« Daily News: DOB Chief Buried Scarano's Blunders 303 Park Pl: If You Don't Like Old Houses, Don't Buy One! »
December 10, 2007
Why Townhouses Are Priced at a Discount
Between 1997 and 2006, townhouses in Manhattan appreciated at a slightly slower rate than condominiums, according to Radar Logic. The reason, according to The New York Times, is basically that a house is a hell of a lot more work than an apartment.
“You hate when you come home from a trip with a lot of luggage and have to drag it up the stairs, or you’re in a huge hurry to leave and you have to run back up to the third or fourth floor dressed up in high-heeled shoes because you’ve forgotten something,” said Barbara Fox, president of Fox Residential Group, who lived for two decades with her husband, James Freund, in a 7,000-square-foot town house on West 73rd Street near Central Park. “And you hate when you have to have repairs because there’s always got to be somebody there to answer the door.”
So, townhouse dwellers, what are your greatest gripes about non-doormaned, vertical living?
Town House Living: The Untold Story [NY Times]
Photo by Littlekim
Trackback Pings
TrackBack URL for this entry:
http://www.brownstoner.com/mte/mt-tb.cgi/3163
Comments
stairs, security, plumbing!
Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 9:36 AM
The torments to which we house owners subject ourselves, as depicted with horrifying clarity by the New York Times, make every day a LIVING HELL. Thank God the world may now know just what we go through, clawing our way through a primitive Hobbesian existence without supers or doormen. The descriptions of these sensitive Caucasian Manhattanites doing their own recycling...answering their own doorbells...struggling to find brutish lowly personages such as plumbers or handymen...and, most horrifyingly of all, cleaning up the offal of their fellow city dwellers with their own gloved hands...well, it gave me a fresh perspective on why we have been so crushed and broken in spirit all these years. We may be able to hold loud and glittering parties without neighborly disturbance, yes...but otherwise, dear God, WE LIVE LIKE MEDIEVAL PEASANTS. And you know what? I've had enough. We are going co-op shopping. We hear there's on on the market that Madonna couldn't get into--figured we'd start there, and begin the long road back to civilized life.
Excuse me...(shudder)...I must face, yet again, the bitter humiliation of putting out my garbage.
Posted by: Brenda from Flatbush at December 10, 2007 9:46 AM
Even though my legs tire walking up the stairs, I feel it is good exercise. There are more upkeep costs, of course, with owning a townhouse, lots of fliers and circulars (Ugh!) to pick up, leaves, branches and snow (depending on the weather and time of year)...but it is blissful not having someone walking over your head! It's so quiet sometimes at night that I can hear the resident mouse milling around.
TheGrammarLady.
Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 9:47 AM
I've had a bunch of town house sales this year. The number one reason my sellers gave for moving: Vertical living. It's not just forgetting your keys on the 4th floor. Living on several floors means going up and down all the time. Good for your health, but a pain.
Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 9:48 AM
Yes,
Brenda,thank you. I forgot. I have to take out the trash sometimes. Heavens!
Luckily, I also reduce our garbage and its smelliness by composting all the vegetable matter.
TGL
Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 9:50 AM
Honestly, there are too many priveleged people here. Reading that article was sad. Homeownership has major responsibilities, everywhere, not just in nyc.
Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 9:51 AM
right on, brenda.
i'm just glad that every spoiled, childish brat quoted in that NYT article was from Manhattan.
Posted by: chuck at December 10, 2007 9:51 AM
brenda -- that was perfect, thanks!
Posted by: z at December 10, 2007 9:57 AM
Brenda - very funny. And you are absolutely right.
Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 10:03 AM
Just this morning I had to take the elevator down to the basement of my co-op to drop off my recyclables and a large bag of trash that wouldn't fit down the chute. Then to make it worse, I had to walk up the steps once I got off the subway. Will this horror never end?
Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 10:03 AM
more and more, manhattan sounds like an alien planet. that said, they do have a point about in-house isloation: our friends lived upstairs from us but we still communicated mostly by cellphone, cuz really, who wants to trudge up all those stairs just to ask a quick question?
Posted by: Jimmy Legs at December 10, 2007 10:03 AM
The responsibilites are no big deal and I totally agree that complaining about taking out garbage is inane. But I do actually hate my 4 story house because of the isolation the article talked about. I hate having the kids bedrooms on a different floor than my bedroom and I hate having their play area on a different floor than the kitchen. I want a 2 story house with all the shared rooms on one level and all the bedrooms on another.
Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 10:04 AM
I disagree with Brenda. I rented a townhouse in West Chelsea (back when we called it "Chelsea .. but over near 10th") for many years and cleaning up the front was sometimes really too much. So much that I don't think it's fair to spell it out here. Really gross.
I own a townhouse in Brooklyn now and have none of these issues -- and I'm guessing you don't really have them either on a daily basis -- but I felt for the West Village guy.
Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 10:07 AM
well, I wasn't prepared for how much this house costs. there are too many times when a plumber/roofer/hvac guy can look up from his clipboard and say, "well it won't be less than 15k". I guess if you're really flush it's no big deal, but I'm not.
Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 10:10 AM
When I saw this article in the paper yesterday, I knew it would get picked up here - AND THEN all the defensive, thin-skinned huffing and puffing from 'townhouse' dwellers would ensue.
House and even brownstone apartment dwellers on this site LOVE to denegrate all other forms of shelter and raise to some sort of moral-virtue level the fact they live in these things. Underneath it is a fair bit of defensiveness and insecurity. It's not enough that I live in what I think is a 'wonderful home', I have to make sure everyone else knows it. And comments posted on this thread already demonstrate it. They love to dish it out but can't take an alternative view that doesn't programatically accept that living with three flights of stairs is the only way to go.
Please continue, I look forward to ready the rest of your responses.
Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 10:13 AM
SPOILED RICH WHITE FOLKS!
Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 10:16 AM
Im feeling exactly what Brenda expressed so perfectly. Shudder indeed.
Posted by: Mrs. Limestone at December 10, 2007 10:17 AM
I've just had a crazy idea-maybe some people prefer houses and some people prefer apartments-I mean, could that be possible!...
Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 10:21 AM
As one who's been roughing it through brownstone ownership for a couple of decades, I have to acknowledge that I was even deeper in the gutter before I bought...I was a tenant in a fifth floor walkup apartment in Manhattan that had NO doorman and NO elevator, and I had to take out MY OWN GARBAGE! So it was actually a step up to the horrors of brownstone living. But it was the Landlord from Hell who prompted my resolution to find a living situation where nobody other than Landmarks (no coop board, condo association, NOBODY) could threaten me, control me, or tell me what to do, as long as I respected my neighbors within the limits of the law. Stairs? Guess what: all those decades of running up and down 'em have kept me healthier than many of my horizontal-living contemporaries, who cringe at the idea of climbing when they visit. And I've saved so much money that I would otherwise have paid in rent, I may just put in an extension with an elevator if my legs should ever give out.
Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 10:21 AM
What an impressive vocabulary 9:46 AM has.
Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 10:27 AM
Ah yes, add to the many benefits of brownstone living that it is a healthier life style. Not only does God love you more when you live in a brownstone house, but you live longer and are healthier and happier.
Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 10:27 AM
I read somewhere that Graydon Carter has vomit on his stoop many times a week. YUCK! There are photographs of his dumping a bucket of water on it -- his house is really small and darling and no room for live-in help I guess. And how long can you leave it there while you call a guy?
Anyway, I do think maybe, just maybe, there are issues with Manhattan brownstoner ownership that brooklynites down deal with. OF course, that means you'll all still make fun ... I know that.
Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 10:31 AM
10:31: just because we may not understand an issue, doesn't mean we're not going to take firm opinions on it! this is brownstoner!
Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 10:39 AM
How about the horror of owning a unit in a condo or coop building and being at the mercy of the people who actually have enough time on their hands to be on the board? The same boards that let simple repairs become huge $10k+ assessments....
Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 10:41 AM
what a bunch of pansys. Who changes their diapers?
Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 10:44 AM
10:41 - I was about to bring up this point too. Also, there is so much hostility between neighbors in your average condo regarding noise, hallways and common areas, renovations etc. The amount of lawsuits going on is staggering. Having lived in a condo for years I can say - there is NO comparison. Privacy is everything.
Vertical living is great because I have control of what's happening on the floors above and below me! The kids have their own floor and so do the parents. VERY important. We all hang out together on the first floor every morning and evening. Families will hang out together if they want to, regardless of how the rooms are laid out.
Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 10:53 AM
Having moved this year from a Manhattan, high-rise, luxury co-op to a Brooklyn brownstone, I can say there are trade-offs, but on balance I'm very glad I moved. I miss my doorman and my super, but I don't miss the morons I served with on the board (not out of a sense of civic responsibility, but because I was afraid they'd destroy the value of my investment). I miss my river view, but I've quadrupled my living space (meaning I can house guests and throw big parties), and the backyard in the summer and the fireplaces in the winter more than make up for the lost river traffic. Plus, vertical living has dropped me two belt notches -- whoo-hoo!
Posted by: ProfRobert at December 10, 2007 10:56 AM
When I saw this in the Times, I knew we'd be having a field day today. Brenda - you said it best.
What a bunch of privileged whiners. If they really want something to complain about, try being homeless, or have your entire family live in a substandard rathole the size of their parlours. Then they'll interact with family. These people should check out the Neediest column in the same newspaper, and make a sizable donation, and thank whatever Higher Power they believe in that they have it so good, even if you have to hose your house down daily. At least they have choices.
Posted by: Montrose Morris at December 10, 2007 11:09 AM
Everyday I become more convinced that a habitual diet of the NY Times will make you think that every Manhattanite is a millionaire whiner. Either that's their demographic or those are their "writers".
Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 11:23 AM
I also thought the article was dumb b/c you would assume (as with most high end real estate) that the prices aren't rising as fast for townhouses and coops and condos b/c there is just less of a market of people with 5 million plus to spend on housing.
Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 11:29 AM
That story was full of whiny losers. They'll whine after they sell their houses and move into co-ops and condos, too. They would whine if they lived in HIcksville. (Actually, I would whine if I lived in Hicksville.)
I'm with ProfRobert at 10:56--brownstones are a lot more work, we give up some stuff to deal with them, but for a lot of people, it is worth it.
Also: Anybody fortunate enough to have *anyplace* decent to live in this town should shut their goddamned cakehole about how hard their lives are.
Posted by: Rehab at December 10, 2007 11:32 AM
this article really made me want to burmic.
funny, right before it came out, my mother (who lives in a different state) told me she has stopped reading the nyt because the non-news parts of the paper have started to feel like "life-styles of the rich & famous". for anyone who's ever worked their ass off to afford a shitty studio apt. on the 5th floor of a walk-up, this kind of article is a real insult.
Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 12:37 PM
As I was reading that article yesterday, I had to flip back to the front page to make sure I wasn't actually reading The Onion because it sure read like a parody.
I got a kick out of the woman who complained of the isolation her townhouse fostered as evidenced by the fact that her husband spent all his time cloistered in his study on a different floor. Sure sounds to me like her problem with her husband runs a lot deeper than her floor plan.
I am convinced by the comments from some here that there might be a fair amount more filth outside the front door in places like the West Village, but most of the whining had to do with truly inane inconveniences, which in my mind are more than made of for by the immense pleasures of townhouse ownership. Let me just say that I personally feel blessed and a tad bit guilty that I should have so much when millions of New Yorkers have real problems in terms of affording a decent place to live in the five boroughs.
Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 12:45 PM
Absolutely 12:37. Reading the NYT gives the illusion that everyone in NYC is rich, and that if you're not rich, you're doing something wrong. My parents, ex-New Yorkers now living in CA, cancelled their subscription last year because of the increasingly superficial and bullshit content of the soft-news filler.
Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 12:48 PM
I found the article to be very interesting. My husband is a born and bred New Yorker (long time apartment dweller) and I am from the midwest (house dweller) and we discuss the pros and cons of each until we are both blue in the face.
We just bought a townhouse and we are renovating it and he is already hopping mad that he actually might have to take out the trash (sort recycling) , change a light bulb, get his own dry cleaning, and call a plumber if we need one. I cannot tell you how strange it is for me as someone who was not coddled by a door man my whole life. I cannot convince him that outside of New York he would have a hard time surviving. "Dear? The toilet started running and overflowed and I almost drown because I did not know to jiggle the handle." He he he....
But seriously I thought the article was honest about the thoughts of a lot of city dwellers. Its painful but true.
Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 12:53 PM
Gawker, which always gives the NYT a hard time (and rightfully so) picked it up too:
http://tinyurl.com/2zqlrf
Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 12:53 PM
There is something to be said for living in a full service co-op (and I'm not talking about a walk-up flat)
Co-op living is to rowhouse living what a towncar is to a bicycle. I have everything done for me and I don't worry about the snow or the leaves or the trash. When a pipe leaks or a door creaks I leave a note for the super on my my way to work so that it can be fixed by the time I get home. Packages and dry cleaning are waiting for me by the doormen's desk when I get home. If I'm running late the porter takes the doggie for a walk. It is comfortable.
I grew up in a house, I worked my way up to a fancy co-op.
Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 1:23 PM
Actually the NY/B'klyn brownstone/townhouse was designed for live-in 'help'. If you can get the original plans (I have) you'll that it included a small apartment on the ground level for the 'help'. In fact a neighbor, a professional woman, rented an 'english basement' to a man who maintained the property as part of his rent. These great old houses accommodated all operational needs.
Today, of course, this planned space is too valuable for non-revenue producing purposes. The owner collects the money but does not plan for these unmet needs.
Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 1:26 PM
The Manhattan townhouse is a Ferrari tho, not a bicycle. You're old, with too much make-up and a silly fur coat in your lincoln towncar and I'm self-made and zippy in my Modena.
Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 1:27 PM
It's interesting, 1:23, that we've had the reverse experiences. I grew up in a Manhattan doorman building and got used to all those conveniences (and thus empathize with 12:53's beleagured husband!). When I was working crazy hours during the '90s, I don't think I could have managed a house. But now that I have more balance in my life, I feel that I've worked my way up to having a big (relatively) house instead of a two-bedroom co-op. But I understand and can't argue with anyone who feels the reverse.
Posted by: ProfRobert at December 10, 2007 1:35 PM
Having a big old Victorian house without servants is just crazy. How can you even deal with the dust bunnies, let alone the carpets, the beds, the windows, the bathrooms, the kitchen, the fireplaces, the sidewalk, the yard, the food, the trash, the deliveries,the bugs, etc, etc.
Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 1:41 PM
those damn stairs.... those damn stairs!
Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 1:45 PM
Apart from the stairs (which you either love or hate--and I could understand how someone could quickly change his or her mind about the charm of all that) this article could be about the responsibilities of home ownership ANYWHERE. It's a lot of work, no matter in which zip code you do it.
Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 2:04 PM
No, not really. Urban home owners, especially in NY, face issues that others do not. One of these is five or six flights of stairs. another is sanitation department rules and tickets, another is vagrants and just plain annoying people hanging around the stoop, and another is that it is just harder to keep a house clean in the city. Impossible almost. I have no problem with my house in the country, but the soot and grime and dust in the city is incredible.
No wonder people like to live high above it all.
Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 2:13 PM
"Having a big old Victorian house without servants is just crazy. How can you even deal with the ...."
Right--it's absolutely impossible, which is why no one reading this website does it :-)
Personally, I grew up in a pretty nice apartment building, but could not stand to live that way now.
Posted by: Bob Marvin at December 10, 2007 2:50 PM
I agree keeping a house clean in this city is next to impossible, but I doubt the people in this article know anything about vacuuming and dusting, either.
Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 3:06 PM
Bob Marvin,
You could not "stand" to live "that way" now.
My, my, aren't we precious!
What happens to people when they buy brownstones? Their brain turns to mush.
I have seen it happen to several of my friends. Suddenly they are in a kind of house stupor. They forget that they once had other interests. Boring.
Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 3:14 PM
I love living in my brownstone. I have wonderful tenants and after a grueling experience renovating this place, there is a kind of peace I feel about the whole thing. It IS a lot of work and it is forcing me to be more organized than I ever needed to be.
It is also very expensive to maintain. I have a day job so there are only so many hours in a day to do things so I need help.
There are also so many things I don't know how to do, it is humbling, but I am learning.
I used to own a big old house which was 75 years old and that was a piece of cake compared to this brownstone. But it is great. I am very grateful it is working out.
Posted by: donatella at December 10, 2007 4:28 PM
My favorite quote from the Times article: “Moving into a town house, I was prepared to clean up after Mother Nature but not human nature,” said Dr. Lautin, who, with the aid of latex gloves, soap, a broom and a garden hose, regularly removes nearly every human substance save blood from the front areas of the town house he shares with his wife, Jackie, and their two children, Sabrina, 9, and Alex, 3.
What a wimp! In Brooklyn, we remove every human substance INCLUDING blood. This guy is a doctor wearing latex gloves, and he won't clean up the blood? What's this city coming to?
Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 4:32 PM
Bless you Brenda, for saying it best!
Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 5:11 PM
Sorting the recycling, carting out the trash, plowing the sidewalk etc are a very, very, very small price to pay compared to the thrill of owning a piece of history; the pleasure of having a backyard; the delight at being able to accomodate friends and family; and the joy of being forever free of the crazies that lurk on every coop board.
When I swept the sidewalk and cleaned up my street pit yesterday afternoon, I also caught up with 4 of my neighbors. The cost of community? Priceless!
Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 5:34 PM
The couple in the NYT article could have still lived in a townhouse without having to carry their luggage up the stairs. They could have just gotten the butler to do it. That is after the chauffeur drops them off curbside in front of the townhouse. They could then send the cook to do all of the shopping, have the nanny carry their kids and have the housekeeping staff clean. Of course, they would have to keep a carpenter/handyman on staff to handle all of the maintenance issues that may arise. A butcher, a baker and a candlestick maker could be contracted on an as-needed basis.
Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 5:35 PM
Right 3:14--not even with a super, a doorman, a concierge, or a personal attendant to wipe my ass--you call it being "precious"--I call it being responsible for myself :-)
Posted by: Bob Marvin at December 10, 2007 5:50 PM
It'll be interesting to see how many brownstones come on the market in 2 years, when the novelty wears off for all the recent coop and condo-bred buyers.
Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 6:15 PM
I'm sorry to give my two-cents this late in a thread again. I had the third entry today but felt another go might help add something to the story.
Living in a house a yard allows me to grow roses and other flowers and native plants/trees as well as fruit. I made my own preserves this fall from the yard: homemade AND homegrown.
Our past life in 10028 in a doorman building with all the frills did not afford this precious and wonderful feature, a connetion to the land.
TheGrammarLady
Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 6:18 PM
It’s a bit of an adjustment to maintain a big old house after looking after the smaller spaces most of us inhabited pre brownstone ownership where your responsibility stopped at the sheetrock, if it even extended that far. For me, it was a transition in every way cited in the article. On hiring and supervising plumbers, electricians, etc, I think it is legitimately hard for most working folks to comprehend an entire segment of the service industry that feels quite comfortable not showing up for designated appointments. It is also a bit of a shocker to own a house you take great pride in, but nonetheless rack up department of sanitation tickets because someone sat on your steps, drank their coffee and threw their coffee cup into your gutter after you’d already cleaned the gutter and then departed for work. All that being said, the people quoted for the article sounded like a bunch of whiny adolescents, which I have about as much patience for as plumbers who can’t make it to my house on time. I love my place, and included in that, I love the ritual of being aware of when the city picks up recycling and garbage and putting it out on the curb. It makes me feel like a grown up, which is a sensation I think a large portion of New Yorker spend most of their time trying to avoid. So let them live in condos!
Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 6:21 PM
TheGrammarLady here. I just had a chance to look at the article and the online slide show. Very funny! Did anyone notice the ragged carpet on the stairs with the gentleman getting the trash together?
And the insipidness of the holiday party with the waiter?
And that posed image of the young man sweeping up in front of the house! Very funny! Looks so awkward and posed. Giving an old lady a laugh today!
Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 7:06 PM
This article was a FAKE.
The NY Times makes all their ad revenues in the real estate section from CONDO BROKERS and developers. Of course the NY Times is going to do all they can to stop people from wanting houses more than condos, with all those condo buildings sitting around empty and unsold.
It was just ridiculous. And this is coming from me, a person who finds owning a 100 year old house a pain in the ass at times, and who totally understands why people prefer an apartment. And even I was able to see through this article as an advertisement for condos. The true headline for this post on Brownstoner should have been, "Condo developers go negative and take an idea from the Karl Rove playbook".
I only know about 3 people wealthy enough to own one-family townhouses in Manhattan and trust me, all these people can afford full time domestic help in their homes. People in $5-10 million houses generally can do that. The townhouse owners who are doing it all by themselves are those of us here in Brooklyn. As for the stairs and the 4 stories, there are plenty 2-story houses in Brooklyn and they offer plenty space. We have one and I wouldn't want anything bigger. The 3 sets of stairs I go up and down now make my ass and thighs so much more toned. I went down a pant size, in fact. What's to complain about that?
Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 11:24 PM
i moved from owning a 2 story house to a condo, and i have been continually surprised at how great it is to have a really wonderful group of neighbors. it probably has to do with like minded people moving into a new bldg., etc.. but my neighbors before were never anyone who i'd be friends with. it's great if you have kids who can play together. also, our bldg is really really quiet. i never hear the people above us. have to say some of this is just luck.
Posted by: guest at December 11, 2007 12:17 AM
Thank you 11:24 PM for some insights.
BTW, 12:17AM, the converse side of what you wrote: we live in a house and know our neighbors VERY well. We have friends and family living in buildings where they barely interact with (and sometimes "hate) the neighbors...or just don't know the neighbors.
Then again, we have friends who have a townhouse in Cobble Hill who are in a battle with their neighbors...and a couple in FG who are in a similar war of the houses...
It all "just depends" I guess.
Posted by: guest at December 11, 2007 11:24 AM
Post a comment
Please be patient while your comment is published. It may take a moment.