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December 6, 2007
The Real Deal: A Dose of Reality for Crown Heights Market
Citing some of the discussions on this blog, real estate mag The Real Deal puts the Crown Heights market in its place this month with an article entitled, "Sellers Swallowing Their Pride in Crown Heights." While not dismissing the nabe's merits, the basic thesis is that the market got ahead of itself and there're are lots of homeowners with a deluded sense of what their places are worth. (Yesterday's HOTD is further proof of that phenomenon.) Several brokers are surprisingly frank about clients who insisted on slapping ridiculous prices on their houses, only to have them languish on the market. Here's a great anecdote:
Kevin McNeill, a senior vice president at Corcoran, is all too familiar with this phenomenon. He points to a three-story townhouse he helped put on the market for $1.2 million back in June. "It was overpriced, but her next-door neighbor had listed at $1.4 million," says McNeill. "Hers was similar [to her neighbor's], and when she saw $1.4 million it was hard to talk her off the ledge." For two months the home languished. Then in August the seller agreed to drop the price by about $100,000, but still it sat. It wasn't until McNeill convinced her to lower the price below $1 million that the house sold. "The minute we brought it to $995,000, we sold it within days," says McNeill. "We closed at $960,000."
The implicit conclusion of the article, which we'd agree with, seems to be that in the new, post-subprime paradigm, $1 million is a huge psychological barrier in Crown Heights, as it is for most of Bed Stuy. But as Corcoran's McNeill says, "When people talk about price reductions in these neighborhoods, it's not about the market, it's about improper pricing."
Sellers Swallowing Their Pride in Crown Heights [The Real Deal]
Photo by gkjarvis
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Comments
Am I that out of touch that $960k still seems like a lot of money to me? Who is buying these places?
This is not a rant against Crown Heights. I like the neighborhood just fine. It just still seems like a lot of cash.
Posted by: downtown_denizen at December 6, 2007 10:44 AM
Lol. I'd have sympathy for them but come on. What did they expect? They should have known better than to buy in Crown Heights. Crown Heights always has been and always will be a losing proposition.
Posted by: guest at December 6, 2007 10:44 AM
For most people...1 million bucks is far from a losing proposition, 10:44.
Please come back to reality.
Most of these people bought their homes for PENNIES.
Posted by: guest at December 6, 2007 10:47 AM
I like those houses - are those single large bow-faced rooms upstairs?
Posted by: guest at December 6, 2007 10:51 AM
Oh God...here goes another dude bashing somebody's neighborhood...ho hum hum.
Tired of all these armchair critics talking bout "every nabe that's not theirs sucks" like we're in the fuckin 5th grade again.
Get a life bitch.
The article is merely enlightening us by showing the psychological barriers buyers face with $1M vs the sellers playing chicken with their ask prices.
Got it punk?
Posted by: guest at December 6, 2007 10:59 AM
Downtown:
I'm guessing its folks like me, who hit the real estate lottery by being luck enough to purchase in BK when you could still get 2brs for $125k (which is now worth in excess of 7-800K). These folks may have kids and want more room and are looking to take their equity in their Park Slope, Boerum Hill, Brooklyn Heights and Cobble Hill apartments and buy something bigger.
I've also read stories, one in the NYTimes I recall, about a couple in Manhattan with a kid who purchased in Crown Heights (they were not Hasidic) in order to get more space for less money.
Posted by: guest at December 6, 2007 11:05 AM
I don't think that Crown Heights has arrived yet. As the article notes, the neighborhood lacks amenities, and the local schools are awful. Plus, you have a lot of low-income housing, which explains the area's high crime rate. A beautiful brownstone is nice, but if there are no decent places to shop or have a sit-down meal, you're likely to look elsewhere when making the biggest purchase of your life.
Until these matters are addressed, the neighborhood will continue to lag.
Posted by: guest at December 6, 2007 11:20 AM
True, 9.99 vs. 10.00 makes a big mental difference, bu this also speaks to the rise in prices extending further out beyond PS, BH, CG, snd such pre-maturely leaving owners belieiving they were taking part in this real estate lottery when in fact they weren't becuase it was crown heights. Beutifull houses. Sit one of those on the North Slope and you will pay 2-3M. 1.4 would seem cheap, woudln't it? Location!
Posted by: guest at December 6, 2007 11:28 AM
It's pretty simple really. I don't think it's a "psychological barrier" but a real, practical, common sense barrier. The neighborhood may be nice and have its pros and cons, but just like in Bed Stuy, and other neighborhoods that are still in transition, you can't justify paying those prices. It's what the broker says: "But WHEN PRICES INCH UP, VALUE DISAPPEARS, and suddenly there's NO DRAW." (sorry for caps, but I think that hits the nail on the head)
Actually, this is what happened to me with Clinton Hill. I was originally looking in Clinton Hill because it was a beautiful, but cheaper, alternative to Park Slope, but not anymore. The market is out of whack, in my opinion, and there is no reason prices should be in line with Park Slope (amenities, schools, transportation, comparative crime stats). So screw it--I am no longer looking in Clinton Hill. This is not a judgment on the merits of the neighborhood, mind you, just an assessment of the value--what you get for your money compared to other places.
Posted by: guest at December 6, 2007 11:42 AM
McNeil is a ham. I've been following his listings for the better part of this year. I understand a 50k or 100k reduction like the one he described, as well as the reduction he orchestrated on the Carroll property he sold a couple months back but he's also the genius that had a listing on President for 1.5 that he cut to a million....and you mean to tell me he didn't have any say in listing a house 500k over market? He deflects blame well.
Posted by: guest at December 6, 2007 11:42 AM
"When people talk about price reductions in these neighborhoods, it's not about the market, it's about improper pricing."
This guy's statement is absurd on its face. When prices are reduced like this, it says *a lot* about the market.
Posted by: guest at December 6, 2007 11:50 AM
By dropping the price below $1MM you also avoid the mansion tax, that could be a big factor here too.
Posted by: guest at December 6, 2007 11:54 AM
The grammar and spelling in this post is a joke. No wonder people think bloggers are idiots.
Posted by: guest at December 6, 2007 12:10 PM
Just out of curiosity, what street is the photo of?
Posted by: guest at December 6, 2007 12:24 PM
The article seems reasonable. Crown Heights does offer fantastic architecture and a nice residential feel, but in terms of retail and proximity to Manhattan, it does take a back seat to other parts of brownstone Brooklyn. It's not hard to understand why it's a challenge to break the $1 million barrier. Some real estate agencies (and sellers) have clearly set their sites too high. But the neighborhood is an up-and-comer, and $960K is nothing to sneeze at, as downtown denizen points out. I bought my Crown Heights home in 2001 and its value has since tripled. It is over $1 million? Nope. But things are improving all of the time and it's not unrealistic to think those days are not too far off in the future.
Posted by: guest at December 6, 2007 12:28 PM
12:24...This is a photo of Carroll Street, near New York Ave.
A ClintinHillLaday
Posted by: guest at December 6, 2007 12:34 PM
low-income housing does not a high crime rate explain.
There are low-income asian and Polish and neighborhoods in NY with low crime rates.
Posted by: guest at December 6, 2007 12:37 PM
Check out this site www.shopbedstuy.com and we are going to team up with the many good businesses in CH as the flight from the congestion of AY accelerates in the fall of '08. CH is one stop on the LIRR from AY but far enough to still find parking. Start your fights for permit only parking FG, PH and PS. What you gonna do when 20,000 visitors run wild on you?
Posted by: guest at December 6, 2007 12:49 PM
These houses seem harmless enough.
Posted by: guest at December 6, 2007 12:50 PM
I have said for a long time now that the sudden price increase in CH was insane.I own on the UES in the city (an investment now)but live in PS Bklyn.I picked up an investment property in CH in 2000 for less than 300k.Four family, five floors.It more than pays for itself.I blinked and all of a sudden every home was on the market for 1 mil and over.Uneducated buyers paid the asking prices and in a few cases over, thinking that they were so savy( they were not)and soon got stuck. Brokers laughed all the way to the bank (Corcoran agents were the worst with pricing)and the new owners wondered how to pay a 8k-10k mortgage when they only had 2k-3k in rental income.Just because a brownstone is a bit cheaper than a NYC apt., does not mean that it is good deal. The price for CH should be between 500-750k tops.Most people who became owners at the inflated prices of the last few years in CH are in trouble with pending foreclosures and before you think you know what they look like ,think again.
Posted by: guest at December 6, 2007 12:56 PM
Nothing we say will change the fact that Crown Heights is a slum that's pretty worthless unless you get your kicks walking around collecting spent condoms and hypodermic needles. Get a grip people.
Posted by: guest at December 6, 2007 1:06 PM
True, 9.99 vs. 10.00 makes a big mental difference, bu this also speaks to the rise in prices extending further out beyond PS, BH, CG, snd such pre-maturely leaving owners belieiving they were taking part in this real estate lottery when in fact they weren't becuase it was crown heights. Beutifull houses. Sit one of those on the North Slope and you will pay 2-3M. 1.4 would seem cheap, woudln't it? Location!
Posted by: guest at December 6, 2007 11:28 AM
What will CH be worth after the 100 billion dollar investment is completed 15 blocks away to the west?
Posted by: guest at December 6, 2007 1:26 PM
Nothing we say will change the fact that Crown Heights is a slum that's pretty worthless unless you get your kicks walking around collecting spent condoms and hypodermic needles. Get a grip people.
Posted by: guest at December 6, 2007 1:06 PM
Never been there, right?
Posted by: guest at December 6, 2007 1:29 PM
"as the flight from the congestion of AY accelerates in the fall of '08."
It's funny little dream world you inhabit, isn't it?
Posted by: guest at December 6, 2007 1:36 PM
Wrong, 1:29: born and raised.
Does that change your mind?
Posted by: guest at December 6, 2007 2:01 PM
"there're are" - try again!
Posted by: guest at December 6, 2007 2:18 PM
"Nothing we say will change the fact that Crown Heights is a slum that's pretty worthless unless you get your kicks walking around collecting spent condoms and hypodermic needles. Get a grip people."
Posted by: guest at December 6, 2007 1:06 PM
I live in Crown Heights. I come home to an absolutely gorgeous (no exaggeration) limestone every night and sometimes very late at night. I have yet to see anything resembling what 1:06 PM described. I have great neighbors who are very friendly. They care a lot about their homes and their block. In short 1:06 PM, nothing you said has a ring of truth to it.
Posted by: guest at December 6, 2007 2:21 PM
Well, 2:21, apparently many of your neighbors disagree with you. Check out the Crown Heights board on brooklynian.com, where posts about muggings, gunfire, gang activity, and assualts are commonplace.
http://www.brooklynian.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=4&sid=fb86b426e5152c2d5878557890cb6088
Posted by: guest at December 6, 2007 2:29 PM
Of course, these neighborhoods have good and bad parts. I would actually like it if someone gave a breakdown as to the good and bad parts of CS and BS.
Posted by: slick at December 6, 2007 2:44 PM
http://www.brooklynpaper.com/sections/news/crime/
Crime occcurs throughout Brooklyn and NYC. Some neighborhods have less crime than CH, some more. Posters like 1:29 and 2:29 seek to stigmatize CH and its residents with alamarist posts that are akin to those from "The What" albeit on another subject. Clearly many, many peoople are comfortable living and buying in CH.
Posted by: guest at December 6, 2007 2:47 PM
Well, 2:21, apparently many of your neighbors disagree with you. Check out the Crown Heights board on brooklynian.com, where posts about muggings, gunfire, gang activity, and assualts are commonplace.
http://www.brooklynian.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=4&sid=fb86b426e5152c2d5878557890cb6088
Posted by: guest at December 6, 2007 2:29 PM
I just read it. Contains lots of different opinions, both pro and con. Have to say though, I didn't read anything that remotely resembled 1:06's comment.
Posted by: guest at December 6, 2007 3:00 PM
1:06 you couldn't be serious about what you see.
Posted by: guest at December 6, 2007 3:34 PM
Where are the front doors on these houses?
Posted by: guest at December 6, 2007 3:36 PM
brooklynian is pure garbage.
Posted by: guest at December 6, 2007 3:38 PM
You'll find many people willing to buy in Baghdad and Beirut, too. That doesn't mean they're safe.
Crown Heights' main claim to fame is that it violates the laws of physics....by sucking and blowing at the same time!
Posted by: guest at December 6, 2007 3:43 PM
Your MOM can do that too, 3:43. But I'm sure you're not bragging about it.
Posted by: guest at December 6, 2007 4:19 PM
4:19, I don't brag about the fact that she CAN do it because she DOESN'T do it. There's a distinction there, Sweetheart. I hope you'll at least attempt to master it.
Your mom, on the other hand, is probably working some Crown Heights alley as we speak, along with all of the other skanky ass, drug-addled whores that populate that nabe.
Posted by: guest at December 6, 2007 5:28 PM
where is crown heights?
is that near park slope?
Posted by: guest at December 6, 2007 4:51 PM
Less than 5 minutes away.
Posted by: guest at December 6, 2007 5:40 PM
Street looks clean and houses look clean.
Posted by: guest at December 6, 2007 5:45 PM
Unfortunately, for me, Crown Heights is synonymous with "Let's go to Kingston Avenue and get a Jew" and "riots". Since this is all about "psychologically" breaking barriers, I can't break that one, psychologically, especially for over a million dollars. Flame on.
Posted by: guest at December 6, 2007 5:46 PM
loooooooooovely.
Posted by: guest at December 6, 2007 5:48 PM
First of all, let's get this out of the way -I agree that the million dollar mark is both a realistic and psychological hurdle that this neighborhood is not ready to jump over, except in rare, one of a kind houses. I have never said otherwise, and as often as I praise and defend my neighborhood, I usually think the prices featured in most of the houses are too high.
It would be nice, for once, for someone who is writing these articles, to quote more people who are actually in the trenches, as it were, instead of always going to outside sources who look in, and act like experts. Contrary to their own popular belief, Corcoran, A&H, Halstead, etc, should never be the only real estate companies asked for their opinions on properties in neighborhoods like Crown Heights. In terms of the historical selling of real estate in this community, they showed up last week, and are in part, responsible for the huge hike in prices over the last few years – right when we got “discovered”. These firms represent most of the better, and higher end properties in the area, including yesterday’s HOTD, the recent Park Place mansion, and the Pacific Street mansion of a couple of months back, mentioned by Jim Winters of Brooklyn Properties, who was the only broker who was actually gave a price range that corresponds to actual sales. These are all wonderful buildings, and fine examples of our architecture and our historical place as an upper class enclave, but not typical of the majority of homes in the area, and not typical of the prices of most of the homes for sale in the area.
I wish the Real Deal author had interviewed some smaller local brokers, like Denise Brown of DHB Properties, who was born and raised here, and sells a wide range of properties in the neighborhood, and could have given a better sense of the rest of the market. I also wish the author would do some research, and provided a better sense of history of the area. The Crown Heights Riots of ’91 were not the defining moment, and for the part of CH that the article is talking about – North Crown Heights, the riots were not here. They were in Crown Heights South, across Eastern Parkway, a very real divide in terms of racial and ethnic communities. To read the article is to think rioters were swarming the streets of Crown Heights North. That is simply not true.
The most telling part of the article was the fact that we are oversaturated with social service housing – the Armory is but one of the many, many facilities in our community. I agree with Rachel Pratt, who is one of the many activists working in our community. Her organization, along with the Crown Heights North Association, which spearheaded the landmarking initiatives, are all working to better this neighborhood for everyone here. The mixture of cultures, incomes, backgrounds and experiences here is unique, and we don’t want to lose that in a race to become the next upscale neighborhood. A vital commercial district will help unite our neighborhood, and that is something that will take much time, money and effort for a lot of reasons.
Crime and safety continue to be pressing issues, but contrary to popular belief, and the Brooklynian, the majority of people here, old and new, have not been the victims of crime, and do not feel unsafe. Who is going to risk life and limb in a war zone? It makes no sense. We stay here, and enjoy our homes because we do not feel unsafe. How many people, and how many times must it be said? Could it be better – of course. And let me say something about the postings on the Brooklynian. It is a message board, geared to and used by, a specific demographic – mostly white, twenty to thirty-somethings. They are not the entire community, or even a majority of the community. People post when something happens to them. They post when they find a new restaurant or bar, as often as they post when something bad happens to them. They are not going to post “I went out to work, and came back late, walking down Nostrand Avenue, and nothing happened to me.” Or “I went to the bodega on Franklin Avenue and bought a beer and chips, and came walked home, just like I do every night.” For every report of harassment or mugging, there are thousands upon thousands of days where nothing happens, therefore no posts.
We have a ways to go. I am not naïve or blind to the realities of where I live. I live here, walk down the streets, buy my groceries here, visit friends, do community work, and go to local restaurants and take out joints. My church is here, I bank blocks away in Bed Stuy, and I take the A train at Nostrand Avenue almost everyday. I walk in Brower Park, and know this neighborhood pretty well. If I was afraid, I would have left. If I thought it was going downhill, I could still get decent dollars for my house, and try somewhere else. But I believe in Crown Heights North. And there are a lot of us who feel the same way. Our goals are simple – slow, steady improvement through economic empowerment for all, community building through sensible real estate management, allowing a healthy mixture of affordable housing, middle income development and preservation, and use of our historic architectural heritage. Improvement of our commercial district, and programs and opportunities to bring those who have been left behind, educationally, economically, housing wise, into the prosperity that we see in our community’s future.
Crown Heights is not striving to be the new Park Slope – we already have one. We are striving to be our own unique selves - the best Crown Heights, an historic neighborhood with a rich and proud past, and a bright future.
Very long - sorry. I'm done now.
Posted by: Montrose Morris at December 6, 2007 5:49 PM
Brownstoner:
Before going to the body of this posting (triggered by the photo of the Carroll Street houses, looking just the way I remember them as a child), I'd like to share some information with people who are waiting for better stores and amenities in Crown Heights before buying in the area.
If you wait that long, you won't be able to afford it.
A good friend with a PhD in planning taught me this: commercial streets in residential neighborhoods are the first to go during their areas' decline, and the last to come back during their areas' comeback. And she knew what she was talking about, having written her thesis on New York City planning and having served as a city official. My suggestion to those straddling the fence on Crown Heights: if you find an affordable house or apartment where you'd like to live (rather than just flip), buy and hold; join others in the neighborhood working to improve Nostrand Avenue (some of them blogging on this site); and remember: services were terrible on the Upper West Side, SoHo, TriBeCa, and -- yes! -- Park Slope before a density of residents with discretionary income changed the scene. (And, of course, it was the ones who bought before the curve who profited most handsomely down the road.)
Now about the photograph. In past postings I've described Crown Heights during the good times when I was a youngster. This pic reminds me of the neighborhood's tougher days in the late 1950's and early 1960's. (Some bloggers think these great houses valueless now. Well, there was a time when you could barely give them away. And people are getting $750,000 to $900,000 today? I just hope they're elders who got them cheap and can reap the benefits of "buy and hold"!)
Carroll Street was (and is) beautiful. I recall it being different from others in the neighborhood because it and some of the surrounding streets had alleys to garages out back. That makes me think these are newer brownstones than ones on streets like Dean, Sterling and Park and that they were built around World War I for people with cars.
I had friends in these houses and always enjoyed them. Although only two- or three-stories tall, their muscular "swell" fronts gave them a monumental character and created a distinctive, monolothic look to their blocks. As yet I hadn't been to Europe, but I imagined this is what Europe looked like. The heavy, cast iron doors leading from their small ground-floor terraces (still visible in some of the houses in the pic), the interesting room shapes inside, and the views to trees along the street all spelled comfort to me -- until the real estate speculators hit Crown Heights and many of my pals and their families moved out.
I'll never forget it. I'm having a snack with a friend in his sunny ground-floor living room, sitting next to the bowfront windows and looking out on his great-looking street, when he announces that his family is moving to a "nice" neighborhood. (But wasn't our neighborhood nice?) And I'd hear more and more about "nice" neighborhoods wherever I went. At my orthodontist's tea parties for his patients' parents, for example, held on the parlor floor of his limestone mansion (this wasn't just a row house, but a full-fledged Belle-Epoque number), I listened to the other well-dressed white women speak to my mother about "the changes"; about the days when the neighborhood was "nice"; and how my orthodontist (who looked like George Brent in a 1930's Warner Brothers flick and obviously enjoyed living well) was "still" the best, even though the neighborhood was "turning" (as if the neighborhood's racial character had anything to with his skills -- or prices; at $5,000 a pop he "still" cost a "bundle," as my dad would say).
Then there was another friend on Carroll Street. She counted the number of her block's recently-arrived African-American families on her fingers until she and her family disappeared, joining the flight to the suburbs. Down Crown Heights' elegant blocks blew the real-estate flyers. Sell before losing your property's value, they said. Let us who've helped your neighbors get out help you get out.
My family lived in an apartment. Pre-War. Six rooms. When my mother first saw it, she knew she had to have it, because the livingroom was big enough for the grand piano belonging to the elderly lady who'd just moved to a nursing home. We rented, so when the block busters arrived a few years later, their tactics were different from the ones applied to home owners. Suddenly, we regularly got letters from new owner- and management companies not listed in any phone book and impossible to contact. The building's public spaces were degraded (the lobby's furnishings chucked; incandescent lights replaced by flourescent; the faux-marble walls painted institutional green). The superintendent, who'd worked in the building for years and was as inobtrusive as he was capable, was replaced by a loud drunk. Individual apartments were turned into rooming houses. Then one night, a fire broke out, not electrical or accidental, but "suspicious." (And from that night, I trembled in my bed at the first sound of fire trucks' sirens -- not a happy feeling for a nine-year old.)
There were people, my parents included, who bucked the trend. Organizing committees. Bringing lawsuits. Marching on St. Mark's Avenue. But the speculation and block-busting proved unstoppable. Around the neighborhood, apartments and houses were cut up, a transient (often male) population was encouraged to move in, and bars started to appear on lots of street corners. I know now that much of this wouldn't have happened without the collusion of banks (red-lining), the FHA (guaranteeing cheap mortgages only to outlying white neighborhoods and suburbs), developers like Levitt (who, until the 1960's discriminated against people of color in his Levittowns -- and said so in a two-page mea culpa in the New York Times after Martin Luther King's assassination), and the planning commission (changing zoning to allow all those bars), but when you're a kid you just hear the great sucking sound, pulling out your friends and social network and leaving behind a small, racially-integrated band of community activists who finally got exhausted and left. (It was the fire for my parents. How long can you stay in a place where your family isn't safe?)
And as for "nice." In our race-obssessed country, many of my white friends' parents characteristically missfired. The early African-American owners were much classier than they, bringing along the Jack and Jill Club for their kids and cotillions at the Waldorf for their teenagers. And they had to have money, because banks wouldn't give them mortgages and the FHA wouldn't cover racially "mixed" neighborhoods. (Read John Oliver Killens, a friend of my parents who lived on Union Street, I think, for the low-down on Brooklyn's African-American bourgeoisie of the period.)
So it's bittersweet to see the houses on Carroll Street again. I'm happy to read in Brownstoner about neighbors who are rallying together to build on what's still great in the neighborhood, but saddened that it's taken this long for others to see what is intrinsically one of the best-built and most beautiful neighborhoods in the city. If my family had owned, I'm pretty sure they would have held. But as renters, they were overwhelmed.
Nostalgic on Park Avenue
Posted by: guest at December 6, 2007 7:43 PM
People really. What kind of megalomania is it that motivates such absurdly long, verbose posts. What *content* is in these posts could be expressed easily in two short paragraphs, perhaps even one. You must really love listening to yourselves.
Posted by: guest at December 6, 2007 8:21 PM
Nostalgic on Park Avenue = Montrose Morris
Posted by: guest at December 6, 2007 8:22 PM
i feel all warm and fuzzy after those last two posts. i mean that kindly.
for those of you who haven't been to crown heights, go first THEN write about it. i finally had a good look over the past couple of weeks, and i'm actually looking forward to finding a home in the neighborhood. we went there on a saturday night, in the daytime, and to a few open houses. the most violent incidents we witnessed were two WHITE women in fancy heels that wiped out on the sidewalk. separate instances. this happened in broad daylight. the horror...
i agree $1million is too much to pay for crown heights... anything over $1million in CH means you're paying for someone else's vision (soprano's kitchen, anyone?) you're there looking for value, after all. anything in the $750 range is a steal.
as far as who A) can afford to pay a million dollars for a home, and B) buys in crown heights... young couple with a baby looking for some space. my guess is that our baby will be happier with a yard and fabulous parks, and she won't be crying about missing the hot chocolate at the corner starbucks. how's that for having hope in a neighborhood? that said, we're taking our time to find what we want, where we want. market is only getting worse, not better. prices will be reasonable again soon.
Posted by: iwannabrownstone at December 6, 2007 9:11 PM
"For every report of harassment or mugging, there are thousands upon thousands of days where nothing happens, therefore no posts."
Crown Heights: You'll Probably Only Get Mugged Once!
God, when I saw the acres and acres of black type, I immediately thought, "Montrose Morris."
Posted by: guest at December 6, 2007 9:13 PM
zzzzzzzzz
too much talk about crown heights this week.
can we please talk about a real neighborhood.
Posted by: guest at December 6, 2007 9:19 PM
iwannabrownstone = Montrose Morris = Nostalgic on Park Avenue
Posted by: guest at December 6, 2007 10:35 PM
Couldn't have said it better myself, 9:19. Why on EARTH are we talking about Crown Heights of all places? Jeezz....
Posted by: guest at December 6, 2007 10:57 PM
iwannabrownstone - I hope you are successful. Let us know how the search goes, and thanks for being open minded and fair.
Nostalgic - You need to write a book. I'm loving every post. Thank you.
No, we are not the same person.
Posted by: Montrose Morris at December 6, 2007 11:32 PM
How did Kevin McNeill get to be an expert on CH when he is part of the problem. He's an idiot. He couldn't talk his client of the fence?! He stated in so many words that he will say whatever he has to no matter how unrealistic to get a listing. And damn the client that has to deal with a stale listing, added carrying costs and a stalled future because he couldn't simply say "get a grip, this is a different market." And he's not the only one. Fillmore is terrible with their pricing as well. (They are listing the overpriced non-moving condos on Dean Street.)
All said, I don't think Crown Heights market got ahead of itself as opposed to realtors not being realistic with their clients. Also, lets not forget that a lot of people priced out of Manhattan and Park Slope that didn't want to live in Bed Stuy and bought everything in Crown Heights because for them it was a bargain.
Posted by: guest at December 7, 2007 2:00 AM
For Montrose Morris's critics, I have a couple of names, Everett Ortner and Margot Gayle. Those two lonely voices in the wilderness relentlessly advocated the preservation of Park Slope (when it was considered a slum) and SoHo (when it was dismissed as a tinderbox), respectively. And look where those neighborhoods are now. I've never met MM, but s/he fits Ortner and Gayle's mold. They fired off mimeographs, MM blogs. (Not that they were universally appreciated, either. Like MM, they were that much ahead of the curve.)
So thanks, 8.22pm. I'll take your note as a compliment, even though you didn't mean it that way.
And iwannabrownstone: hope your kid(s) enjoy Crown Heights as much as I did. Being part of a changing neighborhood carries lessons (mostly positive) for life.
Nostalgic on Park Avenue
Posted by: guest at December 7, 2007 8:56 AM
I rarely read Brownstoner any longer because too many posters are really here to waste their lives in useless pursuits like insulting great neighborhoods and intelligent posters. MM 's posts are full of great observations and information. real information and facts. I think the trolls are just MM wannabes and resent the fact they aren't. Sad really. I think posters like Montrosemorris, Nostalgic, and Iwannabrownstone are the posters who give brownstoner some semblence of credibility and intelligence. Unfortunately, their type of poster seems to get less and less avery day.
I moved to CH 5 years ago- I love it. I certainly don't recognize the hellhole some of you delight in describing as the neighborhood I live in and I am very certain you folk have not been closer to CH than Nebraska. As for the truly insipid idiot who said CH was about "let's go to Kingston Ave. and get a Jew," where have you been for the last 10 years? Let me guess- out to lunch? I won't make excuses for the riots- they were unconscionable and brought out the worst. But both sides have made a long, concerted effort to work together- it has its ups and downs, but at the very least, there are people trying. I have heard plenty of foolish comments on both sides, problems still exist, but the mahjority of people living in CH simply want a good life for themselves and their families and work every day to achieve it.
It's a great neighborhood- sure I'd like a few more amenities- a great coffee shop (NOT Starbucks, please), but there is still plenty here and the shopkeepers are friendly and many of them are neighbors too. It's a bit of a pain to get into Manhattan with just 1 train line close by, but in the overall scheme of life, a wonderful apartment with space and light, friendly neighbors, and trees in the backyard mean far more to me than 50 hi-end chain stores.
Posted by: guest at December 7, 2007 9:46 AM
Montrose = 9:46 = Nostalgic = iwannabrownstone
Posted by: guest at December 7, 2007 10:18 AM
I agree that Montrose Morris appears to have graduated from the Norman Oder School of Journalism. Ditto for Nostalgic on Park Avenue. These two can't express an opinion in less than 1000 words.
Posted by: guest at December 7, 2007 2:25 PM
I disagree with Montrose Morris's absurd comment about brooklynian.com. Of course people will not post about times when they walk home without incident, but that hardly refutes the point that Crown Heights has a high crime rate. It is the absence of posts about violent crime that are telling. If you go to the Park Slope board on brooklynian.com, you see few posts about violent crime, but if you go to the Crown Heights board, they are commonplace.
Posted by: guest at December 7, 2007 2:32 PM
Thanks 10:18am! You may have just identified the charter members of the Back to Crown Heights Movement!
NOP
Posted by: guest at December 7, 2007 3:58 PM
If you compare the crime stats of the 77th precinct (Crown Heights North) today with the crime stats of the 76th precinct (Carroll Gardens) from 1990, you will see that the overall crime rate in Crown Heights is lower (1,431) than the Carroll Gardens crime rate in 1990 (2,719). I moved to CG around 1990 and felt perfectly safe, so these facts say loads about the level of safety in Crown heights today.
Posted by: guest at December 7, 2007 6:46 PM
Nice bit of research, 6.46pm, coupled with a persuasive observation. Please join the BCHM (Back to Crown Heights Movement).
NOP
Posted by: guest at December 8, 2007 12:07 AM
The posts in the Brooklynian may be commonplace, but when you actually read them, there is usually more smoke than fire. Not to downgrade anyone's frightening experience with crime, but they are hardly representative of the entire neighborhood.
Posted by: guest at December 8, 2007 12:22 AM
Hi NOP. Thanks for the invite. I'm definitely part of the BCHM. I did not grow up there, nor do I live there now, but my husband and I are looking at houses and I'm completely infatuated with the area. It feels like an oasis.
Susan Elkins
Posted by: guest at December 8, 2007 4:59 PM
4.59pm:
Infatuated? Oasis? Nice words for Crown Heights. Welcome to BCHM.
NOP
Posted by: guest at December 9, 2007 12:10 AM
Latest Restaurant Additions
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Carroll Gardens Classic Diner
added July 2, 2009 12:00 PM in Boerum Hill -
Tripoli
added July 1, 2009 12:00 PM in Cobble Hill -
Williamsburger
added June 30, 2009 12:00 PM in Williamsburg -
Brooklyn Bread Cafe
added June 29, 2009 12:00 PM in Carroll Gardens, Park Slope -
Naidre's
added June 26, 2009 12:00 PM in Carroll Gardens, Park Slope -
Amorina
added June 25, 2009 12:00 PM in Prospect Heights -
Caracas Arepa Bar: Brooklyn
added June 24, 2009 12:00 PM in Williamsburg -
Dawg Shack
added June 23, 2009 12:00 PM in Gowanus -
Mitchell's
added June 22, 2009 12:00 PM in Prospect Heights -
City Sub
added June 19, 2009 12:00 PM in Park Slope
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