Choosing the Suburbs Over Brooklyn

Yes. I own a two-bedroom, two-bath in Park Slope. A three-bedroom, which is needed for my home-based business and growing family, is beyond reach.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 10:10 AM

New Roc City!!!!!!

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 10:12 AM

Weird how Long Island is not option here in terms of getting "bang" for your proverbial buck.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 10:16 AM

10:16

LI is not an option for 3 big reasons:

Taxes
Utilities costs
So so so so so so culture free. Even Jersey is more sophisticated.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 10:22 AM

Yes, we're probably going to be doing this, unless there is some kind of really dramatic market correction over the next year, which I doubt will come. family of 4, renting in brooklyn, can't afford to buy anything big enough for us. love brooklyn but the prices here are just too linked to the manhattan market at this point and the housing stock too limited - it's really no longer an affordable place to live for most people unless they bought in the neighborhood a long time ago. I think what's really making the decision for us is that even if you go outside of the main "nice" neighborhoods like Park Slope etc., prices are still very very high in the less developed, less convenient and less safe areas like Clinton Hill and Bed Stuy.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 10:32 AM

Property Taxes are high because you can actually send your kids to public school in LI. Factor in the cost of Private school and NYC income tax and then compare it to LI and you will see it can be very comparable.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 10:33 AM

Well, for those who are not familiar with Westchester County, I am a recent transplant from there into Brooklyn, and I must say, I am happy about my decision!

Taxes in West. Cty are nothiing to forget about. They are generally in the 5-digit figures, and can be more than most tax figures in Brooklyn.

While I agree that you can (sometimes) get more bang for your buck in Westchester, you cannot beat the type of diversity, culture, and events that take place in the city - even Brooklyn. Now West. has events, and it is fairly easy to get into the city ( I lived very close to two Metro North Lines), but for single individuals, the city is the place to be, IMHO.

Not to mention, you will need a car up there. Trying to get around on public trans alone up there is beyond believable: 30 min waits between buses, which dont run all night either. The Metro North last departs Grand Central around 1:30 a for most lines, so you are out of luck if you want to stay in the city later.

Even the teenagers from Westchester come into the city!

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 10:34 AM

As much as I hate to agree with 10:22, they are absolutely right! And I'm originally from LI. Nassau County. I currently own a 4 story, 3 family brownstone in Bed-Stuy and the tax difference is nothing to sneeze at. I currently pay $2,500 in prop. taxes. For the same sq/ft in Nassau County, my taxes would be $13,000. Not exactly chump change. Not to mention my ability to subsidize my mortgage with rent rolls from the 2 apartments, and still have two floors for our growing family.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 10:51 AM

Yes 10:51 - But I bet you are not sending kids to pulic school in Bed-Stuy, are You?

What would your annual bill be with 2 or 3 rug rats even going to a modest catholic school in the city - Heck of alot more than $13,000 I bet!

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 10:56 AM

NYC Income tax for a couple making 400k is 16k. That more than eats up the property tax difference + commuting.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 11:09 AM

The people profiled in the article were NYC owners not renters so the article is supposed to highlight so called arbitrage opportunities. If you think more critically about it though, upon selling in NYC you've paid taxes on your gain (gone forever) and given the likelihood of appreciation in NYC real estate over the next 10-20 years, your option to come back is pretty limited. Also, there's the potential for short to long term illiquidity in areas suburban areas with oversupply of housing which may keep you there forever. Think about demographic trends in your lifetime. The boomers are selling from suburbia not buying. Also, if you can pay an estimated 15K a year in property taxes for the rest of your life you can certainly pay for private school tuition for two children, (OK cut some corners, through middle and high school) it kind of evens out. Also don't forget gasoline for car(s), commuting and heating bills for the bigger house. Ultimately, it depends on where you want to live and what your desired lifestyle is. Treating this decision like a Wall Street play is faulty in my view.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 11:10 AM

Wait, how is New Rochelle suburban? It's right over the river and closer than parts of brooklyn, queens and the bronx.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 11:15 AM

"I think what's really making the decision for us is that even if you go outside of the main "nice" neighborhoods like Park Slope etc., prices are still very very high in the less developed, less convenient and less safe areas like Clinton Hill and Bed Stuy."

That sounds like code for any place where there aren't too many black people.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 11:17 AM

pretty much in the same boat as 10:32: family of four renting a 2br, and the 3brs are out of my price range in neighborhoods such as the slope, windsor terrace, prospect heights, etc. we've looked seriously at sunset park, but even there is a bit unaffordable these days, after taking into account the renovations you'd have to do on a lot of places there, the possibility of paying for school. etc. the nj burbs, with all of their trade-offs, are looking like the option of choice. it's definitely a wonderful inversion of the old pattern for brooklyn and for cities, though, that urban real estate is at such a premium to the suburbs.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 11:18 AM

I wouldn't send my kids to school in Long Island or New Rochelle. Sure the kids do well on state standardized exams and they don't have the overcrowding issues but I've been to my nieces school plays in Levittown and call me a snob but just a little too King of Queens/Every Loves Raymond for me. I'd rather send my kids to a good prep school than pay property taxes that would cover half a years tuition.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 11:41 AM

10:56,

You assume that all the public schools on Long Island are great. Most equally suck, and we don't have kids YET. So why should I be so concerned with schooling when we won't have to face that music for another 6 years?

In 6 years time, we will have plenty of equity in our current Brownstone, to either buy in a better area, or maybe someone will work a miracle and the local schools will get better.

I still ain't gonna pay those crazy taxes and still have to send the kids to private school.

You name me ONE good public school system in Nassau county,(Other than Garden City)???

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 11:43 AM

Good arguments all around on this thread. As someone with a growing family (2 pre-school-age kids), the suburbs, with their decent schools, are a powerful draw. Don't forget that you're already financing public schools as a homeowner, so to pay private school tuition on top of that seems like a waste. If it costs me an additonal 10k a year in the burbs for decent schools to educate 2 children, it's not a bad deal. Of course, you're still paying that extra long after the kids have graduated.

On the other hand...city wage tax is a long-term drag, plus higher sales tax.

another good point made: Once you abandon the Manhattan/Brooklyn market, it's hard to get back in unless your salary goes way up or you're willing to seriously downsize.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 11:47 AM

If comparing to NYC Public Schools, I would say all of them save a few really bad ones.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 11:48 AM

1. 11:09, rerun those numbers. A tax gap of $16K is not unheard of for some suburbs, especially in North Jersey. And a couple earning $400K is unusual, even on this affluent site. They'd both need commuter tickets, btw.
2. armchairwarrior: Bay Ridge, Kensington, and Bensonhurst are not cheap. I think Kensington is the cheapest, but its houses are much smaller than what you'd find in suburbia.
3. 11:43, Syosset has good schools. Natalie Portman got a good education there. Dreary, landlocked little 'burb, though.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 12:06 PM

ok 11:43 how about Jericho, Cold Spring Harbor, Port Washington, Manhassett, Rockville Centre. Most of these are in fact considered better than Garden City. These aren't just considered tops in Long Island but tops in the country!

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 12:07 PM

Best of both worlds: Forest Hills Queens. Moved there 2 years ago from Clinton Hill. Still NYC, low property taxes, and cheap real estate relative to Brooklyn/Manhattan. Sure, it's Queens, I understand. But we live in a beautiful historic old townhouse with good public schools and very safe neighborhood.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 12:25 PM

New York City may have some "bad" public schools but Long Island has the worst in the state in Wyandanch. Sucessful schools in LI are very much linked to the affluence of the surrounding community. If you don't live in a certain community you can't go to those schools. The good thing about NYC though is that any kid who works hard and gets good grades can get into any number of specialized well performing middle and high schools. Schools like Hudde, Mark Twain, Bay Academy, the middle and high school on Kingsborough colleg campus,Banneker, Medgar Evers Prep, Hunter and many others are outperforming LI schools despite the socioeconomic background of their students. Lets not forget Bronx Science, Stuyvesant and Brooklyn Tech. I know of two people whose kids come in from Jersey to go to Stuyvesant but I am certain that their are others. Of course NYC public schools have produced more Westinghouse scholars (now called Gateway scholars)than anywhere else in the country. City kids also have access to wall street, the fashion district, advertising, etc... for internships. When the city schools get it right, they really get it right.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 12:30 PM

12:07 - you forgot Lynbrook, Merrick, Great Neck, Herricks and a whole bunch of others. In Westchester, there are a ton of great and good school districts. And 11:43, to say that LI schools suck really demonstrates your ignorance.

The higher suburban property taxes are more than offset by the cost of private schools (especially with two kids) and the city income tax, which is a killer for high-income Brooklynites.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 12:30 PM

I posted at 11:47. Anyone who's given NYC schools even a cursory glance knows that your kids will have a better chance at a good eduction in almost any suburb.

There are execeptions both ways, of course.

But don't forget, most NYC schools don't have decent music and art, there's few organized sports, etc. The facilities are in bad shape, libraries are pretty paltry, supplies are bare bones. Even the most committed teachers can't overcome that.

You can argue all day about the causes and the cures, but if you have children and care about them, you're really rolling the dice if you choose city schools.

The city's low property taxes have certainly helped the RE market, but at the cost of a decent school system. How is it that taxes on a 2 mil. brownstone are $3,500 a year? WTF?

I did some poking around, and in Alpine, NJ, taxes on a 1.5 mil house are $23,000! That'll buy a lot of textbooks.

We've got about 3 years to figure it out before our soon is of kindergarten age; if we can't, hello Montclair!

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 12:34 PM

roslyn, oceanside, merrick, bellmore, wantagh
south shore has great schools as well.
doesn't stand a chance compared to brooklyn as far as culture is concerned, unless you like driving to the local strip mall for some fine dining - and having a drink with 500 guidos at mulcahy's.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 12:34 PM

You might also want to consider that the "best" school in the country may not suit your child let only both (or more) of your children. You may not know this until they are 10, 13, 16. The city provides choice to those lucky enough to be able to fund. Think about paying 15K-20K in property taxes and private school tuition either to enhance a skill / gift or because the school is completely sports centered and your Johnny likes origami.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 12:43 PM

12:25, I like Forest Hills too. But when I was shopping for housing around the time you were, it was no cheaper than, say, South Slope. And the LI automobile mentality on top of narrow city streets makes the 71st/Continental/Austin downtown FH district more clogged and immobilized than anyplace I've seen in Brooklyn.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 12:43 PM

i would never move to the suburbs.

ever.

it's devolved, in my opinion.

the world is moving towards urbanism. that's why it's now more expensive to live in cities. because the quality of life is higher.

moving to the suburbs is settling.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 12:50 PM

JERSEY CITY BABY. Gave up on Brooklyn 3 years ago. Bought a 900 sqt ft loft with deeded underground parking in a historic pencil factory for 365k. Just closed. 7 mins to the WTC from the path. same place would have costed me 750k in prime brooklyn or 1.2 in downtown manhattan. No NYC income tax and no NYC mtg tax. Beautiful brownstone neighborhood. Best decision I ever made. Friends come over and flip out, Most people never think about it and are shocked at what you get for the money.
It the same argument people made 5-10 years ago when you told them you bought in broooklyn. They gave you the snobbish manhattan repsonse, but it's in Brooklyn. Now they are complaining that they cant afford Brooklyn.
Think about it.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 12:52 PM

when you live in brooklyn, at least you live in new york state.

there are many, MANY people out there who will never say they live in new jersey.

it's just a fact.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 12:56 PM

oh and btw, i know 4 people who moved to jersey from park slope actually...right around 2000 or so.

every single one of them wish they had never left, but now feel trapped.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 12:57 PM

hopefully they'll learn how to spell origami while there....

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 1:00 PM

12:34 you make good points about the infracstructure of NYC schools. Many of which are nearing 100, if not over 100 years old. You are wrong though when you say that even committed teachers can't overcome those disadvantages. I overcome challenges everyday. For example, Art and Music programs have been cut because of underfunding due to NYC schools not getting its fair share from the state. The case has been won in Albany and we are still awaiting the check. But the issue is about more than funding. In my school we partner with musicians and artists of all types from the surrounding community to work with students. Field trips are routinely made to their studios as well as to numerous art galleries and museums. My students may not have a regularly scheduled arts & crafts class but they do have a knowledge and appreciation of the arts and art/music history that is well beyond their years. I'd be lying if I said that I wouldn't prefer the comforts of a suburban school building but I love teaching in the city. Due to various DOE and mayoral initiatives the NYC schools are now attracting many of the best and brightest. I came back to teaching myself after an early retirement from a lucrative career in private industry. I do it because I love it. Teachers can and do make all the difference.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 1:03 PM

We are closing on a place within a week, though not exactly the suburbs as it isn't communiting distance.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 1:04 PM

All the 'segregated' communities you list...ie Rockville Center, Syosset, Rosyln.(devoid of diversity). Also, if you don't live there , you're kids can't go there. My point is, to suck up those taxes just for the years your kid goes to school... I'd rather not. however, i'd more than willingly pay for private school, for the sake of my own kids getting the benefit of that expense.

I'll stay in Brooklyn, thank you and Pay my $2,500 in prop. taxes

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 1:14 PM

There are problems -- mostly due to infrastructure and funding -- in NYC schools. But, rather than spend $23K/yr for private school tuition, there are lots of alternatives. So the local elementary school lacks music and art -- you can PAY for that on weekends or afterschool. Help out at the school where you can. And your child has a year with a bad teacher (and yes, we have all had them and we survived), you get tutor. Your child can get a great education with just a little parental effort. I know; I did it. And there are lots of great alterantives for high school (and not just Stuy, Science, etc.) or Murrow, Midwood... There is Beacon, Museum, BHSEC, LaGuardia etc. What they do get is the knowledge that they are fortunate, that they have more than a lot of other people, that there are kids who work very hard to get ahead. That they are not born special. That is a NYC education that you do not get anywhere else.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 1:25 PM

11:10 great points.

On the other hand:

Suburbs are only scary because suburban people have been living there and creating their sick little gated communities there for too long.

Personally, I welcome the spread of diversity to the suburbs (and rural areas) and I'm excited that more brooklynites, manhattanites, and any other city dwellers are infiltrating the Great White Picket Fence. With today's changing workplace, there's no reason we have to be clinging to that turn of the century mentality of the City as Core. Many of us can actually work from home, with a little adjustment.

However, the city is still an essential place to be schooled (both literally and otherwise) -- it's where you grow up, get humbled, learn a little something about something other than the rosebush under your own nose, try your hand at various different dreams, and hopefully meet some interesting people.

We need both. And that movement from one end to the other is what E. M. Forster called wisdom.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 1:35 PM

12:30 - If you need to use Wyndanch as your representation of LI Schools then you are clearly desperate to make a point for which real facts do not provide any evidence.
and as for diversity 1:14 - while the neighborhoods are in fact relatively segregated the reality is so is much of NYC and as for the schools with a few exceptions, suburban schools are generally more integrated then public schools in NYC.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 1:41 PM

"there are many, MANY people out there who will never say they live in new jersey. "

who gives a sh*t?

why not live your life for what is best for yourself and your family and not for what everyone else thinks about it?

not saying one way or another is better, but this is a pretty stupid reason to base a decision on.

JFC.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 1:46 PM

The whole suburbs vs. City thing is so bogus - its simply a matter of personal preference.

I know plenty of people who grew up in the suburbs and are very interesting, smart, sophisticated and full of wisdom and I know plenty of people who grew up in the city who are shallow, sheltered, simple-minded and boring.

As for raising kids - I prefer the city for one very simple reason = DWI

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 1:47 PM

These arguments for the suburbs can make sense on paper, but then you confront the reality of living in the no-culture zone. Long Island would kill me in a slow numbing death. We have friends who live out there, and they made their house really cute, but they have nothing in common with any of their neighbors whatsoever. All their friends are in the city. Too depressing.

The best candidates for living outside the city are those who have an at-home business for which they need the space, who don't commute often, and even then they should choose a more cultural town upstate than go to LI. The towns upstate have far more gays and artists; the "Gay Bohemian" factor as it's called in business points to that being a better financial investment.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 1:53 PM

welcome to the 2 hour commute. Make sure you have satellite radio and a 'roid pad.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 1:55 PM

DWI point is legit.

I went to high school and part of college in LI with so so many stupid kids that would be drunk and behind the wheel EVERY Friday night. I knew all too many who died while driving drunk or by other drunk drivers. It is definately a culture out there, and I am glad I dont ever have to think about that living in the city now.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 1:58 PM

1:55 - And a tank full of $5/gal gas in your FUV.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 2:00 PM

So true, 1:58 and the other who commented on DWI's. I take for granted how much safer and easier (and more fun) it is living in NYC and going out and drinking wine with dinner or cocktails at a party without even having to think about being sober enough to drive...until I try and do that when I'm traveling elsewhere in the country and have my rental car. What a tedious pain in the a**. I think I may have finally been convinced to not bring teenage kids (once I have some) to the suburbs, in thinking about this. I tried my best as a teen in the South to not drive when I'd been drinking, but sometimes it was unavoidable, because however buzzed I was I was more sober than my friends. Or I wouldn't realize I was drunk until I was already driving.

As for gas, a friend was saying it's nearly $100 to fill her SUV now. And my mother spends $60 to fill her little 2-door Mercedes every week. So yeah, you gotta calculate that in too, along with the auto insurance and car payments and maintenance.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 2:08 PM

somebody hit a nerve 1:41. Wyandanch is the worst school system in the state. Not reaching just a fact.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 2:13 PM

2.08 Hits on a point that hasn't been taken into account in the previous posts regarding the cost differential between the city and suburbs. In the city, it is quite easy to get by with no car, or one car. In the suburbs two cars are a minimum, and I've noticed with my relatives that they usually have 3 or 4 cars when the kids become teenagers. This is a pretty big cost - at least $3-4K per month, I would estimate. In addition, one tends to put on more miles in the suburbs.

Benson

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 2:17 PM

Correction: I meant to say $3-4K per year in my previous post.

Benson

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 2:19 PM

Thank you, public school teacher at 1:03. It's great to hear from teachers their inside views and their passion.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 2:19 PM

No way i am not moving with those uneducated Hillbillies. There is nothing to do in suburbs boring boring. Also NYC is the Greatest city in the world not just the United states. the reason prices of real estate are higher here folks is because of us being the center of the universe. If you want to leave i would make 100% complete sure before you do because this is the greates show on earth.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 2:26 PM

Its funny that people always mention NYC's bad schools as a reason to buy or not buy in a community...but everyone fails to mention that NYC has 5 high schools that are ranked in the country's top 50, not to mention that various prep schools.

Seems to me blaming nyc's schools is a bit of a cop out when it comes to making a real estate purchase.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 2:26 PM

Yes, THANK YOU to the NYC teacher who wrote in.

I was going to mention the fact that NYS OWES NYC BILLIONS...but the teacher brought that up. Thank you.

The lack of all that money is very much impacting NYC schools. A lot of people who have kids in NYC schools are in the dark about what is going on and, often it seems, place blame on entities/people who themselves are victims of this suffocation by the state (possibly a good ol' attempt at that neo-con "underfund'em, blame'em, private'em" theft of the public gambit...?).

Anyway, we have friends in the burbs who send their kids to private school. They want their kids to get into the best colleges possible. Not that public school would not get them in...but whatever. Suffice to say, they pay high real estate taxes and very high fancy-pants private schools with all the bells and whistles, private tutors, sports and music lessons, etc., etc. along with too much keeping-up-with-the-Jones and clothing competition among the kids.

Then, as people have been mentioning: the car insurance! A 17 y.o. on your insurance?!!! NOT cheap!

If you want to live in the burbs for the sake of white flight, sense of "safety" or whatever...good luck...then you have ChemLawn come in to charge you to blast the grass with chemicals to make it grow faster (and pollute ground water) and then when it bolts up, they come back to cut it down and charge you to haul it away.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 2:32 PM

To live in a suburban area or urban area is clearly life style choice. Consciencious parents will ensure that their children are properly educated either way, even though both educational options have their drawbacks. Obviously, there is a demand for city living because there doesn't seem to be a big lack of those willing and able to pay the price for homes in the popular Brooklyn neighborhoods and still pay prep school tuition. If there were no takers these homes would not sell. Yes I know that they are not selling as quickly or for quite as much but they still sell. We know that in both Long Island and NYC schools are segregated because of town/neighborhood residency requirements. The advantage in NYC is that the child of an Senegalese or Ecuadorian immigrant can get into a public middle or high school based on merit not address. In Long Island if you live in Wyandanch, you had better not try to enroll your child in a Dix Hill school.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 2:33 PM

Sold my Fort Greene Brownstone a few years ago at more than 300% profit. Purchased a 5500sq.ft home in a gated community in Freehold N.J. for the price of a small studio in Park slope. Most of my neighbors are from both brooklyn and Staten Island and they never looked back. We never realized how traumatized our children were until they came home from school worried that there were "NO" metal detectors. I agree with 12:52, it was the best decision we ever made. Our friends and families are still flipping out. Our children are doing great in public school and my back yard is about the size of the tennis courts in Fort Greene Park. Leaving Brooklyn was scary at first, but now I wonder what took me so long.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 2:34 PM

If you actually read that NY Times article, all the people in it are more conservative UWS types than pioneers who buy brownstones in Brooklyn, who traditionally people who work in the arts or media.

Then there's this quote about another woman in the article:

"She now has a doorman, more space, sweeping views of woods, a private gym and rooftop swimming pool, a shuttle to take her to the Metro-North station, and free coffee and bagels while she waits for the bus."

So is that supposed to sound appealing, that extra block of time to eat a bagel waiting for the shuttle, then ride the shuttle to the train to the city? I just don't see how this article applies to ourselves and most everyone we know who owns property in Brooklyn.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 2:34 PM

There are city people and suburban people. They're different. The suburban people like 2:34 who happened to try living in the city for a while before deciding to leave, they'd be happy with the move to the suburbs. The city people would be miserable. No way around that.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 2:40 PM

3.34 PM;

I am a Brooklyn native, and many of the folks I grew up with (from Gravesend/Bensonhurst) moved to the Freehold area. I know the world of which you speak. It's your choice to live where you want. Let me state for myself, however, that wild horses couldn't drag me to Freehold and those environs. It is such an insular world - it deadens the soul.

What I have found, with both my relatives and in your post, is that most of the folks who move there tend to talk about square footage, as you have done. Somehow I find this sad.

Must be pretty expensive to fill up that Explorer, no?

Benson

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 2:43 PM

I would rather Move to Staten Island than move to new Rochelle. Plus the fact that a lot of these suburbs have no Advocate groups , no transportation so you must own at least 2 cars, and the crime sprees go up and down because of the lack of Police manpower. If you want more police on the streets in the suburbs than we have to raise your taxes. Oh and you own a condo well we will raise your Maintance to because of all the foreclosures there is no money in reserves. Suburbs= more $$$$$$$$$ out of your pocket.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 2:48 PM

It's so true, Benson. The one thing we always hear bragged about from those who move to the suburbs is square footage. That's it, really.

Makes sense. They do stay home all the time in the suburbs. There's no where to go and nothing to do. My FIL literally never leaves his suburban basement. Grocery shopping once a week, that's all.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 2:50 PM

2:43...its all about the square footage!!! What planet do you live on?

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 2:53 PM

2:48 points out everything the NY Times article didn't even approach.

Once more, it's fake news. These NY Times Real Estate section articles are not journalism. Why post them on this blog like they are? They're totally fed to the NY Times by their big RE agency advertisers. In this case the RE agents are simply trying to help their lagging, dead suburban listings that are taking big price cuts and still not selling. It's so transparent.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 2:55 PM

What planet do YOU live on, 2:53?????

LOCATION LOCATION LOCATION

Please try and find one reference that supports any other factor as being more important than location.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 2:56 PM

2.53 PM;

If it's all about the square footage, then you should move to some depressed rural area. I'll mail you some brochures for property in West Virginia.

As I said:sad.

Benson

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 2:57 PM

I have been teaching in the NYC school system for 7 years. I also grew up in long island! I would never want my kids to go to school in Long Island! There are so many things kids learn by being in a school that is infused with interesting, talented, peers and teachers. Families who buy houses in LI and send their kids to those schools, let's say in "Port Washington" or "Great Neck" are basically buying into an all white school. Personally I think people are afraid of sending their children to schools with a minority population, in NYC. So they buy a house in a "perfectly" segregated community and live happily ever after. Ha....

I agree with 11:43. The suburbs (long Island) ... deadens the soul! Nicely said!

By the way, in the school where I teach I can take my students to Lincoln Center to go see ballet and the NY Historical Society on a field trip. Can your children do that in the burbs?

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 2:59 PM

everyone is moving to out of the country.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 3:00 PM

That's right, it's all about the square footage whether you like it or not. You are looking for a reason to be happy with your million dollar closet 2:50. I have no problem bragging about my recently purchased 4200sq.ft.house sitting on 1.2acres. My family has plenty to do.. that is, on the days that you urban folks are not around causing traffic jams heading to our malls. Besides, we are minutes from the city..which makes it a great place to visit. But we don't wanna live there.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 3:03 PM

1:41 It is a fact - not reaching- that Wyandanch has the worst school district in the state and that as a previous poster already stated, NYC has several of the best in the state and 5 in the top 50 in the nation. Your Longiiiislan' broods can not even compete with the likes of Stuyvesant, Bronx Science, Brooklyn Tech, Benjamin Banneker, Brooklyn College Prep, Laguardia, Midwood, etc... and those are just few of the schools doing exceptionally well against the odds. As far as worrying about not having metal detectors in NJ, your child should worry. When was the last time that a student walked into an urban school with an assault rifle and killed his teachers and peers? This seems to happen most frequently in the suburbs where if you are labeled an outcast you do not have any alternatives as far as schooling goes. The city has numerous alternative schools for children who are gay/lesbian and transgender to schools for children who come from homeless families. In the burbs you'd just be assed out. Also drug use is falling among city kids but on the rise in the burbs. Boredom I guess.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 3:03 PM

Thank goodness we don't and will probably never have kids!

Aside from that though, I would like to move to a sustainable co-housing community in New England.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 3:04 PM

There are some gorgeous historic properties in Hudson and Claverack NY repped by one particular realtor up there that I've had my eye on just for fun. They have sat unsold for months. MONTHS. As for towns closer to NYC, just look how long most houses have been listed. Long long time. Any suggestion that droves of New Yorker are fleeing for the suburbs is a total lie. Love how the NY Times didn't even bother to show actual numbers to support the claim there is increased interest in the suburbs. If somebody looked into it, it would be the same numbers as the last few years, at the most. If not fewer people leaving the city for the suburbs. In fact now that I think of it, I remember a recent NY Times article that created a lot of buzz that specifically said there were fewer and fewer whites moving to the suburbs but more black people were choosing the suburbs. YET, this article only featured white people. How interesting. Basically proof this article was fake and fed by RE agents.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 3:04 PM

The Article sums it up like this. Can't Afford NYC you must move.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 3:06 PM

i think some people are missing the point.

for some people, it's not a "choice" between selling their property in Brooklyn and moving to the suburbs. for some, they are getting to the age where they are having children, have a need for more space than their 1 BR rental, and absolutely CANNOT AFFORD to buy something bigger in Brooklyn.

that's the crux of this article.

everyone is getting up in arms over the "soul-deadening" suburbs, but for many people it is choice, it is simply reality.

they have been priced out of Brooklyn.

believe it or not, there are people who want a house to raise their kids but their price range is in the $300K-450K range, not the $650K-inifinity range.

for them, the choice is a painful but obvious one.

i got lucky and bought my first condo at 25 which i was able to trade into a house after years of double digit real estate gains. but for my friends who were either renting or simply too young to get in while the getting was good, i am now watching them reluctantly look for houses in NJ.

i was very fortunate, but i don't sit here and judge them for not having that good fortune. if money was not an issue, they would stay in Brooklyn. but that is not reality.

it really is amazing how judgmental some people are on this site. as if everyone who doesn't live in NYC has no teeth and drives a pickup with a gunrack.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 3:08 PM

Taxes will always go up in suburbs and thatis Just throwing your money away. Plus i could never imagine my kids growing up out of the City that would be very weird because there whole lives would be spent trying to move back to the city. Wow not for me Suburbs stay away.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 3:10 PM

why would I buy in new york when I can buy a huge apartment in Berlin for a 10th of the price and get a job paying in Euros.

the dollar is dead.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 3:10 PM

Whatev, 3:03. Our Brooklyn brownstone is 2700 square feet and being responsible people who don't want to needlessly waste precious resources to heat some monstrosity just so we can brag about our square footage, we're fine with the size of our house. We love it. But you go ahead and enjoy wasting gazillions of gallons of gas in your SUV's and electricity heating your McMansion, and pouring tons of precious water on your green lawn.

As for drugs, huge huge problem in the suburbs. So is drinking and driving. Oh and even better, fewer young males in the suburbs and small towns are going to college. Nice lifestyle for your children.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 3:10 PM

For some of you uneducated folks who tend to believe that large cities are created to breed the best and the brightest,I beg you to rethink your position. There are millions of people who live in these so-called depressed rural areas and would not step a single toe in NY or it's surrounding suburbs.They are happier, healthier, and use the words "Thank You and "Please" with little thought about how you may feel about them. God bless the simple things in life.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 3:13 PM

Actually 3:08, the suburbanites are the ones who get most judgemental. They're the ones always telling city people they are bad parents for living in the city. Even when stats prove otherwise.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 3:14 PM

See, 3:13 is exactly what I'm talking about.

Where are you from, 3:13? Because I used to live in the Midwest and I can tell you that I hear please and thank you from way more city kids than I did from rural Midwestern kids on my recent visit there. City kids are the best and the brightest. As for not wanting to set foot in the city - what, even to visit the best art museums in the world? Tell me how do the suburban and rural kids end up the best and the brightest when they reject culture as a politican stance?

They don't.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 3:17 PM

1:41 It is a fact - not reaching- that Wyandanch has the worst school district in the state and that as a previous poster already stated, NYC has several of the best in the state and 5 in the top 50 in the nation. Your Longiiiislan' broods can not even compete with the likes of Stuyvesant, Bronx Science, Brooklyn Tech, Benjamin Banneker, Brooklyn College Prep, Laguardia, Midwood, etc... and those are just few of the schools doing exceptionally well against the odds. 2:34 as far as worrying about not having metal detectors in NJ, your child should worry. When was the last time that a student walked into an urban school with an assault rifle and killed his teachers and peers? This seems to happen most frequently in the suburbs where if you are labeled an outcast you do not have any alternatives as far as schooling goes. The city has numerous alternative schools for children who are gay/lesbian and transgender to schools for children who come from homeless families. In the burbs you'd just be assed out. Also drug use is falling among city kids but on the rise in the burbs. Boredom I guess.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 3:19 PM

Oops, that's "political" stance. Typo in my 3:17 post.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 3:20 PM

Well said 3:08. I was reading some of these post with a saddened heart. We moved to NJ for the very reasons you stated. Our children needed more space and better schools than NY could offer. We love NY but made a decision to make a change in our lifestyle. We have become so comfortable with the slower pace that we are thinking of retiring down to rural South Carolina...lol.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 3:21 PM

3.13 pm;

I was the person who used the phrase "depressed rural area", which I can see made you upset. It was not my intent to disparage rural areas, though I can see how it comes off that way. Nor do I believe that folks in the city are inherently brighter. Although I live in NYC, I enjoy rural areas and the folks there.

I was using an extreme example to make a response to "Mr McMansion's" ridiculous point that the whole name of the game was the square footage of one's house.

Benson

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 3:24 PM

Oh come on, of course people in the city understand it when some people decide to leave. The problem is, and I'm tired of seeing it and hearing it, that those who choose to leave can't seem to just go and be happy about it. Many have to insult those who stay in the city and feel very superior about the suburbs. Why are you suprised city people react to that by pointing out things that disprove the claims? We have good friends who live on Long Island and they pull that trip sometimes, "oh how can you live in the city and plan to have children". Get over yourselves and stop being so James Dobson. Life is more simple, people are better, and all that crap. Focus on your own damn family, as people like to say!

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 3:28 PM

I was born in Manhattan and spent much of my early life living in a few suburban towns, two of which were NYC suburbs, the other a Chicago suburb.

Can't complain about the overall experience except for the fact that suburban life is dull for a lot of teenagers. However, if they live near NYC, they hop into town to get a taste of things here.

Yeah, it's still true that most city schools are poor sites for education. But let's face facts. The quality of the school is a function of the quality of the students. Kids with lousy attitudes toward school, adults and general orderliness force schools and teachers to focus on issues other than teaching.

Suburban schools benefit from the fact that almost all students attending them are civilized. Not true in urban schools. Having worked in the school system, my opinion is based on inside experience.

But a kid with a little extra brainpower is likely to pass the test for the Gifted Programs in NY City public schools. Entrance into either the Eagle or C.I.G. programs ensures things will go well for the child.

On the other hand, if you must send a kid to private school, the lower property taxes in NYC are offset by tuition.

Meanwhile, like each of NY City's neighborhoods, each suburb and region has its unique character. Unfortunately, as one poster mentioned, Long Island is dangerously culture-free. Forget real estate, the place is plagued with mental foreclosure.

Bottom line, NYC is a more interesting place to live. You can always visit friends in the burbs; they love to invite their old city pals out for a visit.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 3:34 PM

...how do the suburban and rural kids end up the best and the brightest when they reject culture as political stance? You sound like one of those schizo oldmen who talk to themselves and no one listens. 3:13 hit it head on. I live in NY, but I love visiting rural places around the country that reminds me that it's okay to slow down.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 3:36 PM

Taxes for a nice sized house in Westchester come closer to $20K than $10k. We looked up there earlier this fall, and the huge taxes come close to our daughter's tuition here in Brooklyn. The DWI issue is the main reason we moved back to the city several years ago.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 3:38 PM

Benson, you are a scholar and a gentleman. Thank you...there is hope for NY. (lol)

3:13.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 3:39 PM

"By the way, in the school where I teach I can take my students to Lincoln Center to go see ballet and the NY Historical Society on a field trip. Can your children do that in the burbs?"

uhh, sure. why not?

i can remember going to Lincoln Center, the Museum of Natural History, and many other great places in NYC on field trips when i went to grammar school in suburban NJ in the 80's.

it's funny that city people use the word "insular" to describe suburbanites when you yourself actually believe that a school in the suburbs would not have the competance or intellectual desire to hire a freaking bus to drive them 40 minutes to Lincoln Center.

isn't that the definition of "insular"?

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 3:39 PM

3:10, I think you misread 3:03's post. As for the midwest - Montana has the biggest Crystal Meth epidemic in the country. Iowa, South Dakota and North Dakota are not far behind. Unlike crack which hit urban communities of color hard in the 80's, Crystal Meth has devastated rural white communities because you need square footage in remote areas to make the stuff. The rural law enforcement agencies weren't ready for the problem and still can't get a grip on it. The social service agencies are also overwhelmed. So yes I am sure that the rural midwestern youth say thank you to their drug dealers after leaving the trap.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 3:42 PM

"Many have to insult those who stay in the city and feel very superior about the suburbs. "

this feels like a strawman to me.

i don't get this sense at all.

and from reading this thread, it seems more the other way around.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 3:45 PM

I just know what people in the suburbs say to my face about us choosing to live in the city, that's all, 3:45. I wasn't talking about blog comments alone.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 4:00 PM

3:28, you are right. 3yrs. ago I moved out of NY and became a staunch advocate for getting out of the city. I would go on and on about the better life, clean air, the schools,how everybody was idiots etc. Finally at a party my family couldn't take it anymore and they let me have it good. Shortly after my girlfriend brokeup with me, I had to sell my suburban condo, and now I am renting a brownstone apt. in Crown Hts. brooklyn. End of story.

(from the words of Brooklyn's most famous bus driver, Ralph Kramden)

"Be kind to people on the way up,because its' the same people you will meet on the way down"

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 4:04 PM

3:34 I sure as hell hope that you no longer work in a school system, urban or otherwise. I also hope that you were not entrusted to teach children with your mindset of who is civilized and who is not. I get a strong sense that you may equate civil with color/culture but I do hope that I am wrong. Most city schools do okay despite the odds and underfunding, so though a problem clearly exists, most schools do not underperform. Also how can you blame the students for their lack of motivation but never once mention how the attitudes of staff can affect a learner. When my students don't do well, I always ask myself what I could do differently to change the results - no matter the circumstances.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 4:05 PM

i love the fact that the dude with the 4200 sf mcmansion in the burbs is reading and POSTING on brownstoner.

thats says a lot.

i sure as heck aint reading monclair.com every day, that's for darn sure.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 4:08 PM

3:34, I AM GLAD YOU USE THE TERM, "HAVING WORKED" IN THE SCHOOL AS IN "NO LONGER" WORKING IN THE SCHOOL BECAUSE YOU SOUND LIKE A COMPLETE IDIOT.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 4:12 PM

We've contemplated cashing out for the past two years, for the old argument of more space. As school approaches for a three year old, we're thinking about it more seriously, but I just really can't imagine not living here in Brooklyn. It's easier living here than anywhere else.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 4:13 PM

That's because I still own property in Brooklyn, Thank you very much 4:08.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 4:16 PM

I think you just got a urban Bitch-Slap from a surburbanite 4:08.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 4:18 PM

who would want to leave brooklyn now as it's becoming one of the top urban destinations in the country.

it's an incredibly exciting time to be living in a city right now...new york city and brooklyn in particular is experiences one of it's greatest boom times in generations.

all the retail...all the new residents, the refurbishment of parks, of the historic homes, etc...you might not like all of it, but it in certainly an incredible time to be a part of such a thriving metropolis.

i'd feel like i was missing something if i left now.

i can't wait to see the face of brooklyn and nyc in 10 years...in 20 years. this city will lead the country on green living, will be one of the best places on earth to shop local and to live in a vibrant and safe community.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 4:19 PM

Don't get it twisted. We are still originally from the hood, and don't mind displaying our ass-kicking skills....lol.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 4:22 PM

oh please, 4:16.

you do not.

every time this topic comes up, you give the same spiel about how great the burbs are, and then when asked why you post on brownstoner so much, you say you own something.

you'd say that upfront, if that were the case.

"i love the burbs, but..."

that would be the post of a "normal" person, anyway. it would certainly make your posts seem more credible rather than by some broker in bergen county desperate to make a buck.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 4:22 PM

I own a large Victorian house in Weehawken, NJ. I usually check this site for renovation tips, but I thought I would chime in on this thread.

I have a large victorian with a nice backyard on a quiet block. I can get in and out of Manhattan 24 hours a day, unsually in under 20 minutes. The public schools, while not spectacular, are solidly above average and I would wager they are better than most of the public school system in NYC. My taxes are less than $6000.

I have a car, my insurance is about $1000/year. I take public transportation to work, but I use the car to shop, visit family, go to the beach, go skiing, etc.

What is my point? I guess just that it IS possible to move to NJ without forfeiting your "soul". I have all the restaurants/museums/shops/etc in Hoboken and NYC within 20 minutes from me. Good schools, low taxes, great house.

Maybe it's just the last "good deal" in real estate. I moved from the city, and I don't really miss it at all since I still go in all the time.

The difference is that when I come home, I can grill a steak in my backyard without anyone bothering me.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 4:26 PM

I don't mind the suburbs but I would never want to live there. It's just too boring for me. I don't mind visiting but that's as far as it goes for the burbs. Besides, I hate driving.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 4:26 PM

so grilling a steak and square footage are now the reasons to move to the suburbs.

ok. i'll pass.

my reasons for living in the city are the ability to interract with all walks of life every day, go to the market and run into fellow neighbors, wander over to ozzie's coffee shop, talk, have a smoke, hit up the greenmarket and whip up an amazing dinner and then walk two blocks to the wine bar with a few friends after and stumble home and have a nightcap before walking the dog along prospect park.

then wake up on sunday, do some shopping in soho and go to the opera, hit the whitney or a dance performance at bam, followed by dinner at blue ribbon sushi and a movie at home with the kids.

but yeah...grilling a steak and a 6th bedroom sound fun.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 4:35 PM

People who live in the city value diversity, close knit communities with human interaction, a walkable lifestyle and culture at your fingertips.

People in the suburbs value big houses, big cars, a floor for every child and video games.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 4:39 PM

"People in the suburbs value big houses, big cars, a floor for every child and video games. "

and you are proving your urban sophistication and superior intellect by making sweeping generalizations.

yes, every single person who doesn't live in NYC is exactly the same.

great point.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 4:44 PM

i think the person from weehawken all but likened the "city" with hoboken.

it has everything he/she needs.

that's not quite the same as someone who wants to live in one of the 5 boroughs.

sorry, but it's not.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 4:55 PM

thanks Emigre.

I am pretty reasonable.

Much more reasonable than posters like 4:35 who want to judge someone for living in a place they have never experienced themselves.

I was never trying to argue that living in Weehawken was BETTER than living in NYC if all other things were equal. Unfortunately, they are not.

As I live in the real world and do have real world financial constraints, I had to make trade-offs. I would love to own a million dollar Brownstone in Brooklyn, it just isn't feasible.

My point was merely that there are places in NJ that can offer more than a super Walmart.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 4:56 PM

4.35/4.55;

I agree that you have been unduly harsh on the guy from Weehawken. Let's have some true diversity of opinion and thoughts.

Benson

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 4:59 PM

I have to laugh at the comments about text books. My Wife is a Nyc school teacher and she was a School Teacher in Marlboro New Jersey. In her school in Sunset Park she has so many books for the kids to read that she has no place to put them, when she taught in New jersey she had NO text books and would depend on Parents to donate them to the class otherwise she would have to make do with what she had. If you are not sure of what you are saying on this website you should not say anything. No way to good schooling in the suburbs it's just not realtiy. Plus the reality is when you move to the suburbs you are only hoping that your kid will do well in school and move back to NYC and get into the Workforce, because i will tell you first hand there are no jobs out there in Suburbia.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 5:00 PM

most people on here have lived in suburbs before.

i venture to guess that the majority were raised in them and have certainly experienced them for some length of time.

i'm really not sure what the appeal is other than the larger home.

to each his/her own, sure....but the fact of the matter is that it does become self serving to want bigger and bigger and not at some point focus a bit more on quality over quantity.

that is basically the crux of the difference between those that like the burbs or the city.

i prefer quality. this is not only from my own experience, but many city dwellers i have known who have left have regretted their decision within 2-3 years.

it does sometimes come down to financials, of course.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 5:03 PM

doesn't sub mean below?

so suburbs are below that of an urban area....?

hmmmm.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 5:06 PM

By the way Mr. Weehawken,

You can grill a steak in Brooklyn, in a 7 bedroom Victorian home with a spacious backyard, 20 minutes from the city, with a driveway deep enough for eight cars, property tax under 6000 and auto insurance under 1000. All for under 1 million. If that's all you want out life.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 5:09 PM

"I don't even like Weekhawken, but c'mon, you'd rather live in the middle of Staten Island??? Or East New York or Jackson Heights or some "section" of the Bronx (and I don't mean Riverdale)"

yes.

i would rather live in any of the places you mention over weehawaken. without a doubt. jackson heights is one of the most incredible neighborhoods in the city, so your examples aren't the greatest, but yes...i would take any area of the 5 boroughs over weehawken.

that's just me, though.

i've done my time in the burbs. even going back for the holidays for a few days make me realize how happy i am here in brooklyn.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 5:16 PM

Oh please--5:16, you are a self-righteous ignoramus. You state you live in Brooklyn--you are lucky. I would bet my left hand that you'd never take up residence in just "any area" in Staten Island or the Bronx or Queens, simply to remain in NYC. Your smug elitism is so provincial and embarrassing. I am a born and bred New Yorker, and I can't stand people like you who are that full of shit.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 5:34 PM

"a 5500sq.ft home in a gated community"

And probably believes the terrorist hate our freedom.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 5:38 PM

I don't get it. Why are people attacking the Weehawken person?? What the hell is wrong with you people? Not everyone can afford a nice space in NYC. What the hell is wrong with moving somewhere that suits you and budget? Get a life.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 5:40 PM

There are so many extremes in this thread--it's the "5550 sq. ft gated community" extreme versus the "NYC is the center of the universe/ I wouldn't live anywhere else/anything outside of NYC is bumfuck USA" extreme. Reality lies somewhere in the middle, but that's not sensationalist enough, and wouldn't generate 100+ comments, right?

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 5:46 PM

Weehawken sucks! C'mon Charlie, aunt Rose, Milly, uncle Phil, lets get the Weehawken bastard!

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 5:47 PM

This is an interesting thread. I'd be willing to bet most of the people on it either bought in Brooklyn when the buying was good, or else don't have kids (or have plenty of money and childcare if they do). 4:35's description of his idyllic life in Park Slope makes me laugh. We rent in Park Slope and have 2 small children, and while I love the neighborhood, I can tell you that we do not have the time, the energy, or the financial resources to take advantage of the cultural wonders of NYC. While we don't aspire to live in a 4000 sq. ft. house, a 2000 square foot one with a yard would certainly be far pleasanter than what we can afford in our current neighborhood. And the commute from Larchmont would be just as fast as the commute from Kensington, where we might just be able to afford a house if we wanted to stay in Brooklyn. Schools in Westchester are excellent. And we could use some of the money we save on living expenses (NY city tax + $60K tuition AFTER tax for 2 kids in NY private school, just for starters) to go into the city a few times a month to do something *cultural*. Lots of people move from Brooklyn or NYC to the suburbs and don't turn into mindless vegetables - some of you guys need to grow up.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 5:47 PM

The boy, the girl, the white picket fence, and the golden retriever. Oh, and the gas guzzling SUV for the soccer mom. There's a taste of surburbia but it sure as hell isin't for me! HA!

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 5:50 PM

4:35, you life sounds really busy like most people like you. The one thing you interestingly left out of your, day in the life of the city, is time you spend with a loved one. Any loved one. A girl, a guy, children, not even a dog. When the poster talked about grilling in his backyard with 4 bedrooms, he/she is talking about how they to spend their downtime, relative to coming home 4am from a party only to be disturb by the 5am garbage truck.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 5:52 PM

Yes, it would seem that the majority of people posting here are either singles in their 20s, or people who can afford to buy now or bought years ago. Too bad everyone feels the need to be so self righteous and judgmental. I guess none of you really have to worry about money.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 5:52 PM

Start spreading the news, I'm leaving today. I want to be a part of it. New York. New York. If I can make it there I'll make it anywhere.... As soon as I graduate I am headed for New York. I did an internship and got hooked. I love Manhattan but prefer to live in Brooklyn. Yeah, I've heard that parts of Jersey are cool too, but I don't want to be in a place that is like the city, I want to be in the city.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 6:17 PM

I sure dont have to worry about money 5:52.

Thanks for puting that into perspective for me.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 6:20 PM

who gives a shit about new york and new jersey.

Everyone is moving to the south and buying huge fuckin houses in Charlotte or gigantic apartments in atlanta. Shit Chapel Hill and Durham have more culture than NYC now.

you people dont understand that everyone is just leaving the northeast.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 6:23 PM

"Shit Chapel Hill and Durham have more culture than NYC now."

Sad, you actually think that dont you?

Try going to any other city in the world and tell them you are from Chapel Hill - I'm sure the bewildered stares will say it all.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 6:27 PM

It is true that a lot of people are buying down south in Carolina where it is rapidly growing. But to say it has more culture than NYC is ludicrous.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 6:46 PM

It is true that a lot of people are buying down south in Carolina where it is rapidly growing. But to say it has more culture than NYC is ludicrous.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 6:46 PM

"everyone is just leaving the northeast"

I do wish they would hurry up so property prices would drop. C'mon everybody, shoo, shoo! NYC is over. Chapel Hill is where it's at. Go on now, shoo!

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 6:48 PM

i love that someone who either lives in new york city (or lives in north carolina and reads brownstoner hates nyc so much that they live here despite that and pine for days in chapel hill but can't quite get there.

sounds sad.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 7:02 PM

"You name me ONE good public school system in Nassau county,(Other than Garden City)???"

The district where Rockville Centre is located.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 7:18 PM

Yet another hackneyed thread. At least we avoided race-baiting this time.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 7:43 PM

The Carolina's will suck once AY is built.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 8:41 PM

Does anyone have a problem with "suburban sprall", deforestation and the environmental impact this is having on our planet?

I think that's my number 1 problem with suburbs. It's not a very "green" thing to do.

-sg.

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 9:42 PM

the South Illllllllll the dirty South

Posted by: guest at December 31, 2007 11:46 PM

Pig-in-a-blanket anyone? Happy New Year! Yes, I'm a loser, I'm on brownstoner right after midnight.

Posted by: guest at January 1, 2008 12:27 AM

actually UNC and Duke University are world recognition.

Posted by: guest at January 1, 2008 12:31 AM

That's true, 12:31, but people on this blog will deny it ad nauseum, all because it's not NY. Staten Island is deemed more cultural to them than Chapel Hill--silly, really silly, and ignorant. I take it most of them have not been to or lived in Staten Island.

Posted by: guest at January 1, 2008 12:50 AM

Staten Island is where all of my garbage goes.

Posted by: guest at January 1, 2008 1:01 AM

4:05, you wrote:

"3:34 I sure as hell hope that you no longer work in a school system, urban or otherwise. I also hope that you were not entrusted to teach children with your mindset of who is civilized and who is not. I get a strong sense that you may equate civil with color/culture but I do hope that I am wrong. Most city schools do okay despite the odds and underfunding, so though a problem clearly exists, most schools do not underperform. Also how can you blame the students for their lack of motivation but never once mention how the attitudes of staff can affect a learner. When my students don't do well, I always ask myself what I could do differently to change the results - no matter the circumstances."

4:05, as you know, 14% of NYC students are asian. 14% are white. Almost all the other 72% are black and hispanic. You know as well as I do that the top high schools -- Stuyvesant, Bronx Science, Brooklyn Tech, Med/Sci at Midwood -- have student bodies that are 50% asian, over 40% white and less than 10% everyone else.

I'm sure you know the graduation statistics and the college statistics. Maybe you haven't spent time in high schools like the former John Jay in Park Slope, Brookyn.

Maybe you don't know that the top high schools spend about 35% LESS per student than the average high school. The savings compared with the worst schools are even greater.

There are unquestionably some poor teachers. If you believe gains in student performance would result from replacing the poor teachers with good teachers, you'd have to replace about 80% of the teachers to push performance a few percentage points higher. That's not to say that poor teachers account for 80% of educators. But it is obvious that lifting "minority" performance into parity with white and asian performance would require replacing about 80% of all teachers with super teachers. But even then I doubt the gap would close.

Say what you want, but hundreds of thousands of city school kids bring huge non-school problems with them to the classroom. No school can solve many of their problems.

Posted by: guest at January 1, 2008 1:49 AM

1:49

And the inside-school problems start with "teachers" like you :)

Posted by: guest at January 1, 2008 2:23 AM

2:23, you wrote:

"1:49, And the inside-school problems start with "teachers" like you :)"

What are these "inside-school" problems you are referring to?

Posted by: guest at January 1, 2008 2:47 AM

As someone said above:
" 'everyone is just leaving the northeast'
I do wish they would hurry up so property prices would drop. C'mon everybody, shoo, shoo! NYC is over. Chapel Hill is where it's at. Go on now, shoo!"

Right on!

Posted by: guest at January 1, 2008 7:48 AM

The initial topic here was the validity of the Times article on whether it makes sense to "cash out" and for more in Suburbs vs. NYC. This means people who own and want to bank some money for a bit more space. This doesn't include people who are renting or a family of four bursting at the seams in a windowless 1.5 to 2 BR coop. The Times for whatever reason, conjures up these scenarios that are not true and not valid in many cases. There's the school choice, property taxes, commuting, gasoline, general maintenance.....potential loss in apprection and inability to sell when you are ready. If however, you want to move out of the city for other reasons beyond just having 100K in the bank to live off the interest (what a joke) then do your thing. It's a free country. But some of these articles are ridiculous and people should analyze a bit more critically.

Posted by: guest at January 1, 2008 8:37 AM

Some people want the experience of living in NYC and later realize it's not for them, then the cash in on the invested time, which in many ways could be a win win situation financially. Others are here for good by choice or not. It's is exactly that experience - life, culture and work - that is unmatched anywhere else in the world. One is either a true blue New Yorker or a poseur, an opportunist or a humanitarian, and a fortunate one or vice versa.

Posted by: guest at January 1, 2008 9:58 AM

The population of New York City is climbing. It is over 8 million. Some claim it is 8.5 million, counting the illegal immigrants. Credible forecasters predict the population will hit 9 million within 10 years.

Thus, people are arriving faster than they are leaving. The trend augurs well for real estate and a continuing building boom.

Posted by: guest at January 1, 2008 10:20 AM

WHO is the New Yorker and give examples of what makes New York a magnet for anyone, legal or illegal? Help me out here.

Posted by: guest at January 1, 2008 10:29 AM

Water in the south is running out - Record droughts every year! Sooner or later they will all be back. They will not a choice :)

Posted by: guest at January 1, 2008 11:33 AM

If you already know people in the 'burbs and move there, you're better off. But I tried it once, before I met my husband, to live outside the city and I didn't make any friends at all there. I always hear from people in the 'burbs how lonely it is, even from those who in all other respects like it and plan to stay. They have no friends in the town they're living. Just in the city.

Also, I know Raleigh/Durham very very well. There's some cool culture sure, but the person who said it had more culture than NYC has never been to NYC, or if they did they went to the Empire State Building and Ground Zero, caught a show then went home claiming they'd seen NYC. Totally clueless.

Posted by: guest at January 1, 2008 1:47 PM

"actually UNC and Duke University are world recognition"

That statement tells you everything you need to know.

Posted by: guest at January 1, 2008 2:09 PM

Hilarious, 2:09! Yes everybody, move to NC where you too can have bad grammar.

Posted by: guest at January 1, 2008 2:15 PM

Oh please. A cursory read of any Brownstoner (and Curbed, for that matter) thread makes me think that the worst spelling and grammar offenders reside in the 5 boroughs. It's truly shameful.

Posted by: guest at January 1, 2008 2:21 PM

Well yeah, 2:21 we know bad grammar is everywhere. 2:09 was pointing out the irony of bad grammar used by someone who was bragging about world renowned universities in Raleigh/Durham. So now there's no sense of irony outside NYC either?

Posted by: guest at January 1, 2008 2:34 PM

After living in NYC for several years now I can't imagine going back to surburbia. It's quite boring with no excitement. Also, surburbia is full with franchises with very few mom and pop shops. The hell with that. I lovev and need the city!

Posted by: guest at January 1, 2008 2:37 PM

Wow, Brooklyn seems like such a nice place with really great, positive, and kind people. I can't wait to move there. What a community.

Posted by: guest at January 1, 2008 3:33 PM

you don't think it's a positive thing that people love where they live, 3:33??

while some of the comments might be outrageous, the main feeling i get is pride of one's home and neighborhood.

if people in the suburbs felt half as proudful about where they live, they wouldn't be such soul less places to live, i don't think.

the spirit and the drive of the residents of new york city are what make it so special and unique. everything else is secondary.

in the suburbs, it's about the house. the size of it, the quantity of bedrooms, the number of garages and the amount of square feet.

here it's about so many more things.

Posted by: guest at January 1, 2008 4:02 PM

"you don't think it's a positive thing that people love where they live, 3:33??"

Not 3:33. Sure, but since when does loving where you live make it ok to judge and criticize everything else outside of your own bubble? To me, that's pretty lame, and a sign of a narrow-minded provincial person. Not very cosmopolitan, AT ALL. Hmm... the irony.

Posted by: guest at January 1, 2008 4:10 PM

the city dwellers were the ones first attacked by virtue of the article, which with any remotely intelligent mind would realize is not based in fact, but on real estate spin.

i think more city dwellers are familiar with suburban living than those in the suburbs are with urban living. there are a lot of suburban lifers out there you realize who live in jersey 20 minutes away from here and are still TERRIFIED of the big, bad city.

it goes both ways, but i'd argue that most of us here have tried both, and the "green" factor does play a lot into all of this. i'm trying to make as small a footprint on the earth as possible.

i do sometimes get upset that too many people in this country are being greedy, polluting more than their fair share, using up too much water by needing to keep their huge lawns green and ruining acre after acre of land with mcmansions and walmart.

why am i not allowed to be at least a little upset about that??
it's my world too. we are all here together and have to make this work so when i see too many people taking way too much of everything, i think i have every right to be a little bitter.

no?

i really don't think too many people in new york city live in a bubble. anyone who has been here for 15 years has lived through horrible crime, a devastating terrorist attack and numerous other hardships just with the daily life in a big city. not everyone can make it in new york. that can't be said for most suburban lifestyles. it's easier there. that's why people move there.

some people don't like easy.

Posted by: guest at January 1, 2008 4:28 PM

Biggest CLICHE ever. Lame. Lame. Lame.

Posted by: guest at January 1, 2008 4:52 PM

cliches are more based in fact than a lot of the other nonsense out there.

Posted by: guest at January 1, 2008 4:56 PM

The only bubble New Yorkers live in is the last housing bubble!

Forget Kensington. Forget Montclair. Wait and rent.

You're doing your kids no favors by locking them up out in the burbs. I have 3 kids and we are hanging in there in a 2-bed in Carroll Gardens. Can't buy now, of course.

I grew up partly in Queens and Bergen County, N.J. By the time I was 13, I was sneaking back in and riding the subways all day. And whoever said it was right ... when we went on vacation my folks liked to say we were from NEW YORK.

Posted by: guest at January 1, 2008 5:22 PM

here's a tip for the city lovers (and burb lovers with a good sense of humor) out there:

please go out this week to your local blockbuster and rent welcome to the dollhouse.

that's all i'm gonna say.

if you haven't seen it, it's amazing.

and horrifying.

Posted by: guest at January 1, 2008 5:26 PM

I love rural areas. But we could never commute 1.5 to 2 hours. People who do that never see their kids or spouse except on weekends.

Posted by: guest at January 1, 2008 6:35 PM

I moved from Brooklyn to the northern burbs 4 years ago, and almost all of my local friends and neighbors are recent city refugees. While there are certainly things I miss about the city, the benefits of living here are immeasurable. For me, my husband, and our kids.

As for the BS about its being "cultureless" here, I suppose that depends on how much culture one needs. We have three modern art museums, 2 art film houses, 3 performing arts centers, aprox 25 galleries, and a number of smaller music venues within 25 minutes of the house. That's enough for me.

You people seem to ignore the fact that creative artsy new yorkers have been moving to the burbs steadily for the past 5-10 years. In the time we've been here alone there are many new galleries, a new museum, a huge number of new restaurants and gourmet food stores.

Another thing no one mentions is the benefit of being around nature. We live within 10 minutes of 3 huge nature preserves and go hiking every weekend--something I can't imagine living without. The kids get to run around whenever they want, walk in the woods, climb the proverbial tree. And they split the summer between a nature camp and an arts camp.

I understand loving Brooklyn. I was born and raised there. And I understand not wanting to live in the burbs. But please don't damn all burbs with stupid cliches that only apply to a small fraction of what is out here.

Posted by: guest at January 1, 2008 6:48 PM

you had me until the end, 6:48.

problem is...the cultureless suburbs are much more common than not.

there are very few nice "urban" suburban communities around the united states.

Posted by: guest at January 1, 2008 6:56 PM

The devil lives in the suburbs. Why parents subject their young to growing up there is beyond me. Suburbs are the breeding ground for serial killers, mental illness, predators, religious nuts, subprime crises, the Petersons, and the children of the corn. Because it's about the parents not the children, truth be told.

Posted by: guest at January 1, 2008 7:39 PM

6:56, I don't live in an urban burb. In fact, it is very rural. We are 15 minutes from an urban center, which is where some of the cultural amenities I mentioned are. The others are in small towns nearby.

As for 7:39's comments, that's too dumb to respond to. But I will say that my decision to leave Brooklyn was in large part based on the fact that I had grown up there and didn't want that experience for my kids. People who had bad burb childhoods have an idealized idea of childhood in the city--the reality isn't so hot.

Posted by: guest at January 1, 2008 7:52 PM

It's not like city kids never play outside. Talk about cliches. City kids walk everywhere. Not ride in cars everywhere. Many city people make the effort to spend at least one month in the Summer out of the city. Frankly, I know way more kids who play outdoors because they go to city parks, than I know kids in the suburbs who do that. Sadly, being outside is less and less a part of the culture in suburbia. All studies point to that, and show people in urban environments are healthier. Look it up.

Posted by: guest at January 1, 2008 8:03 PM

So which suburb are you living in, 6:48? We're looking for exactly what you're describing - can't say I've seen it though...

Posted by: guest at January 1, 2008 8:03 PM

there are trade-offs, sure but i truly believe that for this country to really move ahead and stop sitting back and coasting, there will be a need for a major cultural shift.

the diversity that america represents is key to the future of our country.

i see so many people i went to high school with who continue to live in the burbs who are just coasting. there is so much sameness, that it creates for large pockets of dead all over the country. urban areas make you strive to be better. they force you to use the survival of the fittest nature in all of us. and most of all, city living gives you more of a chance to make mistakes.

we learn most from the mistakes.

and the more mistakes we make, the further ahead we will go.

look at the countries now who will soon overtake the united states to become leading world superpowers. china and india.

so many mistakes in their past, but they learn from them and strive to move forward.

the u.s. is lacking this right now.

we need to be more curious, we need to learn more about other cultures and other countries. we need to open our minds.

we must continue to try to improve every day.

i believe a more communal, urban environment makes that a little easier.

Posted by: guest at January 1, 2008 8:06 PM

Last time I was in a rural area I saw so many fat people it was truly disturbing. And these were young people in their 20's that I saw, too. So sad.

Posted by: guest at January 1, 2008 8:07 PM

Well said 7:39.

Posted by: guest at January 1, 2008 8:36 PM

I'm tubby for NYC standards, but when I go visit family in the midwest, people ask if I'm a model!

Posted by: guest at January 1, 2008 8:44 PM

I grew up in the suburbs of LI (Suffolk County) and moved to Brooklyn while in college and have lived here ever since.

Whenever I go out to LI to visit I am always saddend by all of my school friends that never made it out and still lead the same dull dreary existence.

My pre-college life in the suburbs consisted primarily of drinking and driving, hanging out in the woods or corn fields with friends getting high, and the occassional thrill of a house party when someone's parents were out of town. Probably 70% of the people I went to school with had the same life and I am so glad I am one of the few who didnt let that lifestyle permenantly infect me.

PS - Whenever I visit my parents they always rave about their favorite restaurants based on 1 criteria: Quantity of the food given.

Posted by: guest at January 1, 2008 9:06 PM

Many people who move to where I live do so in part to be able to do outdoor sports. There's hiking, biking, cross-country skiing, sailing, and swimming. Not to mention every imaginable team sport for the kids. Sports and outdoor activities are a big part of our lives. The idea of suburbanites not being active is absurd. We do drive to the store, but we walk from our house to the 200 acres of state-owned land down the road and go for long hikes every weekend. I'm far more active than I was living in Brooklyn. As for the kids, in addition to team sports they spend hours running around outside--something a city can't do unless someone takes them to the park. Of course, we take our kids to the local parks too.

You all are talking about cliches based on middle-America. It's not at all the reality in New York's better burbs.

8:03--I live in Croton. The commute is 15 minutes longer than my commute from Brooklyn--a compromise I am more than willing to make.

Posted by: guest at January 1, 2008 9:10 PM

9:06 Here again - Forgot to mention the fabulous diversity in my school: The asian guy was the one everyone cheated off of, and the black kid was the whitest guy I have ever known.

Not race baiting or exaggerating by any means, just the reality of my past suburban life.

Posted by: guest at January 1, 2008 9:26 PM

I am bringing my kids up in Brooklyn, but I wonder what some of you think the experience of growing up in the city is like. I grew up in Manhattan. My teenage life consisted of lots of drinking and loads of drugs, hanging out on the street, and the occasional thrill of a party when someone's parents went away. Now and then we'd try to get into a club or bar, but that never worked so we head back to the corner or to someone's bedroom where we did more drugs. Sounds just like 9:06's life in LI. That's what being a teenager is like, no matter where you are.

Posted by: guest at January 1, 2008 9:36 PM

9:36 - at least you had the option of other things to occupy your mind and time...

Out in the wasteland of suburbia, the only option I had was laser tag or the UA theater.

Posted by: guest at January 1, 2008 9:39 PM

Croton counts as rural?

Posted by: guest at January 1, 2008 10:24 PM

"Out in the wasteland of suburbia, the only option I had was laser tag or the UA theater."

Sounds like my childhood in outer Queens.

Posted by: guest at January 1, 2008 10:26 PM

I like cities because I personally enjoy being surrounded by hordes of people and movement and activity when I step outside my door. I like having the option of visiting tons of museums and theaters and restaurants and cafes on a daily basis, and of walking there. I also enjoy being close to my job. But, all that convenience and proximity is a luxury and comes at a price. It's expensive to live in the city.

At the same time, I'm not so smug as to think that city life is the one true path, or that I'm somehow morally superior to those who live elsewhere, whatever their reasons (even if it's because they want a McMansion). I do get kind of depressed when I visit the suburbs, but it's only because I miss the flurry of activity and the bright lights. Not because I think the suburbs are populated by fat, materialistic philistines who roll into their SUvs and stuff their faces at the Olive Garden or the Cheesecake Factory. And even if they were, who am I to judge them or think I'm inherently better than them for living in the city?

I think the point of the original NYT article was that many people would rather pay say $600K for a nice little house with a yard in a less-congested suburban area close to the city than for a studio or 1BR apartment in a prime part of NYC. And what is wrong with that? When every penny counts and you're starting a family, it makes perfect economic sense.

Posted by: guest at January 1, 2008 10:48 PM

To 10:48 - Beautifully said.

Posted by: guest at January 1, 2008 10:56 PM

10:24, Croton has rural areas, yes. I live on six acres and our neighbors all have 5 to 40 acres. The houses are mostly farmhouses from the 1700's and 1800's. There are about 15 houses on our 2 mile long road. I'm from the city, so it feels very rural to me.

I totally get 10:48's point. I used to love the constant hum of activity too. But now I love privacy and quiet and natural beauty--as long as it is close to a coffee house, gourmet food store, and a good thai restaurant.

Posted by: guest at January 2, 2008 12:12 AM

9:36, you wrote:

"I grew up in Manhattan. My teenage life consisted of lots of drinking and loads of drugs, hanging out on the street, and the occasional thrill of a party when someone's parents went away."

What's your attitude toward the teen years of your kids? Are you willing to let your kids have the same freedom you had?

I have two young boys and live in Brooklyn.

Posted by: guest at January 2, 2008 12:35 AM

What 9:36 described of Manhattan life for a teen, how is that different from the suburbs? I grew up in a wealthy, upscale small community, not a large urban city, and that's exactly how many teens spent all their time too. Bad parenting is bad parenting wherever you live.

Posted by: guest at January 2, 2008 8:52 AM

We are staying in Brooklyn for several years at least for sure. But I still like to hear tips about great towns outside the city.

I was excited to hear Croton is cool, and I looked at the Croton blog, and saw there are big problem with lots of vacant storefronts in Croton and a hunger for better amenities. So it doesn't sound as ideal as it was presented. It's an active and passionate community though, which does help. I was chuckling at the jokes on the Croton blog about yet-another-nail-salon because our neighborhood jokes about that too. How many nail salons does the world need?

Posted by: guest at January 2, 2008 9:11 AM

9:11, Croton does have vacant stores on one business street and too many nail salons--only 2 that I know of, but that's one too many. Croton has two town centers--Croton and Harmon. The problems mentioned above are in Harmon.

My comments were about the area, not just the town--we're witihin 20 minutes of all of the things I mentioned.

Posted by: guest at January 2, 2008 10:14 AM

There are two sides to every story.

My sister and her husband and 2 kids moved to Croton and HATED it.

She moved back to Manhattan within 12 months.

She said the services, amenities, restaurants and shops were severely lacking. Not even a gym at that time. (2 years ago)

Posted by: guest at January 2, 2008 10:51 AM

"we're witihin 20 minutes of all of the things I mentioned."

ummm...that's 20 miles give or take, no?

20 miles to get some coffee or some thai?????

hells to the no!

Posted by: guest at January 2, 2008 10:52 AM

All these posts about NYC's culture are so pompous and fake.

I live in Brooklyn and sure I have gone to all the major museums in NYC, a few plays (are musicals culture?), some art exhibits and the philharmonic about a dozen times. Hardly more then anyone living within 1hr of NYC couldnt easily top and I find that I have visited these types of attractions at least as much if not more then my urban peers. And whenever I went to these places the population is mostly tourists (often from the suburbs) with only a minority of 'city folk'.

There are 8M people in NYC and probably 350K in Brownstone Brooklyn - it is clear to me that very few people here are really living a more "cultured" life then their suburban counterparts (otherwise the museums et al would be overrun)- if you are defining culture as the arts.

I would venture to guess that suburban kids have been to most of NYC cultural attractions as much as city kids - since schools, camps and community groups in the tri-state area really do seem to offer tons of field trips.

Look I like the city better too but it is sad when people have to rely on exaggeration and fabrication to justify their positions.

Posted by: guest at January 2, 2008 11:37 AM

No, that's 3 to 10 miles.

Croton has 2 coffee shops, 2 gyms, and at least 10 restaurants right in town. There's a fabulous gourmet food store as well. One of the gyms has been there for years, so I'm not sure how your sister missed it. If you're okay going ten minutes away, you can find absolutely everything in terms of stores, restaurants, gyms, movies, music, and all the basic amenities.

I am sure there are people who can't make the transition from the city, but I've never known any. Everyone I know has been thrilled with the increbible ease of life here and the tremendous array of amenities in a short distance. For me, compared to trying to shop and shlep through Brooklyn, life here is a breeze.

Posted by: guest at January 2, 2008 11:47 AM

Croton stats:

The population was 7,606 at the 2000 census.

And you think that compares to New York City in any way, shape or form??

It's a ridiculous comparison.

Posted by: guest at January 2, 2008 12:01 PM

"life here is a breeze."

not really what i'm looking for till i retire. or die.

then i'll do it in italy. not in upstate new york.

Posted by: guest at January 2, 2008 12:02 PM

That's cool. To each his own.

And no, I never said it compared to NYC. It's a suburb--the whole point is to be able to enjoy the city without having to live in it and at the same time to live somewhere beautiful with immediate access to incredible hiking, biking, sailing, swimming and all the rest that naure has to offer.

Posted by: guest at Janua