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November 8, 2007
Newcomers Find Crown Heights Retail Lacking
North Crown Heights may be luring more affluent buyers with its gorgeous—and recently landmarked—rowhouses, but some of the newbie homeowners think the area’s shopping scene leaves a lot to be desired. According to an article in today’s Sun, as more buyers see the neighborhood as an affordable alternative to Prospect Heights, they’re also anxious to see a retail renaissance on thoroughfares like Nostrand. A Wall Street worker who recently closed on an $870,000 Hampton Place home, for example, says he’s ready to see more restaurants in the ’hood: "If there was something to patronize, I'd willingly spend money there. I'd like to see more amenities. People have money here. Somebody has to be the pioneer and open up something. It's just a matter of time." Think he’s right?
Retailers So Far Fail To Follow Homebuyers to North Crown Heights [Sun]
Photo by ultraclay!.
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Comments
here we go again...
waa waa waa
why isnt the ghetto catering to my needs
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 9:47 AM
hold on, you're telling me that Crown Heights retail doesn't include wine shops, tapas bars and latte????
wtf????
i thought this was bklyn???
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 9:51 AM
You ghetto people are so selfish...quick, ruslle me up some risotto and quail
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 9:51 AM
People need to support the few places that we have in the area already... Dose anyone know if Norstrand is going to get rezoned like Fulton?
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 9:53 AM
Ah... it's just like A Year in Provence!
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 9:56 AM
boo hoo
sounds like the idiots in kensington who dont understand why everything is a discount store and/or caters to muslims
colonizers swoop in and expect the hood to change to accomodate them
fucking pricks
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 9:56 AM
Here's the real problem. Just because you bought a house in Crown Heights for $1 million does not mean you are living in a neighborhood of people who can afford $1 million houses.
Whatever the selling prices are now, only a small percentage of your neighbors have actually paid them. The fact that you just put a Gaggenau stove in your townhouse does not turn your neighborhood into the Upper East Side.
Them's the trade-offs of recent gentrificiation, pal. You don't just add water and get an instant yuppie neighborhood.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 9:59 AM
Crown Heights has the most beautiful side streets that I have ever seen in Brooklyn such as Dean, Bergen, St. Marks etc... But Norstrand and Bedford are ugly... No trees signage is way too big. UGLY new construction. TOO many young guys hanging out on the corner doing nothing.... All these things have to change like yesterday...
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 10:01 AM
9:59 I could not agree more.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 10:05 AM
Crown Heights: please see Clinton Hill; repeat.
Posted by: Jimmy Legs at November 8, 2007 10:06 AM
you know things are out of control when street names that you only heard of in rap lyrics start popping up in gentrification debates.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 10:06 AM
10:01 am ...You could always go back to were you came from if they don't change fast enough for you!
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 10:07 AM
The problem is that the existing merchants have a real opportunity to invest in their businesses and take advantage of these new residents - BUT the vast majority wont; they'll sit back, ignore the opportunity, do nothing about the fact that their long-term lease is coming up in 4-5 years, and keep doing business as usual.
THEN in 2012 when the LL comes back to re-negotiate expecting market-rate rents, the merchants will complain that the LL are greedy and close up shop and there will be posts on boards like this calling the LL evil and greedy and how Brooklyn is 'over'.
However there will be a few (hopefully) that see that a clean, efficient store with good merchandise will appeal to many demographics, while providing overall better margins, they will wisely approach their LL now and will pay more now to extend their leaseholds so as to save $ in the future, and these buisnesses will thrive.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 10:09 AM
Of course it's just a matter of time. There seem to be a few golden years when gentrifying neighborhoods can support both the overpriced boutiques of useless stuff AND the necessary retail that a functioning neighborhoods needs. Enjoy it while it lasts, Crown Heights!
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 10:11 AM
10:01... you go out there right now and tell those insolent young men doing nothing to get off their duffs and get busy!
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 10:11 AM
I think you are right 10:09... the same thing happend on Flatbush and Fulton Street in FG.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 10:13 AM
how dare these lowlifes ruin the character of crown heights!
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 10:14 AM
I have tried 10:11... Believe me... and they almost always tell me the same thing.. They are in the music waiting for the "deal to come" Or they are going to college next year in NC some place.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 10:17 AM
Couldn't agree more 10:14...less crack and more souffles!!!
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 10:17 AM
Lets be real as an african american that is an architect this streets looks ugly... business on that corridor needs to invest in the upgrading of themselves...
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 10:20 AM
wow i moved to crown heights last wknd and already black people are invading my hood
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 10:20 AM
The article is great. I live in CHs - moved from Gramercy with family and I would love to see more restaurants bars etc. We go to Saje on Franklin, or the Indian place on Franklin and Prospect, otherwise to Park Slope and Prospect Heights if we want a decent cafe, good bakery, good supermarkets etc etc. I know it will take time for the nabe to improve. We couldnt afford Prospect Heights and got a great deal on a two family in CHN for less than 700,000. We are there for the long term (hopefully) and I look forward to seeing the changes. I really love the nabe and the people in it. CHN is really a well kept secret. Im trying to entice my friends over there to get a brownstone fast before the RE gets really out of control and no one can afford it. In the meantime I will continue to cook at home and save some money, which is much needed as we now have a mortgage to pay off....
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 10:24 AM
Get over it ... this is all part of living in a lovely area that is a cheaper the very expansive Park Slope, Prospect Heights and Fort Greene. The same thing happened in Clinton Hill and over the years things improved. Relax it will get better...and if it doesn't you all can go back to were you can from!
A ClintonHill Lady (smile)
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 10:25 AM
Wait ... where is Crown Heights? (Loving how funny most of the replies are)
Posted by: tag482 at November 8, 2007 10:25 AM
10:20 LOL...That's funny!
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 10:26 AM
Here's a great map
http://www.brooklyn.com/map-18.html
Posted by: tag482 at November 8, 2007 10:26 AM
I agree that the merchants are missing an opportunity to cater to the changing tastes of the neighborhood. Look at Smith Street over the past 10 years. I'll use Los Paisanos as an example. They've kept up with changes to the neighborhood and must be making a fortune right now. They still carry family packs of meat and low cost cuts but they've also packed the shop with high end, high margin offerings. Same guys are still behind the counter. Everyone wins.
What's wrong with wanting businesses that cater to your tastes in your own neighborhood? Noone is saying they are entitled to it - they just wish there were more. Eventually the smartest businesses will adapt when the demand is there.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 10:29 AM
CH is a risky bet with tremendous upside potential...beautiful homes but you cannot deny the existence of poverty, crime, housing projects, etc..this stuff doesn't simply go away
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 10:32 AM
it did in Fort Greene 10:32... Well they still have PJs but for how long?
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 10:35 AM
the problem, 10:29, is that early gentrifiers always overestimate how many of "them" there are. i see this happening i kensington too...simply denying reality...i business can not survive on selling fancy cheeses to the 1% of the population who'll maybe stop by once a week.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 10:36 AM
You guys have to remember that CH is a large area and not all of CH has those issues 10:32.
And yes, we all would like the stores to pull it together a bit but with the current market climate how the hell do you expct them to get the extra money to fix the stores up. But don't worry it will get better...Promise!
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 10:38 AM
10:35
im sure it changed, but it took time, didn't it?
and also, i suspect many people moved from FG and Clinton Hill to CHeights...After a certain point they run out of options to disappear to
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 10:40 AM
10:38 small business loans are not difficult to obtain and have not really been impacted by the mortgage issues; additionally the failure of smaller merchants to adapt has nothing to do with the current climate - just look at all the previously gentrified areas that preceded North Crown Heights.
The simple fact is that virtually any retail business owner should welcome the addition of wealthier people and more development in their immediate vicinity even if that comes with higher rents.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 10:44 AM
The only housing project in CHN is Albany Projects and that's on the outskirts of CHN. Compared to other areas that's not bad. Most gentrified areas have more than one project within a 10 block radius. I purchased in CHN in 06 and I believe that with time we will also reap the rewards of local businesses that cater to more than nails and hair. I think the nail salons on Nostrand are bit excessive.
Posted by: faithful at November 8, 2007 10:46 AM
The comments about current businesses failing to "keep up with the times" are spot on. It's annoying to see a store that continues to stock malt liquor, Dipsey Doodles, Uncle Jessie's peanuts, and the Daily News turn around and ask for sympathy when they inevitably fold.
I saw this happen to about a dozen businesses when I lived in Fort Greene. As a resident of Prospect Heights, I see it happening all over again. The post yesterday about Mooney's provides a good example.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 10:48 AM
I agree with 9:59 and 10:09.
Crown Heights' street plan is also a factor. Unlike many neighborhoods where the major avenues are commercial, we really only have Nostrand and Kingston, with parts of Bedford, as commercial streets. Since Nostrand and Kingston are so far apart, Nostrand is really the only major viaduct for strong commercial endeavors - it's in the middle. I know that Community Bd 8, CHNA and other interested parties are lobbying for better services, new businesses, and a BID, it's up to the landlords, merchants and residents to all try to get together on this one.
I'm told much of Nostrand Ave is owned by a small number of landlords, and that rents are very expensive, which is one reason some of the empty or underutilized storefronts stay empty. I also think there is a wait and see attitude at work - interested parties are all waiting for someone to dive in with more upscale businesses, but no one wants to be the first.
If you walk up Nostrand from Atlantic to Eastern Parkway, there are some incredible commercial buildings here. Amazing terra cotta facades, a couple of bank buildings, and some great Deco buildings. We have the makings of a fine commercial hub. Many of these storefronts house viable commercial businesses that have served the community of Caribbean and other black people for the last 50 years, and they deserve to be there.
As spaces become available, I'd love to see more amenities. We desperately need a couple of coffee shops and casual restaurants - the kind of place where you could get a good omelette and toast on a weekend, or some soup and salad during the week. I think that businesses that can serve all of the community, not just more well heeled newcomers will thrive, if done right. It will happen, it's just going to take time. In the meantime, those of us who live here need to make a concerted effort to support the local businesses that have survived and thrived over the years - places like Barbara's Flowers, Garvey's Hardware, Al's Hardware, and newer establishments like Tavern on Nostrand. If we go to management of the supermarkets and tell them we're not shopping there until they clean up better, instead of merely going elsewhere, so they stay status quo, we won't get anywhere.
It's hard making changes, and it takes time, effort and dedication to the community. Many people aren't used to having to do this, or don't have the time, or want to take the time, to be very proactive. But this is what must be done.
Those in the community who could always do better, just left and shopped elsewhere. That left those who couldn't, and businesses, both good and bad, serve that market. Some people were too poor or beat down to complain, others stole what wasn't nailed down and gave all of us a bad rep. Some complained, but got nowhere. Some store owners embraced the community, some have nothing but fear or contempt for it. Some stocked goods they showed with pride, others gave us any old crap they could. We have the power of the purse. All of us - old and new, richer, poorer, can help shape our commercial hub. But please note - it is going to take time.
Posted by: Montrose Morris at November 8, 2007 10:49 AM
this is EXACTLY the reason why crown heights is not worth million dollar homes yet.
anyone who's paying that much for this neighborhood is overpaying.
period.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 10:53 AM
I meant to say, if we don't complain to the supermarkets, they won't ever change. I did not mean that they won't change no matter what we do. Believe it or not, they are better than they were even 3 years ago.
Posted by: Montrose Morris at November 8, 2007 10:57 AM
Thanks Brownstoner- finally you are covering Crown Heights and as you can see there is a lot of interest in the development of the neighborhood.
I fully agree with the previous posters. We are getting our groceries in Park Slope and cook at home or order food from the new restaurants in Prospect Heights.
The local business people in CH are quite stubborn folk and reluctant to change but this will change with the arrival of new residents and restaurants. I will never forget what Prospect Heights looked like back in 2000. There were literally no businesses on Vanderbilt Avenue.
CH is a great neighborhood and its not just all poverty. Wouldn't you think that even the old residents would prefer to have more options, than buying their morning coffee and bakery goods at the local gas station. Moreover, some of the old businesses attract a certain clientele as a lot of bad people hang out and drink in front of the many run down liquor stores in the hood. As soon as the neighborhood will have taken the next stage of development, these establishments will not be able to renew their leases and be replaced with better stores.
In the meantime lets support the pioneers in the hood. Saje is indeed a great place to have a coffee and listen to live music. The new Indian restaurant on Franklin serves and delivers excellent food and Asian Jazz on Nostrand Avenue has very good Korean food.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 11:00 AM
if all these hoods change to cater to white folk who think they have taste, where wil one get authetic jamaican food???
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 11:08 AM
i don't like crown heights.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 11:18 AM
"Newcomers Find Crown Heights Retail Lacking"
We moved here five years ago from a small Union Square studio and were well aware of the status of retail compared to Manhattan. We chose to sacrifice those amenities for a beautiful, spacious home. We had no expectation that we would soon have upscale markets and restaurants. We have a real kitchen that makes it a pleasure to cook, a modest, quiet and lush garden, a place in the cellar that stays cool enough to keep a few bottles of wine, and warm, generous and friendly neighbors. Our quality of life is improved from living in that tiny Manhattan studio.
The Wall street guy complaining about lack of amenities is not typical of the people we have met who are 'newcomers'.
Posted by: Hal at November 8, 2007 11:19 AM
Having taste and asking for an upgrade of the quality of food and services doesn't mean that there is no space for authentic Caribbean Food. There are some places in the hood that are doing well and will not simply be pushed out.
I don't agree with the previous poster that development is only about the power of the purse. Just staying away from new restaurants in CH without getting the message across why you don't appreciate their food makes development more unpredictable. Let them know what you would like to see changed on the menue, how the quality of food needs to be improved in order to give the new business owners a second chance.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 11:22 AM
I'd rather live in a studio in Manhattan or even Park Slope than in a home in Crown Heights.
At least there I can walk around outside past dark.
There will be no significant retail coming to Nostrand until they do something to improve the crime situation. It is still not safe to walk around at night alone.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 11:24 AM
I think many of the posters are missing one great thing about CH. There are several yummy bakeries on Nostrand. These are Carribean bakeries but they have some of the best raisin bread and dense whole wheat bread that we've had. It's not served up in yuppie shops (which I do enjoy) but there are many kinds of sweet breads etc. in the bakeries along Nostrand between Atlantic and Eastern Pkwy. Just go inside. In one shop near Sterling, people line up out the door for the warm fresh bread. It's goooood.
Also David who opened up Tavern on Nostrand, Asian Jazz, a coffee shop and upscale spa/salon, has been investing in the neighborhood but he needs more customers to thrive.
Good eats:
Asian Jazz - support it.It's good
Saje - Franklin
Tavern on Nostrand -
Sky Cafe - (although I wish they would sell Bergen Bagels.)
Posted by: CrownGardener at November 8, 2007 11:30 AM
I am someone who grew up in Fort Greene, lived and met my wife in Crown Heights, moved back to Fort Greene, and now own property in both locations. I was very active in community work when I lived in Crown Hts. and I can tell you that most of the mixed-use property along Nostrand Ave (atlantic to eastern parkway)is owned by the same family for decades. Several years ago when I was managing a merchant improvement grant for this area, this family was approached about neighborhood concerns with rampant drug sales and other illegal activities coming from these properties. According to one of our surveys, there was two (2) known drug locations on every block along the entire strip. We distributed questionaires and neighborhood surveys to influence the owners on the type of businesses that were needed. But, they were receiving so much money from inflated rent from these activities that our recommendations went on deaf ears. Fort Greene was experiencing the same level of illegal activity. The difference was the owners also lived on these properties. So they had a vested interest in seeing positive changes. I joined the community advisory board, made some of the same recommendations that I made in Crown Heights, and the commercial strip began to cleanup. My point is gentrification should not be viewed as a negative (i.e. whites moving out blacks, or yuppies moving out the elderly) because the fact is: It will take many years before we see latte shops, and connecticut muffin on Nostrand Ave. But until than, Crown Heights will belong to the people that OWN...period. You will see the changes come to Nostrand Ave when the ownership changes come to Nostrand Ave.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 11:30 AM
Actually, Nostrand Avenue is a very good looking street. Here's what you do. Take your left and right index fingers and cover the storefronts in the photo. Notice the handsome facades above, the good proportions of the street, and the grace note of the church tower. Intrinsically, this is a better looking street than Seventh or Fifth Avenues.
Fifty years ago, this was a vital retail center with bakeries, supermarkets, druggists, flower shops, and soda fountains. (My favorite place was a shoe-box sized toy store near St. Marks Avenue so crowded with colorful packages that the owner, a little old man who always wore a jacket and tie, was barely visible behind the counter.)
Nostrand Avenue is still vital. Cleaned up -- and I don't mean tossing out retailers who've held on for years, good times and bad -- it will be one of the most atractive shopping streets in the city.
Nostalgic on Park Avenue
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 11:30 AM
The crime in Crown Heights is concentrated in the Albany Projects, which are nowhere near Nostrand Ave or the areas we are discussing, so get over the crime obsession. You missed the boat with Crown Heights.Get over yourself and quit trying to insult it.
Ahh looks like crime's rising in Brooklyn Heights. Gasp.
http://www.nysun.com/article/66092
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 11:35 AM
Thanks for that link, 11:35. I'm going to quit carrying my birthday cash and squash racket around.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 11:42 AM
11:35...Why do you think it appropriate to discuss crime in Brooklyn Heights (and even post a link about it), but not in Crown Heights?
I'm confused.
It makes no sense since everyone knows Crown Heights is far more crime ridden.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 11:44 AM
christies is still on flatbush surrounded by alot of white people.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 11:45 AM
no crime in Brooklyn Heights is different the people there murder and steal from home and work...
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 11:49 AM
Crown Heights today is a series of interesting paradoxes, from its lovely architecture to its vacant, run-down buildings, from variously hatted and top-coated Lubavitcher communities to vegan rasta Afro-Caribbean restaurants. Rising real estate values and gentrification have also recently become part of this mix.[11]
The lovely brownstones, Medgar Evers College-CUNY, proximity to Park Slope, and great train access mean that some real estate developers are already trying to shift the prices of area housing while ignoring what are still some of the highest crime rates and worst racial tension anywhere in the five boroughs.
Murders, rapes, and other violent crimes dipped significantly in the mid-90s, and continue to fall.
NYC.GOV statistics for 2007 reveal that the 77th precinct, which includes a significant part of Crown Heights, has experienced a year-to-date decline of 40% in the number of murders (a total of 9, down from 15), and of 20% in the number of rapes (12, down from 15). However, felonious assaults and burglaries have increased significantly (16.8 and 24.8%, respectively)[
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 11:50 AM
As of 2007 of the approximately the approximately 200,000 residents in Crown Heights, 77 percent were of African American or Caribbean decent, 10 percent Hispanic decent 7 percent were Hasidic Jews and the remaining 6 percent were from various other ethnice groups
The events referred to as the Crown Heights Riots were a multi-day disturbance that took place in August 1991.[9]
They were precipitated by an automobile accident on 19 August 1991 at approximately 8:30 pm that occurred near the corner of Eastern Parkway and Utica Avenue in which two seven-year-old Guyanese American children, a boy named Gavin Cato and his cousin Angela Cato were struck by a car. Angela Cato suffered a fractured leg but Gavin Cato succumbed to his injuries at Kings County Hospital.
The car involved in the accident was part of a three car motorcade led by an unmarked police car that was accompanying the seventh Lubavitcher Rebbe, Menachem Schneerson who was returning from his father-in-law's grave. As the car crossed the intersection, it was hit by another car, causing it to veer out of control, jump the sidewalk and run over the children.
Fueled by the belief that the treatment of the car accident victims was unequal the neighborhood residents squared off against each other. On one side were primarily some members of the local Chabad-Lubavitch branch of Hasidic Jewish Community and on the other were some members of the local African-American/Caribbean-American community. Stones and other objects were thrown, fires were set and shops were looted.
Yankel Rosenbaum, 29, a visiting scholar from Australia was stabbed and though his wounds were not initially considered life-threatening he passes away several hours later at Kings County Hospital. The hospital later agreed to pay the family $1.25 million and agreed that they had negligently failed to detect Mr. Rosenbaum's four-inch stab wounds for more than an hour and as a result he bled to death internally
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 11:54 AM
You must mean everyone "you" talk to in your small circle 11:44. Its people like you who beleive everything whitepeople tell you. Are you not aware that the Guiliani administration was found guilty of underreporting crime in affluent neighborhoods like Brooklyn Heights. Brooklyn Heights has a high share of pedophiles in its midst. I would rather be afraid of walking the streets at night in Crown Heights than to be afraid for my kids in the playground.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 12:00 PM
Crime may be up in Brooklyn Heights, but it will never be as bad as Crown Heights. Few areas will.
While I agree in theory with the above poster who stated that real change won't happen until the crime problem is solved, I predict that change will happen nonetheless. Many of the new, white twenty-somethings around Classon and Franklin seemingly have no qualms about walking around the neighborhood drunk at 3AM. My belief is that they align the criminal element of the area with urban chic.
And before the Crown Heights crime apologists accuse me of being a jealous renter, I own a home in Prospect Heights (which has a higher crime rate than Brooklyn Heights, but at least I can admit that).
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 12:03 PM
One of the things Nostrand will need to become a more appealing commercial street is some traffic calming. People drive very crazily and aggressively on Nostrand, and the fact that it's one way and the lights are timed for speed adds to the problem.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 12:05 PM
This sentence is especially interesting...
"The lovely brownstones, Medgar Evers College-CUNY, proximity to Park Slope, and great train access mean that some real estate developers are already trying to shift the prices of area housing while ignoring what are still some of the highest crime rates and worst racial tension anywhere in the five boroughs."
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 12:07 PM
excellent point 12:05
traffic calming should be used a tool for neighborhood improvemants allover the city. drivers are getting more and more agressive, vehicles are getting bigger and louder. an enormous safety, environmental, and quality of life issue
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 12:09 PM
i still cant believe where talking about crown heights
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 12:10 PM
"Newcomers Find Crown Heights Retail Lacking"
You mean this fact escaped them before they signed their contracts? Blind faith's a bitch.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 12:11 PM
11:30
who owns the strips? Hasids from the other side of Eastern?
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 12:19 PM
Hell, Montague St in the Heights is still waiting for its wine bars, tapas, etc (not the eighties decor looking version)...
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 12:19 PM
I love how one of Crown Heights' biggest assets according to Wikepedia is its proximity to Park Slope.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 12:21 PM
Yes..blind faith and a little investigating will take you a long way 12:11. You see, the people who are buying now are in it for the long-run. Retailers are coming, more owners-less rentals are coming,better police protection is coming. Ten years from now, like many other neighborhoods we will be looking at these prices are bargain basement.You have to understand the you live amonst three types of personalities. 1.People who make things happen, 2. People who watch things happen, and 3. People who wake-up and wonder "What the fuck happened". Which one are you 12:11?
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 12:26 PM
believe it or not if you stand on the platform on the AC at Norstrand Ave in the AM you see the who is in the area and most of the new people are young and white and have no fears about crime drug dealers etc... Most are new Europeans that are not scared of Black people and have no bad history with Black Americans... These are the friends and cousins to the people that live in Harlem also...
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 12:27 PM
"As of 2007 of the approximately the approximately 200,000 residents in Crown Heights, 77 percent were of African American or Caribbean decent, 10 percent Hispanic decent 7 percent were Hasidic Jews and the remaining 6 percent were from various other ethnice groups"
12:27...according to this, MOST of the people are not white. not that it matters to me, but clearly by the demographic of the neighborhood, seeing mostly white faces would not be the norm in crown heights.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 12:34 PM
12:26 I just got up from my 12 year nap and Ft. Greene and Prospect Hts is not the same anymore... I am wide awake for Crown Hights and Bedford Stuyvesant... Beautiful homes for around 800K... And if you want a really good deal walk around the hood and talk to people... Many are ready to retire and move to somewhere warm.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 12:35 PM
12:34 I live in the area and no census forms came to my house or my other white friends places in Bedford Stuyvesant... 2010 should tell the real story... That same data says Prospect heights is 80% black...
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 12:38 PM
"Ten years from now, like many other neighborhoods we will be looking at these prices are bargain basement."
This way of thinking is really scary. We just had the LARGEST HOUSING BOOM IN U.S. HISTORY. This does not mean that this will continue indefinitely. In fact, it probably means that it won't. You are basing this on the last 7 years and that is scary. If you look at the previous 30 years, housing prices in Crown Heights and elsewhere in the country did not move anywhere near to the extent of the past decade.
You are delusional if you think that in 10 years, these homes will go for 3 million dollars.
Totally delusional. What just happened with housing prices was an anomoly. It probably will not happen again in our lifetime.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 12:41 PM
"That same data says Prospect heights is 80% black"
That is actually a lie.
Show me that data.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 12:47 PM
To the poster who contends that Brooklyn Heights has a disproportionate number of pedophiles: please provide some evidence (a link to a survey, a newspaper article, anything that might verify your claim).
Otherwise, I don't believe you. At least the people who noted the high crime rate in Crown Heights backed it up with evidence.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 12:48 PM
You are not keeping pace with your current events 12:41. Just this morning a study was released that stated residential prices in NYC has risen nearly 20% while the rest of the country is dropping. I guess you fit in the "people that watch things happen" category that 12:26 wrote about.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 12:51 PM
You did not read the article fully then, 12:51.
Prices in MANHATTAN rose 20%.
Prices in Brooklyn rose 5%.
The same amount as my ING account.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 12:53 PM
"Condo prices in Brooklyn remained high at an average of $613,000, but the increase from 2006 was just 5 percent."
That is actually the sentence from the article. Nothing on single family home prices. And these numbers were BEFORE the credit crisis. We'll see what happens after. I guarantee you it ain't no 20% price increase.
You are seriously living in a dreamworld, 12:51.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 12:57 PM
There are pockets of crime in Crown Heights near the housing projects, the rest is lovely.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 12:58 PM
To the armchair entrepreneurs on this board with their mindless business advices...shut-up already! Show some respect for the mom/pops stores & businesses that are there, and managed to survive and even thrive all these years w/o a single cent from you or your approval. I know that just eats you up inside, huh?? What a bunch of sorry-ass arrogant pricks!
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 12:59 PM
No one denies the existence of crime in Crown Heights. No one ever said there is less of it here than in Brooklyn Hts. That's really not the point. It just gets very irritating to those of us who live here, and walk these streets (at night, as well as all day)to have crime stats used as a constant negation of all of the positive things that this community has going for it.
It's not taboo to talk about crime. But those of us who live here also talk about bettering our personal surroundings and helping those around us who have less get the services and help they need. We don't cower in our homes afraid to get out there and enjoy the architecture and parks, and to interact with our neighbors and friends. I'm not afraid to live here, period.
Also, Crown Heights North has very few abandoned buildings and/or vacant lots. The most blighted site I can think of off hand is for sale - a huge chunk of Nostrand near Prospect Place, which was allowed to fall in on itself. I would not be surprised to see a big noncontectural condo going up there in the next couple of years, and I'm sure it will have commercial space.
Those of us who love it here are indeed in it for the long run. Nostalgic on Park Ave remembers a past that was and prosperous, and a great place for a child to grow up. That part hasn't changed, and prosperity is coming back, and this time, will be shared with the Caribbean, African American, and all other neighbors who are making Crown Heights a better place for all. We believe it, and are working to make it happen.
Posted by: Montrose Morris at November 8, 2007 1:02 PM
Untrue, 12:58.
Crown Heights is one of the most crime ridden neighborhoods in New York City.
Doesn't mean there aren't lovely homes and nicer blocks, but please don't mislead people into thinking Crown Heights is a safe neighborhood. It really does no one a service.
Maybe do something to help the situation instead of spreading lies about it to boost your bottom line would be more helpful.
That's what they did in Park Slope. That's what they did in Ft. Greene and that's why they've done in Prospect Heights.
Now all I hear from Crown Heights residents are...me me me...where are the boutiques, where are the stores, why are there young men hanGing out on the corner.
DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 1:04 PM
Brooklyn Heights is host to the Brooklyn Headquarters of the Catholic Archdiocese. There are six catholic churches, two catholic colleges, a number of catholic high school, middle schools and grade schools. It is home to the Catholic Charities Society and was the subject of a manhunt that involved a priest that harmed young boys for 20 years. I don't know about you, but that is a hell of a lot of celibate employees walking the streets of Brooklyn Heights. So 12:48, you do the math.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 1:06 PM
You are the definition of ignorant, 1:06.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 1:09 PM
"No one denies the existence of crime in Crown Heights. No one ever said there is less of it here than in Brooklyn Hts. That's really not the point. It just gets very irritating to those of us who live here, and walk these streets (at night, as well as all day)to have crime stats used as a constant negation of all of the positive things that this community has going for it. "
I totally agree. For goodness sake, I have never felt uncomfortable and I know all my neighbors. Young and old.
Posted by: CrownGardener at November 8, 2007 1:11 PM
Well I don't know about you 12:53, but I purchased my home for 200k and few yrs ago and sold it for 1.3m recently. The guy who is managing your "ING" account...lol, is probably feeding you this "real estate is a bust bullshit". 12:51 knows what he is talking about. You tried to paint a picture of doom and gloom and got busted and had to come clean.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 1:13 PM
12:51 = 1:13
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 1:15 PM
Thanks Morris for saying that.
And as we are all staying here for the long run and want to raise our kids here we will work together to improve our schools in the neighborhood.
How do people feel about that PS 321 in Park Slope which is often refered to as the real asset to the Slope was downgraded to a "B"
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/07/education/07schools.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
At the same time PS 241 in our hood came a long way from the bottom and has now reached the same grade. People can make a difference-
and we will make CH better for all in the long run.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 1:16 PM
Crown Heights has great bones... Things take time... CH and BS was called Brooklyn Daily Eagle as the Pretty Neighborhood which is still is IMO.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 1:20 PM
You clearly know nothing about the grading system that just took place, 1:16.
Go read the Park Slope message boards on the subject and get a little more informed on the subject before you spew nonsense.
Those tests were based on improvement. PS. 321 already had high achieving students, so year over year they did not improve significantly...this the grade of B.
PS. 241 started with quite low scores and did show some gains in test scores, thus the grade of B.
It by no means signifies that the two schools are on par with one another.
Do your homework, then come back to us with some more informed comments.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 1:22 PM
Most crime happens between people that know each other.... Why should someone from Manhattan comming to CH worry they don't know any of the poeple in the hood...
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 1:23 PM
Oprah didn't give a shout out to Park Slope did she? Nope, it went to Crown Heights. Below is from Crown Heights message board.
----
Staceyann Chen, poet and activist was a guest and proudly announced she resides in Crown Heights then took a stroll on Nostrand Ave with the cameras accompanying her.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 1:24 PM
1.06;
Your anti-Catholic bigotry is so strong that you don't even bother to get your facts straight. Here, for example, are just a few of your mis-statements:
-Brooklyn is not part of the New York Archdiocese. It is its own diocese (called the Brooklyn Diocese) which is independent of NY, and includes Brooklyn and Queens.
-The HQ of the Brooklyn Diocese is in Clinton Hill, not Brooklyn Heights.
-There are NO Catholic High Schools in Brooklyn Heights.
-There is one Catholic college (St.Francis) in Brooklyn Heights.
Get your facts straight, bigot.
Benson
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 1:24 PM
Who gives a rats ass about Oprah or her guest?
Crown Heights is a predominately black neighborhood. Of course she would be more likely to give a "shout" to there over Park Slope.
You don't see her building a new school in Sweden, do you?
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 1:27 PM
Excuse me Benson, I am not anti-catholic. I am anti-pedophile. As long as it's okay to associate violent crimes with Blackpeople based on crime statistics, than I will continue to associate pedophiles with catholics based on statistics...PERIOD.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 1:33 PM
Please visit www.shopbedstuy.com to see the potential for CHN, and until you guys are up to speed cross Atlantic to Bed Stuy for some great restaurants, galleries, boutiques and cafes.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 1:35 PM
Who associated balckpeople with crime statistics, 1:33?
There are demographic stats listed above (from wikepedia) and crime stats listed above (also from wikepedia).
I see nothing that correlates the two.
And I also see no stats regarding pedophiles anywhere on this thread.
What I do see are a bunch of LIES made by you and now you trying to cover your ass.
Not working.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 1:36 PM
1:16
This is how the school grades generally worked:
Improving School:
Year 1 - Kids score: 40 out of 100 on a standardized test (meaning they are doing horrible)
Year 2 - Kids score: 50out of 100 on standarized test (meaning kids had 25% improvement - but of course are still doing horrible)
School gets an A for the 25% improvement (ignoring the fact that the kids are doing horrible)
Already Good School:
Year 1 - Kids score: 85 out of 100 on a standardized test (meaning they are doing pretty good)
Year 2 - Kids score: 90 out of 100 on standarized test (meaning kids had 6% improvement - but of course are still doing very good)
School gets an B for the 6% improvement (ignoring the fact that the kids are doing really well)
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 1:42 PM
The comments about current businesses failing to "keep up with the times" are spot on. It's annoying to see a store that continues to stock malt liquor, Dipsey Doodles, Uncle Jessie's peanuts, and the Daily News turn around and ask for sympathy when they inevitably fold.
I saw this happen to about a dozen businesses when I lived in Fort Greene. As a resident of Prospect Heights, I see it happening all over again. The post yesterday about Mooney's provides a good example.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 10:48 AM
Don't knock the gourmet combo of uncle jessie's and malt liquor, even though I prefer mine with Becks
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 1:42 PM
All the negative crime stuff is from the same guy who jumps on any Crown Heights post on this website. If anyone says, "Gee Crown Heights is a great place to live," he jumps in and says, "It's a crime-ridden hell hole." It's so tired.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 1:42 PM
Yeah, Crown Heights is as safe as it gets.
That's why the homes are still a bargain and that's why there are so few shops and restaurants.
The only reason Crown Heights is lacking these things is because IT'S A BIG SECRET.
SHHHHHHHH!!!!!
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 1:45 PM
1.06/1.33
Your ignorance and bigotry is appalling. You don't even attempt to defend your attempts at factual statements,when they are exposed as lies.
There is no sense trying to have a debate with you. What I have found is that ingnorant, bigotted people like you eventually wind up in the station in life they deserve: alone, bitter and wondering why the world is so unfair to them, never thinking to look in the mirror.
Benson
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 1:48 PM
No on is saying Crown Heights is as safe as it gets. It's not but I am saying that:
All the negative crime stuff is from the same guy who jumps on any Crown Heights post on this website. If anyone says, "Gee Crown Heights is a great place to live," he jumps in and says, "It's a crime-ridden hell hole." It's so tired.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 1:51 PM
this is EXACTLY the reason why crown heights is not worth million dollar homes yet.
anyone who's paying that much for this neighborhood is overpaying.
period.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 10:53 AM
Why is PS worth 3 million and BH 10 million? The stores and schools they have that CH doesn't. Stores and schools are worth between 2 to 8 million dollars even though these areas are 5 to 10 minutes from CH.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 1:58 PM
11:54 - an almost fair assesment of the Crown Heights Riots - except for the:
"squared off against each other On one side were primarily some members of the local Chabad-Lubavitch branch of Hasidic Jewish Community and on the other were some members of the local African-American/Caribbean-American community."
In reality, there was no "Squaring off" - what happened was a group of African-Americans began beating the crap out of the Jewish driver; then over the next couple of hours a large crowd of Black people began gathering near the scene and began to get worked up into a frenzy until they started yelling 'Let's go to Kingston Avenue and get a Jew!'. (most of this is on video BTW) - Which they did - Yankel Rosenbaum - and he was stabbed.
For the next 3 days many African-Americans continued rioting, throwing rocks and bottles at any Jews they saw. Marching and yelling things like "death to the Jews", "heil Hitler" and burning Israeli flags. 8 cops were shot, dozens of Jews were injured including another person who was stabbed and stores were looted
Meanwhile our wonderful Mayor David Dinkins sat by and did nothing until 2 days later.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 1:59 PM
pardon me homes, but would you pass the Gray Poupon?
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 2:00 PM
"Why is PS worth 3 million and BH 10 million?"
It's a little thing called LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION.
The cardinal rule of real estate since the beginning of time.
Ever heard it before?
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 2:04 PM
if all these hoods change to cater to white folk who think they have taste, where wil one get authetic jamaican food???
Brooks Valley on the corner of Tompkins Hancock.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 2:12 PM
WWWWAAAAAAAAAA AAAHHHHH Shit Damn. Crown Heights is not Brooklyn Heights??????!!!!!!!!
3 Words (GO F ck Yo r Sef)
The What
Someday this war is gonna end......
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 2:15 PM
Crown Heights is perfect. Every day here is like an episode from Sesame Street. All of the people represent each color of the rainbow and we get along in perfect harmony. For all of our hard work cleaning up this neighborhood, we expect Nordstom to open it's first NYC location on Nostrand, followed by Trader Joes. Then everything will be even more perfect here. We will hold hands each night and sing We are the World, while making smores in our 100 year old fireplaces. We will make love all night to our perfect husbands, and wake up refreshed, taking the train 5 minutes to Manhattan.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 2:17 PM
lol...1:36 you sound like you came from a small dusty surburban town where they still sing "We are the World". This is NY, no one is in the closet anymore. Stop pretending you don't see racial overtones.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 2:18 PM
Crime Heights is a great neighborhood.
Great place to raise kids.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 2:21 PM
I love how one of Crown Heights' biggest assets according to Wikepedia is its proximity to Park Slope.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 12:21 PM
I agree, if you have a house for a third of the price, with easy access to your higher priced neighbor that should top the list.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 2:26 PM
I love how one of Crown Heights' biggest assets according to Wikepedia is its proximity to Park Slope.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 12:21 PM
Park Slope proximity to Manhattan has always been used as a top selling point of that nabe.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 2:27 PM
It has, 2:27?
Why do all the Park Slope haters constantly talk about how far it is from Manhattan then?
Couldn't possibly be because they're bitter.
No way.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 2:29 PM
If they could put that Prospect Lefferts Gardens house in Crown Heights I would buy it.
The What
Someday this war is gonna to end...
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 2:32 PM
If they put this house in Park Slope, I'd buy it.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 2:35 PM
thanks 12:26 for a dose of reality. There are haters on every blog.
Crown Heights is a wonderful place to raise a family. It has good pockets and some bad, and I would rather spend my money here then in other parts of brookylyn.
The Hassids opened up a panini shop on Kingston, south of Eastern parkway - I'd like see something like that or even a decent coffee joint on Kingston. And please all you haters out there, don't tell me a sandwich shop or coffee house would be bad for the area. You might be suprised that local folks enjoy these "ammenities" too.
Someone is buying that organic produce at the grocery store.
I count 4 vacant storefronts on Kingston Avenue (not including the burned out building "for sale" on the corner of Kingston and Easter parkway).
Its only a matter of time........
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 2:42 PM
Park Slope, Brooklyn Heights, Clinton Hill, Prospect Park South were all at one time what Crown Heights is. Crown Heights has many beautiful blocks and homes and It's a wonderful thing that it's being consisdered as affordable/spacious housing and many are making investments of this sought in this particular area. When gentrification occurs it welcomes an opportunity for massive change as what is know happening in Crown Heights,within Crown Heights not only are ammenities lacking such as banks,gyms,shops, quality supermarkets, but even so current business owners operating within crown heights particulary Nostrand Avenue are not growing and adapting to what is taking place around them. Many have the same store fronts, products, services that they carried 5, 10, 20 years ago. There not at all apealing to the new residents.Brooklyn is beautiful, it's hip, it's were it's happening, it's diverse. It's really not about catering to yuppies, but as business owners, the skill of survival is knowing how to grow and adapt with the times of a changing market.But indeed I would certainly like to see more than a strip of hair salons, beauty supply stores,carribean eateries, mix use store front spaces with no flair or curb appeal. People!!!It wil be 2008, the developement is massive in Brooklyn, let's get on the same page.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 2:46 PM
It's LOCATED LOCATED LOCATED less than 5 minutes from Crown Heights! 400k per minute.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 2:48 PM
I agree it's only a matter of time, 2:42.
Problem is, you are paying prices to live there that do not reflect that attitude. That's the problem.
People bought homes for 200K in Park Slope and Ft. Greene when those neighborhoods were "a matter of time" but you are paying a million dollars for the same thing.
And you are doing it AFTER a major housing bubble meaning that the same rate of return that lots of folks in those other neighborhoods saw does not necessarily mean you will see the same thing.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 2:49 PM
"Why is PS worth 3 million and BH 10 million?"
It's a little thing called LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION.
The cardinal rule of real estate since the beginning of time.
Ever heard it before?
That is why CH isn't worth 3-10 million then, but should it be worth a milion.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 2:50 PM
Reading 11:30's post it seems there is a lot of blame to share in the rise of crime in Crown Heights. The good thing is the same people can turn it around and make it work for good this time.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 2:52 PM
People have been hailing the gentrification of Crown Heights for over 10 years now.
The only sign of it I see is inflated home prices.
Most of the rest of the neighbrohood remains unchanged.
That's WRONG.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 2:53 PM
http://www.nysun.com/article/66078
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 2:55 PM
www.shopbedstuy.com what your neighborhood could have.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 2:58 PM
Crime Heights, LOL
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 3:01 PM
1:06,
So, let me get this straight. One nefarious priest = an epidemic of pedophiles in Brooklyn Heights. You are the most intelligent person I have ever encountered.
And equating the area's Catholic churches and services with pedophilia is akin to aligning the mosques of Bay Ridge with terrorism.
Again, give me facts, not conjecture.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 3:05 PM
No one is saying Crown Heights is as safe as it gets. It's not but I am saying that:
All the negative crime stuff is from the same guy who jumps on any Crown Heights post on this website. If anyone says, "Gee Crown Heights is a great place to live," he jumps in and says, "It's a crime-ridden hell hole." It's so tired.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 3:09 PM
C'mon, you all love to talk about Crown Heights, good and bad. The fact that there are over 120 posts about the neighborhood says a lot. It's another great NYC neighborhood. There are good points and bad points, like most NYC neighhborhoods.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 3:13 PM
2:49..I completely understand what you are saying. But I remember in the late 80's during the last housing bubble, housing in Brooklyn Heights were selling for $400,000. People were saying the same things you are saying now. There is always a period of quiet following this kind of economic climate. But like silicon valley and microsoft, something is coming that will create a new generation of multi-millionaries that will see Crown Heights as a jewel (after we clean it up, mindly). And this new generation of people are who we have to prepare for. Don't be afraid, dig in for the long haul and you will see your return.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 3:14 PM
Brooklyn rocks!
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 3:16 PM
yeah 3:13....crown hieghts, upper west side...all the same shit
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 3:18 PM
3:05 take your head out your ass. I am not agreeing with his/her comments about catholics and priest, but if you read most of these comments about crime and Crown Heights these are whitepeople talking about Blackpeople. They are just hiding behind statistics. And if you cant see that, than you are just as ignorant as he or she is. You need to stop defending pedophiles in the spirit of being a good catholic, and blackpeople need to stop defending street thugs in the name of being black and proud. LETS TAKE BACK THE STREETS FROM THEM ALL.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 3:21 PM
Sounds like things haven't changed much since 1991 in Crown Heights.
You scare me, 3:21.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 3:26 PM
1:59,
get your head out of your ass.
love,
a fellow jew
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 3:29 PM
"People bought homes for 200K in Park Slope and Ft. Greene when those neighborhoods were "a matter of time" but you are paying a million dollars for the same thing."
Not me, I bought my Crown Heights 3-story brick brownstone in 2001, at far less than prevailing rates. It's worth 3X that now. The hosue is great, the block is great. There's more crime than some other parts of NYC, less than some others. Retail definitely needs to improve. But since I'm a Brooklyn native and lifelong resident, I know where to go to get my good retail and I'm not a cowering newcoming yuppies who's afraid to walk the streets. If you're afraid of Crown Heights, simply stay away. We residents are doing just fine.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 3:34 PM
Change is scary and sometimes radical 3:26
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 3:35 PM
"We residents are doing just fine."
Well you are all apparently not doing fine or there would not be a thread here with 100 comments based on an article in the Sun where your residents are whining that they have no place to shop.
Part of the reason people live in a city is to be able to walk to stores, shops and markets. I certainly wouldn't spend a million dollars to drive to other parts of the city to do all my shopping. That's what New Jersey is for.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 3:38 PM
3:34 bought a crackhouse for 120K...its "worth" 360K now
congratulations!!!
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 3:44 PM
3:34, pay these haters no attenetion. They missed the boat and lost their retirement in the Enron scandal...lol. Welcome to the neighborhood.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 3:47 PM
hey 344pm:
No one is saying Crown Heights is as safe as it gets. It's not but I am saying that:
All the negative crime stuff is from the same guy who jumps on any Crown Heights post on this website. If anyone says, "Gee Crown Heights is a great place to live," he jumps in and says, "It's a crime-ridden hell hole." It's so tired.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 3:50 PM
That's right 3:47, Yo 3:34, meet me on Nostrand and Park Place, I wanna introduce you to some Jerk chicken, cocoa bread and a stout. (This is how we do in Crown Hts.)
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 3:52 PM
Silly rabbits, crown heights will never gentrify...due to the hasids
its really that simple
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 3:54 PM
3:21,
If anyone needs to remove their head from an orifice, it is you, my friend.
Kindly point to any post on this thread that DEFENDS pedophiles in the name of Catholicism. I'm waiting...
Your analogy to black people/crime stats doesn't hold up, either, especially because you have not provided any statistics about Catholics or priests. If you can provide a credible link that says something like, "50% of sexually abused children were assaulted by Catholic priests", then I'd concede your point. But you have not done so, and cannot do so, because there is no truth to your point.
However, the point about African Americans and murder, rather than weaved out of whole cloth, is empirically verifiable, as the following link illustrates:
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/tables/oracetab.htm
Also, few, if any, posters on this thread have identified their race, so your contention that the above commentary on crime in Crown Heights is "white people talking about black people" is baseless.
Having said that, I wholeheartedly agree with your assertion that both types of crimes must be fought.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 3:57 PM
Um, silly 3:54, I think after reading over a hundred post you would get the clue that we are blogging about North Crown Hts. The Hasids are across eastern parkway considered Crown Hts south.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 3:59 PM
Just a reminder, that like Bed Stuy, Crown Heights is a HUGE neighborhood. Much of CH South is home to the Lubabvitch Hasidic community mixed with a large Caribbean population. The Crow Hill section of CH, centered around Franklin Ave and the Jewish Hospital Apartments has a growing population of younger, post college age white kids, along with the larger African American population. Crown Heights North is a mixture of Caribbean, African American, Hispanics of African descent (Dominicans, Panamanians, etc, as well as a growing Caucasian population. Then you have the section of CH that borders East New York and Flatbush, and the part bordering PLG and Prospect Hts. Weekesville and the area past the Albany Houses are another section.
The problems and tensions of one area are not necessarily the problems of another. A single block can change from crossing one street to another. We have blocks upon blocks of wonderful streets here. Yes, we have too much random street crime and violence. There are too many guns in the hands of idiots, and we need more police on the streets, and less tolerance for unacceptable behavior. We have young black men killing each other at a scary rate, and most of the reported crime in our neighborhood is black on black, not black on everyone else. We have much work to do.
But all of that negative behavior does not take away from the far, far more positive aspect of the neighborhood. In the vastness that is Crown Heights, there is much beauty, so much personal pride of ownership and self, and a growing realization that we are worthy of not only our landmark status, but of our collective pride- in holding on to what was good, while everything and everyone around us told us we were worthless. Everyday middleclass people kept this neighborhood together and standing. The recent influx of new homeowners of all persuasions have ignited a renewed passion for change in the neighborhood. We will take this neigborhood back from the minority who have highjacked it in the public mind, but never in reality. The people who live here, and have written in on this thread in a positive way, are a part of our renaissance. Keep tuned.
Posted by: Montrose Morris at November 8, 2007 4:05 PM
We will take this neigborhood back from the minority who have highjacked it in the public mind, but never in reality.
Not really the best choice of words.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 4:11 PM
Obviously, I was speaking of the criminal minority, not a racial one.
Posted by: Montrose Morris at November 8, 2007 4:14 PM
3:57, you are living in a country that has used bad statistics, faulty intelligence, and manufactured poll numbers to convince you to pay for a war. If you are still blinded by entertainment news than there is nothing I can say to convince you that you are wrong. But, one thing you and I both know. And that is everycase that involved catholic priest and pedophiles were settled without admission of guilt. And part of the reason was to erase the statistic numbers of priest convicted of these crimes. So the public who rely so heavily on stats (hint) would not know the magnitude of the problem. You wanna parade articles of arrest records for neighborhoods that does not take into account those same arrest that were thrown out of court. Any metro city that has a aggressive police force has high stats for arrest, but how many lead to convictions. And we all know where the heavy policing takes place. So go ahead, hide behind your stats, and continue to let the New York Post be your bible. You are not gonna convince me otherwise.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 4:20 PM
Those statistics are from the Bureau of Justice. Not the New York Post.
You are like one of those crazy old people that talk to themselves and make no sense.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 4:37 PM
I was speaking methaphorically 4:37. I am obviously way over your head. I am so sorry. I thought I was conversing with an intelligent mind. (Would you like to talk about the new episodes of Dexter dude?)
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 4:45 PM
if you there is no where to go out and you are just going to cook in your home AND you don't live anywhere near midtown, why wouldn't you move to the suburbs? do you people really want to live in the city? you value having a house over the city experiences?? why are you in new york then?
FYI is not easy at all to turn an african american neighborhood into a gentrified white neighborhood. Do not compare to Fort Greene it's much closer to manhattan, and also having lived in prospect heights, i do not think that it's a safe neighborhood either. it's got a long way to white gentrified.
anyway, why not move to a closer hood with more to do like williamsburg? also, no ghetto area in prime williamsburg and it's all white people. you'll actually fit in! huh! imagine that!
jeez, this crown heights seems pointless.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 4:57 PM
DAMN, 4:45, I felt that bitchslap all the way over here in Jersey.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 5:01 PM
"We residents are doing just fine."
"Well you are all apparently not doing fine or there would not be a thread here with 100 comments based on an article in the Sun where your residents are whining that they have no place to shop."
Take it from me (I'm a journalist) - if you beieve everything you read, you're in big trouble, pal. I'll say it again: we residents are doing just fine.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 5:05 PM
Same shit, different day.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 5:06 PM
"3:34 bought a crackhouse for 120K...its "worth" 360K now"
Not exactly bud, but your envy, jealousy and bitterness are quite revealing.
We CH residents are doing just fine.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 5:07 PM
"Take it from me (I'm a journalist) - if you beieve everything you read, you're in big trouble, pal. I'll say it again: we residents are doing just fine."
I certainly don't beieve you.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 5:07 PM
3:34, pay these haters no attenetion. They missed the boat and lost their retirement in the Enron scandal...lol. Welcome to the neighborhood.
Don't worry - I can handle whatever these losers dish out. I'm doing great in CH!
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 5:08 PM
"I certainly don't beieve you."
Cool. We agree to disagree.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 5:11 PM
10:29....nothing wrong with wanting businesses in the neighborhood that cater to the taste of the residents. And that is just what they have in Crown Heights which is predominantly African Americans with West Indian background.The produce markets and meat/fish markets cater to the residents by providing products found in the caribbean homeland.This culture is used to doing more for themselves and have made do without those services or amenities.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 5:19 PM
11:24....seems to me you are safer walking around at night in Manhattan also.....cause if you stay in your Manhattan studio....especially if it is on 5th avenue....you just might get beaten to death even though you have security cameras and doormen all over the place.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 5:30 PM
Thumbs up for Montrose Morris and his posts.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 5:54 PM
More and more young white people are moving to crown heights. It will just continue.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 6:22 PM
It was entertaining reading the cat fights about pedophiles, and priests, and stats, and crime, and putting the blackman down. All of which had nothing to do with Crown Heights. Those people had way too much time on their hands. But, it was entertaining to read. I guess that means I have too much time on my hands as well. I score for anonymous 4:45. Eventhough he/she may have been a little misguided with the catholic facts he/she emerged as the most thoughtful and compelling arguing voice. And in no-way did it sound like some schezo oldman.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 6:26 PM
This has been one of the longest conversations about Crown Heights on Brownstoner ever. It just points out that CH is like a mini-city where the personalities of streets and blocks change corner to corner. It was the same in the 1950s. Back then, many railroad-flat tenements housed working-class and poor people along Nostrand Avenue; middle-class managers and professionals and their families had apartments with step-down livingrooms in elevator buildings along St. Marks Avenue (lots of doctors' plaques under the canopies in those days, and doormen, too); and the most affluent had brownstones and limestones along streets like Dean, Prospect, and Eastern Parkway. The area was also changing, like today, if in a different way. Middle-class and affluent African-American families had to break the "gentlemen's agreements" that restricted access to good housing; speculators bought and flipped buildings, "block-busting" as they went along; and community organizations did their best to maintain a racially-integrated, economically-diverse community against the odds. Cheap mortgages to suburban housing for white families (legal in this country until the 1960's and still widespread today), middle-class urban renewal projects in other parts of the city, and the Fulton Street riots in the 60's, sadly, dashed a lot of people's hopes. But from neighborhood residents' comments here, no doubt things are on the upswing. Look, I'm old enough to remember when Prospect West was considered undesirable, and for a lot of incontestable reasons people concerned for the safety of their families wouldn't live there. I also remember when friends on Central Park West discouraged my parents from buying a six-room apartment at the Dakota (for $25,000!) because the West Side was hell. Crown Heights? The next Gold Coast.
Nostalgic on Park Avenue
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 7:31 PM
I'm curious why everyone wants to live in the slope, prospect heights, crown heights, clinton hill, fort greene, etc. etc. Are other Brooklyn neighborhoods not hip enough for you? I find these neighborhoods to be crowded, dirty, with no parking and noisy. There are great neighborhoods in southern Brooklyn like Marine Park where you can get a house for under 500K with a garage, no alternate side rules, good shopping, clean streets, good schools, and places to eat. Marine Park and the salt marsh nature center are steps away as well as Historic Floyd Bennett Field. It's a short bike ride to Coney Island or Riis Park, or any other beach in the area.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 7:32 PM
"Are other Brooklyn neighborhoods not hip enough for you? "
Um, yes?
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 9:02 PM
never heard of marine park.
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 9:09 PM
Wow, long read of some fascinating rants, raves and whatever...permit me to say just a few things about some of the historical observations about NA's commercial history by Nostalgic on Park Avenue - you remember and describe it well, as do I - and I am committed to bringing that back. And to Montrose Morris, who astutely pointed out that much of the strip was owned by a few families - you are dead right there as well -but that too is historical. Let me tell you that there is SIGNIFICANT change afoot behind the scenes at this very moment. The strip has been the habitue of many commercial lenders of late. They have a fondness to lend to such stable properties - and have done so in meaningful amounts over the past 3 months. And will continue despite the upheaval in the credit markets. What that means is fresh capital is flowing along the commercial avenues - and that capital will seek to improve the return profile of the avenue - working with the strong local merchants, as well as bringing in sorely missing services best provided by national merchants (think banks, UPS/Mailbox Etc, cellular service providers and such)
And to all those who think that the SUN article was just a fluke of timing - you are so wrong. There are savvy players who are shaping, supporting and guiding things to transform CHN's major commercial thoroughfare.
If you cast aspersions without having been there because of the crime level - you are missing it, because it is happening in front of your very eyes. The people are there, and the change is happening.
If anyone is so interested as to move beyond the GUEST label, and wants to meet along the Avenue so I can persoanlly share with you what I know - then email me back at - wingo947@hotmail.com. That way you can join forces and be part of the group that as guest 12:26 put it so eloquently makes things happen rather than be a part of group 3. That was worth the read alone of this entire thread! Sorry for the long mmessage...but I figure if you came back to this thread after all of today's earlier trash talking, it might as well be worth your effort.
Posted by: wingo947 at November 8, 2007 11:16 PM
in response to guest 7:32pm...the neighborhoods you mention are the closest to manhattan and this is what makes them so attractive, although you may find them crowded and dirty. marine park is too deep into brooklyn for most of the people looking to live closer to manhattan.
my two cents...
Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 11:27 PM
How dare the guy in the article move TO Crown Heights and then complain there aren't any amenities! I own a brownstone in CH and like other posters stated "we residents are doing just fine". The real residents that is - not the newly minted "I didn't have the chance to buy an overpriced house in Manhattan or Park Slope so he figured he'd move to CH and wait for the hip businesses to open" residents who don't want to experience a neighborhood in all its glory but want to change the neighborhood regardless of the people who made and make it what it is.
Well, guess what? I like the fact that my children can walk around the neighborhood past houses where they know everyone and vice versa or children actually play out front and people congregate on their stoops and have impromptu get-togethers. It's part of what makes CH great.
And maybe the houses will never sell for millions on a regular basis BUT "we residents" tend to buy and hold. "We residents" didn't buy at the top of the market looking for a quick flip. Most of all, "we residents" bought into CH because we saw the value in the neighborhood - not as up-and-coming but as a long-term prospect.
Posted by: guest at November 9, 2007 4:01 AM
r u all tellin' me u dont disagree on the whole thang of BLACK MEN and WOMEN sreaming "HEIL HITLER"....IN DA FUKIN' BRNX....i must be da only sain nigga on da face of da "white man's" Earth...stupid
Posted by: guest at February 28, 2008 2:31 PM
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