as a first step or as a secondary job to pick up extra money. In another example, someone recently released from prison and looking to start over and meet the rigorous demands of parole might take this type of job, eventually moving on to something higher-paying.

The prevailing sentiment on this board appears to be that if the proffered job is (1) unskilled or semi-skilled labor and (2) offering the minimum wage, then it must be worthless. The reality is more complex (even though I agree that the minimum wage should be higher than it currently is).

As 10:24 notes, not everyone has the education, training, experience, and skills to get a "white collar" or "skilled trades" position. Meanwhile, a minimum-wage job can provide some income and teach soft-skills, such as attendance, punctuality, teamwork, and interpersonal relations. Hopefully, with time the person will get promoted, move on to higher-paying job, or go to school to advance his/her career. But if they never take that first step (which is often an unskilled, minimum-wage job like the ones associated with Atlantic Yards), then how can they succeed in the long term?

Posted by: guest at January 14, 2008 10:57 AM

I'm a white collar worker and i am starting to think I may want to mop floors soon. It pays better than doing this.

Posted by: guest at January 14, 2008 11:05 AM

10:34 - No I don't

Posted by: guest at January 14, 2008 11:35 AM

It's about time the lawsuits against this project start to end. Greedy brownstone owners are just making this project even more exspensive. I'm looking forward to when this finally starts.

Posted by: guest at January 14, 2008 12:09 PM

I think you have to combine the comments. There is nothing wrong with entry level -jobs -i.e. mopping floors. What is wrong is paying 2 Billion dollars of our money to create 300 of these jobs. The city could hire 300 people and keep the rest of the money. And remember everyone, this is YOUR money before handing accolades to Mr. Ratner

Posted by: guest at January 14, 2008 12:21 PM

RE: IKEA jobs: Over 70% of the residents of Red Hook live in the projects -- about 8,000 people in total. Since public housing has a requirement of low income, it does stand to reason that the overwhelming majority of residents do not have the education or managerial experience to fill those sorts of managerial positions at Ikea. 300 entry level jobs -- with room to learn new skills and gain work experience -- is great for Red Hook residents. 3.75% of the population of the Red Hook Houses could work at the new Ikea. When you subtract old folks and kids from the equation, that number is a lot higher. Plus, the new employees can walk to work, which is always great for anyone but I'm sure especially appreciated by people in Red Hook, which is under-served by public transportation.

And, no, I don't work for Ikea. I'm just constantly amazed at how some people on this site always want to turn lemonade into lemons.

Posted by: guest at January 14, 2008 12:53 PM

I love lemonade. At Ikea it's only like 50 cents!

Posted by: guest at January 14, 2008 1:01 PM

BrooklynCouch --

I suggest you read some of the highlights from the environmental impact statement that was done by the Empire State Dev. Corporation. You ask why opponents talk of a huge traffic nightmare? Perhaps it's because even the ESDC acknowledges that there will be an additional 20,000 automobile trips to the intersection of Atlantic/4th/Flatbush thanks to this arena-highrise complex. The ESDC acknowledges that this will lead to "queuing" at traffic lights for many blocks in all directions from the AY site. That's when cars have to wait for more than one light cycle to go a single block. And as we all know, that's a recipe for gridlock and incessant honking. What's amazing about the ESDC is that they claim that this is not a serious impact.

You think event traffic won't interfere with rush hour? Game time is sometimes 7:30. Visitors coming by car to the Prudential Center in Newark are advised to arrive in Newark 90 minutes early to allow for traffic and time to park! Oh, and by the way, the ESDC chose to analyze traffic issues only for the 7-8pm window, disregarding the fact that event traffic will certainly begin earlier than 7pm for a 7:30 game!

If the design for this arena were truly forward-thinking in terms of traffic issues, there wouldn't be 4,000 parking spots included. There would be a plan to ban the creation of parking garages in the vicinity. There wouldn't be a plan to create an "interim" parking lot on many blocks of Prospect Heights for another thousand vehicles.

There are so many other problems with AY (chief among them a great deal of obscurity as to whether the public is going to get a good deal on its MASSIVE subsidies to the developer), and what's tragic is that most of them could have been ameliorated through open and decent planning.

But this project has been developer driven from the beginning. And our corrupt political system is more than ready to fork over 22 acres to a single developer, a developer like Ratner who has a miserable record in terms of his projects in Brooklyn.

Ratner is responsible for Metrotech, which created endless deadzones in terms of street life in Downtown Brooklyn. Ratner is responsible for the hideous Atlantic Center and Terminal malls.

It's like electing George W. Bush for a third term.

Posted by: guest at January 14, 2008 1:30 PM

"A third term of GWB would be a lot better than one of Hillary or Obama."

WRONG

Posted by: guest at January 14, 2008 1:43 PM

IKEA: It is interesting to read from a few post above that mentions the residents of Red Hook are mostly un/undereducated albeit untrained to hold managerial positions at Ikea. They are assuming Blacks who live in the NYCHA. But other percentage of residents are educated, trained Whites or Browns, etc. Why do you assume that jobs are only offered to people in the projects? Ikea is practicing discrimination by hiring managers from outside of the area code. And some of those well experienced folks, Black, Latinos, Whites and Asians live right there on Van Brunt street vicinity, and are perhaps out of work.

Posted by: guest at January 14, 2008 1:53 PM

Oh, okay, so now we know BrooklynCouch is an idiot. Only an idiot would like the WORST president in the entire history of the United States to serve another term.

What is it you're afraid will happen under a Democrat? No war with Iran? What?

Posted by: guest at January 14, 2008 2:00 PM

Republicans have managed to run the United States into the ground in a mere 7 years.

I guess that deserves *some* sort of recognition.

Posted by: guest at January 14, 2008 2:02 PM

D-O-N-E-D-E-A-L!!!

Posted by: guest at January 14, 2008 2:03 PM

Metrotech is a huge success and the monday morning quarterbacking about its design is just stupid. The project was designed at a time when building new office space in Brooklyn was considered ridiculous (in fact, it was designed during a period when the viability of Brooklyn, indeed NYC was seriously at question). The project was designed soley to attract high quality tenants to Brooklyn and prove Brooklyn's feasibility as an office center. It fulfilled its mission on both counts and therefore applying 2008 realities onto Metrotech's design ignores history and how we got here.
FSRG

Posted by: guest at January 14, 2008 2:12 PM

Brooklyn Wants a pro team! Build the AY! Daniel G. and his clowns of brownstone living selfish ass whipes should stop pretending they care about the community when all they care about is themselves! Daniel G is a herb that isnt even from Brooklyn, why are we listening to this schmuch????

Posted by: guest at January 14, 2008 2:44 PM

10:24
10:57
11:35
12:53
asstard ignants. always miss the pts.

Posted by: guest at January 14, 2008 2:47 PM

Montrose Morris = chicken little.

Posted by: guest at January 14, 2008 3:13 PM

I don't really want AY, but I am also skeptical of the horror claims; I've already seen how "experts" can create fake disaster scams (examples include human-induced global warming; heterosexual aids fears; bird flu fears; fears that NYC could never get better; fears of economic meltdowns that never happen, etc, etc etc."

If you really think climate change is a "faxe disaster scam" then 2 PM is right. You are truly an idiot.

Posted by: guest at January 14, 2008 3:25 PM

"But admit it: the experience of working in a Metrotech building is incredibly depressing"

Why would it be depressing if I were being appropriatelty compensated? I've worked in a LOT worse atmospheres in this city (31st and 10th in Manhattan, for example) and as I dealt with it as long as I was being paid. If Metrotech is so abhorrent to you, stay out of there! Problem solved.

Posted by: guest at January 14, 2008 3:29 PM

Ahh the perfect Anti-AY thread - linking AY and George W. Bush......

Posted by: guest at January 14, 2008 5:44 PM

The SO-CALLED Environmental Impact Study was a sham. It's like the BS documents your architect gives you for "Scope of Work" or an inspector gives you for your $400 to $500. It was nearly a Paste'n'Print job. Please…

PATHETIC.

If you sent the EIS to Germany and just had one person from an architecture firm and one from an engineering/urban planning firm look at it, they would be appalled…shocked that this BS passes for anything. AND…it is really pure BS when you consider this is “planned” as one of the LARGEST construction projects in US HISTORY, HELLO!

New York is getting so "third world" it's pathetic.

I lived in one of the largest cities in the so-called "developing world". It underwent helter skelter development and now everyone's paying for it (floods because drainage is horrid...floods with poop and rats, okay...TRAFFIC is unreal!)... It is known as the Traffic Jam of The East.

*****
Already, they'll incrementally increase traffic on Flatbush THIS WEEK.

They're closing the Carlton Avenue Bridge on Wednesday 1/16/08.

This is a TROJAN WEDGE in the neighborhood.

Drivers currently shoot over Carlton from Flatbush to avoid going to the Tillary BQE entrance. They get onto the BQE further up and avoid the congestion of Flatbush-Atlantic.

I won't exactly miss the traffic that this creates on Carlton in Fort Greene.

What I WILL MISS is the main pedestrian passageway between Fort Greene and Prospect Heights/Parks Slope. A Trojan Wedge…plan and simple…no need to close the bridge right now, no matter what BS they’re feeding the press on it…if they’re even bothering…

They're closing the bridge when probably NO work will go on with it for ages. They'll just be using it:

1) as a PR move to make it seem like “something” is happening;

2) as an incremental way of trying to dull the community, making people rearrange their lives and try to get used to the inconvenience, community displacement, etc. little by little;

3) as a private little parking lot and staging area for themselves.

The CARLTON AVENUE BRIDGE should NOT BE CLOSED now and NOT FOR 3 YEARS as proposed (!!!) so these fools can sit around and do nothing with it and then, maybe build a parking lot platform over the area. During any necessary closing, the minimum requirement should be that a PEDESTRIAN BRIDGE is be built.

Posted by: guest at January 14, 2008 5:49 PM

The sad thing is that, according to the ruling and NY State law, all a developer has to is admit their project will mess up our environment and they've fulfilled the letter of the law. No need to say how you will make it better, no law to stop you because it will mess things up... you just have to admit it.

So, why bother? It's a rich man's world... fuck us for trying!

Posted by: guest at January 14, 2008 5:53 PM

Doesn't the President have to obtain authorization from Congress to declare war? Didn't the congress reps read the intelligence reports to authorize the war? Oh if I remember correctly Hillary actually had her staff read the report, she didn't have the time to read the report. Hasn't the war been funded for the past 5 years? Seems like more then just Bush & Cheney should be held responsible.

Posted by: guest at January 14, 2008 6:04 PM

6:04,
You wrote "Doesn't the President have to obtain authorization from Congress to declare war?"

The president does not declare war.

Congress does not authorize the president to declare war per se, but supposedly reserves the right to itself to declare war.

U.S. Constitution:
"Congress shall have the power to ... declare War, ..." It does not define the form such declarations will take. Therefore, many have argued congressionally passed authorizations to use military force are "Declarations of War." That concept has never been tested in the American judicial system. This is what happened with Iraq: "authorization to use military force".

Posted by: guest at January 14, 2008 6:15 PM

Say it bx2bklynstill!
The trains are mobbed. Maybe not quite as bad like the numbered lines are when you're on the run of the Midtown-Upper East or Midtown-Upper West which are truly absurd these days, but the rush hour trains through downtown brooklyn are HORRIBLE.

Posted by: guest at January 14, 2008 6:18 PM

The opponents are inept? Or just not in the pocket of every rich white developer and politician. I still dont see no arena, just a crap hole that was CREATED BY RATNER! Make no mistake, any blight there is all from Ratner at this point.

We'll see how inept you all are in 5 years, when it is a wasteland or a land full of your worst nightmares...more rich white people for you to hate!

Be careful what you wish for, you think you hate the "nimby's" now....watch out cause it ain't your poor cousin out of work who is going to be living there. Just you wait.

Posted by: guest at January 14, 2008 6:30 PM

Will there be free steroids with every soda at the games?

Posted by: guest at January 14, 2008 6:35 PM

Again, for all the bitter haters... Rome wasn't built in a day!

Posted by: guest at January 14, 2008 6:48 PM

bx2bklynstill and 6.18:

You ever take a subway home from a Yankee game? Just suck in your gut and stand clear of the closing doors. 50,000 fans can find a way of of that maze 80+ times a year, then 30k can get out of the Atlantic MTA/LIRR station (which will have places to sit around for 1/2 hour, unlike the late night shooting gallery up on 161st.

I'm no AY cheerleader (Im skeptical of all Ratner BS), but am still in favor of the project in general.

Regardless, there have been major improvements at that station in the last 5 years, and they are still making changes.

Posted by: guest at January 14, 2008 6:50 PM

If you buid it they will come, i cant wait to see cars drive through your shitty brownstones while your reading crime and punishment! HAHA!!! Barclays Arena all the way baby! Race has nothing to do with this thread, all races love Basket Ball and thats what Brooklyn needs! Its a world class city with no team! wake up people!

Posted by: guest at January 14, 2008 10:56 PM

10:56, you are the poster child for the horror to come.

Posted by: guest at January 15, 2008 12:38 AM

10:56 is most likely that world class thinker, the What. He never met an obscenity he didn't like- you gotta wonder what kind of person feels the need be so stupid. It might surprise 10:56 to know that it isn't only the "rich white folk" who don't want the AY built as it is planned. No one wants more traffic and noise and overcrowding- in fact the working poor and the middle class would much rather see the money ratner is getting go into real programs and projects that would benefit them, not line Ratner's pockets. that money could go for much more important things than an arena and an overscaled luxury apartment complex . I'd go for improving mass transit and renovating all the train stations, improving the roads, schools and helping people get health insurance.

All the right wing conservatives seem to have no problem with the state funnelling money to the rich developers, but are the first to scream when the government wants to give money to social programs, for financial aid to families.

Posted by: guest at January 15, 2008 1:21 AM

Just as liberals who decry AY and the violation of property rights are the first to call for restrictions on landlords in the form of rent control or stabilization. I guess one should have control over his/her property only if they are on the right side of an issue.

Posted by: guest at January 15, 2008 8:54 AM

FYI the argument isnt that b/c AY is centrally located over a huge rail/mass-transit hub "everyone will take the train" - the argument is that b/c AY is centrally located and built over a rail/mass-transit hub a significantly larger percentage of people will take mass-transit (or walk) then would otherwise, and since the population of residents/workers/spectators would be living/working and being entertained in the immediate area of NYC anyway - the environmentally (and economically) sane thing to do is to build developments to MAXIMIZE public transport and centralization. Further not only does such centralization make more environmental sense now - it also ensures that future investments in mass transit infrastructure can be maximized to provide the most 'bang for the buck'. (try building mass transit in sprawled out suburbia for example)

So the summary is - yes, AY may result in more congestion and pollution for those people in the immediate vicinity of AYs BUT it will result in significantly less congestion/pollution for NYC and the region as a whole. Therefore your opposition based on your own personal concerns while ignoring the macro issues is why AY opponents are NIMBYs of the highest order.

Posted by: guest at January 15, 2008 9:38 AM

9:38
Your arguments don't hold water. For example HOW many people do you think would WALK??? TO THE ARENA??? Yeah...like the whole of the immediate area is going to fill the arena. No...people from NJ are going to be driving to Brooklyn (if they still care about this lousy team).

No, it will not "result in significantly less congestion/pollution for NYC and the region as a whole" as you say. The best way to do that would be to do away with the Nets and these useless spectator sports that have people in traffic jams all over the US trying to get out parking lots and onto the roads to get home to their TVs and microwaves. The distribution channels of food and material goods are incredibly high greenhouse gas producing...carting ourselves around all over the place for relatively useless entertainment just adds to emissions...completely avoidable.

Ever here of the "Stop Smoking Now"...well, this pollution is completely avoidable...it is an AVOIDABLE BEHAVIOR.

Posted by: guest at January 15, 2008 10:25 AM

Yours is a very shortsighted view, 9:38- the "more congestion and pollution" for those in the immediate vicinity is hardly a static condition. Pollution and traffic levels increase, and then they spread out. Like an elephant with a thorn in its foot- the elephant is going to look for ways to relieve the pressure and pain, which in turn puts more pressure on other parts of it's body. Pollution and traffic ocngestion are not containable- they are like untreated infection, and in the weakest part of your argument"b/c AY is centrally located and built over a rail/mass-transit hub a significantly larger percentage of people will take mass-transit (or walk) then would otherwise, and since the population of residents/workers/spectators would be living/working and being entertained in the immediate area of NYC anyway - the environmentally (and economically) sane thing to do is to build developments to MAXIMIZE public transport and centralization." the operative phrase is: significantly greater percentage". Because I do not see any comment on how that significantly greater percentage will be accomodated so as not to put greater pressure on the system. In fact your whole argument is really predicated on the assumption that something of such huge proportions will not have a similarly huge impact- so I guess all of you so-called planners are simply sitting around writing environmental impact statements that sound great but in truth are based on a bunch of ego-driven, land grabbing, public money-sucking, political kiss-ass hacks who have their fingers crossed in hopes that all the rest of us are too stupid to recognize media spin when we see it.

An think about this- since you're so worried about the future- centralization works to a tipping point. At some point the center will collapse under its own weight- sure it's otugh and expensive to build mass transit in the suburbs. But someone had better come up with a plan because the supposed benefit of AY will be disipated quickly as it becomes part of the problem. So who is ignoring the macro issue now?

Posted by: guest at January 15, 2008 10:37 AM

You liberal global warming morons need to realize that the world is much bigger then you. Stop farting in wine glasses and smelling them. to post 1:21 Am, i'm white you idiot. show's how much you know. I live 5 blocks away from this project, i cant wait to see it. Go cry wolf somewhere else. We dont need your bullshit comments here, i'm not rich nor am i poor. I am middle class and i like expansion, growth, modernization, & basketball. If you dont like progress you might as well pack your shit and move to Mongolia.

Posted by: guest at January 15, 2008 11:37 AM

Well, and you're a fine representative of the race then. I was truly overwhelmed by the quality of your thinking, your grammer, and your grasp of discourse. It's a forum- do you even understand what that means? Do you own a dictionary?

Once again the pro-AY contingent must resort to insults and misrepresenting the other position. Probably because they can't think that clearly or that far ahead. Must be the intoxicating scent of money that clouds their senses.

Posted by: guest at January 15, 2008 12:49 PM

By the way 11:37- it is us "liberal global warming morons" who do realize how much bigger the world is- although how that plays into AY I can't really tell- but you are certainly a classic example of the social conservative. Have you even heard of Antartica?

Posted by: guest at January 15, 2008 12:56 PM