House of the Day: 158 St. John's Place

I saw this house almost a year ago when it was first listed with Townsley & Gay. A few months ago it was transferred to another broker (small outfit--the name escapes me). Now, Prudential has the listing. This house needs a ton of work. A lot of the details and woodwork need to be restored. They look much better in the pictures than in person. The "kitchen" is located in the tiny and dilapidated extension jutting out of the parlor floor. It's nothing more than a stove. I suspect that is why there have been no takers in the almost year it's been listed. The price has remained constant over the time it's been on the market.

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 1:41 PM

Tiny, tiny backyard.

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 1:43 PM

The listing describes this place as "A grand old dame of a house, fallen on hard times, waiting to be rescued."

Is that a poetic way to say "gut reno?"

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 1:47 PM

Doesn't need a gut-reno, just a ton of repairs & upkeep issues. And yeah, that backyard is microscopic.

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 1:53 PM

When I saw this listing first spring up on Prudential's site last week, the broker had initially written something to the effect of "Soaring entry door so tall that Magic Johnson would fit" or similar. I guess someone told her to remove that description.

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 1:55 PM

The price seems to reflect the work that needs to be done, if you look at what other comps in the North Slope have gone for.

Done up, a house on this block would probably go for close to 3.2 - 3.4 million.

I'd guess you could conceivable sink 250K - 350K into this place and make it a gem, no?

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 1:56 PM

The "282 De Kalb" error above shows how Minsky subliminally infiltrates all the posts on this site!

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 1:58 PM

Hmm... if the "price reflects the work that needs to be done", 1:56, why hasn't it sold at that price in almost a year, after three broker changes?

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 2:01 PM

Thanks for the update, 1:59. I was up all night worrying!

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 2:02 PM

My aunt lived in the same house on 3rd St at the park. (Currenly valued at over 3M) The parlor floor kitchen is so small because it was originally only a butler's panty, complete with dumb waiter. The actual kitchen was what this house has listed aa the garden floor dining room. The closet in the garden flat was the pantry. Yes the kitchen will need major upgrading. ALso these house do have very old, beautiful dark wood. Which also makes the houses very dark and gothic. Which is fine if your a vampire. Love the woodwork, hate the gloom

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 2:04 PM

1:59...parent of the year.

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 2:04 PM

Until I see proof that the home has indeed been listed for over a year with other brokerages, I'm skeptical to believe posters on Brownstoner, many of which may or may not be brokers with an agenda.

You'll have to forgive me.

From my knowledge of recent sales in this area, this price is fair for a home that needs some work. Maybe something more like 2.7 would seem better, but that's what offers are for.

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 2:04 PM

Looks like Safran Foer is bored today, again.

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 2:05 PM

Hey...I'll take the lovely poetic words over "The What" garbage.

It's appropriate for a PS listing.

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 2:07 PM

Hey broker/seller/person with vested interest at 2:04: You can call up Townsley & Gay and ask for a Mr. Schiller; he had the listing first, at the beginning of the year.

THEN, you'll SEE THAT THIS HOUSE IS STILL LISTED with the previous broker at Slope Heights Realty--it's their FEATURED LISTING, at 50K less, and they've already had various open houses in October.

http://www.slopeheights.com/

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 2:13 PM

2:13....if you'll notice in the pictures, the one listed on Prudential has solid burgundy carpeting going up the staircase, while the home listed on the site you linked, has an oriental style runner going up the staircase.

I believe this is a different home.

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 2:20 PM

rehab....i thought you liked the boys with their pants down?

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 2:27 PM

2:20--it's the same house. That oriental runner is on the stairs for the top floors. It is the SAME house. Call the broker and ask him the address.

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 2:29 PM

This is a perfectly good house for a multi-millionaire who wishes to live in central Brooklyn and is looking for a project to keep him/her busy.
There's bound to be one out there and that's all you need.

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 2:50 PM

This will be a lovely home for a young couple from Manhattan, who in 1999 paid 200K for a 2 bedroom and just sold it for 1.9 million.

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 2:59 PM

2:13 and 2:29 are correct. I saw this house with Slope Heights realty at one of their open houses. It is the same house that was listed with Townsley. It's a really nice house with lot of beautiful wood details. It will need much renovation to get it in shape. The yard is too small for my taste. The lots behind this house are very long and eat up the yards of this house and the ones next to it.

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 3:23 PM

The question is what to do with the dreary mahogany that seems to be smeared all over this house like peanut butter. Bet it will cost a bundle to have all that removed.

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 3:35 PM

Cost you a millio clams to get this done right.

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 3:36 PM

that's absurd, 3:36.

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 3:40 PM

ok facade looks decent, maybe 900k. look, if grandma polsihed the linoleum it still needs to be ripped out.

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 3:43 PM

Are those sprinkler pipes I see?

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 3:47 PM

you can renovate from top to bottom with incredible finishes for 500K.

and that's assuming it's a total wreck, which this does not look to be.

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 3:48 PM

depending on how much damage has been done to the woodwork and how many layers of paint are gooped onto the walls and ceilings, yes, it could cost close to $1 mil. to really restore this pile. That would include rethinking the kitchen spaces, gutting the bathrooms, probably converting to gas and updating plumbing and electric. New windows, too? foundation work? who knows?

True, all the details are there, and that's what makes it an expensive proposition. If everything's already gone, then you just gut and go...

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 3:49 PM

maybe if you are the GC, architect, engineer, and expiditor

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 3:50 PM

Do a lot of people who own in Manhattan sell and move to Brooklyn? Me thinks not.
They may move to Paris, they may move to the West Coast, to Greenwich, but to Brooklyn?

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 3:51 PM

will only cost 500k ... everyone has their hand in your pocket

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 3:52 PM

500K????? you can get another house for that much... I say $40,000 a floor and with a good honest contractor...

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 3:54 PM

you are out of your mind with 40k. you'll spend 100k on an architect alone easy

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 4:05 PM

i think 40K per floor is much more accurate than a million.

100K for an architect is ridiculous.

we're not talkin meier here.

my boyfriend is an architect and they'd draw up plans for 20K.

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 4:08 PM

If you spend 40k/floor, the house will be worth 2.4 when you are done, but Home Depot will be happy (for a change, right the What?).

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 4:11 PM

i'm sure he's kidding.

either that, or a moron.

people don't just pick up and move to paris for the hell of it, or the west coast.

ever heard about a little thing called a job?

kids? school?

MOST people now buying property in brooklyn are coming from manhattan.

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 4:12 PM

i just redid two bathrooms with all high end finishes for 20K and a kitchen for 50K. sanding the floors about 3K.

tell me how it takes a million to restore a house?

24K gold plumbing?

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 4:13 PM

3:35, what idiot in their right mind would remove mahogany? What are you going to replace it with IKEA panelling?

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 4:22 PM

Construction should not be no more than 10-20% of the purchase price

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 4:25 PM

Some people just can't pick up on sarcasm on the internet...

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 4:26 PM

with all the hatred on the internet, do you not wonder why, 4:26?

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 4:28 PM

OHHH i remeber when this use to be a good site with nice well behaved people...

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 4:33 PM

4:33....i'm guessing that was before brownstoner became a for-profit business entity also...

good does not always equal profitable in this world of the internets.

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 4:37 PM

hmmm... let's see... you either flame or provide a forum for others to anonymously flame homes that people are trying to sell (which often represent most of net worth)and at the same time this forum acts as a way for ultra-competitive brokers to snipe at each other anonynously...doesn't take a rocket scientist to see how the site will create alot of bad will albeit many profitable clicks

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 4:50 PM

You know, a lot of potential buyers do not read this site. And anyway, most brokers I've spoken to have remarked that houses featured on this site, especially those that are ruthlessly flamed, sell quicker.

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 4:54 PM

keep telling yourself that as you profit at their expense dude

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 4:56 PM

Huh? I'm 4:54 and I'm not the owner if this site.

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 4:59 PM

i just hired an architect, contractor, landscaper, millworker and decorator to make changes and decorate a brand new condo.

remember that you will continue to pay an architect and decorator as you keep them on the project. and, if you are doing it right, you will still need them. People with this kind of money have jobs and can't manage this with out a lot of help. You will probably need them for about a year or more. The clock will run the whole time too.

I spent $175K on 2000 sq. ft. just to take the place to my specs and finish it. I had no issues with my workers either. There were no costly mistakes or that kind of thing. I think that the guy saying $500K is maybe low. I am pretty sure that this is a gut job.

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 5:05 PM

then don't wrrite in the first person as if you are

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 5:06 PM

Agreed 5:05, I saw this place and figured it needs about $600-800K for a high-end renovation. Needless to say, I passed on it.

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 5:07 PM

This website is like Consumer Reports, but for property. As a buyer, I find it very useful. There are quite a few HOTD listings that have not been flamed, actually.

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 5:16 PM

People need to understand the difference between a restoration and a (gut) renovation. You don't "gut-renovate" a brownstone full of original detail - unless you like to pay for something and then throw it away.

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 5:19 PM

THANK YOU, 5:19.

a voice of reason.

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 5:26 PM

yep, like I said, a millon clams is a real possibility

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 5:34 PM

Right. That's why I said high-end renovation, which to me means restoring all that beautiful mahogany and plaster work that NEEDS total restoration, new mechanicals, new kitchens and baths, roof, windows. And the minimum that will cost you, especially because of all the detail you have to restore, is 600K-800K.

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 5:35 PM

"you can renovate from top to bottom with incredible finishes for 500K."
I am in the middle of a renovation and that is not true. You find what bad things lurk behind those brownstone walls and floors. You learn what windows cost and what it costs to fix plaster and how much paint 4 floors of brownstone can take. And you haven't even thought about wall paper. Your money flows like water. You make painful decisions and stop looking at top end fixtures because you don't want to be depressed. You can probably do a very nice job for 500K, but not a knock-out job.

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 5:36 PM

I still think to RENOVATE a home like this would cost 500K to do a bang up job.

A million to GUT the place, of course keeping details in tact.

My hunch is that this is a renovation job, NOT a gut job.

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 5:42 PM

yes, yes, yes, you do need to gut renovate if things like electricity and plumbing need to re-done...but, you don't need to throw it away. many times, people dismantle parts and save in storage and then bring them back in.

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 5:58 PM

No, no, no you don't. You open small areas of the plaster, rewire and repipe, and then you replaster over it. No need to gut it. No need to remove plaster work or wood work. I've done it. It ain't rocket science.

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 6:05 PM

a handy person who doesn't mind doing this over time could do it for 300K, easy.

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 6:07 PM

i can see why this building is a tough sell.
once you are talking 3 million dollars, which I believe is what this place really would cost when you include renovations, you have a lot of other options other than park slope - ie: a manhattan apartment for instance.

also, understand that this is why condos are selling in the million dollar range in brooklyn. buyers who want a place to be perfect in a decent/good neighborhood (like myself) may not have the money (or time or lifestyle) to take this on. many can however, get into a condo and spend money on smaller changes or paint or furnishings, etc... and have a really nice place. the 200K per year earner can't afford a brownstone in a good neighborhood anymore.

10 years ago, you could get into cobble hill/park slope brownstone for under a million easy and both neighborhoods were good even that far back.

now, if you have the same income (which i do, my income has not risen as fast as housing has), and you want a brownstone, you are looking at some not so safe/nice hoods. it's a much harder decision.

for some, they'd take that same million and buy a cheaper brownstone in less established neighborhood and do just enough work to get by until they had more money. however, you have to be comfortable in that hood because gentrifying a primarily black hood with probably projects is way harder than gentrifying cobble hill was which was mostly italian (for instance).

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 6:09 PM

We didn't have to do it in our current house, but I have had to replace all electric and all plumbing in an old house before, and I sure as heck didn't remove all the walls! Crazy! The house had all original, amazing plaster walls with curved ceilings. I would never remove that and never even had to consider it. Both the electrician and plumber replaced everything by only knocking some holes in walls then plastering them back up again.

Those here saying you have to do a "gut job" to replace plumbing and electric are newbie first-timers totally new to renovating, and in their naivete have been taken for a ride by the contractors who insisted they had to do "gut jobs" on their houses.

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 7:58 PM

I saw this house when it was re-listed with Townsley and Gay late this past summer. The broker at the time said he was a friend of the owner. He told me the owner is holding out for his $2.8million because he thinks the detail ("goth" describes it well) in the house is worth that money. When I told the broker that totally renovated brownstones very close by had sold for about the same, the broker responded that the owner was aware of that and thinks the detail is worth more than a renovated place. I disagree when you're talking about close to $3million, but others may not.

The broker told me anyone who showed any interest in the house was thinking more in the $2million range. I got the sense the broker agreed that the place was way over-priced, which could explain why he's no longer listing the place. The place needs sooo much work. If I recall correctly, it had been broken up into apartments/studios and was in quite a state of disrepair. The owner lives in a part of the house (garden floor, I think) and he was also renting a room upstairs and use of a bathroom to a woman. The photos don't look anything like the real thing -- unless someone has really cleaned it up since I was inside. My feeling is, anyone in that price range is going to want to do a very high end renovation/restoration. $500K is on the low side, I believe. All in, it would end up being one of the most expensive houses in the North Slope, that's for sure. More than I'm willing or able to spend.

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 8:35 PM

What always amazes me about stories like 8:35 shared with us, is how the seller thinks it's better to just let the house sit unsold for a year and keep paying taxes and who knows what else on it, while refusing to take perhaps say, $2.3 million for the house. When he could have had $2.3 million earning income for him in investments. Right now the thing is sitting there earning him nothing. As for the "details" well yeah sure they're pretty, but they're cookie-cutter brownstone details, sorry. They're not particularly unique like one finds in a truly special house by a significant architect. You can find these details in any number of houses and not have to overpay for them either.

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 8:50 PM

I can corroborate 8:35's story. I was also told the owner was inflexible on the price. He doesn't live there anymore, he's retired and moved on. Another broker told me he was trying to talk some sense into the owner, and asked if I'd like to make a lower offer. I think they were hoping many people coming in at low offers would convince the owner that he wasn't going to fetch his price.

This house is overpriced, and even the current broker knows that--hence her listing comment about how "two parties might buy it together"! Have you ever seen that in a listing??

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 9:16 PM

Everyone that says it will take 500k plus to renovate/restore these homes are simply morons who the contractors/electricians etc are preying on -it's you are uping the prices. IT DOES NOT REQUIRE YOU TO PAY THIS MUCH TO UPGRADE A HOME. You're morons, idiots who have been ripped off and are driving the prices up. STOP IT!

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 9:44 PM

You know 9:44, I'm with you as far as complaining about prices that have been driven up too high, but at the same time, I must say, renovation is expensive. We've been looking at much more modest houses - in the range of 1.3-1.5 and they've all needed work. We are aiming for a simple, clean renovation - nothing fancy - and even with that in mind, the bids are expensive. It's sadly incredibly easy to spend $200K on much less space than this house, with much less work. So estimating $500K for this size house, with all the detail that you'd want to preserve (and preserving detail is always more expensive than just truly gutting and not worrying about saving stuff), does not seem so off the mark to me - in fact, it could be low. I still think the owner is nuts though - this is not even in a good school district, and there are much nicer homes in District 15 for less than what this will be when done.

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 11:13 PM

1:58PM

Thanks now we can all conclude you are completely on drugs.

Posted by: guest at November 15, 2007 8:35 AM

Does the price include the services of Lurch, the butler?

Posted by: guest at November 15, 2007 9:30 AM