Open House Picks: Houses

first one is carrol gardens

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 1:25 PM

I went to the Windsor Terrace open house last week. What a letdown. There is no mention in the ad that it is a COMPLETE fixer-upper. It's a total wreck on the inside. You should bring a flashlight if you go, as there is no electricity. The garage has a shared driveway. There is no yard.

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 1:31 PM

The orange tile roof on the Crown Heights house looks totally out of place, horrible actually.

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 1:36 PM

Rehab: Brower Park is nice, but it and the surrounding area can be dangerous at night (muggings, shootings, etc.)

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 1:39 PM

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

without park slope listings, there won't too many comments this week.

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 1:41 PM

Where the hell is Ryerson Street???

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 1:49 PM

The crown heights house is awesome. The tile does not look at of place when you see it in person. And HELLO the area is fine.. There were four people shot on union square two days ago.

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 1:58 PM

Park place pad is cool. One of the houses on the house tour is on that block. It's niiiiicceee. Too rich for my blood though.

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 2:00 PM

If you look at the mapped location of the Crown Heights turret house from corcoran's website - it looks like it is 2 blocks from Grand Army Plaza. What's up with that?

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 2:02 PM

What's up with that is FALSE ADVERTISING! Flat-out BROKER LIES. And then brokers wonder why people mistrust them and hate their guts.

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 2:08 PM

The corner 2nd Place house looks like its 5 ft wide.

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 2:09 PM

it's cause no one would be caught dead in the location where the house REALLY is.

pun intended.

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 2:10 PM

The Park Place house is a beauty. Too bad it's only a mile east of the Corcoran map location. They know full well what they're doing. Liars.

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 2:14 PM

just looking at the windsor terrace listing depresses me. you'd need to add at least another $300K to turn that into a livable house. then, that much money in a place to be in windsor terrace?? is there someone out there who will pay that price? is the market that nuts?

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 2:17 PM

Brower park isnt bad during the day.

but ive only been there during the day. I dont know if anyone with a couple million is gonna bother buying that.

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 2:21 PM

Can you imagine someone who is actually planning to go to the Park Place open house?

Show up at Vanderbilt and Underhill....then when you realize it's not the correct place, start walking EAST on Park Place.

My god...by the time I got past Washington I'd never want to come back to Brooklyn ever again.

GOOOOOOD marketing, Corcoran.

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 2:22 PM

The Clinton Hill Place looks ok.

If you don't mind having to sift through the dead bodies that look to be in there.

My god...what a depressing looking house.

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 2:25 PM

2:17--you'd have to put A LOT more than $300K to make the Windsor Terrace house livable. It is such a horrible wreck on the inside. Water and electric have been shut off for a while now. There are gaping holes in the top floor ceiling. It is a mess on the inside. Looks like it would need a minimum of $600-$700K to make it livable. And that's the low end of the range, I think.

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 2:29 PM

I went to the 56 2nd place one last weekend. 1. It is very narrow. 2. It needs a lot of work. I get the sense it is an estate sale, the ground flood apartment was "vacant" but was full of furniture, crosses, and and stuff to tend to a sick person, plus a "get well soon" balloon. I gather the person did not get well, and now the building is being sold. It has four tiny apartments. But, on the positive side, there is a two-car garage, the building is on a corner, and I imagine that there is a lot of FAR to work with here. With a lot of work, this place could be a great two family or it could be developed.

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 2:35 PM

i saw the WT house and think it can be re-done for <500K...out of my budget but for those who dont mind renovation, you can get nice large 2fam, custom designed, close to the park,train, shops with parking for ~1.6...its a nice part of WT, great for families..i think it will sell

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 2:40 PM

"custom designed, close to the park,train, shops with parking for ~1.6"

or you can get the same thing in park slope for the same amount of money with better schools, better park access, better trains and better shopping.

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 2:46 PM

if crown heights had floors of brownstones for sale around 200,000 people would buy them.

at least I would.

but I have yet to see anything decent.

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 2:53 PM

carroll gardens as a whole is way overpriced

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 2:54 PM

The Crown Heights house is awesome! Anyone who can't see that is trying awful hard not to see it. CrownGardener, never you mind the haters. Their leaking jealousy is such a pitiful thing.

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 2:56 PM

Let's hope another developer doesn't pick up the Carroll Gardens place and try to build up, like what happened to that other once beautiful Carroll Gardens, place street, corner lot.

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 2:56 PM

2:46:

better park access??? better than walking half a block? prettier fencing?

batter trains??? you mean the same F train??

i'll grant you better shops, and better school ...but please provide a link for a fully renovated 2 fam in park slope for 1.6M please

thanks

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 2:56 PM

2:56 PM re: Carroll Gardens. I agree with you completely, however, unlike that other corner lot, this one is not particularly attractive inside or out, so they would not really be ruining it.

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 3:02 PM

" if crown heights had floors of brownstones for sale around 200,000 people would buy them. "

try 2.

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 3:03 PM

Brooklyn as a whole is way over priced.

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 3:04 PM

Oh boy, here we go. God forbid you leave Park Slope out of the open house picks lest they start trashing every other neighborhood.

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 3:09 PM

Brower park is nice in fact the proximity to the park makes the park pl house very attractive. I am a newcomer to crown heights, recently moved from Manhattan with family, and we simply love it. You do need a car...The Brooklynian recently had a thread on why people love Crown Heights - from people who actually live there (see below)

http://www.brooklynian.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=38596

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 3:11 PM

76 Ryerson would be between Park and Myrtle. It's the block that Walt Whitman grew up on, behind Pratt near KFC (if that's still there). Can't believe the price. I bought the place I used to have on Ryerson for $38K in Sept. 1994. It was inhabited by squatters at the time but we got them all out for less than $500. I know the neighbors appreciated the fact that we'd moved the heroin dealers off the block but $1.250M for a place closer to Park than the place we had?

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 3:14 PM

I don't support neighborhoods that require using a vehicle.

Thanks anyway, 3:11.

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 3:18 PM

Why is it that whenever anyone notes that Crown Heights has a high crime rate they are branded a "hater" or labelled as "pitiful" or "jealous"? The OP simply asked about the safety of the area and people responded, IMO, honestly.

Re: the absurd Union Square comment above, the 77th precinct, which encompasses Brower Park, is statistically more violent than the 13th, which encompasses Union Square (all facts are year to date):

Murders: 77th (14), 13th (1)
Robberies: 77th (285), 13th (189)
Fel. Assault: 77th (288), 13th (173)

So, it's not jealousy or hating. Crown Heights has a bona fide problem with violent crime. If you disagree, then provide some verifiable evidence to the contrary.

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 3:18 PM

same shit, different day.

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 3:23 PM

I also went to 2nd place Open House last week and I thought the broker was on crack to ask that price. There is basically no backyard, it's narrow, and I don't even think it's being delivered vacant - plus, the tenants I saw seemed mighty cozy there. The inside has zero charm as it has been all chopped up and has an industrial-feeling common stairwell that frankly felt very depressing to me. I also sense that this a project for a developer, but will one take this on now in this market?

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 3:28 PM

"I also sense that this a project for a developer, but will one take this on now in this market?"

Nope. I see no other development going on these days.

Especially not in Brooklyn.

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 3:31 PM

Year-to-date crime stats for Manhattan south ONLY:

Murder: 13
Robbery: 1450
Fel assault 1180

http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloads/pdf/crime_statistics/cspbms.pdf

Manhattan has a bona fide problem with violent crime.

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 3:32 PM

It makes people feel better to put down areas such as CH BS CH... Many people on here think they are better than other people... VERY SHALLOW folks on this site really sad...

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 3:34 PM

How many people live in that Manhattan South zone??

Kinda have to take that into account, dimwit.

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 3:37 PM

theres no park slope house to bitch about so everyone has to focus on other stuff.

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 3:40 PM

There are zero murders in Antarctica.

But no one lives there.

So I guess it's not dangerous.

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 3:41 PM

Hey Brownstoner,
I'm down to my last million here, you know with this subprime meltdown and all that. Can you please post some properties that I can purchase without having to be in the top 1% of income levels?
Thanks a bunch.

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 3:42 PM

sadly 3:40...this stuff happens every time.

and the "bitching" you are referring to, is typically out of envy and jealousy.

sad but true.

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 3:42 PM

Why is it that whenever anyone notes that Crown Heights has a high crime rate they are branded a "hater" or labeled as "pitiful" or "jealous"?

Because most of them are HATERS, or PITIFUL or JEALOUS. Violent crimes are committed all over Brooklyn, all over NYC and all over the country every day. Pointing out Crown Heights' "problem with violent crime" sound suspiciously like profiling, a particularly insidious form of racism. Are some areas worse than others? Yes, of course. But you can always find some area that's worse or better no matter what neighborhood you're talking about.

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 3:43 PM

ummmm.....he's been posting them on saturdays, 3:42.

they are called apartments.

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 3:44 PM

Here's a little helpful tip for you, 3:43.

Crown Heights is MORE dangerous than most areas of NYC and the country. That's why people raise the issue.

If it weren't so dangerous, don't you think more people would want to live there and prices would be higher?

Or you just think the homes are less expensive because of some grand plot out to GET Crown Heights?

Crown Heights is not one of the safer neighbrohoods in NYC. Why don't you do something to try to fix it instead of spreading lies about how safe it is.

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 3:46 PM

In that price bracket, I don't get why anyone would chose a woodframe Victorian with questionable exterior renovations in Crown Heights over a similar Victorian in Ditmas Park/Victorian Flatbush.

If a fabulous stone townhouse is what you're after, that's another story, of course.

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 3:56 PM

For these prices, I'd just get a smaller place in Park Dope.

None of these neighborhoods deserve these prices...yet.

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 3:58 PM

"Crown Heights is not one of the safer neighbrohoods in NYC. Why don't you do something to try to fix it instead of spreading lies about how safe it is."

Yawn. What "lies" are you referring to? I didn't say CH was the less dangerous than "most of NYC" (which is quite a presumptive statement considering there are worse parts of the city in each borough). Secondly, as you can see from the home above, CH prices are pretty high. Maybe not as high as Brooklyn Heights, but high. People are clearly buying homes in the area, so some people DO want to live there. Maybe not EVERYONE, but some people.

Also, I didn't say "Crown Heights is one of the safer neighborhoods in the city." I said people who repeatedly focus on this aspect sound to me like profilers. I stand by my comments.

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 3:59 PM

That is EXACTLY what I was thinking, 3:56. Thank you.

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 3:59 PM

What these homes should cost, given the location, services, neighborhoods, quality of schools, train access, etc.

Carroll Gardens: 1.5
Crown Heights: 800K
Windsor Terrace: 750K
Clinton Hill: 650K

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 4:02 PM

North Crown heights is not dangerous.....I have lived there 18 months....walked around at 2am in a drunken stupor.....and have never felt threatened or in danger.....

Unfortunately until there is a starbucks on every corner and a stroller on every sidewalk, some people will always feel threatened......

Of course when that happens houses will cost $2 million....

Kind of a starbucks arbitrage situation now though.

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 4:06 PM

No one feels threatened or in danger when they're in a drunken stupor...duh.

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 4:09 PM

wow 4:02
you must be living in the 90s

and u rank Crown Heights over Windsor Terrace
funny

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 4:11 PM

Nope. I much prefer Windsor Terrace over Crown Heights, 4:11.

I just think that that particular WT home is lackluster and the Crown Heights one is pretty special.

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 4:16 PM

"walked around at 2am in a drunken stupor"

That's just plain idiotic.

In Crown Heights, especially.

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 4:17 PM

For the 3:42 buyer on a budget. But I suppose you'll complain about the neighborhood, right?

http://realestate.nytimes.com/sales/detail/2942-C21BL20172

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 4:19 PM

Rather pointless to talk about what a house 'should' cost, don't you think? If you're referring to comps, fine. But if you're not, those numbers have come straight out of your ass. When was the last time a 3200 sq ft townhouse sold for $650K in Clinton Hill?

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 4:20 PM

650K for that clinton hill house would be a rip off.

the neighborhood around there sucks, the house looks like a total gut job oh and did i mention the neighborhood sucks?

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 4:26 PM

I live in Manhattan and I'm looking to make the move to Brooklyn in the next year. Where are all these neighborhoods? Are they anywhere near Park Slope?

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 4:46 PM

Ha. Ha ha ha ha ha.

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 4:50 PM

i hate manhattan and everyone in it.

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 4:55 PM

Well, Corcoran must love this site. The ugly Crown Heights house above and yesterday's HOTD (40 St. Marks) are the two most viewed Corcoran properties.

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 4:56 PM

1094 Park in Crown Heights looks like a NJ-trash Sopranos-style house on the inside.

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 4:57 PM

i saw the carroll gardens place last weekend.
it's got to be the darkest corner house i've even seen with every curtain and shade down (you'd think the brokers would open them up to show how nice have windows would be). the tenants were home during th e open house (not that that's a problem) but it sort of breaks your heart when the 2 80+ year old tenants are cooking lunch in their kitchen. the other unit was so dirty and dissgusting. i think i ranted somewhere else on this blog about how i got a good look at their dirty underwear right in the middle of the floor. and this is with 3 brokers showing it! no one can just cruise though quickly and kick dirty clothes under a bed or something? i feel like it wasn't Vita that showed it though as i think
they are genrally better about those kinds of things. anyway totally overpriced...gorgeous block though!

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 4:59 PM

Lovely story, MM, thanks. That said, the house is still wildly overpriced.

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 5:10 PM

Crown Heights is not dangerous. Crown Heights in the Albany projects, yes but not in the neighborhood spots.This guy is a flamer and does this every time there is a house posted in Bed-stuy or Prospect Lefferts Garden. He's mad he's still renting. So for the record, guest at November 2, 2007 3:18 PM
DO YOU RENT OR OWN AND IN WHAT NEIGHBORHOOD?

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 5:39 PM

yeah I love that park place house. Walk by it and admire it.

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 5:40 PM

Crown Heights sales:
996 Saint Johns Place Cross St. B/w Brooklyn Avenue and New York Ave. sold for $793k. It's small but in great condition. Is next to funeral parlor.

738 Lincoln: Sold on 8/9/2007 for $744,000. Had nice parlor floor but needed all new kitchens and baths.

1300 Carroll Street: One family sold for $799k and needed gut reno

1219 Bergen street sold for $790- 4-stories, 17 feet wide, needs gut reno

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 5:58 PM

996 St. Johns was a Brownstoner House of the Day. It sold for 93k ABOVE ask.

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 6:02 PM

The wt house has been on the market for almost a year, and was originally listed when the house next door was for sale - both owned by the same owner. The house next door was renovated, some corners cut, but fairly nice. It was listed at approx 200k more than 1609, which, imho, is a ~500k reno. Fast forward to the current listing - just reduced from a couple of weeks ago, but still higher than it was listed for last winter; new agency, which btw, has a few house listings that are at least a year old, and whose prices have gone up, down, up, down, etc. When you get a chance, look up the last sale on the wt house, just for laughs - the current owner picked it up at an estate sale for a lot less, and is looking to flip and make a very nice return. How much return do you all think it is worth? Oh, by the way, the last broker claimed that the reno could be done for 150k....not!

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 6:10 PM

The Crown Heights house is simply beautiful. I might come to Brooklyn this weekend

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 6:10 PM

oh please do 6:10, please do.

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 6:20 PM

The carroll Gardens listing is pretty nice considering it is in one of the best locations in NYC and on a wonderful block. To the guy saying ZZZZZZZZZZZ no park slope listings you must realize Park slope is only one of 8 brownstone nabs and thats all it is one of them, no better

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 6:37 PM

Montrose Morris:

I always look for your comments about Crown Heights, and I was sure that you would weigh in on the Park Place house. This is another CH beauty, and I remember it vaguely from my childhood as standing among other private houses around Brower Park where my friends lived. I'm happy to hear the CH Historic District may be extended in this direction, because there are many architecturally prime blocks in the vicinity.

Keep up your vigilance and beat back the CH naysayers. As I wrote in an earlier post to you (re. Pacific Street mansion), when my mother grew up in Park Slope during the 20's (on a "name" street, no less) CH was considered superior to her neighborhood. No doubt CH is gaining on PS -- and with good reasons: this house, others like it, and guardians like you, among them.

Nostalgic on Park Avenue

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 6:42 PM

I think the marathon will keep most people away from the open houses this Sunday.

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 6:57 PM

1.8 million for a 4 story brownstone on a place street in Carroll Gardens is as cheap as it gets. The block is gorgeous and that counts for a lot. If this were a nice brownstone in good condition it would be going for 2.5 million easy. This will sell. Unfortunately, as a four family, it will probably go to a developer who will try to build up in order to support this price.

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 7:04 PM

Don't know how a developer buys the Carroll Gardens house unless he plans to duplex the apartments. Is anyone going to buy a single floor? They are very small apartments.

This seems like a buy for someone who has alot of cash and likes the location and garage (two huge selling points). You have to totally gut it and turn it into a 1 family, or maybe a triplex with garden rental. I've seen some of those narrower houses work that way, but to do that to this one would definitely require a complete gut renovation. I guess the good news is that there are no nice details to save here anyway. But the final results could be nice and modern. Oh yes, the other big drawback is that there's no yard. You could build a deck, however. Do people pay a premium for a garage even it means they have no garden?

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 9:49 PM

7:04 sounds like a broker or an owner in CH. I agree that it will probably go to a developer - no family owner would want to touch it I suspect. But as for the person who implied that developers are all over Bklyn these days (since I asked if a developer would take this on in this market), my point was precisely that there are already *so* many developers who are mid-construction since they all started projects when were riding the recent boom. Now that things are starting to soften (and might soften significantly in the near/mid-term future), will developers really bite, since there are a lot of new condos on the market - and honestly, I doubt you get turn this into the rare kind of "old, pre-war charm" kind of condo that would set this bldg apart from all those other new developments. The building is in too crummy shape, too chopped up, to recoup that kind of brownstone charm buyers in these neighborhoods tend to like.

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 9:51 PM

carroll Gardens no matter what these days is a buy if you want to make money. Wake up people The buyers want good areas and this is one of them.

Posted by: guest at November 2, 2007 10:30 PM

10:30 - BROKER ALERT! BROKER ALERT!

"Carroll Gardens no matter what these days is a buy if you want to make money"

What an idiot.

Doesn't the price matter?

Posted by: guest at November 3, 2007 8:52 AM

10:30pm -- I live in Carroll Gardens and love the neighborhood, but poster above is correct, the price matters. I have noticed that one person constantly posts these over the top Carroll Gardens posts about how great it is (at least, anytime there's a CG mention, a post like 10:30's goes up). It's really tiresome. I'm also pleased at how much my property value has increased in the last 5 years, but these kind of posts that offer no reasonable opinion, but simply a knee-jerk reaction to the neighborhood, do more harm than good. The Carroll Gardens house here is overpriced, period. This is now the 4th open house at least. If it was such a steal, someone would have grabbed it up immediately.

Posted by: guest at November 3, 2007 9:56 AM

It's not even worth responding to brokers. Plus, they can be so goddamn annoying at open houses. Too bad we can't just replace them with robots, or houseplants.

Posted by: guest at November 3, 2007 10:35 AM

Why are people so retarded? They actually go around thinking they can buy a house in Brooklyn for under $1 million or a little over, AND have the following:

1. fabulous amenities
2. fabulous public schools
3. no crime whatsoever

#3 doesn't exist anywhere, and if you have #1 and #2 you have Park Slope and as everyone knows, you're talking about paying $2.5 million on upwards for a house in Park Slope. If it's in PS 321 try $3.5 million on up. If you DO have that kind of money, sure, go ahead and declare you'd never lower yourself buy in Crown Heights, PLG, Bed Stuy. You have the right to do so. But since I'd bet good money none of you have that kind of money, shut up. Stop pretending to be the player you ain't and stick to your teeny tiny coop apartment if you even have that. It's all you can afford in your "better" neighborhoods for $600,000 to 1 million.

As for the moron who said Crown Heights had more crime than areas outside of NYC - surely you're not saying per capita, right? Brooklyn is the most densely populated borough. Per capita, the crime here is NOTHING compared to other cities around the USA. Read all the news articles about it this year. Don't know how you missed that. I've lived in Atlanta and Minneapolis before and I was way way more wary of walking through those streets at night than I am anywhere in Brooklyn. Except I dunno, Brownsville or way East Flatbush. But those places are NOT Crown Heights. Go to those places first and then and only then judge Crown Heights.

Posted by: guest at November 3, 2007 12:00 PM

where are the condo/co-op open houses?

Posted by: guest at November 3, 2007 1:16 PM

@12:00 - Well, you can get a nice house in Bay Ridge for slightly under $1 million. The schools are great and there are plenty of great amenities up and down 3rd ave.

We go up to Park Slope occasionally and really don't see what the big thing about amenities is compared to Bay Ridge. We have everything within a few blocks, same as Park Slope. Many places to eat, lots of bars, car service, clothes stores, etc.

Now, don't get me wrong. I would love to own a Brownstone in Park Slope... it is a good 15 - 20 minutes closer to Manhattan then Bay Ridge is. But I don't notice any difference walking around Park Slope stores than in Bay Ridge on 3rd or 5th ave. There are even several blocks of brownstones here as well. And you can get one for $1.2 or under.

Posted by: guest at November 3, 2007 2:01 PM

Bay Ridge certainly should be considered seriously by those looking for a house, but it is way far out and the transportation is a joke. I had an apt there when I first moved to NYC and I never got to Manhattan in under 45-50 minutes at rush hour, even when I switched to the N at 59th or 36th. If I were trying to get home late at night, forget it. We're talking 20-30 minute waits for the R at 36th Street once I got off the N train. The neighborhoods of Crown Heights, PLG and Bed Stuy are closer to Manhattan, closer to Prospect Park, closer to Park Slope where all the best shopping and restaurants are, and each offer more than one measly subway. Plus sorry, the shops and restaurants in Bay Ridge are improving but are not the same as Park Slope. Bay Ridge is NOT Park Slope. You're setting yourself up for ridicule saying that. Another thing Bay Ridge needs to do is get itself landmarked and get more tasteful renovations and facades on its houses. There have been so many ticky tacky renos done there over the decades, it's dreadful. Some blocks are absolutely hideous.

Posted by: guest at November 3, 2007 2:11 PM

Speaking of bang for your buck for under a million with little to no crime. You will have to take a trip over to northern queens. THE best school district in the city (26). Less crime and still within striking distance of the city via the #7 train. I'm talking of areas like Bayside, Douglaston, Little Neck, Whitestone and Northern Flushing. True, there are no brownstones, but if you are all about safety, that's the place. Not to mention, Flushing is the new China town of new york. The place where Chinese folks from Canal Street now go to buy their authentic foodstuffs, also Queens is the most ethnically diverse place on the planet. For those of you who aren't afraid of that kind of thing. lol.

Posted by: guest at November 3, 2007 2:39 PM

Follow up on Northern Queens commute. 20 minutes to Grand Central by the LIRR, Bayside station or the good ol LIE straight shot into Manhattan through the midtown tunnel-15 minutes on a good night.

Posted by: guest at November 3, 2007 2:41 PM

Hey 2:39--the 7 train DOES NOT go to Bayside, Douglaston, Little Neck. PLEASE! Your only option is the LIRR, a long and expensive commute. And sorry, 2:41, but there is NO WAY you get into Manhattan in 15 minutes via the LIE during the rush hour commute. Ha! Ha ha! More like 1 hour 15 minutes with all the horrendous LIE traffic. That is THE worst thoroughfare ever. I grew up in Bayside and Douglaston and let me tell you these neighborhoods are far from idyllic. In my opinion, they epitomize the worst of suburban living.

Posted by: guest at November 3, 2007 2:49 PM

Why do people here always HAVE to send their kids to public school for K-5? I went to private school, so did my husband. We could not bring ourselves to spend another million dollars unnecessarily, or live another hour further away from Manhattan, just to be in a good public school district. For which we make no apologies.

We had a certain budget to work with, we bought a beautiful house in a landmarked historic district in a so-called "fringe" neighborhood located a mere one express subway stop from Park Slope, and we'll send our child to private schools. He'll get exposed to economic diversity at home in the neighborhood he lives in, which is usually the reason people want their kids to have the public school experience; and at school he'll get more focused attention in smaller size classes which is what we prefer anyway. It's not for everyone, but that was our decision. There are lots of ways to do this, in the end it's up to you all as individuals and what you and your own children's needs are. And nobody should judge you for it! The cliquey conformist nature of this important decision in the Brooklyn brownstone community is disturbing. I'm glad we're not going along with the lemmings on this one. I think I'd end up being very turned off by the fellow parents at these public schools.

Posted by: guest at November 3, 2007 2:51 PM

OMG--I can't believe we're actually bringing up places like Douglaston now. This is getting ridiculous...

Posted by: guest at November 3, 2007 2:56 PM

ok 2:49 let's go at it. First off Bayside is in the hands down best school district in the city-district 26. many years running. look it up. Second, while you would be nuts to drive to Manhattan during rush hour, you can easily drive to midtown in 15 minutes from bayside for an evening out. I know I've done it. and yes I have lived there. Next issue, crime, Bayside and northern queens are way down on murder and rape as compared to most of Brooklyn, again look it up. Next issue, parks and recreation, the parks and recreation abound, you have Alley Pond park, you have Bayside marina, Little Neck Bay not to mention some darn beautiful blocks of tree lined streets where one can safely walk at 2:00 in the morning if one choose to. By the way, I don't live there now, just giving folks the honest facts least they take your obviously jaundiced word for it. All they need do is go over easily available statistics. Again, if you folks want safety, beautiful streets, excellent schools within the city of New York, northern queens is an option with all of these amenities as well as cultural diversity. All for under a million. Stop the bulls..it. and tell things like they are.

Posted by: guest at November 3, 2007 3:04 PM

Gotta tell ya, I live in manhattan and am fortunate to be able to easily afford a smaller brownstone in the slope, but people make really convincing arguments for Ditmas, Windsor Terrace, areas in Queens, etc. They sound like interesting, developing neighborhoods with great schools. Sounds like there's only upside potential in this areas, unless I'm missing something.

Posted by: guest at November 3, 2007 3:10 PM

Bayside and Douglaston are the SUBURBS. Period. They are NOT urban areas. If you want to discuss the suburbs, that is a different story altogether. So your comments are pointless, really. And I'll repeat, I grew up in both Bayside and Douglaston and I would not live there as an adult.

Posted by: guest at November 3, 2007 3:13 PM

I really hope everyone does start moving to "northern" Queens. That way, prices will come down in the beautiful Bklyn brownstone neighborhoods where I'm house-hunting.

Posted by: guest at November 3, 2007 3:26 PM

Bayside used to be all Irish white power in the 1980s, hardly diverse. Have things changed?

Posted by: guest at November 3, 2007 3:29 PM

3:32,

Your stats are accurate, but your conclusion is not. Manhattan per se does not have a problem with violent crime, but Manhattan South does. I understand that you are trying to disprove the point about Crown Heights being dangerous, but all you have proven is that Manhattan South, too, is a dangerous area.

Nice try, though.

Posted by: guest at November 3, 2007 4:46 PM

3:13
You say Bayside and Douglaston are "suburbs" with all the cultural derision of a newly urbanized troglodyte. My reason for bringing up these areas at all was to let folks here know that there are options INSIDE city limits for those who put safety and school quality first on their list. I'm not telling all you Brownstone lovers to abandon your search only giving you some perspective. You say you "grew up in Bayside" so you will no doubt know that this part of queens is rich in authentic new york flavor as in Jewish delicatessens, not the ones converted into hipster hangouts, rich in history as in the Quaker house, home of the Flushing Remonstrance, the precurser to the Declaration of Independence. Home to all manner of ethnicities not just Irish, but Korean, Indian, South American, in addition to your white anglo saxon protestants. So take the information for what it is, another part of this great city. And stop looking down on your roots, it's unseemly and makes you look like a common poseur.

Posted by: guest at November 3, 2007 5:09 PM

I'm fascinated by the poster who chose a "fringe" neighborhood and is sending kid to private school. We are facing the choice now of bigger home v. private school, and at $25K/yr per kid, (not including inflation), you're talking a minimum of $150-200K to get your kid just to middle school, and we have 2 kids. So is the discount really worth it? We are definitely leaning towards public school and hoping to get our older kid registered in District 15 (we currently live in PS39 and are applying there as well as other District 15 schools) and then probably will look around in other close-by areas) once we're in.

Posted by: guest at November 3, 2007 5:29 PM

There are public schools who are as good as Harvard, but they won't get you the same connections. There are people who count on their Dalton/Spence/St Ann's friends to get them the job -- even when they're 40. That matters to a lot of people and why getting into top tier schools is harder than ever.

Posted by: guest at November 3, 2007 6:04 PM

@2:11, I am the Bay Ridge poster...

Yes, you are absolutely correct, the commute from Bay Ridge can suck. It is not that bad for work commute, but late night really is bad when the R slows down and turns into some kind of shuttle.

For commute though, the express bus is not bad. If you live in the low 70s, you can be at Wall St in 20 minutes if the traffic gods are on your side. I am in the high 80s, takes me about 35 minutes on the express bus. Not the best, but fine for me for daily commute to work. And in my case, the price difference is to Park Slope is something I can't afford so the extra 20 minute commute is certainly a trade off for me.

Serious question because I have never lived there, but how long does it take from Park Slope? I was under the impression about 20 minutes?

I wish there was an express subway from 86th street to the Wall St area.

My problem now is that I have the top floor in a two family for $1700 a month. There is a lot of space. I would like to be in Park Slope or somewhere closer to Manhattan, but now being use to the space I have, I don't want to move into something much smaller. And while I could afford to pay double the rent, I am trying to save for a house and that makes a huge difference in what I am able to put away each month. So far me, Bay Ridge was a decent place. I am just surprised that so many times people act as if Bay Ridge was as far away as Sheepshead Bay or something.

The R is problem. I work on Wall St (literally on that street) so switching at 59th or 36th for the express is no help since they get into Manhattan too far north. So I play the switching game sometimes of the R to the N or D to Atlantic and for the 2 or 3 (sounds like some kind of rap song). If the timing is *perfect* it's not a bad trip, but that is usually not the case.

The express bus is $5 each way, but I can get to my office in about 30 min with average traffic. From the Bowling Green to the first stop in Bay Ridge is often times around 20 minutes - which is not bad at all. But getting from there to the high 80s can sometimes double the trip time.

And since I mentioned it, if anyone wants to rent a large 2 bedroom closer to Manhattan for under $2500 I might be interested (professional couple, combined income about $200k, never once been late with rent!).

Posted by: guest at November 3, 2007 6:36 PM

Seriously, 3:13. I think you are romanticizing Bayside a bit too much. Spare me your multicultural condescending lecture. Bayside was a racist shithole when I lived there. I have no desire to revisit that area and am entitled to my opinion, as you are to yours. It's also barely within city limits anyway. Enjoy the neighborhood.

Posted by: guest at November 3, 2007 6:44 PM

Bayside, Douglaston, Little Neck all border Nassau County. They'd much rather BE in Nassau than in Queens anyway. It's always been that way.

Posted by: guest at November 3, 2007 7:17 PM

6:44 had to comment once again since now you are stigimatizing an entire neighborhood as a "racist shithole" without anything more than personal anecdotes.
As I stated, I lived in Bayside (70's and 80's), I have also lived in East New York, Brooklyn, went to school in Clinton Hill and Harlem. I work in Bushwick and Canarsie, own property in Bushwick, Bed-Stuy and the Rockaways. Those are my New Yorker credentials, and yes I was born here.
To dismiss Bayside as you have is both insulting and ridiculous. Growing up in Bayside my neighbors included: in no particular order: Chinese, Jews, Irish, Koreans, Indians, Puerto Ricans and Italians. Funny, I don't seem to recall any sort of racial flare-ups a la Bensonhurst and Crown Heights (nothing against those neighborhoods). You may have had your share of racial bigotry, who hasn't? This is New York after all, and we all know how cruel kids can be. So leave that in the past and stop denigrating an area because you see yourself as that most cliched of character: the wide-eyed ingenue seeking the open-minded mecca that is Manhattan. In case you missed it: many of those nice buildings on 5th Avenue were restricted and still are in many ways. By the way, I'm Hispanic myself. Oye como va?

Posted by: guest at November 3, 2007 7:20 PM

Ay por Dios, 7:20. Bayside and Douglaston can suck each other's balls.

Posted by: guest at November 3, 2007 8:16 PM

Hey 6:36pm from Bay Ridge, have you checked out the prewar apartments in Windsor Terrace? A friend of mine got one recently so I've seen them. They're spacious, lots of closets, and in the price range you mention. Of course the only subway option there is the F. I don't know the express bus options in WT.

Posted by: guest at November 3, 2007 8:20 PM

Hi 5:29, the issue for us was what do you do after K-5? There are good K-5 schools, sure, but middle school is tough and everyone we know ended up choosing private schools at that point anyway. Also the concerns about large classes at places like PS 321 are legit. We'd rather not have classes that are 25, 30, 35 kids per room. We're both creatives and if our kid is as spacey as we can be, a big class distracting the teacher wouldn't be good. We both thrived under more focused, personal attention, ourselves.

Posted by: guest at November 3, 2007 8:26 PM

Just wondering: is anyone planning on going to any of these open houses tomorrow?

Posted by: guest at November 3, 2007 9:24 PM

RE: Bay Ridge commute

There seems to be a strong movement towards bring back the ferry from the 69th Street pier. I know that will only help folks who work on Wall St, but it might certainly helpa good number of you.

Posted by: guest at November 3, 2007 9:25 PM

One problem with Bayside.

It's in Queens.

Thrust of yet another thread: Everyone wants to live in Park Slope

Posted by: guest at November 3, 2007 10:28 PM

The problem with Bayside is not that it's in Queens per se, it's that it is FAR OUT IN QUEENS. As noted above, it is closer to Nassau County than to Manhattan. You need a car to live there. There are no subways. The buses are few and far between. It is no Flushing or Astoria, which I'd take over Bayside anyday.

Posted by: guest at November 3, 2007 10:46 PM

Well, why is there such high demand for Park Slope?

Posted by: guest at November 3, 2007 10:48 PM

10:28pm Well not EVERYONE wants Park Slope - we spent four years there and then moved to Cobble Hill which is a much shorter commute and has everything and more than PS.

Posted by: guest at November 3, 2007 10:52 PM

5:29, why would you be applying for PS39 if you're zoned for it? It's in District 15 and if you're zoned for it, you can go. What other schools are you looking at? We're zoned for PS39 as well, applying for prek next year. is prek what you meant?

Posted by: guest at November 3, 2007 11:01 PM

11:01 - I'm 5:29. "Applying" was a bad choice of word. Or course, we are guaranteed a spot in 39 - what I meant is that we are applying to other District 15 schools i.e. lottery schools plus looking into variances at other schools. Actually, I've heard 39 is getting better and better - but I don't want to hog this board with too much talk of schools. Though of course, it's relevant in real estate. That said, I'm really amazed by the prices being asked in District 13 (i.e Park Slope north of Union St, Ft Greene, etc.) when the schools there are evidently no way near as good as District 15. I know things change and some schools in District 13 are improving, but I've heard from most people that there is still a long way to go in 13 compared to 15. I really do think prices are going to drop. Has anyone seen this house on President St in PS (the District 13 side, not 15). It went on market at 1.9, dropped to 1.65 and just last week was slashed to 1.4. Clearly, something is up with the market for this kind of price decline in "prime" area.

Posted by: guest at November 3, 2007 11:38 PM

FYI even if your are in the zone you are not guaranteed a spot in Pre-k as it's not a compulsory year. We're zoned for PS29 and for 2007-2008 they had too many applicants for Pre-K and having only 54 places and more than 80 zoned applicants had to hold a lottery for places. We ended up being #10 on the waitlist but two weeks after school started fortunately our number came up.

Posted by: guest at November 4, 2007 7:15 AM

There isn't such high demand for Park Slope. Park Slope is 6 times the size of other neighborhoods and has more housing stock. Relative the size of Park Slope the demand is actually not that impressive. Houses are always available in Park Slope. They come on the market much less often in Cobble Hill, Carroll Gardens or Boerum Hill and it is therefor much harder to find houses in these areas. The only thing Park Slope has going for it is that it has more people to come on these boards to insist how wonderful Park Slope is.

Posted by: guest at November 4, 2007 7:43 AM

Let's explore this commute thing further. Half of the folks here spend their time whining about crime ridden areas they can't live in, so they ignore beautiful homes at a reasonable price in Bed-Stuy.Others spend their time lamenting their commute. So most of the folks end up lauding Park Slope because it has relatively low crime and a short commute to Manhattan. If one dares to bring up Queens as an alternative, out come the dunderheads with their sarcastic : Queens as a cultural dustbin, routine. Totally ignoring the fact that a commute from Queens can take half an hour easily on the #7 train or the E train or the LIRR to Grand Central(shell out the 10 bucks, and stop whining). So it all comes back to a bunch of cultural poseurs wanting nothing but to live in Park Slope acting like they are living out some tv commercial fantasy of bohemian virtue, while looking down at neighborhoods from which true artistic genius grows. Park Slope is very nice but in the last 50 years it has not produced the artistic/cultural achievements of "lesser" parts of the city like say Forest Hills, Queens which gave us the Ramones (inventors of Punk)and Simon&Garfunkel(pioneers of folk), or say Flushing Queens (home to Jerry Seinfeld's alma mater Queens College) or say Hollis/Jamaica the home of Run DMC and Fitty Cent or Corona the home of Louis Armstrong (jazz genius extroidainaire)or even Howard Beach which, for what it's worth is where Hollywood goes to find true mobster style and lingo. Park Slope is a beautiful neighborhood which I know quite well but don't be one of those obsequious sycophants who thinks you can buy yourself a lifestyle by sitting in a coffee shop in Williamsburg while putting down the "outer boroughs" which actually invent the next wave.

Posted by: guest at November 4, 2007 8:27 AM

People who are concerned about middle and high school should be looking at District 22 and 23, not District 15, which craps out after elementary school, with the possible exception of 51, and even they only got a handful of kids admitted to Stuyvesant, etc.

Posted by: guest at November 4, 2007 8:37 AM

Are there historic brownstones in Queens, poster 8:27? Because this board is mainly about historic brownstones. And yes, buying a historic brownstone in an urban area is more expensive than buying a ranch house with aluminum siding, or a non-descript 1960s brick house, no matter how nice the neighborhood. You sound like a bitter person, insulting anyone who wouldn't consider Queens. And funny how you don't mention the Queens neighborhoods that are closest to Manhattan--Jackson Heights, Astoria, LIC. What's the matter? Too many "poseurs" there for you? Just because someone doesn't *want* to live in an "outer borough" doesn't mean they are being disdainful. I like to walk a lot, and I don't want to be dependent on a car to get to the LIRR train station. Hence, I would never in a million years live that far out in any neighborhood. That's why I moved to a densely populated urban area. Also, I've always loved and admired brownstone architecture, so if and when I can afford a nice brownstone, I will look for one in Brooklyn where there are many great neighborhoods and houses to choose from, and where I can walk to a subway train and be at my job. Most of the time people are driven by purely practical concerns, and not by the "cultural superiority" you mention.

Posted by: guest at November 4, 2007 9:54 AM

Why don't you start a blog in which you praise the virtues of Queens? Have a HOTD (or similar) feature, history section, commute information, etc. Dude, you can be the person who singlehandedly sparks an (outer) Queens Renaissance!

Posted by: guest at November 4, 2007 10:07 AM

Queens HOTD:

http://queenscrap.blogspot.com/2007/11/picture-postcards-from-jamaica.html

Posted by: guest at November 4, 2007 10:22 AM

Go Teaneck!

Posted by: guest at November 4, 2007 10:28 AM

Yeah, Hunters Point is like 2 blocks long, and now you're surrounded by all the new hi-rises anyway

Posted by: guest at November 4, 2007 10:38 AM

To #7:43....your reasoning for why you seem to think there is not high demand for Park Slope is simply moronic. Your rational was because it's a large neighborhood, no??

Well given that prices are still one of the highest of all Brooklyn neighborhoods and the fact that IT IS a rather large neighborhood, only proves the point of how high demand is for the neighborhood.

Do you understand that?

Any fyi...the neighborhood itself really isn't that large, but over the last 10 years, real estate agents and others have basically started tacking on any area they can around Park Slope, now calling it such. 15th Street is the end of Park Slope, but you now find many people calling well into the teens and 20's Park Slope. Same thing with the Gowanus area. I even see listings north of Flatbush that brokers like to now call Park Slope to get more people interested.

Do you think these things symbolize low demand?

I talk to my broker friends regularly...two of which deal almost exclusively in Manhattan, and they all say Park Slope is one of the most sought after neighborhoods in the city.

I don't care personally, but I'm just giving you some facts.

Posted by: guest at November 4, 2007 10:42 AM

This comes up all the time. I don't understand it. Park Slope is in high-demand and is an expensive neighborhood simply because:

1. It is "New York's largest, most intact mid-to-nineteenth-century brownstone neighborhood." (Charles Lockwood, p. 286)
2. It is near one of the nicest parks in NYC.
3. It has great stores and amenities.
4. It offers a relatively easy commute to NYC.

Period. You can argue ad nauseum about all the stereotypes you can find in Park Slope--but there are douchebags and nice people in EVERY neighborhood in the world!

Posted by: guest at November 4, 2007 11:12 AM

There are all types of people everywhere. I was at Ft. Greene park yesterday and was surprised by the amount of ultra self-consciously dressed and styled young parents I saw. The type that try waaay too hard to be crazy edgy, hip, and non-conformist. I was surprised because I'd always thought Ft. Greene was supposed to be more understated and low-key. So there are "types" in every neighborhood. Human nature is the same everywhere. I don't think one neighborhood is better or worse based on a broad generalization about its inhabitants. I know many nice and normal people who live on the UES and also a few raging a**holes.

Posted by: guest at November 4, 2007 11:33 AM

Hey Bay Ridge commuter - if you want to get to Wall St. quickly you should check out Bed-Stuy. The A train is a super quick ride to Broadway-Nassau. Plenty of nice, quiet brownstone blocks near the Utica or Nostrand stops (Nostrand is closer to Manhattan, but Utica is closer to the slightly more upscale Stuy Heights amenities). Lewis Ave. and Tompkins Ave. are the burgeoning boutique retail strips. You should be able to find a 2 bedroom floor through in your price range, and provided you look at places in the southern part of the neighborhood (which you would want to do anyway in order to be close to the A train) you will find many gorgeous, quiet, safe brownstone blocks.

Posted by: guest at November 4, 2007 11:34 AM

I have to laugh at some of the reference to Queens as the "outer boroughs". What short memories we have (or perhaps, how young people on this blog must be). I moved to Park Slope in 1985 because I could rent an apartment (shared) and my share of the rent was $300. Brooklyn was very much an "outer borough" at that time, and for years afterward, and people very disdainfully called anyone not living in Manhattan part of the "bridge and tunnel crowd".

I was fortunate enough to buy a brownstone in another nice Brooklyn neighborhood more than 15 years later (although prices were still affordable). But I imagine in another 15 years Queens will be viewed in a very similar way and no one will have memories of a time when Queens wasn't one of the most desirable places in NYC to live (along with Manhattan and Brooklyn, hopefully).

And people don't want to live in Brooklyn just because of the brownstone housing stock -- otherwise, there wouldn't be all those new construction buildings where not very nice apartments in good neighborhoods sell for enormous amounts of money. If I were starting out now, I'd look for a place in Queens, Inwood, or other neighborhoods that may not yet be viewed as cool, but are very nice places to live nevertheless.

Posted by: guest at November 4, 2007 12:22 PM

9:54
Hey, I'm all about Brownstones, I actually own one. But the "bitterness" all started when I dared to suggest to some folks here looking for good schools and low crime that they might try northern, Queens. Not northern Nova Scotia, mind you, but the area of Queens served by the #7 train and the LIRR which are both reasonable commutes to the city. Argue all you want but as I stated THE best school district in the city (k-12) district 26 in Bayside/Douglaston area and violent crime is rare. I became "bitter" because some troglodyte was busy with the all too common Queens bashing which is at best borish and at worst ignorant of the cultural offerings of the most diverse parcel of land on the planet. So you may think I'm bitter, but it's only because there are abundant poseurs on this website that feel as if parts of Brooklyn are the end-all of civilized discourse. Sorry if I back up my points with facts but I thought they might help in this feast of pure reason.

Posted by: guest at November 4, 2007 12:27 PM

I don't think anyone was arguing that Brooklyn was less an outer borough than Queens, 12:22. I appreciate your advertisement for Queens, but I believe the primary argument here is that this blog is called Brownstoner. I'd venture to say that a vast majority of people who read this website usually prefer homes that are of architectural significance, older and filled with charm.

Homes in Queens, do not, for the most part excompass this. It was just a different style of home built in Queens at a different point in our history. They are less ornate.

I'm sure there are tons of nice neighrborhoods...I've been to quite a few that seemed pleasant enough. It's just that some of us have a different sense of what is considered beautiful. I need to live somehwere I think is beautiful. I would think that about very few homes in Queens. That's why I've decided on Brooklyn.

It's nothing personal.

Posted by: guest at November 4, 2007 12:35 PM

sorry....encompass.

funny typo on that one.

Posted by: guest at November 4, 2007 12:37 PM

Queens-bashing is dumb. Nothing wrong with Queens; there are cool areas there and good housing stock. Lots of prewar coops. However, we personally would be far more likely to move upstate than to move to Queens, if we decided we were leaving Brooklyn (and not for Manhattan). It's the outer reaches, it's the 'burbs. So is Bay Ridge. No way around it.

Posted by: guest at November 4, 2007 12:37 PM

The point of my living in an urban area is so that I can walk or hop a train to get where I have to go. I love Brownstone Brooklyn and I even like Ditmas Park area because it's still has a city vibe even though the homes are Victorian. If and when I am ready to go suburban, if ever, I would not want to live in some half-ass suburban area like Queens or Staten Island or Bay Ridge. I'd go upstate where I can get a home on acre or two and drive to a decent mall.

Posted by: guest at November 4, 2007 2:02 PM

It's amazing how off topic Open House Picks gets. Well, at least no one is talking about stroller moms.

Posted by: guest at November 4, 2007 2:40 PM

I saw 1094 Park Place today and it is truly gorgeous.

Posted by: guest at November 4, 2007 3:47 PM

Did anyone go to the open house at 162 Bergen Street? interesting place.

Posted by: guest at November 4, 2007 3:59 PM

Jeez. Bayside and/or Douglaston are the suburbs people. It's alright to use that word, right? Or is it now politically incorrect too?
Someone already pointed this out--there is no public transportation. The distances are longer and you need a car. You cannot live in those neighborhoods without a car. In that regard, they are completely different than most areas of Brooklyn--so yes, they are part of "OUTER" Queens and always will be. But for many people that is a good thing. They are the suburbs...there is nothing wrong with that word. USE IT! Many people prefer the suburbs. That's fine.

Posted by: guest at November 4, 2007 4:08 PM

I just came from the CH open house. It was beatifully restored. How many bedrooms were there ???- 5 I think and the 3rd floor was a Master Suite of a huge bedroom, HUGE bathroom and walk through closet. The backyard garden is one of the nicest Ive seen....However the price is probably a bit high, as it is far east in CH. However whoever buys it will be sitting on a very unique piece of architecture AND will come out very well in the next few years. I think it may go btw 1.1 and 1.2 million, and in 10 years it will be worth twice as much....

Posted by: guest at November 4, 2007 4:34 PM

I'll take upstate or Rockland County over Bayside anyday...no contest. Bayside, Little Neck, et al, are neither here nor there--they're a weird hybrid. Too far out to be relevant or convenient, yet not far enough to offer the advantages of a true suburban area. Half-assed indeed.

Posted by: guest at November 4, 2007 4:36 PM

I went to 162 Bergen (not an OH pick; listed by Corcoran). The place was packed. Lots of good-looking, super self-conscious fashion types. House needs at least $500K in work. Super-ornate parlor crown moulding. Charming house.

Posted by: guest at November 4, 2007 4:40 PM

i see nothing listed for corcoran on bergen.

what's the link?

Posted by: guest at November 4, 2007 5:03 PM

Link for 162 Bergen:
http://www.corcoran.com/property/listing.aspx?Region=NYC&ListingID=1095011

Posted by: guest at November 4, 2007 5:09 PM

Perhaps those mentioned parts of Queens are indeed some half assed suburb. But in defense of Bay Ride, though the commute into the city is long, you absolutely don't need a car in Bay Ridge. Most of my middle aged friends have never owned a car and feel fine without one. Perhaps it's suburban, but I don't think it's half assed. At least they theorize Jane Jacobs wouldn't think so:

http://www.nyobserver.com/2007/what-would-jane-jacobs-think

Just sayin'...

Posted by: guest at November 4, 2007 9:54 PM

Does anyone have an answer for 11:38 re the Pres St house?

Posted by: guest at November 4, 2007 10:55 PM

162 Bergen is listed at $2,300,000 AND needs $500k in work? That's a lotta scratch to live a block from the projects.

Posted by: guest at November 4, 2007 11:06 PM

i'm looking in park slope...not boreum hill...

not for that kinda money.

no way.

Posted by: guest at November 4, 2007 11:54 PM

Someone just posted an excellent open house report on 40 St. Marks--see original HOTD thread.

Posted by: guest at November 5, 2007 12:34 AM

11:06: This is the problem with BH. Great houses, but unless you're near Smith Street you are sandwiched between the Atlantic Avenue/Fulton Mall and the projects.

Posted by: guest at November 5, 2007 2:21 AM

If someone wants to consider Queens and have somewhat of an urban lifestyle, Forest Hills is a better bet. In addition, to great shopping, subways and LIRR, it has a good stock of 30s houses similar to Midwood/Madison, not so attractive townhouses and Forest Hills Gardens - which I think is comparable to prime brownstone blocks. The public elementary schools are better than most of Brooklyn too. Most of Queens requires the need of a car, so it has an urban feel like many other cities in the US.

Still having grown up in Rockland county, there is no comparison with Bayside or other fringe city neighborhoods. Most people in Rockland come into the city a few times a year other than for work at most. The quality of public transportation is horrible and it is a kind of alienating for teenage kids - not much to do.

Posted by: guest at November 5, 2007 2:36 AM

I, too, grew up in Rockland, and although Nyack and Piermont have some appeal, the rest is a wasteland and I would never choose to raise my children there, despite the quality of some of the schools (which, ironically don't include those in Nyack).

Posted by: guest at November 5, 2007 8:19 AM

Also, I can't even being to describe the ennui of being a teenager in Rockland County. I was on the bus, taking the two hour ride into the city every chance I got, starting at about 13, frequently cutting school to do so.

Drinking vodka out of a paper bag in the neighborhood playground was about as exciting as it got on Friday nights out there.

I've heard many parents further up in the Rhinebeck area state that after an idyllic childhood, opportunities for their teens are really limited and depressing. It's not like there hothousing art students or ivy league types out their in the hinterlands. Some have moved further down to Westchester and Rockland, where there are lots of parents pushing the college track, others have come back to Brooklyn.

Posted by: guest at November 5, 2007 8:25 AM

I've been intrigued by Forest Hills. I don't know if I can stomach all the competition and analysis of where I can live and what I can afford.

I think 2:36 might be onto something...

Posted by: guest at November 5, 2007 9:43 AM

Hmm... 8:25, that sounds just like my childhood in Little Neck, QUEENS. You'd be surprised how many people living in Little Neck/Great Neck, and yes, even Bayside, rarely step foot in the city. Maybe once a year, but I knew and still know many people who spent years without doing so.

Posted by: guest at November 5, 2007 9:45 AM

Yes, Forest Hills is a much better alternative than those aforementioned half-assed towns like Bayside or Douglaston, which are really far out there and nothing special. Some parts of Forest Hills are more expensive than others though, and not all are so readily accessible by public transportation--just be aware of that.

Posted by: guest at November 5, 2007 9:48 AM

But would Forst Hills be better than Bay Ridge. I think I am leaning towards those neighborhoods. Or Montclair (talk me out of Montclair)

Posted by: guest at November 5, 2007 10:02 AM

Personally, I get a little depressed in Forest Hills. But that's just me. Even though Montclair is further out, I liked it a lot when I visited. I took a train from Penn Station and was there in 20 minutes. You could walk to many stores because it's a railroad suburb, and was built around the train station.

Posted by: guest at November 5, 2007 10:11 AM

That's funny because my broker friend in Manhattan said that most people get nauseated when Park Slope comes up. He says that the first thing that people consider when moving to Brooklyn is keeping the commute as short as possible. And the neighborhoods that come up are Cobble Hill, Boerum Hill and Carroll Gardens, neighborhoods with that don't have all the negative baggage that comes with Park Slope and that are closer to Manhattan.

Posted by: guest at November 5, 2007 10:25 AM

I think you're full of bs, 10:25.

If people get nauseated at the mention of Park Slope (and if you BUY that) you are even more stupid than your post would suggest.

Posted by: guest at November 5, 2007 11:10 AM

"I've been intrigued by Forest Hills. I don't know if I can stomach all the competition and analysis of where I can live and what I can afford."

After leaving Manhattan we went here first. A mistake for us: very insular and isolating. Our block felt like a Florida retirement community, the casual racism of the brokers in the area was inane (they were so pleased we were white and not another Asian family), and our Brooklyn friends were out $60 in car service money to visit us. The whole neighborhood felt viscerally more connected to Long Island (i.e. "we're going to the Roosevelt mall this weekend" than Manhattan, despite the E/F nearby and the LIRR stop.

On the plus side, the gardens are beautiful and very convenient to JFK/LaGuardia.

Posted by: guest at November 5, 2007 11:25 AM

Thank you 11:25 am. You are absolutely right and you beat me to it. Your description also applies perfectly to Bayside, Douglaston, and Little Neck. All these towns definitely identify with and feel more like suburban Long Island than NYC.

Posted by: guest at November 5, 2007 11:55 AM

Did any of these open houses feature tasty appetizers?

Posted by: guest at November 5, 2007 12:38 PM

No, but I heard there were naked gymnasts doing backflips up and down the driveway at the Crown Heights open house.

Posted by: guest at November 5, 2007 4:39 PM