Should the City’s Million-Tree Plan Get Pruned?

They're public sidewalks. Nobody's "forcing" a tree on a property owner, because the city owns that property.

Hijack: if this is the case, how do we get some trees planted on Fourth Avenue, where all the new condos are going up? They may not be able to plant trees in the median, but they can plant them on the sidewalks--there are a few already there. So why don't the condo builders get the city to plant the trees that they always show in their renderings? It wouldn't even cost them anything!

Posted by: guest at November 7, 2007 10:07 AM

Why is this an either/or thing? Yes, of course, care for trees we have and continue to plant more -- and then care for those. We need it for the general welfare of the city's population. Trees are important. And as 10:07 points out, what "property owners"? This is city property. "Property owners" have no rights. It belongs to all of us. Related: they also can't paint a parking space in front of their brownstone for their own use. As Gob would say, "Come ON!"

Posted by: guest at November 7, 2007 10:17 AM

If we are going to make this city livable for the next century - reducing the heat island effect and the off-gasing of vehicles, having green for carbon sequestration, making more permeable surfaces - we are going to have to alter our streetscapes. If we need to force some people, so be it.

Posted by: guest at November 7, 2007 10:18 AM

If we are going to make this city livable for the next century - reducing the heat island effect and the off-gasing of vehicles, having green for carbon sequestration, making more permeable surfaces - we are going to have to alter our streetscapes. If we need to force some people, so be it.

Posted by: guest at November 7, 2007 10:19 AM

People can complain about anything, huh? Planting trees is "scary"? Give me a break. I'd be curious to know what "legitimate reason" someone would have for opposing the tree. And I'm pretty sure the City has never required the consent of the private property owner across the sidewalk from a tree to approve its placement. Can't people ever just say, "Gee, that's nice," and move on?

Posted by: guest at November 7, 2007 10:23 AM

We need trees but it is true, Parks is not taking of existing trees. Also, there can be real sidewalk problems. Ideally, trees should be replaced over time...not happening...and now that the City step out of the sidewalk liability...

Trees are great but the are millions of acres of city roofs that could use greening. We need green roofs to work in tandem with a tree'd city.

FG/TGL

Posted by: guest at November 7, 2007 10:25 AM

there are far far greater issues that need to be face in Carroll Gardens

Posted by: guest at November 7, 2007 10:29 AM

can we please have a filter option to avoid Gabby posts?

Posted by: guest at November 7, 2007 10:38 AM

Was Carroll Gardens always full of pretentious, self-involved, self-righteous NIMBYs? Or is this a relatively new thing? Perhaps Carroll Gardens would like to turn itself into a gated community, where they can regulate the "scary" trees to their hearts' content.

Posted by: guest at November 7, 2007 10:39 AM

How about taking care of the trees on much-lauded South Portland Avenue? Are they sick? Have the beetles attacked them? The leaves on those famous trees are brown and sparse even in the middle of summer. I've never understood how that block is the "best block" with those sickly looking, out-of-control trees. It makes the block very dark and depressing. Something is wrong with those trees.

Posted by: guest at November 7, 2007 10:40 AM

Craig Hammerman = moron

Posted by: guest at November 7, 2007 10:41 AM

The trees in Brooklyn have become public toilets for dogs!

Posted by: guest at November 7, 2007 10:46 AM

Just to clear up some misconceptions: in many cities including NY, traditional practice has been that a property owner's permission is requested when a city seeks to cut a sidewalk and plant a tree if a tee pit is not already existent.

The City will plant one of any number of trees off a list according to availability. We have not been able to request specific tree species but apparently, working with the City arborists, they are willing to consider planting moderate height trees instead of very tall ones as we have requested. Now that the tree pits are in place, we are welcome to pay privately to have our own chosen tree varieties planted but since we are a not-for-profit we've opted to take whatever Parks plants.

I am a member of a group that leases a city property. We actually requested a number of tree pits to be cut into the sidewalk. We already had one in which the tree had died. Next door, the private business which has a wide front did not want trees and no tree pits were cut. The business does have some legit reasons for not wanting trees but that is another story.

New buildings going up typically break up the exiting sidewalk which will get patchy repairs during construction. These properties get completely new sidewalks with molded in tree pits (i.e. not cut in) and the owners usually put in trees of their choice which are usually lower maintenance (less or finer leaf litter) and less likely to heave the sidewalks over time.

FG/TGL

Posted by: guest at November 7, 2007 10:49 AM

Homeowner absolutely not responsible for limbs that fall from city-planted trees. Yes, you have to keep sidewalks clean and safe. That is part of your social contract as a homeowner in most of the US.

And in NY, the maintance of the sidewalk is more complicated than that. We just had ours replaced and city paid in full.

Posted by: guest at November 7, 2007 10:50 AM

just get some damn trees in the dirt already.

Posted by: guest at November 7, 2007 10:51 AM

who/what is a FG/TGL?

Posted by: guest at November 7, 2007 10:53 AM

10:46 - if you prefer they can use your stoop, just post your address

Thanks

Posted by: guest at November 7, 2007 11:08 AM

But doesn't a tree GROW in Brooklyn?

Posted by: guest at November 7, 2007 11:11 AM

10:50: Would you please explain "we just had ours replaced and city paid in full." I'm curious as to how or why the city paid for replacement of your sidewalk. Thanks.

Posted by: guest at November 7, 2007 11:13 AM

Speaking as someone who is raking up sticks and leaves today, I hate trees and think they should all be chopped down.

Posted by: guest at November 7, 2007 11:18 AM

10:50 and sure. The sidewalks in front of our home had been damaged by city trees. We had city come, they were evaluated (by what standard, I don't know), and were replaced. For free and within 20 days. Sometimes the city shocks me.

Posted by: guest at November 7, 2007 11:24 AM

one reasons why someone might not want a tree planted is that the roots of the tree invariably find there way into the sewer main and sometimes even into the foundation.

Posted by: guest at November 7, 2007 11:26 AM

Thousands of street trees die every year. Most do not live that long. So many of the new trees will into empty, in some cases long-empty tree pits. A lot of people do not like trees. I have an uncle who is tree-phobic, takes all kinds.
Parks should do more to prune street trees but neighborhood groups and block associations should also pitch in, after all it our windshields that the dead tree limbs will crash down on.

Posted by: guest at November 7, 2007 11:35 AM

"Tree-phobic"?!? Give me a break.
Time for an science lesson, children. . . if a certain percentage of the trees die, that is a reason to plant MORE of them, not LESS.
This should be obvious to all but the smallest-minded (or most "tree-phobic") of us!

Posted by: guest at November 7, 2007 11:41 AM

Yes, South Portland is lugubrious...but is has been all along. Plane trees can look lousy all the time. Not always the best except in ideal locations. Those trees have been dropping leaves starting in August year-after-year for a decade. Plane trees shed bark…that part is normal.

Yes, 10:50 AM, the City will pay for sidewalk replacement/repairs in front of 1- and 2-family homes. They come by and give your sidewalk issue a grade based on the severity of sidewalk heaving, tree roots, etc. The grade determines the timeframe for the sidewalk repair/replacement. With 3-family houses and up, you pay for the work.

FortGreener/TheGrammarLady

Posted by: guest at November 7, 2007 11:47 AM

10:50 again. I think you're wrong. It has to be Class 1 and that's 1-3-family. Our place is 3-family.

Posted by: guest at November 7, 2007 11:53 AM

London Plane trees are awful.
Messy and half-dead looking even when in good health. Female ginkoes are another
must-miss tree.
There were few if any street trees in the nineteenth century. The folks who built the brownstones were not big on street trees.

Posted by: guest at November 7, 2007 11:58 AM

11:53,

Call 311 and confirm. I was told that the city-paid sidewalk redo is for 1- and 2-family homes. Eligibility is not according to Class type. Remember, 1- and 2-family homes are dealt with differently in many ways than buildings with three or more units. Two-family home landlords are considered homeowners "renting out a part of their home" for example. Also, 1- and 2-family homes do not require a fire escape or sprinkler system retrofit...just some of the differences.

Again, call 311 and find out more...and get back this thread to confirm any info if you do this today.

Thanks,
FG/TGL

Posted by: guest at November 7, 2007 12:03 PM

10:50, I think you're wrong about the liability issue as well. In 2003, they amended the law so that owners are responsible if anyone falls due to sidewalk issues or tree limbs and homeowners are expected to carry liability insurance for the sidewalk. The city will repair the sidewalk caused by damage from a tree, but the liability for any injuries is ultimately with the owner. I'm not so lucky, I've been waiting for 1 1/2 years for the city to repair the sidewalk due to tree roots.

Posted by: guest at November 7, 2007 12:08 PM

11:58,
Correct. Sidewalk planted trees were rather unheard of in most of developing NYC in the 19th Century. In fact, SIDEWALKS could be rare too. Some built up residential areas did not get sidewalks until the 1930's and some parts of NYC do not have sidewalks at all. Paving wasn't universal (actually still is not 100%) for a long time (there is an unpaved named lane, more like a private access road, that supposedly was a Dutch-era cow lane).

Regarding backyard trees...I'm all for them. I have been sorry these last few years to see so many FG houses change hands and so many big trees getting cut down in yards while new decks and gas grills have gone in...

FG/TGL

Posted by: guest at November 7, 2007 12:15 PM

"The sidewalks in front of our home had been damaged by city trees."

The process worked for you, it appears, in large part because the city acknowledged their damage and did something about it. However on my tree-lined block in Crown Heights, the problem is some of the trees are so old and large the roots are cracking and LIFTING the sidewalk. My next-door neighbor's tree, directly in front of his house, is particularly bad. He's asked the city if he can cut the roots down (they are screwing up his sewer line in addition to the sidewalk). But the city won't let him, because the tree is supposedly city property. The city has also declined thus far to do the work itself. Here we have a homeowner who want to MAINTAIN (not cut down) a tree and the city won't help. Our block association has levied official complaints about this situation, and participated in a city program to REPORT overgrown roots, etc. and NOTHING has happened. I and my neighbors on the block do love trees - they add wonderful character, fresh air and shade to our block - but the city ABSOULTELY has a responsibility, in my opinion, to maintain existent trees before planting thousands more. And they can start on my block.

Posted by: guest at November 7, 2007 12:15 PM

The city came through Boerum Hill earlier this year and trimmed all the street trees...they look great.

Posted by: guest at November 7, 2007 12:15 PM

I don't think the city will repair the sidewalk of a private residence. C'mon, you own a gazillion dollar brownstone, why should the tax payer pay for the repair of your sidewalk? The city will send someone to prune the tree roots if YOU are re-doing your sidewalk. You can get in trouble if you cut the roots yourself. They will send you to tree jail.
But you really have to open your own wallet to pay for the repair of your sidewalk. Sidewalks are funny. They technically belong to the city but they are your finacial liability.
Sorry.

Posted by: guest at November 7, 2007 12:16 PM

"I don't think the city will repair the sidewalk of a private residence. C'mon, you own a gazillion dollar brownstone, why should the tax payer pay for the repair of your sidewalk?"

Read my post (12:15). My neighbor OFFERED to pay to have the work done, and he'll STILL pay, but the city said he couldn't touch the trees. READ, man (or woman)!

Posted by: guest at November 7, 2007 12:21 PM

Yes, when Bloomberg removed the City's liability for sidewalk injuries and placed on property owners, the insurance companies had yet another tool trying to up rates and/or pull out of their NYC policies. Insurance companies, made hay threatening non-renewing/dropping policyholders for small sidewalk height difference that went ignored in 2000. Annoying.

Tree roots can be very damaging. Not only do they heave sidewalks but also the brownstone curbing at the property line. This heaving can completely warp and bend wrought iron. There's a good example of this at the southwest corner of Lafayette and Cumberland where the sidewalk is very narrow. You can't get a stroller through very easily even.

FG/TGL

Posted by: guest at November 7, 2007 12:24 PM

The sidewalk law basically makes commerical owners liable for sidewalk-related accidents, but homeowners (I believe it is 1-2-3 family homes) are exempt from liability. At the same time, you are supposed to maintain your sidewalk -- I think they can ticket you etc.

If a tree on city property is causing damage to your sidewalk, the city will fix the sidewalk. This can take a long time. The appropriate forms etc are on the City's website.

I have a tree in front of my house that I am convinced is succumbing to maple wilt. I called 311 to see if there was anything I could do to help the tree, or if Parks does anything about this, but was told that all they do is (1) prune, or (2) remove a dead tree.

Posted by: guest at November 7, 2007 12:29 PM

Trees are important but what's more trees without more cowbells?? I bet nobody bothered to the hard questions.

Posted by: guest at November 7, 2007 12:35 PM

Whinge, whinge, whinge. I'm a brownstone owner too. You buy the house, you buy the responsibility. Don't like the deal, NYC is full of fine rentals for you.

Posted by: guest at November 7, 2007 12:45 PM

10:50: I'm 11:13. Thanks for your response. That's good info to know.

Posted by: guest at November 7, 2007 12:45 PM

Dear 12:21
your 12:15 post was a little long-winded so I just skimmed, sorry, best to keep these things short.
If your contractor tells parks they are re-doing the sidewalk parks will send someone to trim the roots. They are good about this.
Tell your neighbor to tell the contractor to call.

Posted by: guest at November 7, 2007 12:47 PM

I can't believe there's this much roar about some freakin trees.

Just plant some, keep your sidewalks in check and shut it. Sorry if they aren't all pruned into perfectly shaped specimans from your Home and Garden Magazines.

If people got as worked up about the war as they do trees, milfs and strollers, maybe this world wouldn't be such a shitshow.

Posted by: guest at November 7, 2007 12:51 PM

i do think that the condo buildings should all add trees. you can plant them yourself if you own the property. ask a landscaper about how to coordinate with the city. my gardener told me once that it costs about $1200 to plant a tree in the front. not really sure tho.

the sponsor of our new condo building did add trees in front before we moved in. they are growing really well. i have also 3 in my backyard that i put in myself (have a 1st floor condo). in addition, i added flower boxes to my front windows.

i think that landscaping really changes the way new property is viewed, and helps integrate new buildings into the neighborhood.

if you live in a new condo building, urge your board to add trees if not their already. it is a small expenses compared to the value they will add to your investment.

Posted by: guest at November 7, 2007 12:54 PM

12:47,

I prefer to write long when I have something of substance to share. If you're not into reading, then ignore my posts. Otherwise, thanks. I'll tell my neighbor to give it a try.

12:15, 12:21

Posted by: guest at November 7, 2007 1:32 PM

I called the NY Dept. of Forestry - Brooklyn Forestry about a "dangerous limb" .. a massive branch about to fall on the sidewalk. They did NOTHING. I even got a inspection report number from them.

I had to shell out $400 to prune the tree myself and even get a permit! Sucked ... but I would have been the one who got taken to court.

I fully support more trees but we need better maintenance of existing trees as well (and a more responsive Parks Dept).

Posted by: guest at November 7, 2007 2:30 PM

10:50 here again.

FG/TGR: "Again, call 311 and find out more...and get back this thread to confirm any info if you do this today."

You SOUND like The Grammar Lady. LOL

Here's your info.
http://www.nycgovparks.org/sub_your_park/trees_greenstreets/trees_sidewalks/trees_sidewalks.html

You need to do more than dial 311 for info for all programs in the city; You need to do research. I can assure you I own a 3-family home and the city paid for the replacement of damaged sidewalks. You can say I'm wrong, but I'm not. I hope this is helpful to you.

Posted by: guest at November 7, 2007 2:41 PM

A Million Trees Grows in New York! I Love it!

Posted by: guest at November 7, 2007 3:02 PM

I'm shocked by the "call 311" or "I called 311 and nothing happened" posts.

Do people really think the city is that well managed? It's not. You need to write a letter, find out who the decision-makers are, etc.

We had a branch I thought was dangerous. I walked into my local assemblyperson's office and complained, followed up with a letter. Got an e-mail acknowledging letter and later an e-mail following up on issue. Tree was trimmed a couple weeks later.

Call 311. Ha ha ha ha ha

Posted by: guest at November 7, 2007 3:13 PM

It is quite unusual that the City would repair a private sidewalk unless there is a violation on it in which case the city will pay for the work and then charge it, plus "supervision" costs, to the building owner.
Sometimes the city decides to replace and repave whole stretches of streets, like what happened on Smith street 8 years ago. That is a capital project and a different story.
Really and truly property owners are responsible for repairs to their sidewalk. All the city will do is fine you if you do not.
The city will plant trees, will rarely prune them, but will trim roots for new sidewalks.
They also have new standards for tree pits that are very large compared to the old ones.

Posted by: guest at November 7, 2007 4:10 PM

there are no such things are private sidewalks

Posted by: guest at November 7, 2007 4:21 PM

I mean, there is such a thing as private sidewalks. But not in the city -- not what we're talking about.

And of course the city repairs. All the time. It's just that sidewalks last a long time and they often get replaced after city work to city pipes underneath. I've had the sidewalk repaired 3x in 6 years that way.

Posted by: guest at November 7, 2007 4:24 PM

sidewalks are paid for by homeowners.

Posted by: guest at November 7, 2007 5:21 PM

If the sidewalk is damaged by a city tree - city will repair it and pay for it. Part of the Trees & Sidewalk program. If repairs are of a neccessity from something else - homeowner pays.

Posted by: guest at November 7, 2007 5:48 PM

I love how 10:50 explains how his/her sidewalk was repaired and people call him/her a liar basically. He/she posts the program and STILL people say it's not true.

IT"S TRUE!

Posted by: guest at November 7, 2007 6:03 PM

Yes, Parks will schedule to come trim the tree roots if you coordinate with them and have a contractor who will break up and remove the sidewalk the day before. Of course, there is a waiting list. You can't call today and Parks come two days later...unless you know someone ;-)
Remember, Parks will not trim tree roots past a certain point in autumn. You can't get them to come out to do the work now.

Thanks to the one who posted the webpage. I remember having visited it (GrammarLadyness and all...I actually use a computer not just the phone…311! I'm on e-mail too...Go, Granny. Go!). So yes, 1-, 2- AND 3-family homes are eligible for sidewalk repairs by the City. Keep in mind, as I mentioned above, if you request this service, the alacrity without they undertake the repairs will be based on a grade your sidewalk gets. The worse the damage/sidewalk heaving, the higher your score and, with luck, the faster you'll get the new sidewalk poured.

By the way, the only time I’ve seen the guys out with the cherry-picker pruning trees on our surrounding blocks has been to remove branches that might block street lights spread pattern. There are some massive dead branches hanging on as well as lots of broken branches and sticks caught and tangled in crotches.

FG/TGL

Posted by: guest at November 7, 2007 7:03 PM

12:15

"The city came through Boerum Hill earlier this year and trimmed all the street trees...they look great."

There is a big difference between trimming the branches and trimming/maintaining the roots. I too live in Crown Heights with a huge tree in front of the 2-family home that I own. The City trims the brances every year but they haven't ONCE taken any notes on my horribly heaved and pitted sidewalk. I paid to have the pitted part replaced but can't replace the heaved part because that would involve trimming the roots before I can dig up repave. The City hasn't been helpful in this regard.

Sandy

Added: I will try calling/emailing 311 but ask why should I have to? The City doesn't wait for me to call to (over)charge me for prop taxes and water bills. But they trim my tree every year and can't notice that the sidewalk looks like hell?!

Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 1:47 AM