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November 29, 2007
Inside Third & Bond: Week 15
After all the time spent eating over the Thanksgiving holiday, we thought the timing appropriate to show you our plans for the Third & Bond Street kitchens. The rendering above illustrates the basics of the look – clean and calm. In designing kitchens, we start with an idea of what buyers will be expecting and then delve into spatial planning in the context of the units themselves. After that, we circle back with ideas for finishes.
Our most common kitchen layouts are those with the island, the U-shaped, and the L-shaped. In designing, we pay close attention to the amount of counter space, the arrangement of appliances (e.g., you want the dishwasher close to the sink), and the right amount of space to move between counters and doors.
Another design decision is to make enough depth for the refrigerator so that its front will line up with the front of the counter. This gives us the built-in fridge look without requiring that we purchase special built-in refrigerators. You can see how this looks in the excerpted island plan shown here.
The appliances are fairly straight-forward: we need a stove, oven, microwave, refrigerator and freezer, and dishwasher. We want Energy Star appliances (those marked by the US Environmental Protection Agency as energy efficient) wherever possible. Our experience with GE has been good—we used GE’s Profile series at J Condo. This time we are thinking about the Café series. We like the look a little better, the refrigerator offers side-by-side doors which we think buyers will like and it’s a little bigger. Another cool aspect of the Café series is that the range comes with two ovens that can be used simultaneously—not to be confused with a broiler and an oven or a broiler inside an oven. In terms of the look, we explored options other than stainless steel, such as lacquered panels to match the cabinetry, but didn’t want to pay a premium. We debated the importance of the ice maker, but since the fridge we like comes with one that’s no longer an issue. At this point, we like:
• GE Café Gas & Dual-Fuel Range (five burners & two ovens)
• GE Café 2.0 cubic feet microwave
• GE Café Energy Star 25.4 cubic feet side-by-side refrigerator with water/ice dispenser (see picture)
• GE Café Energy Star Dishwasher with SmartDispense Technology
Because the kitchens are open to the living space we will be using the same flooring as in the rest of the residence. This is a better flow and avoids an awkward transition in flooring.
We are thinking of CaesarStone for the countertops, but are still exploring our options. CaesarStone is a composite material that doesn’t have any VOCs.
The look shown in the rendering here, with the countertop material extending down the side of the island is something we are trying out. It’s meant to provide a subtle edge to the kitchen—to suggest a boundary between kitchen and living space.
The backsplash is stacked subway tiles. We talked about glass panels but didn’t like the solutions to deal with the seams—messy caulking. We also looked at some other tiles but decided to save the expenditure for amazing bathroom tiles. It’s best not to get too complicated with tile in the kitchen because we also have to think about outlet installation.
We haven’t selected cabinets yet though they are likely to be dark, as shown. One company we’re interested in talking with more is Material Processing Systems. They are located in Brooklyn and can deliver “green” cabinetry.
But it’s not just the planning and selections that are important when it comes to kitchens: the execution is critical to getting the kitchen that we are envisioning. When we visit model apartments misaligned cabinet doors, crooked tiles, and the like bother us. It’s not good to walk into a room and think it looks crummy even though it’s expensively stocked. When it comes time, we’ll be just as picky about the execution of the kitchens as we were about designing them.
Inside Third & Bond: Week 14 [Brownstoner]
Inside Third & Bond: Week 13 [Brownstoner]
Inside Third & Bond: Week 12 [Brownstoner]
Inside Third & Bond: Week 11 [Brownstoner]
Inside Third & Bond: Week 10 [Brownstoner]
Inside Third & Bond: Week 9 [Brownstoner]
From our lawyers: “This is not an offering. No offering can be made until an offering plan is filed with the Department of Law of the State of New York."
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Comments
I think its an attractive design and its nice to know you take a lot of care in picking out the appliances.
It sounds like you've made up your mind but I will say that the side by side fridges cause quite a problem for anyone who entertains. The fridge side is too narrow to store large trays (or pizza boxes if your target buyer is a single male). Just a thought.
Posted by: Mrs. Limestone at November 29, 2007 11:36 AM
I just visited the Material Processing Systems website. Looks like they do some really cool stuff. Do you happen to know whether they have a standard product line for purchase? Their site seems to suggest that they cater exclusively to custom designs in multi-family buildings.
Posted by: johnife at November 29, 2007 11:47 AM
Wow! Shnazzy-doodle.
Very Minimalist, German, Chic.
Lovely to look at but a pain in the rear to live with. Any little useful thing you put out will look "wrong" -who needs it?
I hate hiding away all my beautiful kitchen equipment as if they were sex toys.
Posted by: guest at November 29, 2007 11:48 AM
I've been impressed all along with the great deal of thoughtfulness you're putting into this project.
Kitchen has a nice layout, but I concur with Mrs. L on the fridge.
Also, I think the whole wenge thing is already looking really dated--personally, I would love another color cabinet. But the cabinet style is great, and nice that they go all the way to the ceiling.
Posted by: tinarina at November 29, 2007 11:52 AM
sterile and cold, and all that grey and black really clashes with the warm tone of the floors. better rethink this one.
Posted by: guest at November 29, 2007 11:56 AM
you could try poured concrete for the countertops. i just did mine, they look beautiful.
Posted by: guest at November 29, 2007 12:00 PM
I like this, generally, with one fairly major comment. In the photo here, at least, the sink has nothing behind it to prevent water from spilling off the back side and onto the floor. This is something I see in a lot of new condos and I could see it being a huge pain to deal with on a daily basis. Think about when you wash dishes (which you do regularly if you cook, even if you have a dishwasher) - water *always* spills over the back, but then it's caught (at least in my apartment) in the section of wall/tile behind the sink. I'd be really annoyed if I had to mop my floor each time I used the sink. Maybe just an inch or 2 of raised countertop behind the sink would improve it? Or make it an island/breakfast bar type thing. Or just move the sink so it backs onto the kitchen wall.
Otherwise, looks nice!
Posted by: guest at November 29, 2007 12:11 PM
RE appliances: i have GE in my new condo and I am so so happy. there were some dents from either the installation by the sponsor, or by work men (i did a lot of decorating). anyway, the GE guy replaced the fronts for free, and he also helped us pull out the dishwasher to look behind it which had nothing to do with him.
anyway, there is something to be said for working with a big american company like this. reliable appliances and good service.
one thought - i too would NOT go with the side by side and with the ice/water dispenser.
1) the filter/dispenser mechanisms break after a couple of years and you end up chasing down all the little parts
2) the filters clog up
3) spending money and time on the filters is a pain.
mind you, when i had a fridge like this it was fridgedaire, not GE, so maybe that was it.
BUT,
4) agree with above poster about not liking narrow freezer. we have the pull out freezer on the bottom style now and love it. we buy a lot of food, and it always seems to fit.
Posted by: guest at November 29, 2007 12:16 PM
Sam- I do not get that now 2 people are saying the same thing. Do either you or #12 have any personal experience with a sink in this position. I think it's totally speculation on your part.
I have a very similar kitchen to this, and it is by far the best kitchen i have ever had, and i'm in my 40's and have lived all over.
re the colors, cabinets, etc... that's personal choice and all, but I whole heartedly recommend this set up. the placement of the appliances, etc.. I think it'll work for cooking and living and kid watching.
regarding the minimalist style, do think it allows the buyer to go any direction. i live in a condo building where i've seen my neighbors go from homey to antique to contemporary to really modern with similar type kitchens and the kitchen just fits in...
Posted by: guest at November 29, 2007 12:26 PM
water in these new deep sinks does not pour out.
Posted by: guest at November 29, 2007 12:35 PM
What about a vent for that stove? And why stainless? Am I the only one who has completely tired of this stainless thing? Not to mention, all of the fingerprints.
How 'bout some Avacado colored appliances...a bit of retro
Posted by: guest at November 29, 2007 12:38 PM
Sam and number 12 are two different people I dont waste time like that.
The sink may be deep but the goose neck is very high and believe me, unless you are careful each and every time you turn on the water, it will splash off the counter, ditto if you put a large pot or pan in there. it does not splash if you are very careful, but you know, its a kitchen, you're not always careful.
That's all. things spill you wipe them up. not a fatal flaw but something to keep in mind.
Posted by: sam at November 29, 2007 12:42 PM
Looks like a high-class morgue--put a raw turkey on that countertop and you've got 'CSI: Poultry.' I can't picture baking cookies here, no matter how many cute fridge magnets etc. I envision to desecrate its funereal minimalism. I have a feeling you're not aiming for a cookie-baking crowd, however...
Posted by: Brenda from Flatbush at November 29, 2007 12:43 PM
I have a sink something like that in a deeper island but my sink is fairly shallow. Water gets all over the counter all the time and it's a big pain in the neck. Since I also have a configuration where the kitchen is open to the living room, I can appreciate the design aspect of having all countertops at one height.
I think the real solution here is providing a deep enough sink so the splattering is eliminated. What do all of you think that minimum depth needs to be?
Posted by: guest at November 29, 2007 12:45 PM
I concur with other comments about the side-by side. Do you know what I love in a fridge? When the freezer is on the bottom. Oooh yeah.
Also, if you're planning for an open kitchen two things to keep in mind (maybe I do a lot more cooking than the average person, but here goes):
1. Are you putting a super-duper vent/air handling system in there? Nothing worse than making your living area smell like whatever it is that you're cooking.
2. Totally agree with 12:11 about the sink. I was hesitant to mention it because I thought that it just indicated that I'm a slob.
Finally, the design of the kitchen seems at odds with the character of the remainder of the house. Any thoughts to bringing its appearance more in keeping with that?
Posted by: guest at November 29, 2007 12:53 PM
I have an extra-deep sink in my island, and splashing isn't a big deal. There are occasional incursions of water, but these are just minor things that can be wiped up with a sponge - in fact, probably these incursions are caused by the sponge when I go to put soap on it (I have a soap dispenser built in by the faucet). They're not a wet hazard, just a pain because I like my countertops uniformly clean and shiny. I think the configuration is worth it because I love being able to wash dishes and cook and talk with my guests, watch my kid, etc. I like the design! I'd do less gray though, gray always seems cold to me even though people say it's neutral.
Posted by: Jen KG at November 29, 2007 1:00 PM
The sink needs to be at least ten inches deep, but do not get a goose neck. Get a lower faucet with a built-in flex pull. that way you can pull the faucet to hit the target and not get water all over. Water splashes on any sink but it is just easier to wipe it off a counter with a backsplash than off the floor.
Also, if you are giving a party, having a deep sink means you can keep dirty pots out of eyelevel sort of. The whole open plan kitchen takes some getting used to but it can be a lot of fun as long as one does not take the Bauhaus immaculate aesthetic too seriously.
Posted by: sam at November 29, 2007 1:02 PM
Glad you decided to go with the Ice maker. I just bought a condo that came with a fridge that didn't include an icemaker and I find it to be an incredible pain in the ass. I am actually considering replacing what is a brand new fridge just to get the icemaker.
Otherwise, it looks nice. What is the minimum amount of counter space that you try to hit?
Posted by: guest at November 29, 2007 1:08 PM
What is the purpose of the sofit above the kitchen? Is this just a design element or does it serve a functional purpose?
Posted by: cggirl at November 29, 2007 1:08 PM
Can you make this entry shorter and do the "after the jump" thing? They're so long...
Posted by: guest at November 29, 2007 1:16 PM
I think you absolutely need a hood over the stove, if you're going to grill in such an enclosed space you're going to have the smoke alarm going off continuously. Regarding the sink and water splash, we have an island and never have a problem of water going over the back.
Posted by: guest at November 29, 2007 1:46 PM
i have a sink in an island just like this with a deep sink with a built-in flex pull. Water does not get everywhere. Been in this place for a year and never had a problem and never even thought about it prior to buying my condo.
the sink negatives are probably incorrect.
also, do you need a stove hood? is there venting? i'm thinking yes.
Posted by: guest at November 29, 2007 2:18 PM
The kitchen is not as "charming" as I would like, but it looks like it will function well enough. One function looks like it could be improved: the lowest shelves of the upper cabinets are too high. The old standards were 18 inches above the counter. I know that the current fad is to raise the cabinets, eliminating the need for a soffit at the top,(or perhaps eliminating an open storage area on top of the cabinets, which can look cluttered). It also makes the whole kitchen seem larger and less hemed in. The problem is that when the lowest shelf is raised up to 24" above the counter, most people upnder 5'6" (most women) can barely reach the first shelf, much less the second. So we end up hating the kitchen, or feeling very uncomfortable in it.
Ameraleed
Posted by: guest at November 29, 2007 2:19 PM
your looking to $750 a sq/ft or more and we can't even get a sub zero!!! come on! GE is well made stuff, but it makes a well designed kitchen like that look cheap.
Posted by: guest at November 29, 2007 2:36 PM
Gimme a break, 2:36, Sub-Zero has come out at the bottom of so many reliability surveys it's a wonder they're still in business.
Posted by: johnife at November 29, 2007 2:51 PM
How about some bookshelves for cookbooks at the end of that island instead of extending the countertop?
Posted by: guest at November 29, 2007 3:24 PM
johnife - GE is very well made. it will last and not cost a fortune to repair.
re cabinets - i have high cabinets now and have no problem (i'm 5'7"). for help, i do have a folding 2 step step ladder nearby. my neighbor is very short and has a ladder too.
i do like the higher cabinets in any case because it allows for a lot to go on the counter.
Posted by: guest at November 29, 2007 3:50 PM
ok, my 2c. Reverse the range/sink placement; advantages: for what you save on simpler plumbing (island plumbing is a pain) you can have a nice hood over range; extend the counter 8" or so, and owner's 2 kids can eat pancakes right off the pan while sitting at their cool counter stools. Elinates splashing problem which I'd definitely have when I wash dishes.
Concur on s-b-s refrig. Bottom freezer is more efficient and better for your back. GE profile 23 cft is not bad. Personally I'd go for the 19.5 cft at just over a grand, but I recognize my ethos is not luxury-condo level.
Consider some glass-fronted cabinets, they look a lot better than an unrelieved solid wall of doors.
Posted by: cmu at November 29, 2007 4:35 PM
I would suggest you off set the sink or the stovetop. Otherwise you cannot have 2 people working in this kitchen without having to do a major dance to get around one another.
Posted by: guest at November 29, 2007 5:20 PM
To get a more build in feel regarding the refrigerator, you should consider getting a counter depth fridge. It makes for a more together look when flush with the rest.
Posted by: guest at November 29, 2007 5:33 PM
"Consider some glass-fronted cabinets, they look a lot better than an unrelieved solid wall of doors."
Nah, I prefer a nice clean look instead of shadowy images of all the stuff in the cabinets.
Posted by: guest at November 29, 2007 6:09 PM
Great comments this week -- thanks for the input. Keep'em coming!
Posted by: Alison at November 29, 2007 6:10 PM
I agree with 1:46, ventilation above the range is absolutely necessary if you cook. what's the point of a fabulous kitchen if you can't use the range? i'm currently looking to buy an apartment and ventilation or window in the kitchen is a must.
Posted by: hk4bk at November 29, 2007 8:53 PM
stoner,
why are some comments deleted from the thead?
is it a technical glitch or some such?
When one writes a comment and then sees it and then goes back and it is missing, one wonders. I mean I'm not offended or anything I just wonder if even you know why posts evaporate.
Posted by: guest at November 29, 2007 9:30 PM
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