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November 26, 2007
Closing Bell: What’s Up With the Abandoned 4th Ave. Lot?
While every available square foot on 4th Avenue between Park Slope and Gowanus seems to be host to a new condo in some stage of planning or construction, the large city-owned lot between Union and Sackett has been sitting undeveloped. We’re not sure which arm of the city owns this, or what the plans are for the property. Anyone know? What do you think would work here? GMAP P*Shark
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Comments
i'm sure all the condo owners at 675 sackett would be upset if a really tall building went up there. but that may also be the reason why many ppl have sold their units their recently. and at such high prices also!!!
this was one of the best ROIs in the slope. purchased for 350-500k and sold for 750-1.1mm in some cases...dang!!!
Posted by: ltjbukem73 at November 26, 2007 4:17 PM
from what i understand, this site will be a permanent access point to repair the water tunnel that connects upstate NY with NYC.
Posted by: guest at November 26, 2007 4:17 PM
Giant Starbucks/Bank of America combo.
Posted by: guest at November 26, 2007 4:20 PM
It's slated to be a farm. The farm will raise rats, empty doritos packages and cigarette butts.
Posted by: guest at November 26, 2007 4:22 PM
Ooh, expensive housing! Maybe a crappy park!
Posted by: Zach at November 26, 2007 4:24 PM
Walk by on my way to the subway all the time. Several years back I watched as they dug a giant pit. Then put in a huge foundation. Next thing you know, they filled that in with dirt and there it sits. I've heard people say it and all the buildings this side of sackett (4th/5th) are sinking.
Posted by: guest at November 26, 2007 4:24 PM
I would like to see a cultural art Center. Where you can take classes from dance, music, art or rent out office space for not-for-profit companies that need office space. It can have a black box theatre to lease out as well as house a multicultural theatre company. It would be nice to have more options besides Bam thats close by.
Posted by: guest at November 26, 2007 4:26 PM
An actual small park with benches, some greenery, a sprinkler, with a playground maybe for all the new neighbors would be nice. No differnet than the one on 17th St. and 6th. A place for mommies to hang with thier kids. Never ever thought I would say that in my life, but with all the dense development, some green space isn't a bad thing to plan for as long as it is still city owned land. Bloomberg will probably sell it. The man recognizes a buck when he sees it, just like the FDNY houses he sold.
Posted by: guest at November 26, 2007 4:30 PM
Gay bar.
Posted by: guest at November 26, 2007 4:31 PM
What's an "ROI"? Also, I must admit that I kind of like 675 Sacket as far as the new develoment along 4th goes, I think it's one of the better examples. Anyone else agree?
Posted by: Brooklynnative at November 26, 2007 4:33 PM
Someday the lot on the corner of Sacket and 4th will join the Park Slope Green Belt of Gardens as another wonderful community garden -- thanks to public support, we have half a dozen permanent gardens so far!!
Because of the required access to the water tubes below, the space must remain an open space for perpetuity.
If you'd like to be involved in the transformation, join the folks now working at the garden called GreenSpace at President Street. They will head up the effort.
The new garden will be an oasis of native plantings and open grassy areas. No veggie boxes planned so far, but, if that will eventually be up to those who get involved.
Posted by: guest at November 26, 2007 4:37 PM
A Park is a great idea. Community Garden? Go fuck yoursel!!! Those turn into only like minded individuals enjoying thier own "Public/Private" space. Fuck you. "Open on Saturday's to the public when Gardeners are present". Make it a park, make it city owned, open it up to the general public. Bunch of hypocrites. You are all full of shit. Rally the community:
"The new garden will be an oasis of native plantings and open grassy areas. No veggie boxes planned so far, but, if that will eventually be up to those who get involved."
and then tell them sorry no plots for planting are available at this time.
"They will head up the effort". Sounds like you got your hooks in already. I actually like the small park idea, but now that you are involved, I vote for expensive Condos. At least those people pay with their own money for their private space.
Posted by: guest at November 26, 2007 4:51 PM
i second a gay bar.
Posted by: guest at November 26, 2007 5:03 PM
4:17 and 4:37 are correct (although I suppose we need to give partial credit to 4:22). I took a stab at getting this and similar properties turned into public open spaces (that would remain under DEP jurisdiction) but the proposal never got any traction. Then again, that was under the Giuliani administration. Maybe it's time to revisit the idea, 4:30's cheap crack about the current mayor notwithstanding.
Posted by: g man at November 26, 2007 5:05 PM
Community gardens are horrible. They aren't for the community; they're for a few people who have taken public property for their own use.
If it can't be built upon, make it a city park open to all, not a private place for a few people to plant tomatos.
Posted by: guest at November 26, 2007 5:11 PM
There's already a playground with a sprinkler for the endless mommies/nannies one block up sackett (where it's called berkeley).
Oh, and, mmm...vegies grown across from the Hess station and over the city water main sound delicious.
Posted by: guest at November 26, 2007 5:15 PM
I don't understand why the entire site can't be built upon. The site is huge. All they need is access to the tunnel project.
Can't we have some much-needed apartments AND a park?
Posted by: guest at November 26, 2007 5:16 PM
Why can't gays go to the same bars as hetero's?
Posted by: guest at November 26, 2007 5:16 PM
Cuz the straight guys don't like it when you grab their junk. Unless they have had a few, then all bets are off.
Posted by: guest at November 26, 2007 5:22 PM
Velodrome
Posted by: guest at November 26, 2007 5:26 PM
They're gonna let people have a community garden over the access tunnel where our drinking water comes from? Shouldn't they have a like a tank and barb wire guarding that spot?
Posted by: guest at November 26, 2007 5:28 PM
Bowling alley
Posted by: guest at November 26, 2007 5:30 PM
Fertilizer and pesticides, or worse, organic compounds (manure), seeping slowing down into our water supply...Dig a trench, fill it with water overflow, and put some gators in there.
Posted by: guest at November 26, 2007 5:31 PM
Velodrome wins.
Posted by: guest at November 26, 2007 5:41 PM
Snake farm.
Posted by: guest at November 26, 2007 5:50 PM
i'm happy to go to a straight bar as a gay man.
as long as you go home with me after...
Posted by: guest at November 26, 2007 5:55 PM
I live on Sackett between 4/5. First of all - none of our buildings are sinking. That's the good news. The bad news is that I spoke to a DEP employee as he was locking up the gate one day and he said that the lot can never be used for anything -- for obvious reason there cannot be ANY access to our drinking water.
That means no park, no community space, no private development, nothing. I just hope they do something to make it more attractive on the outside.
Posted by: guest at November 26, 2007 6:20 PM
I'm sorry, Mr. G-Man, educate me. Outside of the sentence starting with "because", what was 4:37 correct about? You make it sound like you have the inside track here.
Posted by: guest at November 26, 2007 6:25 PM
There is a park a block away, wow. Let's all corrall the endless mommies and nannies into one space and take some pictures too like at the zoo. Make an invent out of it. Dickhead.
Posted by: guest at November 26, 2007 6:28 PM
6:20, That DEP worker is definitely wrong. There are water tunnel entrance sites like this all over the city, and they have buildings, parks, streets, etc. built over them, including some planned for sites like this.
Posted by: guest at November 26, 2007 6:34 PM
Straight Garden.
Posted by: guest at November 26, 2007 8:16 PM
How about a place to put all the porn link posters?
Posted by: guest at November 26, 2007 8:20 PM
Like a stockade? Cool.
Posted by: guest at November 26, 2007 8:41 PM
Screw the velodrome. Build a thunderdrome!
Posted by: slick at November 26, 2007 8:57 PM
videodrome
Posted by: guest at November 26, 2007 9:11 PM
6:25, the sentence starting with "Because" was the only part of 4:37's post that I was confirming. DEP's response to me was dismissive, along the lines of 6:20's conversation although my discussion was a bit more formal. I am encouraged by 6:34's report.
Who wants to take the lead and call Craig Hammerman at Community Board 6? Election season is often a good time to get candidates to accomplish stuff that doesn't go anywhere the other three-quarters of the time? If Craig can get this done as district manager, he can boast about it as City Council candidate.
Posted by: g man at November 26, 2007 9:25 PM
paint ball place!!
Posted by: armchairwarrior at November 26, 2007 10:29 PM
Abandoned?
By who or whom?
Obviously nothing can be built there except some sort of access structure.
You should have seen it when the access hole was open down to the tunnel hundreds of feet below ...
Posted by: guest at November 26, 2007 10:41 PM
I was actually shown an apartment on 675 a week ago and the agent said that the space is a water testing facility that is going to be turned into a Japanese garden (or something) that actually won't be accessible to the public. (A grain of salt is recommended with this info. The agent is trying to sell an apartment).
Posted by: guest at November 26, 2007 10:48 PM
keep the bad porn coming 10:48! And I mean COMING!
Posted by: guest at November 26, 2007 10:56 PM
This has been covered a 100 times already. GET A CLUE ... it's the Brooklyn access point for the new water tunell.
It will become a public park in a year or two when they are done.
Posted by: guest at November 26, 2007 11:16 PM
About 10 or 12 years ago I was walking by that site; the gate was open a bit and I asked the guy at the gate if I could see what they were building. He let me walk over to the construction area. There was a small wall about three feet high, forming a giant circle, about 50' in diameter. I walked over to the edge and looked down, and saw to my amazement it was a huge hole in the ground, going down maybe a thousand feet, like an inverted skyscraper; with some little people way down at the bottom and a bucket moving stuff up and down. I'll never forget it.
Posted by: guest at November 27, 2007 12:16 AM
Another completely unispiring thread on Brownstoner!
Posted by: guest at November 27, 2007 7:49 AM
Thanks for the livening it up 7:49. NOT.
Posted by: guest at November 27, 2007 2:20 PM
There is actually a plan to turn this lot into a public park, but I've read that work won't begin until after the 3rd water tunnel is fully completed in a couple years.
Posted by: guest at November 27, 2007 2:30 PM
I am very familiar with this site and have already investigated this matter directly with Community Board 6 with Craig Hammerman and LeRoy Branch. The site will be turned into a public garden, developed by Meg Webster and Stephen O'Dell. It is managed under the Department of Environmental Protection and the Department of Cultural Affairs. The site is indeed the access for the water tunnel, which while complete in the Park Slope section, but can not be built over until the entire Brooklyn section is complete and fully tested, which will be around 2011. The park is entitled "Site for Greenspace" and includes a large pond, a major walkway, a meadow, several pavilions, and a stage for performances, along with several access hatches incorporated into the design for the water tunnel. I have had conversations with the workers at the site several years ago and they commented that the site couldnt be developed, because that is what they prefer. However, it is not under their jurisdiction and Community Board 6 has been very helpful in speaking with the site manager to get it cleaned when its been neglected. I actually attended the Community Board 6 meeting on this project and have a copy of the site plan for the park. We were told at that time that trees would be put on the sidewalk and the fence would be covered with something nice, but unfortunately this has not occured yet. I would encourage the community to stay involved to ensure that the park happens as planned and so that this space stays available to all as a nice green open area.
Posted by: JS23 at April 6, 2008 4:42 PM
I am very familiar with this site and have already investigated this matter directly with Community Board 6 with Craig Hammerman and LeRoy Branch. The site will be turned into a public garden, developed by Meg Webster and Stephen O'Dell. It is managed under the Department of Environmental Protection and the Department of Cultural Affairs. The site is indeed the access for the water tunnel, which while complete in the Park Slope section, but can not be built over until the entire Brooklyn section is complete and fully tested, which will be around 2011. The park is entitled "Site for Greenspace" and includes a large pond, a major walkway, a meadow, several pavilions, and a stage for performances, along with several access hatches incorporated into the design for the water tunnel. I have had conversations with the workers at the site several years ago and they commented that the site couldnt be developed, because that is what they prefer. However, it is not under their jurisdiction and Community Board 6 has been very helpful in speaking with the site manager to get it cleaned when its been neglected. I actually attended the Community Board 6 meeting on this project and have a copy of the site plan for the park. We were told at that time that trees would be put on the sidewalk and the fence would be covered with something nice, but unfortunately this has not occured yet. I would encourage the community to stay involved to ensure that the park happens as planned and so that this space stays available to all as a nice green open area.
Posted by: JS23 at April 6, 2008 4:44 PM
I am very familiar with this site and have already investigated this matter directly with Community Board 6 with Craig Hammerman and LeRoy Branch. The site will be turned into a public garden, developed by Meg Webster and Stephen O'Dell. It is managed under the Department of Environmental Protection and the Department of Cultural Affairs. The site is indeed the access for the water tunnel, which while complete in the Park Slope section, but can not be built over until the entire Brooklyn section is complete and fully tested, which will be around 2011. The park is entitled "Site for Greenspace" and includes a large pond, a major walkway, a meadow, several pavilions, and a stage for performances, along with several access hatches incorporated into the design for the water tunnel. I have had conversations with the workers at the site several years ago and they commented that the site couldnt be developed, because that is what they prefer. However, it is not under their jurisdiction and Community Board 6 has been very helpful in speaking with the site manager to get it cleaned when its been neglected. I actually attended the Community Board 6 meeting on this project and have a copy of the site plan for the park. We were told at that time that trees would be put on the sidewalk and the fence would be covered with something nice, but unfortunately this has not occured yet. I would encourage the community to stay involved to ensure that the park happens as planned and so that this space stays available to all as a nice green open area.
Posted by: JS23 at April 6, 2008 6:14 PM
Here is the link to and the posting from CB6:
www.brooklyncb6.org/_attachments/PKSM20061115.doc
COMMUNITY BOARD SIX
PARKS/RECREATION COMMITTEE
NOVEMBER 15, 2006
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*** MINUTES ***
BACKGROUND: City Tunnel #3 – Shaft 22B. The tunnel is not yet activated. No water in it. City Tunnel #1 was built in 1917. Stage 2 in Brooklyn, Queens and Manhattan is being built now. Once Tunnel #2 and 3 are completed, DEP can turn off Tunnel #1 to improve water quality and pressure. The time frame for activation is 2011. This will happen after all tests and cleaning out are complete.
After shafts are done, testing can begin. Shafts bring water from tunnels to surface. The tunnel is between 150 to 300 feet. The central chamber is at Roosevelt Island. Shafts connect to water mains for water distributions.
The Chair called the meeting to order at 6:50 PM. Barbara Longobardi made a motion to accept the minutes of the meeting held on October 18, 2006 and the motion was seconded by Lisa Maluf.
UPDATE BY A REPRESENTATIVE OF THE DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION ON THE DEVELOPMENT OF A COMMUNITY GARDEN AS A PERCENT FOR ART PROGRAM PROJECT BEING CONSTRUCTED AT THE SHAFT 22B SITE AT THE SOUTHEAST CORNER OF SACKETT STREET AND 4TH AVENUE.
Kevin Clarke of the Department of Environmental Protection being the Project Manager for City Tunnel #3 made the presentation. He stated that City Tunnels #1 and 2 are old (90 and 70 years respectively). Having a third tunnel allows the city to take Tunnels #1 and 2 offline for maintenance.
Shaft 22B is in Park Slope. The shaft site only goes to the surface – can’t build on it because DEP needs access. However, they will allow a Percent for Arts park.
Lisa Kim of the Department of Cultural Affairs said that 1 % of budget was for city capital projects including:
- Hamilton Avenue Draw Bridge
- Columbia Street Waterfront bike path and sidewalk
- Flatbush Avenue and Tillary Street sculpture
John Leonforte of DEP said that green space/community garden was desired by the community d and Meg Webster was chosen by a panel which included CB6.
Meg Webster said that the space would be a place to sit or to stroll and to learn about nature, native plants, eco-systems. A kiosk would offer teaching possibilities. A stage with seating would allow for theater performances. Enter off 4th Avenue and wander across pond through to Sackett Street.
Area would include: roof pavilion, theater, shed, propagation area, solar array to collect energy to run place and native vines on fences.
Marilyn Oliva questioned whether there would be community gardening. The answer was negative but the community is invited to participate. She also asked if the funds for the group are in place. Meg said that they were and she will get the information for the committee. She said it was done through CB6.
Glenn Kelly asked where the shaft access was. Meg said that there were manholes and hatches for access. Also needs truck access to get to shaft.
John Leonforte of DEP said that the upkeep of the garden will be done by the greenspace group. Lisa Maluf asked if there would be Parks oversight. John Leonforte said no and there is no connection to DEP other than the fact that DEP owns the property. In 100 years the roof of the shaft will need to be taken off and the garden will go.
Bob Zuckerman asked what kind of fence would be erected. Meg said that it would be a black chain link fence with vines over it and two nice trellis gates. John Leonforte said that the gates can be closed at night.
Glenn Kelly asked about the budget. Meg said that the budget was $360,000. He also asked if Parks was ever brought in. John said that they did not want to bring in Parks.
Glenn also asked about the irrigation system and Meg stated that it was not yet designed. He also questioned if there would be access to water and she said there would be. Kevin Clarke said that it is conceptual only. Water and electric drawings are not done yet
Bob Zuckerman asked for an explanation as to why you can’t build on this site. Kevin Clarke and James Carlese said that they must have access to the tunnel and the equipment forever. In addition, in the future they will need to do heavy maintenance.
Glenn asked about other shaft sites. James Carlese said that it depends on the site. John Leonforte said that larger sites will have some part fenced off for easement and the rest turned to park land. All sites are being developed in some way.
Glenn asked how solar energy will be supported. Meg said that it depends on prices of the panels fitting triangular array. He also wanted to know about the time table. DEP said 2011. They can’t build it until the tunnel is activated. Bob Zuckerman asked about the certitude that this park will be built. John Leonforte said that there will come an end and this (park) will be there.
Marilyn Oliva opened the discussion to the community present.
Priaja Laberi of 675 Sackett Street asked who will clean the site at this point. Kevin Clarke said that they just awarded the contract to build it and all maintenance will be through the contractor. Contact DEP directly if there are any complaints about clean up and maintenance.
Gretchen Maneval of the Fifth Avenue Committee explained that there was a possibility of building affordable housing on this site. They have not heard that this project is a done deal and have spoken to DEP.
Glenn Kelly said it seemed this site is out of bounds.
Gretchen Maneval said that the Fifth Avenue Committee has not done a feasibility study.
A community member asked how high the fence would be and would it be locked at night. Meg Webster said 10 feet and the community will decide through the “Friends of” committee about the locking.
Glenn Kelly felt that visibility and safety plus police locking would be a good idea.
Motion was made by Barbara Longobardi to approve the concept of the garden as presented with details to be worked out as we get closer to implementation. The motion was seconded by Ralph Goldberg.
MOTION PASSED: UNANIMOUSLY
Motion was made by Bob Zuckerman to adjoin and seconded by Nica Lalli.
Posted by: JS23 at April 6, 2008 6:25 PM
There is an empty lot on the SE corner of 12th St. and 4th Ave. (across from a mega condo development going up on 4th Ave.) I have heard conflicting reports of why that property has stayed vacant for at least the last few years--it was bought by some nuns for a half-way house or something, but used to be site for a gas station so the land may be contaminated??? ANyone else have any idea what the deal is and why it sits there like an eyesore?
Posted by: guest at April 7, 2008 11:03 AM
It has been slated by the city for affordable housing. The area needs diversification, and area low income people need a place to live. I understand that Federal funds will be used for a high rise building which will consist of low cost rentals.
Posted by: guest at April 8, 2008 12:40 AM
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