A Look at Carroll Gardens Retail Rents

What's really interesting is that it actaully makes it appears that Carroll Gardens per se is not a "shopping destination", but rather the destination lies in the Boerum Hill section of Smith and the Cobble Hill section of Court stre, with a modest spill over into the northern edge of Carrol Gardens.

Posted by: guest at December 18, 2007 11:15 AM

do you have a link to the full report?

Posted by: guest at December 18, 2007 11:19 AM

do you have any data showing park slope's retail rents? would like to know what the rent is for 5th avenue in north park slope.

Posted by: guest at December 18, 2007 11:28 AM

Funny you should mention this today, Mr. B. We found out only this past weekend that our dry cleaner on the corner of Smith & Sackett is being forced to move because his rent has shot to up $8,000 a month, and he doesn't know whether he will be able to reopen in the neighborhood. This is the result of either greed by the new owner of the building or an attempt to pay off a mortgage that is way more than the owner could handle (although the new owner allegedly sold a suburban house for the same amount as the Smith St property so there is no mortgage...which leaves only the greed factor.) Another long-time dry cleaner on the corner of Court & Baltic is also being forced to close having lost his lease to an exorbitant increase in his rent. So -- as CG & CH are gradually losing all of their vital neighborhood services, where are we supposed to go? Bay Ridge? Bensonhurst? (Maybe we should. The cost of food out there is half of what we pay here.) There may be a few more vital small businesses left in the neighborhood, but how much longer will they stay before they're forced out? We certainly know they will not be replaced by like businesses. We've already lost shoemakers, greengrocers, butcher shops, a local supermarket and myriad other everyday businesses...to what? Chain drug stores, fast food establishments, banks and more banks, some useless boutiques, more restaurants...oh and yes, an increase in the rat population commensurate with the increase in restaurants. New and interesting businesses are one thing, and I welcome them, it adds interest to the neighborhood; but the pendulum has now swung too far in the wrong direction, and we're becoming a homogenized urban shopping mall. This is very sad, very sad indeed.

Posted by: guest at December 18, 2007 11:35 AM

"some useless boutiques"

well clearly with the amount of said boutiques opening they are useful to some people.

i'd argue that in fact they are more useful to most than the shoemakers and greengrocers as you suggest.

they just may not be useful to you.

businesses don't stay open with no customers.

nor do they close with tons of customers.

the mom and pops in brooklyn need to change with the times, if they are to survive.

try keeping hours where working new yorkers can actually visit them to start...

how many times i've missed my 7pm closing dry cleaners even racing from the office to pick something up.

if that means opening early, and taking a nap during the day and staying open till 8 or 9, that's what is necessary to compete in this world.

especially as chain stores like macy's and duane reade open 24 hours a day so that the 8.25 million people in this city with different schedules can find the time to shop.

Posted by: guest at December 18, 2007 11:58 AM

They are complete and utter lie liars. What they are trying to do is to get a bunch of exclusive listings and get rid of the folks who have existing leases who want to renew. Very sleazy. Nothing wrong with being greedy but call it what is is and don't lie in order to get the new rents you want. I challenge this agency to come forward with the data they used to prepare this information. I know they don't have it. I watch their site all the time. I know that they hardly ever do commercial leasing. So they don't have their own private data, there is no MLS so there is no shared data and there is no public data on leasing. Nice try folks. They are just trying to get in to this market.

Posted by: guest at December 18, 2007 12:00 PM

11:15 AM, yes, that the northern section of Smith street is boosted by by two other expensive gentrified neighborhoods is obvious. But to say that "Carroll Gardens per se is not a shopping destination" is just faulty logic.

Posted by: guest at December 18, 2007 12:04 PM

Where is Carroll Gardens?

Posted by: guest at December 18, 2007 12:11 PM

11:58, thank you for your response to 11:35. I'm sick of people crying about their loss of neighborhood amenities. This is supply and demand. Apparently we don't need one dry cleaner per block, and yes, they can thrive on side streets. Cell phone stores and banks don't open up to lose money and piss people off. They go there because there is a demand there. If there weren't, they'd lose money. Assuming chains are rational and know their business, I'm guessing they go where people want them. If you want to live in a planned community where you may only have one butcher, one dry cleaner, and one green grocer, move to Cuba.

Posted by: guest at December 18, 2007 12:16 PM

There are about thirty dry cleaners in the neighborhood. Who cares if one or two or twenty get priced out?

Posted by: guest at December 18, 2007 12:46 PM

Re: 11:58 and 12:16 - perhaps what 11:35 is lamenting is not just the loss of businesses which give the neighborhood a human face, but the loss of residents who value such businesses. Market uber alles types, who believe the dollar to be the best judge of all things, are turning much of this area into a place where history, diversity, and connection mean nothing.

The fact is that most of the restaurants and boutiques survive because they attract tons of out-of-neighborhood traffic. Because Carroll Gardens is a fairly low density neighborhood, amenities which cater to those who live there will never be able to compete with chains and businesses which draw people from out of the neighborhood.

That may be a great way to run a business, but it's a lousy way to make a neighborhood. And there's a huge middle ground between Cuba and the free-for-all we've got now (which of course is not really a free-for-all at all, but rather a pretty restrictive game rigged in favor of huge corporations. But that's another story.)

Posted by: guest at December 18, 2007 12:48 PM

I completely agree with 11:35. How many pairs of glasses, throw pillows, and expensive knick knacks can one person buy? We have already lost pharmacies, dry cleaners, and a grocery store.

The Eckerd/Rite Aid has become quite an unpleasant experience with the roving security following me and everyone else and the verbally abusive manager who on several occassions I have heard yell at customers to get out of "her" store and never come back. At least they replaced the cell phone yapping cashiers recently.

Carroll Gardens can stop the chains by giving their money to the mom and pops.

Posted by: guest at December 18, 2007 12:50 PM

12:00. I'm sure if you call them they would be happy to support you with comps.

Posted by: guest at December 18, 2007 12:54 PM

12:50:

NWH say fuck the security guards
he ain't a cop but he still want to act hard
On patrol at a goddamn convenience store
get in check you just a chump minimum wage whore
Just a slob in an ill fittin suit
got a little bit of power so you want to act a fool
Let some shit break out and what you gonna do
can't get back-up cause you don't have a crew

But it seems like damn near everytime I shop
I'm getting clocked by some wanna be cop
Follows me around like a magnet
eyes on my ass like a 2 bit faggot
Why it gotta be that I'm treated like a thief because I'm black
and wear a pager on my jeans

So it seems I'm gonna have to set the sucker straight
I turn around and say yo punk get out my face
An he wastes no time pointin to his fake badge
an real night stick that could make a nigga hemorrhage
He got cuffs some mace and a gat on his hip
he makes a move but Ice Cold don't trip
Cause I'm wearin my hat and the shit feels good
besides all that I'm straight out of the neighborhood

With flow I pull my AK-47
gonna send an acme rents punk cop straight to heaven
Oh hell who cares where the motherfucker go
he's dead on the ground by the time I let the trigger go

Fuck the security guards!

Posted by: guest at December 18, 2007 1:21 PM

Look to Seventh Ave in Park Slope if you want to see the near future of Smith St, Court St and Fifth Ave: lots and lots of empty storefronts.

Posted by: guest at December 18, 2007 1:41 PM

Most of the empty storefronts I've seen on 7th Avenue have been rented very recently, actually.

Maybe the landlords know it's time to be a little more flexible.

I've actually talked to two different people who own some pretty awesome stores elsewhere who are looking at 7th avenue hoping to make it more of a draw.

Will be interesting to see what happens.

The place at 7th and Union which sat vacant for a while has the for rent sign down and the building permits up.

Posted by: guest at December 18, 2007 1:45 PM

Some people find dry cleaners about as useless to a neighborhood as the aforementioned boutiques - to each his own. Everyone has their favorite shops and others have shops in their 'hood that they never frequent. It is too easy to generalize.
As for the study, it too is very generalized and inaccurate. There are a lot of vacant shopfronts on the southern end of Court and Smith Streets that would be lower cost per SF than what is seen in the map.

Posted by: guest at December 18, 2007 1:47 PM

Please explain to me how a dry cleaner on the corner of (smith and Sackett) can't afford a very substantial rent increase in 2008?

12yrs ago this spot was on a decidedly non white-collar street in a decidedly non-white collar area (east of court). Within this time the number of white-collar professionals (who use dry cleaning exponentially more), the number of new developments/units and level of income have all increased exponentially .

Look you can call the LL anything you want but it seems clear to me that no matter how you look at it the dry cleaner is either lazy or a very bad business person.

Posted by: guest at December 18, 2007 2:06 PM

There's a laundrymat/dry cleaner on Smith only a block or two from Sackett and I happen to know the owner owns the entire building and I believe the one next to it. There are also countless other small businesses on both Court St. and Smith St. where the operator is also the building's owner. That's one thing preventing Carroll Gardens from changing too rapidly.

The problem is when those owners decide to sell, realizing they can make more money renting to someone else than to run their own business. That's why Dunkin Donuts came in and replaced Leonardo's.

I also agree that those rent numbers are probably skewed. That Blockbuster storefront has been empty for a while now. With the market downturn, hopefully the change from small businesses to chains will slow down.

Posted by: guest at December 18, 2007 2:21 PM

good point, 2:06.

and for god's sake...every other business is open on sundays...why not a dry cleaner?

that's the day i most think about stuff like that.

they are losing business from me.

i'd rather give the dry clean in a box a try in the basement dryer than try to coordinate my schedule around the few hours a week most dry cleaners seem to be open.

Posted by: guest at December 18, 2007 2:23 PM

Uh, Smith Street south of 2nd PL? There's maybe 4 possible storefront possibilities between 2nd and 9th.

And Lower Court St, south of 4th? Hard to believe there's a demand for it, there are MANY empty storefronts, and many struggling businesses. Can't imaging those rents going anywhere but down.

Posted by: guest at December 18, 2007 2:55 PM

Here's my prediction. 12:00 is a older broker from a Mom and Pop shop bitter that their rent is going up and Massey is taking a lot of their business.

Posted by: guest at December 18, 2007 4:05 PM

Propertyshark had a map overlay with retail price per square foot.

Posted by: guest at December 18, 2007 4:59 PM

12:00 here. Not bitter or an older broker from a mom and pop. Thank you very much. But I think that the shell game that Massey Knakal is playing is going to catch up to them. Since they don't benefit that much from higher rents directly since they do little leasing in these areas (or for much of Brooklyn for that matter.) They are probably pushing these numbers to hype the potential sales prices of buildings they hope to get on the market in these areas. And when you lie you usually get caught. Now in Manhattan lying didn't matter is my guess since the commercial market both for sales and leasing raced forward. But hello, things are different in Brooklyn. Yes, in the very distant future Brooklyn could get swallowed up and turned in to a giant mall like object that looks exactly like Manhattan. But for now most of these stores are owner occupied or in terms of Gowanus have industrial zoning and very little retail on those streets. So what they heck is this agency doing? Lying. My guess is that Ken Freeman is on here defending his agency's sleazy tactics. And no, I don't care about dry cleaners either. Just would hate to see massive building turnover and then emptying of retail businesses in order for them to sit vacant and/or the building owner to go belly up since he's not getting the rents his agency told him he would get.

Posted by: guest at December 18, 2007 5:34 PM

I think every thing south on court and Smith of 2nd place is becoming really the spot to be, with frankies 457 and many other little stores moving in this will turn out to be the next it within the next few years

Posted by: guest at December 18, 2007 7:03 PM

I love carroll Gardens and cobble hill i don't care what you people say it is the best area in all of Brooklyn and no matter what i would not want to live anywhere else.

Posted by: guest at December 18, 2007 7:22 PM

5:34 PM, I think it's "sleazy" to throw out accusations of a firm without identifying yourself or identifying facts yourself. Did you bother to call the firm and ask for supporting facts or did you assume it was off base? Ken Freeman attached his name to a study. Who are you and what makes you believe the study is purposely majorly flawed? Real responsible.

Posted by: guest at December 18, 2007 9:57 PM

11:58 "nor do they close with tons of customers."

False.

A lot of businesses with a broad customer base close. I could have all the business in the world but if my rent is exorbitant, I'm not breaking even let alone making a profit. Being a business owner is not always about the money but the only person getting paid should NOT be the landlord.

Posted by: guest at December 19, 2007 12:36 AM

"Most of the empty storefronts I've seen on 7th Avenue have been rented very recently, actually."

That's not my experience of 7th. About the only new tenants I've seen have been banks and the expanding Brown Harris Stevens office. Still quite a few empty spaces all the way down to 9th Street, and even across 9th now that I think of it, since Nest flew the coop.

"Maybe the landlords know it's time to be a little more flexible."

One would hope they would notice that everything new is happening on Fifth and they need to compete. Of course with the rising prices, things are getting pushed ever southwards down 5th and even to the few areas on 4th Ave that have viable storefronts.

Posted by: guest at December 19, 2007 12:49 AM

Because despite what you may think, these prices are pretty closely related to the amount of foot traffic and spending power of the nabe. If these places can't support these rents they will come down.

Posted by: guest at December 19, 2007 9:12 AM

"Of course with the rising prices, things are getting pushed ever southwards down 5th and even to the few areas on 4th Ave that have viable storefronts."

I actually think the north area of 5th...near Bergen has been the hottest section of that strip. I can think of about 10 places that have openened in the past year in the named streets on 5th avenue...

Flight001, Maria's Restaurant, Tapas place, Canaille, Soula Shoe Store, Teddy, Chase Bank, Oko Frozen Yogurt,....the list goes on and on...

Lower 5th is fine, but up in the north is where the really great stuff is coming.

Posted by: guest at December 19, 2007 11:27 AM

"That's not my experience of 7th. About the only new tenants I've seen have been banks and the expanding Brown Harris Stevens office. Still quite a few empty spaces all the way down to 9th Street, and even across 9th now that I think of it, since Nest flew the coop."

The space on 7th between Berkeley and Union next to the Wine and Liquor Store was just rented a few weeks ago. I asked at Roma Pizza last night if he knew what it was going to be and he didn't, but he knew it had been rented. So pretty much every space now from Union north to Flatbush is rented...

Not sure about farther south.

Posted by: guest at December 19, 2007 11:29 AM