‘Dead’ Hook: When Gentrification Doesn’t Take

one word - black people

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 9:40 AM

that's 2 words

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 9:46 AM

Red Hook was way overhyped. I love Red Hook, walk there frequently for Valentino Pier and Fairways, but always feel some relief when Carroll Gardens. Red Hook is gritty and interesting, but is off-the-grid (i.e. no subway) filled with not so light industry, dirty and derelict. Not to mention some large notorious public housing projects.

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 9:51 AM

Well, I chose to live here, so I'm hardly impartial. I don't want Red Hook to gentrify more than it has, but I sure am happy having a huge and well-stocked supermarket, some of the best restaurants in the city (Good Fork, Alma), a great coffee shop (Baked), and all the other slightly odd but wonderful shops we have. And it sure makes a difference being able to walk out and smell the sea air, or sit by the water. I love it. I don't see the pockets of "nice" going anywhere, nor do I see a huge change coming any time soon to the rest of Van Brunt, the dirtiest street in the borough....

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 9:52 AM

and the recent news that the Smith/9th St 'F' station will be closed for 9+ months isn't helping...

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 9:53 AM

THATS HOW DUMD YOU ARE BLACK PEOPLE IS TWO WORDS

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 9:54 AM

If there were decent public transportation there might have been a chance. There was an article in Nov. 4 New Scientist called "Equation can spot a failing neighbourhood" that looks at how lack of public transportation and access is a pretty good predictor of economic success in a neighborhood.

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 10:00 AM

I agree with 9:52. I live in nearby Carroll Gardens and I go to Red Hook frequently to shop, to drink, or just to hang out at the waterfront and get some sea air. I love the neighborhood, and part of me is a big indignant about the assertion that the area is "busting" and not living up to all the recent grand "next big thing" expectations. But another part of me is VERY leery of the inescapable side effects of gentrification -- namely, making an area more homogenous and less funky and unique.

While I don't want to romanticize Red Hook's rough edges, I don't necessarily think a slower pace of change leading to gentrification is a bad thing for the area!

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 10:01 AM

Object lesson to everyone who posts on here about moving to a neighborhood because you like that it's not too "gentrified," yet also hope for more restaurants / organic groceries, etc. to open in the next few years. You can't on the one hand pray for the side effects of gentrification and on the other hand expect the neighborhood not to get overrun with people just like you. Can't have it both ways.

Better that Red Hook stay underserved by transportation, so it can never really gentrify the way the rest of Brooklyn has.

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 10:13 AM

i think #1 is being sarcastic

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 10:13 AM

Agree with 10:00, especially as this was a harsh lesson learned in my many hours playing Sim City

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 10:20 AM

Well Well Well. Now we see that gentrification doesn't work out. Dumd asses pay over a million dollars for a house and the are no amenities in the neighborhood. No coffee shops (I have to go to Gorlla in the slope) No restaurants and no bookstores. Take a walk down Fulton Street it's a shithole. Clinton Hill is in plenty of trouble! Plus when the crash gets underway, you will see the U-Hall truck all over the place.
The pioneers will be leaving and maybe the Hood can return back to normal.

The What

Someday this war is gonna end....

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 10:24 AM

9:52, Agree about Good fork, but Alma is horrible except for the view, yet alone classify it as one of the best in the city lol

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 10:41 AM

Red Hook, Bed Stuy and other fringe markets were buoyed by the real estate boom. Now the pixie dust is fading away and the long-standing problems with each area can't hide any longer. Just last night NYPD fired 20 shots at a unarmed teen in Bed Stuy. Hope you enjoy your brownstone enough that you don't have to venture out anywhere.

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 11:23 AM

I love red hook but let's get real. Without subway, there's not much hope for it in the long run period. I think eventually it's just going to become a depository of big box stores I'm sad to say, unless some serious urban planners get involved - which they probably won't because there's just not enough money out there. Dvpt that is happening is hideous shabby crap.

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 11:24 AM

"Hope you enjoy your brownstone enough that you don't have to venture out anywhere."

LOL!

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 11:31 AM

When I read about the subway closure, I felt awful for the residents of Red Hook who lack services, but secretly cheered. I love my visits to Red Hook and wouldn't mind living in its isolated wonder, roaming packs of stray dogs and all. Maybe now, I'll be able to afford it. But probably not.

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 11:32 AM

After responding to a woman's 911 call about a domestic dispute with her son, the police fired between 13 and 20 times at the son, who claimed he had a gun. The gunfire killed 18-year-old Khiel Coppin and it turned out he was only holding a hairbrush.

Coppin had been arguing with his mother in their Bedford-Stuyvesant apartment, and when police arrived, came out to the window ledge, "screaming and acting irrationally," according to the Daily News. A police source said, "Basically, it's suicide by cop." The police also say that Coppin's mother repeatedly said her son had a gun and that the five police officers said "Halt!" and Drop it!" to the teen.

Some witnesses agreed, saying they heard Coppin's mother say he had a gun, while some said Coppin had his hands up when he was shot. Andre Sanchez said he saw Coppin drop the hairbrush and that one officer yelled for the others to stop shooting; later, Sanchez claimed he saw one officer ask another, "Why did you shoot him?" Another witness, Precious Blood, told the Times that one officer kept shooting, in spite of shouts to stop.

Coppin was allegedly handcuffed after being shot and was pronounced dead at Woodhull Hospital. The Daily News adds that Coppin's mother had looked into psychiatric help for her son. All five police officers passed Breathalyzer tests.

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 11:40 AM

Sounds like the cops did what they had to do. The tragedy is the untreated mental illness and the trauma for these officers who were essentially forced to execute this guys suicide plot.

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 11:53 AM

no subway = no-one commuting to manhattan = no big salary to pay inflated mortgage

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 11:59 AM

Red Hook reminds me alot of Williamsburg before businesses and services were developed. The transportation sucks also.People mention the projects...well the projects are about the same distance away as the projects in the city from the bustling meatpacking district and you see how that is now.There are projects in Harlem but you see who has moved into the neighborhood there. Projects in Ft Greene and you see who lives there.Projects in Bedstuy and well...you get my point. I dont think the projects is the reason Redhook is not developing so much as the transportation factor.I still think eventually that the so called gentrifiers will move in that area and then the services will come.

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 12:07 PM

Why should Red Hook "gentrify?" I'm sure the people who are happy living there are fine with the place the way it is. Those who aren't happy will likely soon move out. It's not even worth arguing about.

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 12:11 PM

The main problem with red hook is the red hook houses -the projects right smack in the midle of the neighborhood. If it were not for that, the place could have easily turned into a sort of LA-style elite enclave. No entry except by SUV, no hoi polloi arriving by mass transit, big modern houses with water views like a hipper Riverdale.
But the projects kind of put a wrench in the elite enclave thing. Those of you who like Red Hook as it is have the projects to thank.
I think the lack of subways could have been a net plus, but the poor folks are already in there, so it would be impossible to tribeca-ize or dumbo-ize the area. Those two neighborhoods had few pre-existing residents so everyone that moved in was like evrybody else, white (or whitish) young (or youngish) rich (or extremely rich). Old buildings and new people seems to be the formula in NYC.

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 12:12 PM

"I still think eventually that the so called gentrifiers will move in that area and then the services will come."

Wrong!!!!!!!! When the assheads see their property values fall, they will cut bait and run!!!! Why would someone hang on is a shitty neighborhood? Dumb fuck drank too much Kool-Aid and the poision is taking hold. Plus when not if the credit market dries up, there will be NO MONEY to buy overpriced shit.

Read this retards
Mortgage Loan Losses Pose Risk of Systemic Shock
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601009&sid=ahE9S0dlVt8g&refer=bond

It says Systemic no local. LMMFAO! Yeah were Ok.

The What

Someday this war will end......

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 12:19 PM

I love Kool Aid

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 12:29 PM

It's true there is really very little housing stock in Red Hook - and what there is is really ugly. Certainly, if all the buildings were great old brick factories - like soho or tribeca - it would be gentrified up the wazoo, projects or not. BUT, it ain't going to happen that way. And Ikea is NOT going to be a good thing in terms of gentrification - I think it will just lure other big stores like Target and walmart.

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 12:31 PM

Red Hook's ability to transform starts and ends with subway access.

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 12:31 PM

where is red hook?

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 12:35 PM

You got to read this! If this is true, you will not be able to get a mortgage. This shit gets funnier everyday! The crash is happing in slow motion. God help us all.

Deutsche Bank Foreclosures Tossed Out of Ohio Federal Court - "They Own Nothing!"

http://iamfacingforeclosure.com/article/20071113_Boyko/01.html

The What

Someday this war is gonna end....

I off to find a job NOT! LMMFAO!

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 12:40 PM

Where are all these rich brownstoners who take the subway? Most days on the trains I don't see anyone that can afford a new winter coat let alone a brownstone.
Is this a NYC myth? The subway-taking gentrifiers?
Have you been on the subway on the weekends?
Tourists and poor folks is about what you see. Where are all the rich gentrifiers who require mass transit? Or is it for their nannies and housekeepers?

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 12:42 PM

Firstly, Alma is NOT in Red Hook. Red Hook does not begin until Hamilton Avenue. All the streets on Columbia leading up to that are considered Carroll Gardens.

Second: Red Hook real estate is a terrible investment simply because of the flooding issue, which will only get worse over time.

I happen to love Red Hook, but given all it's problems it's never going to be "the next big thing."

And stop calling Carroll Gardens Red Hook...

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 12:48 PM

when I moved to NYC some years ago I was told by a savvy friend that the term "middle class" was meaningless in the city. It meant everything and nothing. There are only two classes of people in the city, she said, those who ride in the subways and those who do not.

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 12:50 PM

You don't see anyone on the subway who can afford a new coat? OPEN YOUR DAMN EYES!

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 12:53 PM

your "brownstone owners don't ride subways" is absurd.

totally absurd.

some of you are so out of touch with reality, it's scary.

get out and take a look at something other than your tv once in a while.

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 12:55 PM

I just saw Drew Barrymore on the train on Sunday.

Think she can't afford a new coat?

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 12:55 PM

I wear a Prada coat (last season, but still...) and ride the subway every single day.

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 1:00 PM

Yo, 12:48, it began as Red Hook and shall end as Red Hook. No namby pamby realtor can change that!!

The Where

Someday this whore's gonna bend...

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 1:03 PM

Ditto, 1:00pm. I have a NEW Marc Jacobs (from the *expensive* line) coat and take the 2/3 every single day in both directions--have for the last 10 years. Ooh, and my boss has a really ugly Versace coat with fur lapels and she commutes on the A train daily.

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 1:12 PM

I'm a subway motorman and I wear a mink lined vest every damn DAY!

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 1:14 PM

I'm wearing 150K worth of jewelry today and rode the 2/3 into work.

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 1:17 PM

I commute nude.

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 1:23 PM

No train. Sorry but that's the deal.Plus, Fairway is cool (if you have a car) but the projects make the area a problem. Always have. Oh, and I was born and rasied here, own a house and take the train. The area is not a place you want to walk around at night.

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 1:26 PM

I walk in a speedo to Red Hook three days a week to look at real estate. Then swim back to my Manhattan triplex. Then I take the subway to my Puerto Rican mistress' apartment in Boogie Down.

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 1:27 PM

I once had my car towed to Red Hook and I have never been so freaking afraid in my life. That said, if anyone is selling, I've got a suitcase of cash for you!

The When

Someday this bore's gonna lend...

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 1:30 PM

1:17, I'll be waiting for your ass on the platform with my shiv.

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 1:31 PM

The sky is falling in slow motion.

The Who

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 1:31 PM

They should build Atlantic Yards in Red Hook.

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 1:33 PM

the problem with red hook? two words. no subways.

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 1:34 PM

there is no problem with red hook.

not everywhere needs to look like chelsea.

leave it be. there are plenty of other neighborhoods to destroy.

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 1:39 PM

They should move Red Hook to AY

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 1:44 PM

real estate never "peaked" there! "peaking" requires actual transactions! as the article said, sellers in red hook would list stuff for 50% over what they might actually take, and "fish" for ages. Turnover was really tiny I think as a percentage of what it could have been if sellers & brokers were realistic.

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 1:49 PM

how about they put an Ikea in Red Hook? oh wait, they already are!

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 1:51 PM

real estate has already "peaked" in 99.9 percent of the country.

how is this news?

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 1:54 PM

1:54, do you know the name of the hamlet where it hasn't peaked? I'd like to buy.

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 2:06 PM

I always see Steve Buscemi on the subway, wearing a jean jacket. He is hot, hot, hot.

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 2:09 PM

A big problem in Red Hook is that the city won't grant variances to build residential. Most of the back of Red Hook is still zoned M-1 and the city slapped an IBZ on top of that. There are real wars over what Red Hook is to be from a city planning perspective. Therefore, the hood is at a standstill. No people, no services, no retail. That is the problem. BTW, the Bus goes right through Red Hook to many subways. I take it every day with 2 kids and a stroller. Not much hassle considering that I get the best light and views by living there.

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 2:11 PM

"The crash is happing in slow motion."

Make up your mind...is happening FAST or SLOW? You've been posting about a year now, so please get it straight so we can all be ready for the big crash EXACTLY when it happens.

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 2:14 PM

What happens is that The What spontaneously combusts.

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 2:15 PM

Almost no public transportation and very little housing stock. Who exactly thought Red Hook was going to gentrify in the first place? It never seemed plausible to me.

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 2:23 PM

"1:54, do you know the name of the hamlet where it hasn't peaked? I'd like to buy."

yes, a little place called nyc.

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 2:23 PM

Jesus, 12.48, get over yourself - the criteria was within walking distance, I didn't say Alma was in Carroll Gardens. Don't worry, your property value remains untainted! And yeah, Alma is only good for the view. And the margaritas.

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 2:43 PM

i think everyone here is pretty much agreeing with the first comment

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 3:39 PM

Red Hook should be used for a social re-engineering experiment.

Demolish all projects. Loosen up zoning restrictions and lets see what happens

i predict a peaceful oasis

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 3:43 PM

touche, 3:39.

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 3:45 PM

in these modern times, anyone who drives to work when public transport is a viable option is an idiot

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 3:58 PM

"i think everyone here is pretty much agreeing with the first comment"

So much for enlightened brownstone Brooklyn. It's pretty sad to see that so many people who consider themselves intelligent, thoughtful and progressive are so clearly ignorant, hateful racists.

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 4:10 PM

"enlightened brownstone Brooklyn"

no one who lives in brownstone brooklyn named themselves enlightened. it's fools like you.

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 4:14 PM

just because one lives in a pretty house, it does not make them any more or less "enlightened". such a vain assumption.

classic limo liberal nonsense

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 4:21 PM

Screw that argument...3:39 and 3:45. If that is the case why are white people who cant afford Manhattan anymore fleeing to Ft Greene,Clinton Hill ,Bed Stuy and Crown Heights,predominantly black neighborhoods?Or are they not fleeing to Bay Ridge, Bensonhurst and Williamsburg cause they cant stand living with their own kind such as yourselves, ignorant racist bastards who probably feel a sense of entitlement because they are living off inheritances or living with 20 roommates to be able to live above their means?

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 4:42 PM

I have 20 roommates...or as I like to call them...the staff....

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 4:50 PM

4:14/4:21 - comfortable with hatred.

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 5:02 PM

The gentrification of Red Hook was basically hanging on the Condo development of the big shipping building at 160 Imlay street. The developers got a variance to renovate and then the a group of industrial business owners in the neighborhood called the Red Hook-Gowanus Chamber of Commerce got together and filed a lawsuit to stop the construction and won. To the person who said that Red Hook does not have the industrial housing stock of TriBeCa you should take a look at 160 Imlay and the neighboring building because these are massive impressive looking buildings that would have sent loft lovers drooling to Red Hooks shores regardless of transportation issues. All the rentals above Fairway have had absolutely no trouble finding tenants and these are expensive apartments. 160 Imlay was the defining moment in the deadening of the hook. The projects, the lack of transportation, the isolation... none of that would have mattered of 160 Imlay street had gone Condo.

The worst possible thing that could happen to Red Hook at this point would be that it became a Big Box store haven. That would be a tragedy of immeasurable proportions.

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 5:11 PM

the gentrification of an entire neighborhood rests on the shoulders of one single building?

sounds terrifying.

glad the "progress" has stopped then.

not a healthy way to create a community.

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 5:26 PM

The gentrification of an entire neighborhood rested on a decision by the court of whether a building could do condo development.

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 5:31 PM

absurd.

i think it's obvious that transportation is much more a deciding factor in all this than a single building going condo.

don't be ridiculous.

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 5:43 PM

5:11 is 100% correct
that was make or break

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 6:20 PM

How do you think the tenants who live at the Fairway apartments get to work everyday? The water taxi. And if the Imlay Condos had opened there would have been another water taxi stop right there. If the money was there, the transportation would have been there. I also heard that MTA may be adding a bus line that goes through the battery tunnel into Manhattan. They may do that when they close the Smith and 9th subways stop. Transportation would not have been an issue.

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 7:12 PM

GUARANTEE!!!!!!! Not one of these pickled-minded minions would ever go into the communities that they love to lambast on-line and espouse racist/ Ignorant, and so-called class statements publicly and personally (exotic mortgage products & racism; social as well as Institutionalized is the only reason the bulk of you can compete). Noting the usual lack of grace, self-respect, integrity, perseverance, humanity, and quality character of formidable substance, associated with your kind.

Note: The communities that are continually cited as "bad, dilapidated, etc" has produced some wonderful people to add to the world/ overall society. With the later not being relegated to a particular group and includes people from communities such as projects, ghettos, Heroin/crack-addicted parents, single-parent/ no parent households etc. Values fostered in Communities where people love, respect, nurture, persevere, believe in an Higher-Power and are supportive of one-another play a significantly large role; that is why Native Americans, persons of African-descent, and others have not yet sought to retaliate against those as well as their representatives who have oppressed and fostered conditions that undermine and debilitate (poor performing schools, housing laws and services that favor the abhorrent landlord, corporate welfare/ mortgage fraud including redlining/etc, inadequate medical facilities and care, lack of police protection and surveillance, corrupt government officials such as police, governor, judges, etc).

"How could a major drug cartel operate for 50 years in Harlem and not be disbanded until Bill Clinton sets up shop there?"

THINK - 0PEN EYES AND MINDS
- Stop the Infighting
- We may have to figure out how to sow that sole sesame seed into a meal to feed a nation. (I know some have an inherent comfort zone; however think global and reflect how that impacts and who is the ultimate small fish/ Real "Minority". - I'm also reminded of the story re: one of the earliest group of american settlers from Europe and the missing silver cup)
- Wall St/ Banks cite $100 Billion loss associated with mortgage debacle, many have "layed off" thousands - domino effect can realistically be expected. (Unless the powers that be figure to start another war or again prop up the economy on increased property values....)

Good Comment 12:50p, It rings true and correlates with a phrase pertaining to those who HAVE TO Work EVERDAY, yet think their in the class of the "Who's Who" (particularly in NYC). Again: Exotic Mortgages, Racism and Blissful IGNORANCE. Though many of the underwriters/ brokers did practice racism when doling out many of the products (mortgages), it appears many are suffering across the board (wide spectrum of homeowners, real estate/mortgage/bank personnel, retailers, etc.)

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 8:38 PM

no subway. it is really that simple. all the water taxis in the world (at $10/pop) won't fix that lack.

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 8:53 PM

I think that red hook is doing fine it has turned around so much what do you want? Black people do not matter look at clinton hill

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 9:21 PM

unless the trolley went to manhattan, it would be useless.

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 9:38 PM

present for the what...

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/14/business/14leonhardt.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 9:55 PM

9:38 is right. The trolly would be fun and cute and simply ooze nostalgia, but without a direct and easy connection to a Manhattan-bound subway, not very useful.

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 9:59 PM

a rather pollyanna view on things, don't you think, 9:55?

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 10:01 PM

i think it's a realistic view, actually.

not apocalyptic, not prices will never go down...just an easy explanation of the facts as they are.

the article didn't say everything is great you realize...

Posted by: guest at November 13, 2007 11:06 PM

A cricket bat? Now that's what I call Old World Charm!

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 12:11 AM

Hey 9:55 PM. I don't fuck with Kool-Aid. I know you want everything to be sweet but, The crash is underway homeboy. That story is a plant. The headline says it all!!

The What

Someday this war is gonna end....

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 1:38 AM

trolleys/streetcars from the waterfront to downtown brooklyn, where one can hop on one of the many manhattan bound subways, is the only hope for RH...it can run through columbia heights as well

not more ghetto buses. no one likes to take the bus

and yes if the Imlay bldg conversion had happened, we wouldn't be having this conversation today...that would have been a HUGE catalyst for change..unbelievable nimby-ism killed it...now they're stuck with the same ol' shit..congrats

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 9:01 AM

who is 8.38 talking to? Or is he the internet version one of those mad ranters that shouts out everyone on the subway?

Posted by: guest at November 14, 2007 9:03 AM