303 Park Pl: If You Don't Like Old Houses, Don't Buy One!

Busybodies, it's none of your business.

Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 10:09 AM

it sure is a shame, though....hard to understand where people are coming from when they strip the historic beauty out of a house around here....after all, wanting modern is no crime but there are plenty of new-construction options that fit that bill.

Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 10:13 AM

Yes, more of this should happen. I love when this kind of shit gets under Brownstoner's skin (and all of his disciples that post on this site). It's like someone drown some puppies in a bag, and now we get can all indignant and morally outraged about it. Please continue to gut these horribly out of date interiors and bring them into the present.

Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 10:16 AM

Sounds like it time to organize a lynching mob. What do you say we get some baseball bats and educate them about architectual appreciation? I'll bring the torches if someone else can bring the plaster moldings.

Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 10:18 AM

I'd do the same thing. I like the exterior of the buildings but not the old, rotting, 100 layers of paint thats 3 inches thick, rotting old electrical wires, all the fixtures that are painted over and over, peeling paint, rotting wood, crumbling floors and stairs, yeah, hate me because I bought the building and want to live in it.

Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 10:18 AM

Gut it, gut it, gut it!!!!

Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 10:28 AM

Gosh Mr. Brownstoner, I disagree completely! Where are you going to get all your arch salvage if not from old buildings that were badly maintained and desperately need to be updated. A modern interior/gorgeous brownstone exterior mix is really amazing, and a perfectly good way to live. It's what we are doing now and LOVE it!

Plus, if you want to live in a certain neighborhood, your choices are limited to the housing stock available. If small cramped rooms with frosting on the walls and ceiling and dark, dingy wood everywhere else aren't your style - you gotta make some changes.

Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 10:28 AM

No, 10:28. You must live in dark, oppressive, serious-wood interiors. You must appreciate every 'detail' that fine Victorian craftsmen lovingly put there (they put them there for a reason, no?). You must imbibe the tone and feel of a more civilized, graceful and genteel age - the decades between 1875 and 1900.

You must do these things - OR YOU CANNOT OWN AND DWELL IN ONE OF OUR BROWNSTONES!

Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 10:37 AM

these type of interiors steadily dissappearing makes your own interior more and more valuable.

Now - can anyone told me why the city ripped up the huge cobblestoned plaza at the top of Manhattan avenue in greenpoint and "improved" it by laying tarmac?

Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 10:43 AM

And to respond to 10:13: yes, there are plenty of modern new-construction options, but many, many of them are crap in terms of structural (and aesthetic) quality. Also, if you want an entire house (rather than apt.) in certain neighborhoods, there are no new construction options.

Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 10:46 AM

Restoring a historic home (if you go all the way) costs and extreme amount of money and time. Its hard to find contractors that are qualified in this type of work and when you do- it costs. What if you have a banister missing a few posts- easy to replace? No- you have to get them custom turned. You have 3 custom light fixtures but the floor has 5 light fixtures? Do you get replicas for the other 2?

Why buy this if you're not going to restore? For the space- for the lot- and the buiding itself could be in great shape. I'm always surprised when I walk in to a brownstone that's been tastefully updated with modern conveniences. Fact is- I agree with the above. Not really our business and if some are really peeved- you should find other like minded people, invest your own money and buy places like this, restore and then sell it.

Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 10:53 AM

The trend now among the highly-moneyed is to rip out all the historic finishes and put in open-plan minimalist interiors . It really does not work well in most rowhouses, you wonder why these people do not buy a loft instead, but they want something "different" and "fresh" their designers smell money and are more than willing to take them for a ride. The shame is that real historic stuff gets destroyed. But most designers have absolutely no appreciation of other people's work even if it is over a hundred years old.

Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 10:57 AM

But, but, how could this house sell *above* asking price when it's so close to the eeeeeeeevil Atlantic Yards? I thought everything in that vicinity was supposed to be worthless.

Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 10:58 AM

I think this is really sad. I'm going nuts trying to find a house with as much of this beautiful woodwork and original detail as possible, and they're rare. If you do want a modern interior, buy something else that's already been stripped--there's tons of those houses. It shows zero appreciation for the craftsmanship that went into creating these interiors. They might have been cookie cutter houses then, but they were still built with much more skill and care than today. I think it's really tragic. You all suck.

Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 10:59 AM

this is borderline stalking, mr b

live and let live

Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 10:59 AM

"Why buy this if you're not going to restore?"

Because brownstones look nicer from the outside than they do to live in from the inside. Brownstone exterior with updated interior. Why is that hard to understand?

Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 11:01 AM

z -- @1.65M for a 3 story 2353 ft home(closing on 9/17 *after* the subprime mess hit) that's $701/sq. foot; valuing the larger 4 story homes on Park and Sterling at at $2.8M and higher

Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 11:03 AM

But this makes no sense. At any point in time, there are many houses on the market that are already stripped of detail, AND are generally discounted relative to others because of that. Why not just buy one of those, where 1/2 the work is already done for you, than proceed to completely strip another house?

Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 11:06 AM

Craigslist post has been removed.

Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 11:14 AM

I can't help myself so I'm going to say it again (you're making me do it Mr. B. because of your unbelievable hubris - much like the time you thought the developers were sending you death threats) -

You have demonstrated by showing a) your person in public and b) the interior of your house and choices you've made, that you are in absolutely no position to discuss anyone elses choice of interior/exterior design or personal style. If I bought your brownstone, I would have to rip all the disgusting choices that you have made out of the place - like those revolting Mr. Slim a/c units and covers for them that you are so proud of as well as your "beautifully" conceived areas for displayng your "vinyl" collection - yetch!

I personally like detail and kept lots of it in my house while trying to modernize around it but I would never have the guts to say to anyone "why would you buy and old house and..."

Next time I'm leaving you a dead squirrel...

Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 11:19 AM

Hey Mr. Brownstoner, maybe the owners of the house would like to chat with you about their reasons for stripping the details.

How about posting YOUR address so they can find you?

Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 11:20 AM

Rehab, when you are ready to sell, let me know. I'd like to buy your house - so I can gut it.

Thanks!

Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 11:20 AM

Mr.B, I agree with you 110%. I have no problem with a stripped down modern loft look if there is no detail left, but that's like buying an expensive, richly decorated cake and then scraping off all of the icing. The owner of this house paid a premium for all of the intact detail, why not work with it, or then find a place that is a blank slate?

It is possible to decorate or renovate in a minimalist style and still keep some of the elements of the original home. This mixture of the old and new is fresh, and interesting. People with really ancient homes in Paris, Rome, London, and all over Europe, do it all the time, to great success. Too bad they don't look over there for inspiration. Magazines are everywhere.

What a shame. The only redeeming thing is that they are selling the details, instead of dumping it. That's enough to call off the mob, but they still get a hearty "boo!" from me.

Preservationista

Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 11:23 AM

In ten years there is going to be big money to be made in recreating the Victorian detail in brownstones. These things are cyclical, we are currently in an anti-Victorian phase.

Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 11:26 AM

it was a craiglsits post - its alrwady public! What a bunch of tards on this site.

Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 11:29 AM

We should bring back Victorian fashion too.

Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 11:35 AM

I live near the house and it not a carved up boarding house kind of building where restoration would be difficult. It needs some TLC but it is in no way beyond restoring - as you can see from the pictures. There are many houses that are better candidates for a gut and I will be truly sorry to see this turned into a cliched white walled minimalist home with the inevitable modern staircase (there was one posted here a few days ago.), harsh bright recessed lighting and the rest of the 'modern features'. It is as cliched as any 50's or Victorian style. I think it is close to a crime to see these people are doing.

Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 11:38 AM

I hear the guy who bout the house is president of Garden State Brickface...

Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 12:16 PM

ugh, too bad there can be no threads on Brownstoner anymore that aren't full of obnoxious comments back and forth.

Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 12:29 PM

12:29. Or at least lets limit the obnoxious comments to posts on 4th avenue development, condos, and developers. Since they are the ones that truly deserve the scorn.

Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 12:31 PM

12:29--but then it wouldn't be entertaining.

Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 12:36 PM

Old houses, have tons of problems which equate to high maintainence cost.

Updating them while keeping all of the 'wonderful' original details intact is wildly expensive (to say nothing of if it suits the homeowners taste).

I think homeowners should be responsible with the facades of older historic homes and have their absolut way with the interior.

Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 1:24 PM

What is so wildly expensive about leaving it be? Change the lights, whatever, but why not leave the mouldings, door and window frames, wainscoting etc? Paint 'em, if you don't like natural wood, at least the next owner will have them, if they want to strip.

Why is it the most richly detailed houses get bought by these types of people who want to gut it, while those who would love to have that kind of detail can't find these houses? I would only sell my house to someone who obviously loved every inch of the period detail in it. I owe it to the house. There are plenty of those folks around.

Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 1:33 PM

Just for the record: This is barely "Victorian" but more Edwardian and since Victoria and Edward were never American monarchs there is more appropriate nomenclature out there for the style of these houses.

I would not call our 1850's house Victorian for example. It is Italinate coming out of the federal style. Early Italinate very much show the romantic era influence with a big not to rococo revival. This look died out entirely by the time the house on this thread was built.

BTW, to the one who mentioned people update interiors in Paris, please remember that there is not that great number of "ancient" residential buildings in Paris. Only certain areas have retained buildings from the 17th and 18th centuries. Most of the buildings are from the mid-1800's and after.

Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 1:42 PM

When we sold our house, the new buyers ripped out eight original Victorian fireplaces, plus every possible period detail--every shard of stained glass, every bit of fretwork, the original staircase, the dado rails, the picture rails, tiles, etc. Of course it was their house and they could do what they wanted, but we still felt terribly betrayed--still do, and it's 2-1/2 years later. They turned it into a modern all-white loft-like place, beautiful in its own way, but still. . . one wishes they could have found a dump to do this to.

Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 1:42 PM

Sorry TYPOS:

Just for the record: This is barely "Victorian" but more Edwardian and since Victoria and Edward were never American monarchs there is more appropriate nomenclature out there for the styles of these houses.

I would not call our 1850's house Victorian for example. It is Italinate coming out of the federal style. Early Italinate very much shows the romantic era influence with a big nod to rococo revival. This look died out entirely by the time the house on this thread was built.

BTW, to the one who mentioned people update interiors in Paris, please remember that there is not that great number of "ancient" residential buildings in Paris. Only certain areas have retained buildings from the 17th and 18th centuries. Most of the buildings are from the mid-1800's and after.

Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 1:48 PM

"Old houses, have tons of problems which equate to high maintainence cost.

Updating them while keeping all of the 'wonderful' original details intact is wildly expensive (to say nothing of if it suits the homeowners taste)."

I don't know where you are coming from. Even Home Depot sells ceiling medallions and egg and dart molding. No one is "restoring" these houses to original condition. That would mean taking out central heating and cooking on a wood stove. But to keep the floors walls, doors, mantels etc. and renovate in the spirit of the building in no more expensive than ripping all the detail out. These people paid approx 1.5M for the home to begin with Please don't use this specious argument with respect to renovating brownstones.

Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 2:01 PM

Bottom line, you didn't buy the house so mind your own business.

Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 3:10 PM

and since when are message boards for people who want to mind their own business??

Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 3:27 PM

Bottom line: It's their house, they can do what they want to it.

Bottom line, version 2.0: Houses with this much historic detail are, as many posters have pointed out, increasingly rare. We can't do anything about it, but it is heartbreaking to see this happen.

Bottom line, Sopranos edition: There's a very tight block association on Park Place. The new owners won't win themselves any friends with their neighbors after word of this spreads.

Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 5:25 PM

5:25 re bottom line #3 - I live there and you are quite right.

Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 5:55 PM

Oh shit!

Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 7:31 PM

hey - i am not a fan of old world at all, but i agree with brownstoner here. i do think it's hysterical actually to buy this and dump the insides. you can get great new condos with this space at this price point in many areas and even better areas.

fyi - if you want to understand how well your condo building was built, just get in an inspector. i did this with our condo, and the inspector raved about the building quality but pointed out some issues with the finishes. i got the sponsor to correct those problems for free before moving in.

i care way more about my actual interior and layout and neighborhood than having a brownstone exterior, and have zero time (or patience, or the money to rent and pay a mortgage), so i went for all new.

in this case, the owners probably did like the outside and the hood, but wanted a new interior.

in NYC, you don't need everyone to buy your place anyway, just one buyer, and in the end, they are usually out there.

Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 8:06 PM

About historic detail in general, I only get worked up about saving it if it's special. If it's exactly like the other 5 million early 1900's houses' banisters in Brooklyn then who cares. Sorry. However, I can't stand no detail at all. Even in a spectacular modern glass house or condo that should feel dramatic, I feel bored. The only thing to counter the dullness of that is to have huge, important art on the walls. It's why I like Neutra or some of the smaller case study houses, because the houses are intimate not cold and sterile, and closets, built-ins and kitchen cabinets are hand crafted custom wood which is warm. People think modern means a machine-edge or machine-finish and that's just false.

Posted by: guest at December 10, 2007 11:40 PM

11:40.. so true. i bought a modern condo, but added significant built-ins using interesting woods, added wool runners, custom furniture and paid a decorator to do the paint colors, wallpaper choices on several walls along with handmade window treatments, and it feels pretty unique now. decorating well is always significant no matter what the exterior is... in general many lofts and condos have bigger, more open spaces and then you have the ability to customize it.

Posted by: guest at December 11, 2007 12:27 AM

I am an architect working on a townhouse on the upper West Side, 5-story. The Owner bought it, dripping with detail. The house needed much repair structurally after many years of neglect. We sripped it of everything...brought it down to its skeleton. Did repairs to the sturcture, adding an elevator, new stairs, brought it into the 21st century with new plumbing, elec. wiring, etc. and are now recreating all the details of the 'old world charm' that you all talk about. We are creating a classical home that looks better than it could have been restored with all the modern amenities.

Not everybody stripped these homes to create modern bare spaces...some strip them to to update and recreate it...which costs a heck of alot more.

Posted by: guest at December 11, 2007 12:34 AM

I am an architect working on a townhouse on the upper West Side, 5-story. The Owner bought it, dripping with detail. The house needed much repair structurally after many years of neglect. We sripped it of everything...brought it down to its skeleton. Did repairs to the sturcture, adding an elevator, new stairs, brought it into the 21st century with new plumbing, elec. wiring, etc. and are now recreating all the details of the 'old world charm' that you all talk about. We are creating a classical home that looks better than it could have been restored with all the modern amenities.

Not everybody stripped these homes to create modern bare spaces...some strip them to to update and recreate it...which costs a heck of alot more.

Posted by: guest at December 11, 2007 12:34 AM

I am a big fan of this site but this post crosses a line for me.
We've no idea why these owners are selling these things, and I find it rude and intrusive to include their address with this post. Why should anyone care so much? It doesn't matter to me whether these folks posted their address on Craigslist, or that these items are rare. It's really none of our business, and Brownstoner is jumping to several conclusions here.
Or maybe the larger issue for me is, after having recently settled my own real estate issues for the foreseeable future, that I am realizing that I don't have much else in common with the core readers of this blog.

Posted by: guest at December 11, 2007 9:45 AM

I guess if you don't realize why people are upset you are right and you don't have much in common with readers of this blog.

Posted by: guest at December 11, 2007 10:21 AM

What these new owners are doing is just so sad, and Mr. Brownstoner has every right to call them out on it.

Why the heck buy this house in the first place? Their so-called "renovation" is completely non-sensical. Why not buy a shell?

This shows that they are, at a minimum, poor business-people.

Although in my humble opinion they are, more directly, ignorant fools.

Posted by: guest at December 11, 2007 10:44 PM

I have a feeling some of the anti-Brownstoner posts are just multiple postings by the same person. You can look at the first few and see they are posted sometimes a minute apart.

It's lame to see someone do this kind of thing to try to lend credence to an argument, which they themselves know is hard to defend and very unpopular.

It's pretty simple: If you are buying a house of this age, it's your responsibility to fix it up, or if you can't or don't want to, buy somewhere else. Period. Owning a historically valuable house like this comes with responsibilities and it's a crime to see some yahoos or nouveau-rich people with poor taste come in an irrepairably damage a house by tearing all this stuff out and "modernizing" it. If you have the millions to dump on a house, buy a modern apartment or house in the suburbs.

Posted by: guest at December 12, 2007 10:16 AM

To the architect @ 12:34:
you write "The Owner bought it, dripping with detail. The house needed much repair structurally after many years of neglect. We sripped it of everything...brought it down to its skeleton."

If you did indeed strip all the original dripping detail you describe, that is ridiculous. Maybe you're just unclearly describing the process, but restoration is one thing, stripping and recreating from new is another. Restoration is much harder and costlier, and is what these old houses "dripping in detail" deserve. Not some uber-rich UWS trophy house makeover that has zero respect for history.

Posted by: guest at December 12, 2007 11:02 AM

10:16 - Your comments sound snobby and more than a bit fascistic. And I love old buildings. Lighten up. IT'S NOT YOUR HOUSE.

Posted by: guest at December 13, 2007 8:57 PM