House of the Day: 325 East 17th Street

according to the weekend ny times "recently sold" page the brooklyn example was the primo mary kay listing with the circular room.. It took what looked like a 15% haircut on ask, from 1.6 something 1.4 something, to move it even though it was only on the market for a short time. Perhaps this indicates the top end of this area has corrected.

Posted by: guest at November 19, 2007 1:36 PM

like it

cant afford it

Posted by: guest at November 19, 2007 1:37 PM

I don't know, 1:36. That house needed hundreds of thousands of dollars of work. I get the feeling it was more "I got an offer! Take it!", then a correction for this neighborhood. You kind of have to judge by a top-end, move-in condition house's selling price to judge any correction. BTW, I agree this house is overdone. It won't sell above 1.55 but again, wouldn't take that as a sign of correction. There's a handful of really special properties out there in the hood that would be better judges of where the market is.

Posted by: guest at November 19, 2007 1:43 PM

I checked out the block and area last week, but did not return for the open house. It's right off Cortelyou, which is good. But the particular block this house is on is kind of a gamble, I think. I don't know if it falls within the historic area (?) but there is a very unattractive older fedders-type building across the street, and an empty lot towards Beverley, and the houses on this block are huge but in great disrepair. I would like to learn what the future development angle is for this area, since it would be a disaster to buy and then watch your neighbors' homes sold & torn down by developers. The houses are so massive that it's understandable how some owners can't keep up with the repairs and maintenance.

Anyway, this house looked enormous from the outside. The exterior needs cosmetic and maybe some roof work. Lots of satellite dishes on this and surrounding homes. My experience with houses in this area has been that the pictures make the details and woodwork look amazing, but once inside, you discover the tremendous amount of work that is needed.

Posted by: guest at November 19, 2007 1:48 PM

I agree with you, Mr. B, on the design choices. The living room and dining room are cool, but I would brighten up all of that dark wood with color, and better lighting. Crystal chandeliers don't go with Craftsman detail anyway. The kitchen is very oppressive. Why choose such dark cabinets, and so many of them? I'd either go for glass faced cabs, or open shelves, or at least paint them white. I'd go with simple Craftsman cabinets, too, not these anybody's kitchen Home Depot specials. As much as I love wood, if those beams are original, I think I'd have to paint them too. I have a feeling they were added, tho. Stove is definitely overkill. Fence - blech!

Anyway, those are personal choices. Price is really high anyway, but owner might come closer with renos that better complement the age and style of the house. No one is going to like that kitchen, for one reason or another. I agree, they should have just kept it a nice middle class house with some nice detail, instead of trying to make it something that it's not.

Posted by: guest at November 19, 2007 1:52 PM

For a couple of hundred thou less, you can get this couple's other listing on Park Place in Crown Heights. That house was move in ready, completely upgraded, and very spacious and beautiful, and tons of detail. A better buy, I think. It was an Open House listing here a couple of weeks ago.

http://www.corcoran.com/property/listing.aspx?Region=NYC&ListingID=1112969

Posted by: guest at November 19, 2007 2:15 PM

1:48: i think some of your complaints about that block could be said for most of the blocks in Ditmas Park. Most of the blocks i have seen contain many large houses that are in various stages of disrepair. Many with lots of satellite dishes which probably came about from renting out parts of the houses. I guess the point is, do you think the block is a gamble or the entire neighborhood?

Posted by: guest at November 19, 2007 2:36 PM

2:36--my question was about that particular block, because of potential future development. I have no problem with the neighborhood--I like it a lot. My point was, that while areas of Ditmas are protected and landmarked, I don't know if this block is, and hence, can imagine future developers paying for those huge houses and knocking them down, because they're in great disrepair.

Posted by: guest at November 19, 2007 2:41 PM

I'm not 1:48, but since you asked: At these prices, I'd say the entire neighborhood is a gamble. Same for many other fringe areas. The next few years is going to prove that the prevailing theory that all neighborhoods in Brooklyn will rise was a lie. Redhook is the first to de-gentrify, but it won't be the last.

Posted by: guest at November 19, 2007 2:41 PM

houses in this area will be going for 50% of these prices in five years.

Posted by: guest at November 19, 2007 3:03 PM

What utter nonsense, 3:03.

Posted by: guest at November 19, 2007 3:05 PM

I'm 2:41 and I think the 50% comment is a total exageration. But I'd expect a 25% loss--followed by a decade or more of flat prices.

Posted by: guest at November 19, 2007 3:06 PM

You couldn't really say Ditmas has already gentrified...more like its decline has been arrested. The question to me is, would people who can afford $1.5 mil rather live in North Jersey, where they could find a similar house, and pay 4x the taxes but have better schools? You're still an hour on average from Midtown.

As for this house, it seems to be in the unfortunate middle zone between "could use a full renovation" and "you could move right in and not change a thing." I don't think that appeals to many people.

Fence is good for dogs and kids, though.

Posted by: guest at November 19, 2007 3:07 PM

it's all speculation about what is or isn't a gamble. i think it's a gamble personally, but really, how do i know.

i have bought 3x, and each time in an area that was more developed in terms of gentrification, amenities, etc... and, also in closer and more convenient locations, so obviously, i'm not a total pioneer type.

i think that you have to be really comfortable right away with where you live, if so, great. the gamble here is that many people aren't going to move to an area surrounded by poverty and with not so many amenities, and kinda far for this much money.

Posted by: guest at November 19, 2007 3:18 PM

It is far, that's true. It's pretty much like living in the suburbs, except much grittier, and more expensive.

Posted by: guest at November 19, 2007 3:25 PM

If you want a townhouse in park slope but can't afford 2-3 million, than you come to ditmas park and get one in the 1-2 range (that's the discount for not having park slope like amenities). Because as nice as all those amenities are you can still have them in a 5 min drive or be in Tribeca by car in 12 min. I don't think people are saying if you can afford a house in a place with more amenities you shouldn't go for it, but for half the price of park slope you get a house. Jersey is whole different ballgame. I think its pretty clear, if you're a city person than you'll pretty much live anywhere but the burbs and pay a huge premium to do so.

Posted by: guest at November 19, 2007 3:32 PM

im a city person and I would never pay 1.6 to live in a house with a yard very far from work. I would just move to the burbs. Or get a new job.

Posted by: guest at November 19, 2007 3:45 PM

As soon as you start talking about driving into Tribeca, you tell me you ARE in the burbs. In mindset if not in geography.

Posted by: guest at November 19, 2007 3:58 PM

went you start using "drive time" to describe distance you're screwed.

Posted by: guest at November 19, 2007 4:00 PM

I am 2:36 - 1:48/2:41: i suspect the zoning in that area (even if its not a landmarked block) makes it unlikely that developers will start knocking down those houses. I would imagine if the zoning permitted it you would have already seen that happen and you haven't. Of course who knows if that will change. As for the neighborhood as a whole (and i say this as someone with no vested in interest in Ditmas Park since i don't live there) i think it will do well as long as the city continues to do well. Ditmas Park may be an hour from midtown but its more like 30-40 minutes from wall street. So for people looking for a large home for a relatively inexpensive price, and good commuting time, its a good deal. I know people that have bought in the area for those reasons and i don't think they are the only ones that think that way. But who knows, i am not psychic.

Posted by: guest at November 19, 2007 4:33 PM

Run-down brownstones in FG are listing over $2M right now even for the 3 story ones. But you don't need a car there. There are some in Clinton Hill still listed under $2M, but if you're not willing to walk 8-10 blocks to the subway, you need a car for much of CH because the G train goes nowhere.

Posted by: guest at November 19, 2007 4:37 PM

Well, actually, I would rip out that pine tree in the front as my first order of business if I ever bought the place. I've seen the house from the outside, and don't understand why anyone would plant such a large, wide (and ugly) tree right in front of what appears to be the living room area. It blocks any and all natural light.

Posted by: guest at November 19, 2007 5:28 PM

This house, and others in the area, present an interesting conundrum. After drooling over the enormity of this and other Victorian Flatbush properties, we concluded today that buying a house of this size, no matter how much of a deal it seems relative to Park Slope or Fort Greene brownstones, is not the right thing for us. We don't really need THAT much space, and we're not sure we want to be slaves to the upkeep required to really maintain a nice house. They are beautiful homes, but way too big, and far away. We'd rather go with a smaller property closer to downtown Brooklyn & Manhattan.

Posted by: guest at November 19, 2007 5:37 PM

an hour is a long way to midtown (so is 40 minutes) to live in a not so hot area.

i too like space, but found more like 2000 ish with a yard in a condo. my husband's commute is maybe 15 minutes tops and mine's like 20-25 min. plus, we have everything walking distance and have made great friends in the building that we have a lot in common with.

this seems like it would be isolating in every way.

and, expensive.

Posted by: guest at November 19, 2007 5:38 PM

I like the chandelier in the bedroom. Nice Home Depot touch...

Posted by: guest at November 19, 2007 5:44 PM

personal choices are just that. I also understand why a family chooses to live in 800 square feet in the east village because they could "never" move to brooklyn. To each his/her own. But remember there are people for a variety of reasons see the logic at this price range to choose it over a smaller space in a more amenity driven nabe. They just value certain things more than others.

Posted by: guest at November 19, 2007 5:54 PM

so at what point are we going to say that you might as well live by the beach and add an extra 10min to your commute than live in bensonhurst.

Posted by: guest at November 19, 2007 6:02 PM

That's the point where you move to Queens.

Posted by: guest at November 19, 2007 6:14 PM

I would love to buy this house, and turn it into a neighborhood art/music school or something (as well as live in it). Along the lines of the Slope Music School on 9th Street... and since it's not landmarked, you could paint some really nice colors.

Posted by: guest at November 19, 2007 6:23 PM

You're right 5:54. I was just so blown away by the size, being used to cramped spaces, that I was overwhelmed.

Posted by: guest at November 19, 2007 6:24 PM

Disclaimer: I live in Ditmas Park. That said, the price does seem a little high. But no more than $200K high. To correct some other comments here, however:
1) My commute to Times Sq. is 35 minutes. It takes FAR LESS time to do so than it does from Park Slope on the F line.
2) Amenities here are much better than Carroll Gardens used to have when I moved there in the 1980s, or than Ft Greene had in the 90s. There's no comparison with suburbia at all, other than the look of the house and lot. There are excellent restaurants, cleaners, great ethnic food, etc. etc. all within walking distance.
3) The schools are not bad here at all. PS 217, nearby on Newkirk, is pretty good. My kid got a great education at Hudde middle school a few years ago, on Nostrand. There is no comparably good middle school in Carroll Gardens. There are excellent high schools not far away (Murrow, Midwood), unlike Park Slope. These schools compare favorably with most suburbs.
4) Big space is REALLY nice; once you have it you don't go back. Also, there is pressure for these spaces from big Jewish and Asian families in nearby nabes. And I never waste time anymore hunting for a parking place (I know, sounds suburban, but it is surely worth something.)
So the block is not landmarked. That's the problem. Otherwise I bet it would go for asking price.

Posted by: guest at November 19, 2007 6:37 PM

"houses in this area will be going for 50% of these prices in five years."

A rare comment that makes a lot of sense given the state of the economy. Much talk of recession. A stock market that's on life support. Layoffs mounting. Banks in trouble. Dollar plummeting. The worst of foreclosures not over.

The mainstream media is a notoriously lagging indicator. Remember, "no housing bubble"? Now, it's "no major price drops".

Posted by: guest at November 19, 2007 6:46 PM

Yeah the only problem with the 50% comment is it has never ever happened on a historical basis...even during the great depression.

Posted by: guest at November 19, 2007 7:15 PM

6:37 is right on the money. I live near the Newkirk subway stop and it's 20 minutes to work in Soho. Closer than the Upper East Side and I have 3 floors, 6 bedrooms and a parking space. Don't have to drive but it's awfully nice to be able to, considering that all Brooklyn is subway-challenged on the weekends with track work.

All you haters out there, PLEASE keep hating on our neighborhood since it's no longer the best kept secret in Brooklyn.

Posted by: guest at November 19, 2007 7:23 PM

it takes me 15min from 7ave to get to grand st.

no way in hell you're going from newkirk to anywhere in manhattan on the Q in 20min

Posted by: guest at November 19, 2007 7:26 PM

B train, boss. Express.

Posted by: guest at November 19, 2007 7:28 PM

"Yeah the only problem with the 50% comment is it has never ever happened on a historical basis...even during the great depression."

And the prices increases of the last few years are also unprecedented. Stay tuned.

Posted by: guest at November 19, 2007 7:39 PM

7:26, it takes you 15 from 7th & Flatbush to get to Grand St. From 7th & 9th St on the F, it is an hour in. Especially if you're a couple of blocks from that subway stop and maybe a couple of floors up in your building. There's no comparison for most of the Slope on the F to the B.

Re 50% drop in value. Unfortunately, this did happen, in real terms, in the '70s. People abandoned the city. You could buy an Upper West Side brownstone for $20K. They sold for that when they were built 80 years before, while average income went up from $1 a day to maybe $100 a day.

But could anything like that happen again? Not even close, unless we are hit by multiple unlikely plagues.

Posted by: guest at November 19, 2007 7:47 PM

THE B TOO.

I TAKE THE B TO WORK AND THERES NO WAY!!!!!

at least 25min from getting on the train to getting off the train.

stop it.

Posted by: guest at November 19, 2007 7:47 PM

I timed it just the other day, 22 minutes from Newkirk to B'way Lafayette on the B.

Posted by: guest at November 19, 2007 7:52 PM

And 7:52 is not me, boss. So there you have it.

Posted by: guest at November 19, 2007 7:55 PM

How long including the walk and wait times?

Posted by: guest at November 19, 2007 8:09 PM

So after saying each chooses what is important to him/her. I thought it appropriate to say why I chose it understanding there are plenty of arguments not to choose it as well.

1. Space. I think most people would choose more space over less, but I understand that at some point more space is pointless, but for me I work from home and have two young kids so it's important.

2. Driveway and garage. I think this is a nice alternative to have, it is not a necessity to live. I have supermarket, coffee shop, bagels, deli, restaurants, and the subway within walking distance. Plenty of people live in houses and apartments who don't drive. But since you have a driveway, its easy to get around and is a premium I would say as I shop for a family so I go to fairway and load up. No double parking with kids in the car, lugging groceries in while getting ticketed, etc. I could go to c-town, the food coop, or the organic market just like in park slope. It's a choice I have.

3. Community. I found it (not knowing at the time I bought) to be the most friendly welcoming nabe I have ever lived in. There are playgroups in people's houses during the winter and on playgrounds during the summer that everyone on the flatbush family network is invited to. Also the adults make friends easier and within a month we were barbecuing with friends over from the nabe.

4. House. I often looked at brownstones and told myself, I must get a 20' wide brownstone because otherwise its too narrow or I want the kitchen on the basement floor so it can go out to the garden so it can be bigger than take up my 900 sqaure foot 1st floor. I need a renter or the brownstone needs more light, etc. When you walk into a 34' wide house that is sundrenced on all sides, it never feels cramped or split up between four floors.

5. I wanted a neighborhood in nyc that was never going to be truly gentrified but always have a diversity of ethnic and economic backgrounds. It's the most diverse that I have ever seen. I chose and continue to to live in nyc for this reason. For 1.5 million I know I could live in a very nice house in darien or jersey with great schools.

6. Investment. My philosophy is that if a nabe has good transportation, stunning architecture, and is priced at a significant discount to other nabes because of a lack of amenities than it has a good chance of rising. This has happened to countless nabes in manhattan, brooklyn, and queens where amenities slowly came around. As few as they are here now...two years ago there was only vox pop and picket fence. Remember park slope was not exactly comparable to the upper west side on amenities and brooklyn heights was about as far as a manhattanite would go during the 90's. Its also a unique neighborhood for those who want a detached house/mansion, but not in some small town in jersey or ct. There are comparable apartment nabes or brownstone nabes in brooklyn, but not single family victorian homes. Uniqueness usually counts for something ($$) in nyc.

7. Commute: I think this is issue is slightly exaggerated. Its 35 min to midtown on the express Q and 20 min to downtown. There is also this amazing express bus that zips you downtown even faster through the brooklyn battery tunnel. Unless you're in the north slope, the F-train is longer. Further, unless you're walking distance in manhattan, my commute on the subway was always 30 min door to door if not longer going from uptown to downtown.

8. Park. I'm virtually on the park. I run 3x week in the park and I'm closer now than I was in the north slope. Last, but not least. I love tennis and being within walking distance of the parade ground courts might just be the most important fact to me.

9. Schools. I think this is a wash. If you're sending you're kids to private school than I know its going to be brutal to get them in anywhere in brookyn. In terms of public, the nabe has decent public schools and bad ones just like the other nabes and most kids experiences are that at some point they will commute by subway, car...elementary, middle, and highschool.

10. Moving. And last, but not least, I know I don't have to move again (I've now lived over my 15 years in nyc in 3 apartments on the UES, two on UWS, one in EV and WV, and one in hell's kitchen, and one in park slope), but for a job. I have enough space and I and my kids can commute anywhere in nyc.

Anyway, that was my decision and I still at times drool over a classic 7 on the upper west side, but that's 3.5 million now. Maybe some day.

For the record, I understand the negatives all too well, but given the price point, the positives far outweiged the negatives and I do know its the other way around for a lot people, but for those looking in the nabe, I think knowing why people moved here might be informative.

Posted by: guest at November 19, 2007 8:31 PM

I live in PLG and take the train from Prospect Park. My commute to 42nd street is 40-50 minutes. To be safe, if I need to get in for a meeting, I leave an hour. I don't know you people are zipping along!

Posted by: guest at November 19, 2007 8:34 PM

Its called an express train that is not over utilized in manhattan like the red/green lines

Posted by: guest at November 19, 2007 8:43 PM

For those who don't believe prices will decline - check out the recent article in no less than Fortune magazine which says definitively they will. Granted, NYC will not see as steep declines as some places (i.e. Miami) but they will nonetheless be in the double-digits, and that's for Manhattan, so you can assume Brooklyn will be a little worse.

Posted by: guest at November 19, 2007 9:14 PM

I find the decor of this house oppressive - all that dark wood - yuck.

Posted by: guest at November 19, 2007 10:08 PM

Why do these Ditmas houses all look so grand on the inside but so dowdy on the outside?

Posted by: guest at November 19, 2007 11:36 PM

There are a lot of clueless posters, especially those that think the commute to Manhattan from Ditmas Park West is over 30 minutes.

Really, ppl shouldn't comment on what they don't know. But then again, that helps keep the neighborhood a hidden secret. So there is some upside to the ones that are mis-informed and propogate their mis-information.

In the Spring through Fall, Ditmas Park West is absolutely beautiful. I think everyone here should at least visit it and then take a 22 minute ride to Broadway-Lafayette from an Express B train on Newkirk Ave.

Maybe you will also want to visit some of the new and wonderful resturants on Cortelyou as well.

Anyway, get the facts for those that are truly interested in living in the City with a true neighborhood feel.

Posted by: guest at November 20, 2007 12:51 AM

Mary Kay also has the listing and there are more pics from different angles:

http://marykayg.com/html/0506.html

Posted by: guest at November 20, 2007 1:04 AM

What are the GOOD new restaurants on Cortelyou? So far I have only tried Picket Fence and it is fairly underwhelming.

Posted by: guest at November 20, 2007 2:46 AM

Sam-

Fort Greene is "mildly overpirced" for who...perhpas you?? Not for Villagers from the city who want that type of housing mins to wall st and would not consider the options that say..uh you can afford.

Posted by: guest at November 20, 2007 8:17 AM

im sorry no one is getting from newkirk on the B to broad/laf in 22min.

and of course Ditmas park is nice. Have you been to any old neighborhood in any new england town? People like them because they're pretty.

also most of Ditmas Park is really far from Cortelyou.

Posted by: guest at November 20, 2007 8:57 AM

Um, isn't that Mexican place the one that gives everyone the runs? I vaguely remember that discussion in a Brownstoner thread on new retail on Cortelyou.

Posted by: guest at November 20, 2007 10:56 AM

You don't need a car in Victorian Flatbush. There are plenty of subways in the area. And there is even the Express Bus to Manhattan for those that can stand being in the highway traffic.I take the subway, as it drives me nuts to sit in traffic, especially if paying $5 a trip for the bus.

Travel time from Cortelyou Q to Atlantic Ave is about 15 minutes. Then transfer for 2/3 to Wall Street is about 15 minutes more, so with walking and transfers it's 40 to 45 minutes minimum. But if stay on the Q and are going to express stops of Canal, 14th, 34th, 42nd Street it's much quicker then doing the transfer.

Posted by: guest at November 20, 2007 2:19 PM