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October 1, 2007

Plan for Breathing Life into Downtown Ghost Parks

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In a Times profile of Project for Public Spaces founder founder Fred Kent, the urban anthropologist calls the half-mile stretch of parks running north of Borough Hall a prime example of public space that could be better utilized. According to Kent, the frequently deserted parks could be transformed into a lively pedestrian market like Las Ramblas in Barcelona. Kent envisions a market dotted with art stalls and produce stands that connects to the Brooklyn Bridge walkway, resulting in what “could be the best approach to the waterfront in the United States.” And Kent says the cost to develop the market would be less than $2 million, with rents from the market paying off the outlay within a couple of years. Seems like a great idea to us. Think it’s realistic?
Brooklyn Borough Hall [NY Times]




Posted by Gabby at 8:57 AM | Comments (29)
Categories: Parks, Planning

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Comments

Pure fantasy. And who would pay for it anyway?

I'm sick of people forever comparing NYC to Europe, with, of course, the latter always being considered superior.

Posted by: guest at October 1, 2007 9:05 AM

what's wrong with deserted areas. Aren't we crowded enough. It's nice to have a little space now and then.

Posted by: guest at October 1, 2007 9:13 AM

has Kent actually been to Las Ramblas in Barcelona in the past five years? It's pretty seedy. It's filled with really tacky, touristy restaurants and drug addicts. I don't know if it's an urban planning high point.

Posted by: guest at October 1, 2007 9:22 AM

I like the solitude of that park area. Lots of elderly people hang out there and folks on a break from their business at one of the courts, plus sometimes I see my super over there playing stickball at lunchtime. You could make it a bit more neighborhood-friendly with a dedicated bike path and a dog park, but I don't see the need for a strip of vendor stalls. As is, it's a nice visual and noise barrier between traffic on Cadman Plaza/Court Street and the traffic on Jay Street/Boerum Place.

Posted by: zeebee_in_bklyn at October 1, 2007 9:24 AM

I really don't see the comparison to Las Ramblas, which is really just a wide avenue with stores and apartments along either side. It is not a park in any sense. It is a city street. This park is underused, though. Could use more special activities but I don't know if a permanent market is the best idea.

Posted by: Carol Gardens at October 1, 2007 9:30 AM

Atlantic Terminal is ghetto

Posted by: guest at October 1, 2007 10:07 AM

two words: SHAKESHACK

http://www.110livingston.net/2007/08/27/five-guys-burgers-in-brooklyn-heights/

Posted by: guest at October 1, 2007 10:10 AM

When I think of Las Ramblas, I think of Los Addicts.

Posted by: guest at October 1, 2007 10:20 AM

Shhhake....shhhhack. [eyes dilate, hands tremble] If they would put one there on Cadman Plaza, I would start beating my child just so I could go to Family Court and have an excuse to go there for lunch afterwards.
[gulp, drool]

Posted by: Brenda from Flatbush at October 1, 2007 10:27 AM

don't think anyone on this board has been to las ramblas anytime in the last 5 years.

seedy? are you crazy?

it's like a runway for the young and fabulous. with a seedy character or two.

it's also a major tourist area...very much unlike this area of downtown brooklyn.

a farmers market type thing would be great, but the comparison to barcelona is pretty farfetched.

9:05...you don't think people compare themsevles to us in the u.s.? it's a two way street.

your insular sense of not being able to have a view outside your own country is pretty closed minded. and rather ignorant.

Posted by: guest at October 1, 2007 10:49 AM

If Cadman Plaza is improved where will our Borough President and his staff park their cars?

Posted by: guest at October 1, 2007 10:55 AM

it may have young and fabulous because it's NEAR young and fabulous, not a few miles away from them on a road to nowhere

Posted by: guest at October 1, 2007 11:00 AM

Keep George Clooney's parked there for a few more day and you won't need any further improvement.

Posted by: guest at October 1, 2007 11:01 AM

I play soccer there every now and then so I would hate to loose that, but it is a highly underutilized space. And pretty amazing considering that it is sandwiched between Brooklyn Heights and Dumbo, two of the most expensive neighbs in the borrough. Makes you wonder if those areas have too much outdoor space already. While other parts of Brooklyn are clamoring for more open space. But getting back to the topic, I say yes to the outdoor market.

Posted by: guest at October 1, 2007 11:04 AM

as long as the fair has some good stuff.

original stuff we don't see everywhere else at all those fairs.

like a true artist market...

or a real greenmarket...

not just schlock.

Posted by: guest at October 1, 2007 11:09 AM

it's underuitlized on the weekends, during the week it's packed. Every school from both sides of the Plaza uses that area as their playground. Baseball, soccer practices and recess from preK-12 monday - friday.

Posted by: guest at October 1, 2007 11:13 AM

I live a few blocks away and every time I walk past this area I think about how underutilized it is. Why not do some free little concerts or performances during the summer? An outdoor market would be a great idea. To those who would complain about losing space to playing soccer or whatnot...I never see more than like 3 or 4 people actually 'playing' there at any time. It's a huge space and if it could be used by 100 or more people at a time, I don't think there's much of an argument to make.

Posted by: guest at October 1, 2007 11:22 AM

I read the article in the New York Times yesterday, and I think Fred Kent has got some great ideas. I've never been to Barcelona, but I envision something like the book stands that line the Seine in Paris, along with artists vending their creations, maybe some nice jewelry stands like we have on Seventh Avenue in Park Slope, and if not produce stands (there is a greenmarket in the area, after all) then some upscale food vendors (or yes, something like Shake Shack!). I particularly like Kent's idea of building a skyway to the Brooklyn Bridge pedestrian walkway. I hate how the only options now are either to walk through the traffic on Adams Street, or find that dark hidden stairway at the north end of the Cadman Plaza parks.

I think Kent's vision is quite realistic, is relatively affordable, and would add value to the Court Street and Borough Hall area in many ways. So who do we lobby to consider this idea seriously?

Posted by: Park Sloper at October 1, 2007 11:29 AM

We do not want Las Ramblas -- it is nothing more than a wide "parkway" on a business street with a bunch of tourist stands and assorted street "artists" like at Times Square or South Street. However, there is a lot that could be done with some good stands -- and the skyway is very much needed. I would engage the hotels (Marriott and the new one on Duffield?), MetroTech BID, new Schermerhorn/Livingston BID. It will enhance the visitor ecperience. And for locals, like us, a park with no one in it is still sort of creepy in spite of longing for quiet -- too many thefts etc (Brooklyn Paper crime column).

Posted by: guest at October 1, 2007 12:32 PM

When do they have that tented vendor's area I remember seeing last year when I was on jury duty? That was a good idea, especially if they attract more artistic goods, instead of just tshirts, socks and cell phone covers. The vendors at the outdoor mall in Union Square near for Christmas is more like what I'd want to see, plus some food and produce/flowers. It can't all be high end, though, it won't work, not enough people will support it. They need to attract a nice mixture of affordable, yet cool, as well as expensive arts and crafts.

Posted by: guest at October 1, 2007 12:39 PM

When the Brooklyn Book Festival was held here just a few weeks ago, I realized it was the first I had used the park after living in Brooklyn since 1984. The publisher and bookseller tables were all located due north of Borough Hall. I'd like to see more amenities to draw people to the park.

Posted by: guest at October 1, 2007 1:22 PM

A weekend green market would be wonderful! Outside the Ferry Building in San Francisco might be a better goal to emulate than Las Ramblas. M-F there are local artists (yes, some with T-shirts, but a lot with photography, drawings and jewelry) and weekends a green market is added to the mix. Always nice to stroll through.

Posted by: guest at October 1, 2007 2:26 PM

The problem is the premise is WRONG - the areaparks are very well utilised especially now that the fieldturf was put down in front of the war memorial (where are all those skeptics admitting they were wrong) - the only section that isnt properly utilised is the Korean War memorial section in front of the post office - Otherwise there are greenmarkets, flea markets etc, etc, etc.

This is a solution is search of a problem

Posted by: guest at October 1, 2007 3:32 PM


"a market dotted with art stalls and produce stands"

-- Don't we have ENOUGH of these all over the city? Not to mention the every-block-has-one-in-the-summertime street fairs? How much of this crap are we supposed to buy, anyway?

Posted by: guest at October 1, 2007 5:22 PM

Brenda from Flatbush,

Beat your kids and enjoy your shake. Your eyes will dialate and your hands will tremble once again as you dine on the green baloney and stale bread served in Central Booking as Big Shiela snatches you up and tries to suck that shake back out of your mouth while she kisses you and tells you that you can call her "boo".

Posted by: guest at October 1, 2007 7:36 PM

Kent basically called Washington Sq Park the greatest in NYC. Anyone with that sort of aesthetic shouldn't be relied upon.

Posted by: guest at October 1, 2007 9:25 PM

Hmmm; I live nearby what I and my 2 year old call Cadman Plaza Park and we like it the way it is. I work part time, so we're not there every day, but at least a couple of days a week we make a point of walking through. In the northernmost part of the park (the part north of Tillary), my son loves to walk around, point out the flowers, see who's playing what sports (and we almost always see what look to be teams playing there not just a few folks -- often a couple of "games" going at a time). There are always other parents and nannies there with kids, hanging out and having snacks and lunch. Since the renovation was completed, it's always struck me as a nice, not-too-crowded, well utilized area.

I'm with 3:32pm. The only part that's underutilized is the part near the war memorial and the post office. On greenmarket days (Tuesdays and Saturdays . . . and Thursdays for part of the year, I think), the Borough Hall Plaza is hopping.

Posted by: guest at October 1, 2007 11:06 PM

What (I think, from experience) you always have to keep in mind whenever Fred Kent or PPS pops off is that their definition of success is crowds and activity. If you don't have a zillion people doing a bunch of stuff, then your place is a failure. As several people expressed above, some people prefer a more sedate experience, at least some of the time. During the lunch hours (in good weather), you will find one or two people having a quiet lunch in the Korean War Veterans Plaza. It's a nice place to decompress not too far off the beaten track. Could it be more lively? Absolutely. Need it be? Judgement call, although I know how PPS would answer.

Several people call for a farmers market, which makes me ask, 'forget about Las Ramblas, have you ever been to Columbus Park?' There has been a greenmarket three days a week in front of Borough Hall for years. And as for a venders market, there was one (Fridays in good weather) and it was not financially successful, despite being run by an experienced operator. Maybe it needs to be just, say, three times a year and advertised, especially if it is going to have higher quality goods, as several people suggested. A seasonal fair like the Christmas fair in Union Square has been considered by the parks department but has never gotten happened.

Another idea proposed by the agency is to issue a request for proposals for a food concession in the building at the corner of Cadman Plaza West and Tillary Street. Competitive bidding, so no guarantee of a Shake Shack. For an informal recreation space, the newly renovated area in front of the War Memorial gets a decent amount of use from the local schools and pick-up games.

I agree with 3:32, who said it in fewer words and opined, "This is a solution in search of a problem." Something else to remember about PPS: they are consultants and their pronouncements--as much as they sound like public service--are advertisements for hiring their services.

Posted by: g man at October 2, 2007 10:33 AM

Addendum: I'll let the bad writing stand, but add that I meant one or two people PER BENCH in the veterans plaza.

Posted by: g man at October 2, 2007 10:36 AM

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