AY: A Hearing on Terrorism Threat Followed by a March

I saw this march as it moved past the Crunch Fitness on Flatbush Ave. The most obvious things about it were the usual two: (1) it was a small turnout and (2) most of the participants were white. Really, the surrounding communities must have 100,000 people and only about 100 or so show up for this rally? Giving money to this cause at this stage is like donating to the Kerry/Edwards presidential run.

Leading the group was none other than our impeccable councilwoman, Letitia James. With all of the other problems in our area (low reading scores, drug dealing, trash, etc.), this woman has wasted so much time on fighting the losing Atlantic Yards battle. Thank God for term limits!

Posted by: guest at October 15, 2007 9:14 AM

The terrorism in this neighborhood will be worthless when the Atlantic Yards are built.

Posted by: guest at October 15, 2007 9:24 AM

ah, as usual the early bird vomits the worm.

where's the massive march FOR Atlantic Yards? Know where? No where.

to paraphrase an ominpotent commenter-bot:

C-O-O-K-E-D D-E-A-L

Posted by: guest at October 15, 2007 9:30 AM

pretty shameful to take a page out of the guliani playbook to further your cause. There are plenty of reasons why atlantic yards stinks, but playing the terrorism card is silly.

Posted by: guest at October 15, 2007 9:31 AM

D-U-M-B-D-E-A-L !!!

in fact, fear of terrorism controls everything in our country, it has elected the worst president in our history and emboldened a mob-tied, hypocrite, opportunist mayor to run for president.

how could you support our country and all that it currently stands for and not find terrorism concerns surrounding AY valid?

Posted by: guest at October 15, 2007 10:02 AM

The anti-AY know NO SHAME. They will play any card (race, terrorism, income inequality to name some) in order to advance their PERSONAL agenda.

There is NOTHING that would make AY any more a terror target then the Atlantic Terminal train station, WSB, Brooklyn Bridge, Borough Hall, 25 different Synagugues in Crown Heights, Boro Park or Williamsburg or probably 1,000 other locations in and around NYC - Please DDDB cite 1 SINGLE example where you even made a request for a review of terrorism prep on those places - betch cant!

DDDB's name is a minomer - DDDB is clearly willing to destroy brooklyn if it doesnt get the development its (3 real memebers) approve of... I have to wonder if the terrorism we shouldnt be worried about is that perpetrated by a homegrown terrorist with an anti-arena agenda and the initials= D.G.

Posted by: guest at October 15, 2007 10:10 AM

take a look at the president, practically every republican in congress and our former mayor, so you're also saying they have no shame.

Posted by: guest at October 15, 2007 10:16 AM

The anti-AY crowd has relied heavily on trying to make others fearful. Fear of traffic, terrorism, sewage, lack of parking, parking lots, rising real estate values, falling real estate values, etc. I used to be amused by their naivete, but now it's just annoying. I can't wait until their recent appeal is rejected - then, finally, they will slither away. Ms. James will be out in '09 and this silly fight will be a distant memory.

Posted by: guest at October 15, 2007 10:23 AM

I havent researched "every republican in congress" but in regards to the president, and our former mayor using the threat of terrorism to promote their personal agenda - yes it is SHAMELESS - and that is relevant to this debate HOW?

Posted by: guest at October 15, 2007 10:30 AM

The terrorists LIVE in Brooklyn--they're not going to blow it up.

Posted by: guest at October 15, 2007 11:51 AM

I just read on AYR that yesterday's walkathon raised 50K. I also recall past blog threads that Daniel Goldstein's wife is paid 35K/yr. to work for DDDB. How is this not a conflict of interest? Does DDDB get any govt. funding or are their expenses paid solely by fundraisers such as this?

No malice here, just curious about what people think.

Posted by: guest at October 15, 2007 11:52 AM

If you knew anything about fundraising, and the turn out for events in general, you would understand this is actually above average.
Fact: DDDB is able to raise more money than most non profits. They are contenders in a totally organic grassroots organization. There is nothing pathetic about it all. How many people actually VOTE in this country? The war continues, poverty persists, and people still don't vote...so considering the decades of general disillusionment and low turn out for voting or political action.....this is what those who are involved in non profit fundraising know to be true.

Do some research before you spew your once again predictable posts about white people and low turn out. You are just as predictable and miserably failed in making your points, as you claim the opponents are.
Get a new riff.

Posted by: guest at October 15, 2007 12:10 PM

Non profits raise money to pay employees - as do grants.
Why the stretch to always find some sort of conflict.
And incidentally, this is about 10K higher than the supposed progressive Acorn pays their employees.

Posted by: guest at October 15, 2007 12:12 PM

With all of the other problems in our area (low reading scores, drug dealing, trash, etc.)

IS RATNER GOING TO FIX THIS?
HAVE YOU GONE BY THE RAIL YARDS?

DO YOU THINK THAT THE WASTE LAND THAT RATNER IS CREATING, THE YOUTH HE OPENLY FEARS - DO YOU THINK HE IS NOT PART OF THIS PROBLEM?

Posted by: guest at October 15, 2007 12:13 PM

It really is such a great borough, that exemplified the best kind of urban growth.

RATNER KILLED THE URBAN GROWTH, do you not get that..he kicked out indigenous and new comers...and now there is no one there, and we await Jason Kidd and some new rich folks.

Hooray arena.

unreal. you folks are soul less.

Posted by: guest at October 15, 2007 12:16 PM

I seriously doubt that DDDB raised anywhere near 50K - since their claim that they had 200 people in their walk-a-thon is demonstrably false.

Thats the problem with posting pictures - one can count for themselves - it is clear from the pictures as well as personal observation no more than 75 people turned out.

Posted by: guest at October 15, 2007 12:17 PM

12:16 - thank you for continuing the 'sky-is-falling' diatribe that has made the Anti-AY movement so successful to this point.

Posted by: guest at October 15, 2007 12:19 PM

Here is what your pied piper thinks of the "poor" and "youth" that you all sheepishly think he will "save."
If these direct quotes from Ratner's mouth ( not his spokesperson) are not the epitome of a "NIMBY" then exactly what is?

From 2004!

The Times indicates that Ratner believes it was not an issue of class or ethnicity.

But of course, that's exactly what it is.

Ratner's quotes indicate a number of disturbing revelations about Bruce Ratner's mindset:

1) The Atlantic Center Mall was designed with the belief that kids from the "projects" (a label people who live in housing developments abhor) are "tough kids."

2) Ratner believes insuring conditions that are "positive for shopping" is worth the mall's back being turned on its neighbors.

3) Ratner casts kids from the neighborhoods around the mall as "kids that cut school."

4) He sees kids in the suburbs (primarily white) as better behaved with responsible parents. "Here, it's a little different" is code language for "blacks don't behave the same as the kids in the suburbs, maybe because they don't have the same parenting.

In fact, it's all coded language that says "we had to design the mall to protect shoppers from marauding black youth from the projects who don't have any parental guidance."

Ratner, of course, doesn't use this space to apologize for his and FCR's biased assesment of the mall's surrounding communities. He doesn't say "it was terrible of us to think that way, and I'm sorry. We'll do everything to never let that happen again."

Instead, Ratner believes he was right to think that way.

It's astonishing...these are quotes from a man trying to convince communities that he's working on their behalf, that he cares about them, that he'll make their lives better. As for the Times, this was supposed to be the latest in their series of Ratner puff pieces -- they are business partners, so don't look for objectivity on this issue from the Gray Lady.

Posted by: guest at October 15, 2007 12:21 PM

ly Brooklyn will be allowed to develop naturally for the first time since the depression.

NATURALLY????????

Now that is the funniest thing I've seen on this god foresaken Brownstoner site.

So its natural, to have people actually invest as individuals in a neighborhood that was depressed for years, pay 100's of employees, buy their co-ops across from neglected MTA trashed land, start small business, that employed people of colors to then be told, get out, here's some chump change for your trouble, now we will trash the neighborhood again, but make it look like we are making it better, and build a "world class" row of luxury apartments....and call it Natural.

NICE ONE...beautiful!

Posted by: guest at October 15, 2007 12:25 PM

12:21 - Excellent propaganda there Joseph Goebbells:
- take an article - pull the quotes, ignore virtually all context, draw self-serving conclusions based upon said quotes and then fail to include link to original article so as to prevent someone from reading quotes in their original context. We all salute your fair and balanced reporting

Posted by: guest at October 15, 2007 12:29 PM

How on earth could those things be out of context? And I'm not a reporter, so your post is ridiculous. That said Bam he said it, point blank in many articles I just don't need to do your homework for you. However it is funny you should say so, considering all the pointless, non sensical made up information that is continually posted on here about people involved in dddb...but I guess that double standard is for your benefit so its okay? That has been the mo of you viscious "proponents" of caring bruce.

Oh and you can google the article just like I did, I'm not preventing you from reading it you silly silly person. I don't control the internet that way sorry to disappoint!

Go ahead google it.

But since you are so lazy here is the article..and hey we all know that everything the NY Times prints is true!
But I'm sure you'll find some way to defend the guy, by pointing out that people who don't like the development are rich, nimby racists...

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0CE6DA153EF935A15756C0A9629C8B63

''It's a problem of malls in dense urban areas that kids hang out there, and it's not too positive for shopping,'' Mr. Ratner said. ''Look, here you're in an urban area, you're next to projects, you've got tough kids.''

Posted by: guest at October 15, 2007 12:43 PM

I seriously doubt that DDDB raised anywhere near 50K - since their claim that they had 200 people in their walk-a-thon is demonstrably false.

Really, you seriously doubt?

You can easily find the information by checking out the pages of walkers. And unlike Ratner, as a respectable non profit, they can't lie about numbers like this.

And even if there were 20 people, in a busy world, when people have lives and families, not everyone can come out to walk, but that does not stop people from donating.

Do you make it out to every cause you believe in? Like the anonymous bloggers walk a thon?

Posted by: guest at October 15, 2007 12:45 PM

Well I guess they could have bused people in from other neighborhoods, and given out candy and empty promises to lure people there, that seems to work for Ratner.
Darn!

Posted by: guest at October 15, 2007 12:49 PM

Flavor of the day. Could DDDB come up with a reason that they are against Atlantic Yards and stick with it?

12:21 I read the article. There's nothing in there that shocks me or that seems racist. Its a well known fact that the mall was designed in such a way to deter loitering. So what.

Posted by: guest at October 15, 2007 12:54 PM

"Do some research before you spew your once again predictable posts about white people and low turn out."

12:10, I did my research: I literally watched the entire march pass me by, which took about 90 seconds. The turnout was low and, yes, most of the people were white.

To further your rhetorical question about how many people vote, I'd say a LOT more than attended this rally. Even if DDDB's claim of 200 is accurate, that's far below the percentage of any election turnout. Pathetic no matter how you slice it.

But this will soon end. The rejection of the eminent domain appeal will be here before long.

Posted by: guest at October 15, 2007 1:13 PM

*Of course* AY opponents use whatever argument is available to push the case. That's all you can do when big, powerful, anti-democratic players are arrayed against you.

Ratner got together with Pataki, Bloomberg, and Silver to put this thing through, while in public his spokesmen made every conceivable (and often fallacious) argument about why this project (just as it is -- as huge as Trump's on the Westside) is great for Brooklyn. Please -- think about that -- this project is massive on the scale of Trump's project the Westide. Do you really think that's good for Prospect Heights? Do you really think there's no reasonable limit to density?

This project is going forward with scarcely a semblance of a democratic process -- more so than any other large development project in NYC. I think the consequence of that is going to be reflected in what kind of project we get -- too dense, with courtyards instead of a park, a superblock design that's deadening and cuts off Prospect Hgts from Fort Greene instead of linking them together, etc., etc.

22 acres in the heart of Brooklyn are going to be developed in a manner which every student of urban design and living knows is the wrong way to go. It's really very sad.

Posted by: guest at October 15, 2007 1:36 PM

Know your own your truth. What I continually can understand on this site is, why can we not "know our own truth."
The people who viciously and yes it is viciously attack people for trying to fight for their rights, this I can not understand. yes, you have your truth and other's theirs. Clearly no one will convince anyone of anything, not on this forum for sure.

Let's be realistic, we are all giving and feeding propaganda the one who says the oppostion has "failed" is clearly taking no time to understand what they are saying - for if they had "failed," why would that invoke such vitriolic posting, such anger?

Like wise when provoked surely the opponents can become just as vicious, but to act as though the people who are taking their time, and effort and undeniable hard work, to fight something they believe in, do they deserve such uncensored hatred from the posters on this blog? I mean really do they?
Rallies, fundraising events, donations from local vendors, fliers, press releases etc, do not happen on their own. FCR folks get salaries in teh 6 digits to do the same thing. Whether you BELIEVE in the same thing is irrelevant. We claim to value America for certain freedoms, and yet when exercised, in this borough, there is someone always on here ready to send out the most evil, self loathing vibes.

You can love the project, I personally don't because I know far far too much and have seen far far to much to believe that it will be anything but a glorified site for more luxury housing. However I have plenty of friends who believe it will be a real benefit. Yet we are still friends because we still have human respect.

There is never any agreement on here to agree to disagree and even listen, just a bunch of rightfully so very angry people on both sides...showing only the ugliest side of this borough and of human beings. No one on here is willing to admit that they don't know from a hole in the wall, the people they criticize, no more than they know anything really about Britney Spears.
But to say someone has "failed" is just a circumvented way of actually saying they succeeded, otherwise, you might be outside exercising, or taking note of something that supposedly "really mattered?" no?

Posted by: guest at October 15, 2007 1:55 PM

12:10, I did my research: I literally watched the entire march pass me by, which took about 90 seconds. The turnout was low and, yes, most of the people were white.

So what????????

Again...check the voting in this country. Good luck trying to motivate people to get out and do things.

Posted by: guest at October 15, 2007 1:56 PM

The times wrote the article fool.

And the fact that you see nothing class based (not racist) in that is ridiculous.
The same people who are "loitering" as he puts it, are the same people he is pretending to build housing and hoops for.

DUH

Posted by: guest at October 15, 2007 1:58 PM

i like white people. Some of them are even my friends.

Posted by: guest at October 15, 2007 2:04 PM

you literally watched the entire march...do you have nothing better to do than to watch a bunch of failed white people who are so self centered they take their sundays and evenings to make change. Gosh darn it!

Posted by: guest at October 15, 2007 2:05 PM

"But to say someone has "failed" is just a circumvented way of actually saying they succeeded"

OR, it could be a DIRECT way of saying they've failed!

Posted by: guest at October 15, 2007 2:20 PM

Nothing will stop the development of Atlantic Yards.This deal, along with the revamping of Myrtle Avenue and Downtown Brooklyn is a done deal secured under the Dinkins administration.All the protests, marches and demonstrations will not prevent it from happening.

Posted by: guest at October 15, 2007 2:31 PM

I walked in the march. There were 200 people. I would estimate that it probably took about ten minutes for the parade to pass by. This is why the cops blocked off streets as we passed. Using cars with flashing lights. If it were indeed 90 seconds they would have just used a traffic cop. I'd say the march was about 2 blocks long, so feel free to extrapolate numbers and duration using that as a benchmark.

Posted by: guest at October 15, 2007 2:41 PM

"But to say someone has "failed" is just a circumvented way of actually saying they succeeded"

OR, it could be a DIRECT way of saying they've failed!

But failed what???
You dare never explain what the heck you even mean.

It seems a success if at the very least some one like you now has something to do with your afternoons apparently.

What is this bar of failure you have set and defined?

If Ratner's way of succeeding is creating blight and bullying people into giving him what is theirs...then bring on failure man, cause that kind of success, is the kind that keeps a person awake late night as a very old person thinking, what have I done.

Posted by: guest at October 15, 2007 2:52 PM

The fact busybody NIMBYs can tell me what I can and cannot do with my property in and of itself is an offense, but to then use their same tactics to limit new develop during the worst housing shortage this city has ever experienced, is offensive.

HOW ARE WE LIMIITING HOUSING???

THERE IS PLAN THAT HAS HOUSING...and meanwhile Ratner now owns three buildings that are empty, if he gave his own rat's ass about the housing shortage, he would take the families now being turned away by the DOH and have them stay in his buildings since his "affordable" housing is part of his "maybe" Stage 2" of development. Even if everyone in the entire city and state loved this project and rolled out the red carpet....his "affordable" housing would not be built unitl AFTER he builds the luxury housing, and with no guarentee....so save us the bs that people who hate this Ratner bs are against creating housing, that is just more unfounded propaganda.

I mean be somewhat realistic, FCR is a corporation made up of rich white guys, stop pretending that the bottom line is not all they care about. Not Bertha Lewis, not the housing shortage, and certainly not you. And maybe there is nothing intrinsically wrong with that, but get real he is nothing new, he is not a savior to the masses, he is a developer with maybe a few smart tactics.

Posted by: guest at October 15, 2007 2:57 PM

1:58, Thanks but I was able to determine that from the giant NY TIMES at the top of the webpage and I haven't seen anywhere Ratner claiming he will create housing for a bunch of teenage miscreants.

Come on people get more shrill...its working...

No not really.

Posted by: guest at October 15, 2007 3:15 PM

Many funny comments here. But Bruce's remark about kids from the neighborhoods around th emall being the type who cut school really took me back -- to my own high scholl experience in the suburbs (LI). My friends and I regularly used to leave our private school during the day, take one of our nice cars given as 16th birthday present, and go hang out at the mall! I'd imagine it's a lot harder for the kids in school today to get out during the day that way.

Posted by: guest at October 15, 2007 3:31 PM

Polemecist --

AY is not a matter of one man using his private property. It's a matter of state government SEIZING one man's private property and bequething it to another. Do you support that???

Posted by: guest at October 15, 2007 3:46 PM

Tish James, Daniel GOldstein and winos like the Haggin Sisters! Now that is terrorism. Be done with them D-O-N-E-D-E-A-L.

Oh so convenient to harp on Prudential like duh why didn't we think of that now let's try it.

All of the above should go home sober up and find real work. Including the first two.

Posted by: guest at October 15, 2007 3:50 PM

1:36PM - So lets see b/c in your opinion Pataki, Bloomberg & Silver approved Ratner's plan in a dishonest manner then it is okay to use every argument (legitimate or not) to try to disrupt the plan from going through?

Seems to me if you want to gain credibility the counter to undemocratic and dishonest tactics is honesty and democracy. Putting up a wall of F-U-D will do nothing except further marginalize your agenda. (which is clearly happening - 200 people; only if you count babies, fetuses and the cops)

Getting back to the main point - it is shameless, dishonest and pathetic to try to prevent this development by using threats of terrorism.

Posted by: guest at October 15, 2007 3:51 PM

Anyone who thinks that this march took ten minutes to proceed and was two blocks long is delusional. When I saw it, Letitia James, at the front, was near the former location of Christy's and the last marcher was near American Apparel.

To the poster who asked, I did not choose to watch this march. I happened to be out food shopping as it occurred. Then I blinked my eyes and it was gone - just like the opponents' legal case.

Re: the definition of "failure", opponents have stated their goals to be blockage or reduction in size. To date, none of these goals have been reached. That is the definition of failure.

Posted by: guest at October 15, 2007 4:34 PM

1:56,

At your behest, I checked out voting in this country, at least through 1996:

http://www.australianpolitics.com/usa/elections/turnout.shtml

For argument's sake, let's shave off 30 percentage points of the lowest figure in the above chart, which would be 19%. I'll help you out even further by restricting the figures to Prospect Heights, which has 20,000 people. 20,000 x .19 = 3,800, significantly higher than your claimed attendance figure of 200. Even if 200 is correct, that is less than 1% of but one neighborhood surrounding the footprint.

Hence, I repeat, the attendance at this rally was dismal.

Posted by: guest at October 15, 2007 4:55 PM

C-O-O-K-E-D D-E-A-L

Posted by: guest at October 15, 2007 6:00 PM

from all the pictures of both events, it looked like more people showed up for the doggie halloween parade...gowanuslounge.com

Posted by: guest at October 15, 2007 6:58 PM

Hence, I repeat, you are dismal. I feel nothing but pity for you.
Surely there must be something more productive you can be doing with your time? You know what is dismal? the amount of people who actually read or care what you single person are saying on this blog. That is what is pathetic, failing and dismal. Surely you can try to find some better way to be heard? Your army of one, is a failure.
Albeit amusing!

Posted by: guest at October 15, 2007 7:19 PM

.19 = 3,800, significantly higher than your claimed attendance figure of 200

who is "your"

I give up, you are right, you convinced!! Finally, I love bruce ratner, I love the project, and raising over a 100,000 for non profit, that seemingly no one cares about is really just so dismal and pathetic.
Thank you, anonymous poster for making me FINALLY see that I have been so misguided to not believe everything I'm told or read in the papers. Thank you for letting me finally see how lame we have all been by taking conviction, by not bending over for Ratner. Thank you, I finally finally see the light.

Bless you, thank you.

Posted by: guest at October 15, 2007 7:24 PM

you guys sure spend much time looking through pictures, googling numbers, and insulting people, over something so insignificant. It is kind of weird.

Posted by: guest at October 15, 2007 7:25 PM

How many of those 20,000 PH residents actually vote? Do you have that number? Maybe after an afternoon snack?

Posted by: guest at October 15, 2007 7:30 PM

My pleasure, 7:24. It was hard work, but I'm glad that you've finally taken your head out of the clouds.

And regarding 7:19: "Your army of one, is a failure. Albeit amusing!"

Funny, that's what I've always said about Norman Oder.

D-O-N-E-D-E-A-L!!!

Posted by: guest at October 15, 2007 9:46 PM

Oh, BTW:

"How many of those 20,000 PH residents actually vote? Do you have that number?"

I have no idea, but I'm sure it's higher than 1%.

Posted by: guest at October 15, 2007 9:50 PM

How could you hear the call to prayer being broadcast on Atlantic Avenue if the AY was hit? Seems like the area is protected.

Posted by: guest at October 16, 2007 3:32 PM

And regarding 7:19: "Your army of one, is a failure. Albeit amusing!"

Funny, that's what I've always said about Norman Oder.

If that is what you find "funny" then that really explains quite a bit.

What might be funny, is that when you "always say that" do you answer yourself back in laughter, lamenting over the fact that no one knows who you are, nor do they care?

Posted by: guest at October 16, 2007 5:40 PM

Call it dismal or whatever else you think applies. However anybody who has worked even a day at a non-profit, grassroots community organization, especially one started completely by regular citizens, no government subsidies to speak of - knows....that raising 50,000 dollars from one event is nothing short of amazing. Fact. The stats have nothing to do with voter turn out. Any organization would be pleased to bits to raise that much money. There is nothing dismal about it all.

There is no argument to your accusations on that front, what so ever.

Posted by: guest at October 16, 2007 10:22 PM

So are you people who love Bruce and the arena, are you actually Nets fans? That actually makes zero sense.
Move to Jersey!!

Posted by: guest at October 17, 2007 9:13 AM

The important question to ask is will this 50K help opponents win their legal battle?

Of course it won't. Just today, Mr. Oder writes of yet another legal case that was dismissed. Wow, all that money raised is sure making a difference in court, isn't it?

Posted by: guest at October 17, 2007 12:40 PM

Nets players were at Barclays today handing out autographs and gear to the bankers.

Posted by: guest at October 17, 2007 8:13 PM