Neighbors to Union Hall: Shut Up!

Boo-hoo. This is a city. If you want to hear crickets, move to the country.

Whine, whine, whine.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 9:34 AM

I was actually shocked as I went past there for the first time in ages at 11pm on friday or saturday night. What happened to my park slope? where were the studious crew-cut lesbians in black and the crunchy granola parents with plastic seats on their bikes and kids queuing for ices? nowhere. Instead it was like a chunk of pavement from 3rd ave and 60th. Young white trashy. Now I know who is buying the Crest and Nuvo etc.
I did hear the group of investors behind this bar are coining it. So you can expect one thing: more of the same.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 9:50 AM

Isn't it ironic that a bunch of overpaid, mba-having former frat boys are carousing at a place called "Union Hall?"

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 9:55 AM

9:34, I totally agree with you. These Union Street folks should embrace the noise and filth and let it turn them into the stress addled, impatient, masters of coping strategies type of New Yorkers we all strive to become.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 9:56 AM

Funny how empowered and outspoken the neighbors are when it comes to drunk white kids and how meek and quite they were only a year or 2 ago when Union btwn 4th and 5th was filled with non-whites playing dice, selling drugs and drinking till all hours of the night - pu$$ys

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 9:57 AM

I don't remember anything particular bad above 4th ave on union street, heck, 5 years ago, let alone 2. Although I didn't live on the block so perhaps you saw more if you peeked through your front curtains all the time.

If some "non-whites" played dice (wtf is wrong with that?) and drink on a stoop it is just brooklyn.

There is just something so much more obnoxious about braying frat boys / merchant wanking interns peeing against doors, and their coke-addled sweaty thonged prey. They are basically ... assholes. It would never occur to me to complain about a couple of guys smoking blunts and drinking 40s from brown paper bags.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 10:51 AM

Funny, I've lived a block over from Uninon Street and 4th for 4 years and I have never seen any nonwhites playing dice or selling drugs on it.

In fact I've never seen anyone playing dice in New York City. Dominoes, yes, but dice, never.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 10:57 AM

Union Street is loud no matter what. The addition of this venue to this street has added far more in home appreciation and cache than it has taken away from the neighborhood. Folks on that street need to realize this.

I go to Union Hall quite a bit as they really have some good bands come in. NEVER have I witnessed the allegations that the neighbors claim. It is a quite under control crowd every time I've been there.

Union Hall is one of the things Park Slope should be proud of and embrace. It has become one of the pre-eminent music venues in the entire city.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 10:58 AM

10:52, that is 9:57's point. Meatheads are meatheads, whether or not they have a GED or fraternity affiliation.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 10:58 AM

I think the food co-op is more annoying then that bar. The co-op always has trucks parked on the sidewalk and just walking up/down Union becomes an obstacle course.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 10:59 AM

I live on Union Street, and come on, it is a city. Fire engines blare their horns incredibly loudly all night long going past, yahoos idle blasting annoying songs, but I live with it as it is an urban environment. As Union Hall is a bar, I'm sure there are shouting drunks and fights on occasion. That said, I think it could be so much worse. I feel like there are fewer people hanging out out front than many other bars in Brooklyn. Also, Union Hall is one of those rare buildings where there is nothing above it. Downslope is a bank/gym, not a residence.

Park Slope is famous for being namby-pamby and I just hope a small group of whining oldsters don't ruin it for everyone. Union Hall is a terrific addition to the neighborhood--first place that's not a dive or a yuppie bar. Located on fifth, they'd have a lot more impact on residents than in the one story, adjacent to a commercial space they are now.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 11:00 AM

Not to mention that they have their own (very nice, I might add) smoking section off to the side of the building so there are almost NEVER more than a person or two standing out front on Union smoking.

I would love to know how many of those 76 complainers are under 76 years old.

Probably 2.

This is absurd.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 11:04 AM

Yes: smoking section keeps people off the sidewalk. Bands play only in the basement. I have NEVER heard music while walking past. I really would like to know who is being affected by this and how specifically?

Also, can we start a petition to support high quality music venues that raise property values in Park Slope?

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 11:11 AM

I'm amazed at the vitriol in this comment log, but, as I'm unfamiliar with the usualy players on this site, I'll assume this may be the norm. The boohoos you hear ARE from longtime warriors on this block who've fought and survived the drug infested days only to have the state approve a liquor license for a nuisance bar on a residential block and allow a rock venue in a building that shares a wall with a residence. When the crowds leave between midnight and 4 in the morning, the block turns into mardi gras. We wish this on NONE of our neighbors, and will do all we can to rid our block of this business and be sure the state doesn't do this to happen to any of you either. If the 75 signers of our letter of complaint don't convince you a problem exists then you're choosing to ignore reality. Every fight is about a livable community, be it against drugs, for affordable housing, against nuisance bars, for community gardens or against evil developers. This is the history of Park Slope and I'm proud to stand in support of its warriors. -- jon crow

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 11:20 AM

john...your comments are always so cynical and disgusting. do you EVER have anything good to say?

i work in the music industry and yes...union hall is HIGHLY respected as a music venue. they present really great up and coming bands and almost always have a great crowd. that's considered successful in this world.

no they don't present barry manilow, so i can see how you might be disappointed.

i notice you didn't list any of the "dozen infinitely better venues in Manhattan and Brooklyn?" but only criticized this one.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 11:24 AM

"When the crowds leave between midnight and 4 in the morning, the block turns into mardi gras."

LOL. God, you're an idiot. If the Develop Don't Destroy People didn't learn from their mistakes that making ridiculous and outlandish comments only defeats your cause further, you should take a hint.

If this is a residential block as you say, then I sure hope you are also trying to put the Food Co-op, Bicycle Shope, Brown Harris Stevens and Tastidelight out of business as well.

I GUARANTEE you that for your measly 75 signatures againist Union Hall, there are HUNDREDS of people supporting it.

I am one of them, and as a major player in the Music Industry plan to make sure that crazies like you get put in your place.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 11:29 AM

There's a lot of making fun of Bay Ridge and frat boys is going on supposedly in the interest of maintaining quality of life.

I for one am tired of all the middle-aged, slobby, passive agressive breeder blowhards with bad hair, 2nd-tier-school liberal arts degrees, and bags full full of Food Coop beans who think that park slope should stay like it was through the 70s and 80s so they can hide from the types of people who terrorized them through high school.

I've seen a fight at Union Hall. It was a bunch of goth girls with Irish accents beating the crap out of skinny guy with a scraggly beard. If this is what passes for fratboys and meatheads these days, then the world has it pretty easy.

Enough of your Jon Crow laws already.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 11:32 AM

I'd like to see the 311/911 logs of these neighbors complaints. Is there a long paper trail, or just 'hearsay'? not saying there aren't problems, I don't live there. Just curious what sort of documented ammo these complaintees have.

Oh and:

"i notice you didn't list any of the "dozen infinitely better venues in Manhattan and Brooklyn?" but only criticized this one."

Where to begin? Bowery Ballroom, Mercury Lounge, Williamsburg Hall Of whatever it's called - formerly North 6, Warsaw, Luna Lounge, Cakeshop, Pianos, Hiro, etc. etc.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 11:33 AM

seriously-

Old grumpy people watch your back, there is a change afoot in the North Slope, and we want you out of our neighborhood.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 11:35 AM

Yes, all good music venues. This and SouthPaw should be added to that list.

Although many of the ones you mention have a much larger capacity and don't really present the same sortof of cutting edge stuff that Union Hall does.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 11:35 AM

I believe the point here is that the benefit that Union Hall provides to the community FAR outweighs the negative.

Anyone who doesn't realize that is a fool.

You all do realize how utterly pathetic a 76 person petition is, RIGHT??

76 is the same as 5.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 11:39 AM

jon crow laws...

haha.

and union hall isnt as meatheadish as 200 5th, Voodoo or Loki.

DANNG!!!!!!!

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 11:40 AM

Voodoo is the absolute worst. How come no petition against that? I can't stand that old threatening guy who's always sittiing outside, and the throngs of dudes who walk back and forth between the bar and the doorways halfway down the block to smoke their trees.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 11:45 AM

This is ridiculous. People complain about almost anything. In reality, the foot traffic union hall creates at all hours probably does more to stymie crime than the 76 complaining residents.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 11:47 AM

They neglect to mention that 1 person signed that petition 70 of those times.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 11:49 AM

This is pretty funny. I have to agree with 99% of the other posters on this one. This is a city and by no means is Union a residential street. It is a mix and has a number of commercial spaces. The people who live on Union either (i) knew this when they bought or rented there (and probably got a better price because of it) or (ii) moved in a very long time ago and are thus sitting on a goldmine due to the changes (like this one) in the neighborhood and should be thanking their lucky stars instead of @#$$%ing.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 12:16 PM

I've been in Union Hall a couple of times - its real nice btw.
I have not seen anyone who can be fairly labeled "frat boy" - nor do the musical acts appear to be catered to a 'frat boy' audience.

And to concur with 9:57 - if you have never seen any of the dice/drinking/drugs described (were your eyes open circa 2004 and prior) then I ask why are there no complaints about the incredible loud and rowdy 'street party' that occurs every Sunday outside 200 5th - I am sure it isn't because the patrons appear to be majority non-white.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 12:26 PM

I am a drunken frat boy and it is my culture to express my self loudly. I'm am offended by your prejudice attitude it is my culture

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 12:27 PM

"there is a change afoot in the North Slope"

"This is a city and by no means is Union a residential street"

"the benefit that Union Hall provides to the community FAR outweighs the negative"

Yes! HEAR, HEAR!

....and cooler than-thou-music-snob(s), please try to understand that not everyone can be as hip as you

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 12:43 PM

Jon Crow is the Union Street Block Association guy, right? Anyone have any insight into this associations past activities? Is this the same organization gave spoke the hub a hard time about their tree pit decorations a while back because they wouldn't decorate it the same way as everyone else?

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 12:58 PM

"I'd like to see the 311/911 logs of these neighbors complaints."
--wouldn't be relevant as all calls are anonymous. One person calling 100 times registers as 100 complaints. It's a flaw in Bloomberg's system..

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 1:02 PM

wow. are the people who are so violently (and rudely) pro-union hall paid by the owners or what? who could love a bar that much? or maybe there are just a lot of bored 13-year-olds sitting around at home who think it's cool to troll brownstoner and mock old people, park slope inhabitants, etc. how juvenile.

listen. i've been to union hall twice. it's not a bad bar, besides being too crowded on weekends and having a crowd that consists entirely of 28 to 31-year-old young professionals checking each other out. i mean, whatever. they need to drink somewhere, don't they?

but i've also lived down the block from a similar venue that had music until all hours of the night. and it drove me absolutely nuts. people don't realize that at 3 in the morning, when they're coming out of a bar and calling across the street to their friend to wait up, they're waking up the neighbors, no matter how good the soundproofing is in the venue itself.

you don't have to be a frat boy, or a public urinator, or a brawler to wake people up at 3 in the morning. and the street doesn't have to be dead quiet during the day to make it a decent place to live. this is the city, and there will be noise, we all know that. but people yelling, or singing, or even talking loudly on their cellphones outside your bedroom window at three in the morning, not once or twice but consistently, night after night, for months, or years, will definitely make you a crazy person.

fortunately, there are laws against businesses that make that much noise. and the noise laws just got more stringent, so businesses get fined a LOT if their patrons are disturbing the peace. i'm sure the people who signed the letter will get their day in court. i guess that's what union hall's owners are worried about.

for what it's worth, i know people call the cops on voodoo all the time. i've seen a traffic jam of cop cars and guys being handcuffed out front more than a few times over the past summer...

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 1:02 PM

311 calls are not necessarily anonymous. i've called 311 on noise complaints several times, and they give you the option of leaving your name and address so you can track your complaint later and see how it's been handled.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 1:13 PM

I agree that the "frat boy" characterizations here are way off the mark. Anytime I've been to Union Hall, I've rarely seen that type. It's a city, folks, and a growing and lively one at that. If you can't handle that, then sell your $3M brownstone and buy an estate in rural Kansas.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 1:30 PM

1:02 PM- not paid by UH. Don't even really like to go there. However, I don't like to see desirable businesses driven out of my neighborhood.

Maybe it's not a conspiracy by the owners of the club. Maybe the posting just touched a nerve. A lot of people were excited about Union Hall opening, about the fact that there was a place to go that was visually intersting with varied events, and that they didn't have to leave the slope to get drinks.

Maybe people are addressing what seems like a gross overreaction. Union Street is still relatively quiet compared to other bar streets in BKLN, even at 3AM.

Lastly, whatevs to your 13yo comment. You're on the board too, so who knows who you really are, how old you are, or why you're generalizations and name callings are any more valid than the rest of the posters.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 1:37 PM

I totally agree with you, 1:37.

I was one of the previous Union Hall supporters and no, not paid by the owner either.

The comments about music playing at 3am is simply a lie.

Shows there start with a opening band that goes on around 8 or 8:30, the main act somewhere between 10 and 11 and then the show is over, typically around midnight on night's of a show. maybe 1 at the latest.

Lots of lies by the anti-Union Hall crowd.

To be expected by people who are desperate for people to listen to them.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 1:48 PM

park slope is the old hoboken too.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 1:48 PM

Park Slope is also a wonderful neighborhood.

There are reasons is gets nominated for these top 10 lists, etc.

Union Hall is a part of that. Very much so, in fact.

Park Slope would not be what it is if it were simply a residential-only neighborhood.

I hope more places like Union Hall open up. One in the South Slope would be a huge hit.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 1:55 PM

Well said, 1:37. Even Develop Don't Destroy, a group that has arguably worked the hardest to prevent the advancement of Brooklyn, has held fundraisers at Union Hall.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 1:57 PM

I do not work for Union Hall, nor does anyone here. Get a grip 1:02.

I have never seen the noise and crowds outside Union Hall that 1:02 describes. Remember Summer is a factor. Summer brings everyone outside but it only lasts a few short months, then it's cold again and everyone's inside. Every street everywhere is noisier in Summer.

As for expecting quiet on Union Street - huh? I'm sensitive to noise and I'd never live on a major commercial/residential street like that. It's just common sense. Accept and live with the choice you made to live on Union.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 2:03 PM

You're painting the picture like it's an outdoor stadium in the middle of Ditmas Park, 2:02.

Here's the reality. The bands play in a soundproofed basement. I've been on the main floor of the bar and can't hear the band playing. So um, how exactly do those down the street hear it? Union Hall is directly behind a large gymnasium, and right near one of the largest commercial avenues in Brooklyn. It is across the street from an ice cream place that stays open late at night in Summer and Fall and where people also congregate on the sidewalks, also it's down the street from a large fire station. There are several bars/restaurants on Union all up and down. Anybody who moved to Union wanting quiet is crazy.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 2:09 PM

another wonderfully upbeat comment from johnife.

you sound like the most miserable person around.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 2:09 PM

Someone above wrote that this block of union is not residential, that it has the coop, bike shop, etc. on it. Actually, the businesses and the firehouse are in the next block up the hill between 7th and 6th.

That said, sure, music venues are great and bars are great, I'm a tweener, not a 20-something, not a "mom", and not a fuddy-duddy yet. Still, I know for a fact, that when a store closes and a bar comes, there can be a lot of noise issues for the residence surrounding it.

Though night venues are great, they really can disrupt a block where there had been no such business before.

Particularly with Union Hall, it has windows that open up full in the front which can generate a lot of reflected noise in the street and facing houses.

Does anyone know if the owners post a "Please be considerate of our neighbors" signs.

Moe's on Lafayette generates a lot of noise but they make an effort to ask their patrons to keep it down.

Habana Outpost on Fulton is another story. Since it's basically open air, the noise carries all over the place. People up in the Griffin apartment building on Lafayette can't open their windows during the warm season and can even hear the music with windows closed.

Remember, noise complaints are the number one reason for calls and complaints to the City and precincts.

People seem to think someone who doesn't want to hear noise should move to the suburbs... All over the country, burb residents are up in arms every day over neighbors creating too much noise from speakers, power tools, domestic disputes, etc. Doesn't it stand to reason that in an urban setting where we live in much more densely packed neighborhoods that we need to be extra considerate about others.

So what if we're exposed to more noise due to traffic, garbage trucks, buses? I'm sure anyone of the rather obnoxious posters to this thread has already experienced or would eventually be P'd off having a downstairs neighbor blasting music all the time, someone coming in every morning at 2AM in heavy shoes and stomping around above them, etc.

Remember, Union Hall is a private business that one way or another is going to impact the neighbors. Any noise pollution, etc. that they allow/don't care about, is a cost of doing business that is transferred to all the residents next door and across the street. Same as with other types of pollution: cost of doing business that is often transferred to the public.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 2:12 PM

If those who complain about this place had ever set foot inside Union Hall, you would know that what 2:09 says is true. You would also know that the bands playing here are not Kiss nor Guns and Roses. Not even close.

We are talking about guys (and gals) who play guitar and sing with perhaps another guy on guitar and some percussion. These are indie rock groups for the most part...not heavy metal hard core rock or anything of the sort.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 2:15 PM

"Actually, the businesses and the firehouse are in the next block up the hill between 7th and 6th. "

Yup, and the farther UP THE HILL you go, the more residential Park Slope becomes.

Right near 5th...and certainly between 5th and 6th is a loud block. With or without Union Hall. 5th is the main commercial corridor of Park Slope.

You just proved the point about how ridiculous the complaints are.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 2:17 PM

"Doesn't it stand to reason that in an urban setting where we live in much more densely packed neighborhoods that we need to be extra considerate about others. "

You don't think having the music in the basement in an insulated environment (which by the way, as another poster mentioned...you CAN NOT EVEN HEAR THE MUSIC WHEN YOU ARE IN THE MAIN FLOOR BAR) is being extra considerate???

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 2:20 PM

I hear you 2:12, but do you really think Union Hall makes more noise than the bars and clubs in Manhattan which are also fully surrounded by residential apartments and condos? Because it doesn't. Manhattan has even more noise, and people pay a lot more for their properties for the privilege to hear it!

If you have a legitimate complaint the city will hear it. But you can't just sign a petition *saying* it's too noisy. Nothing will come of that. You will, like everyone else, have to hire a noise expert to record and PROVE the noise you get inside your home is above the allowed noise levels for NYC.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 2:21 PM

Here is a suggestion - if your Union Hall claims are true, then get out your video camera (or use the one built in to your camera or phone) and record this alleged "mardi-gras" and post it on You-Tube. Then link to it from one of the many online boards that cover this kinda stuff (including Brownstoner) and then maybe you'll get some support but until then:

video or it didnt (doesnt) happen

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 2:22 PM

Hey John Ife, 2:09 here, I posted NONE of the attacks on you on this thread. So you just insulted the wrong person. Nice job.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 2:23 PM

johnife you are so brave.

i wish i could have balls as large as yours by creating a ficticious handle on brownstoner.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 2:24 PM

Can you provide a link for your professional bio online, John Ife, or a Facebook link, something? Didn't think so. When I googled "John Ife" all I got was a bunch of posts on brownstoner and other brooklyn blogs. Your name is phony.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 2:29 PM

This is hilarious. John Ife, who is just as anonymous as anyone else on this board, wants accolades for registering? Oh my God, that is hysterical! Yea, John, you are sooo brave. You make soldiers or firefighters seem wimpy. Biggest balls ever.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 2:30 PM

Walking by Union Hall last weekend at 2AM--my friend and I peeked in the front windows and started were deciding on whether to go in our not. A bouncer came out within two minutes, and told us we needed to make sure we were not loitering and talking in front of the place. Nicely invited us in or asked us to move on so that we wouldn't bother the neighbors.

Seems to me like they are trying hard to be good to the block.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 2:31 PM

Seems like the consensus is that posters in this blog think that living in NYC gives you the right to be an ass. So this place has carte blanche to make noise and irritate neighbors so that it can make $$$ by selling drinks?

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 2:31 PM

See post at 2:31.

I have had this experience as well. They are extremely aware and courteous of the neighbors.

I think those 76 people (or 76 signatures by the same old bag) need to go talk to the folks at Union Hall. You know...TALK?

Not just sign some silly petition.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 2:35 PM

So basically what you're saying, 2:12, is that we should close Union Hall and the Habana Outpost.

These are two of the most unique, exciting, and interesting places not only in Brooklyn, but in the whole city.

Seriously? Complaining about Habana Outpost? That place is universally loved!

And all this talk about loudness at 3am just doesn't garner any pity. Bars close at 4. if you have loudness at 4:30 or 5am, then it's time to complain.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 2:35 PM

Again, it is not about 1) the type of music 2) the level the music is played at 3) the soundproofing of any basement. The most aggravating noise for residents who live in a neighborhood in which a new bar/evening venue opens up is often the noise of the patrons...patrons going back and forth in the street, calling out to friends, talking like it's 1PM on a Midtown street, screaming "Oh, my G-d!!! I was like so..." or "Dude, was'goin'on?!" into cellphones. Not that the Union Hall crowd is necessarily a particularly overexcited type...but if you're one of the boosters on this thread, more into a place with your bedroom facing a store across the street and hope a bar takes over the space...make sure the tenant upstairs does aerobics and that the part-time DJ downstairs forgets, though he agreed a number of times, to use his headset when he's testing out mixing ideas and ends up vibrating your apartment to Kingdom Come.

Listen, all you "Well then go back Cuba!"/"Get out of NYC" flingers: First of all ya' sound like Archie Bunkers. Second of all, who says the burbs are so quiet and peaceful...talk about a place people gripe! The burbs can be horrible. Neighbors are often at each others' throats: "Mom, why don't you go over to that nice couple that just moved in?" "Honey, I don't even say hello to that lady. Do you know what she had the nerve to come over and say to me a week after they moved in?!..." How many of us have heard this from burb-living family?

My mother-in-law is experiencing problems from the other end of the day: somehow, all the parents nearby decided to use her house which is on a corner and has a stone wall as the meeting place for their kids' over-priced private mini-school bus to pick them up...not infront of the house of one of the families that has a kid in the school. My m-i-l is not young, has no need to get up early (and is kind of ghastly if she does! LOL!). She hates it but doesn't want to appear to be the "mean old lady"...plus she is kind of scared to confront the parents but now, every morning she lies in bed listening to kids running and screeching all over the place, yuppy parents blabbing at full blast and not supervising their kids much so they're using the stone wall as a balancing beam, etc. Do I hear "insurance problem" anyone. Plus, the kids do a certain amount of damage on the lawn, wall and her elaborately planted front yard.

Basically, what I'm saying is consideration is needed anywhere you live/go/get services/get entertained. In a residential or mixed use block in Brooklyn, wouldn't it make sense that if people seem to be impacted enough to complain and sign a petition, the owners of a private business had better make a real effort to minimize the impact their money-making has on the residents?

And...by the way, I'm going to stay overnight at my mother-in-law's some point and let the yuppies have a piece of my mind one school morning. ;-)

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 2:39 PM

76 people does not a petition make.

Sorry.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 2:46 PM

But Union Hall SHOULD get credit for minimizing their impact on the neighbors. Check out the place before you judge or make blanket statements about bars' impact on neighborhoods. Bands play in the basement, and they keep the windows closed. They are in a building without residents and at least on one side, there are no residents. They way they created the smoking area minimizing second-hand smoke and noise on the street. They are near a major commercial strip and a subway which attract crowds regardless of their existence. Plus, Union St. has never been a bucolic idyll. I live on Union and 8th and street noise (cars, sirens, drunks passing) is a fact of life. There are people in Park Slope that will be unhappy with ANYTHING. I'm sure nothing the bar could do would satisfy the petitioners, and if UH wasn't there, there would be something else for them to get their panties in a bunch about. A conscientious business deserves the right to exist and serve the neighborhood!

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 2:50 PM

2:50 is right. Talk to a business directly if you'd like them to do more, but please reward a business that does make an effort to be conscientious. Otherwise what's their reward for trying so hard and what on earth will encourage them to do it again, at the next business they open?

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 3:02 PM

Just a bunch of crabby old people with nothing better to do. Go get a life.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 3:02 PM

I don't believe the petitioners are anyone more than an 80 year old living next door.

There is ZERO possibility that anyone other than an abutting building would hear noise from this venue.

As for people on the street talking loudly. They are there with or without Union Hall.

Union Street is a loud thoroughfare. You should have researched this before you moved to the neighborhood. Any idiot knows Union is loud.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 3:03 PM

park slope is full of these phony "liberals." people who scream their liberal politics but are totally personally conservative and can't compromise or be flexible. it's the san francisco of NYC.

invite union hall and it's patrons to williamsburg . even us married folks would welcome you.

there is a home for creativity, energy and style. and it is not in park slope.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 3:13 PM

You're right, 3:13.

Galapagos was so successful in Williamsburg.

That's why they left.

Comparing a beautiful residential neighborhood with world class architecture and a bucolic setting to a former burned out wharehouse district is not really fair. Of course you'd take Union Hall. You'd take anything. Williamsburg is the whore of New York City culture and everything else for that matter.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 3:25 PM

It's just SO not true these are the owners posting here. Dream on.

Nothing to discuss anyway. After said petition is submitted, the city will merely send someone from ECB to measure the noise officially, inside the residences, not outdoors, and at that point you'll have no case because it will prove the noise is not loud enough. Done.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 3:29 PM

I am one of the fervent supporters of Union Hall and I assure you I have no connection to the place in the manner you are suggesting.

There are some really pathetic people on bronwstoner who think that anytime anyone supports something that they MUST be a broker, developer, owner etc.

It really shows so much about your personality....basically that you are living in such a void that you find nothing worthy of caring about.

I care about Union Hall. I live in the neighborhood and think it's an incredible gift to have such a venue in Park Slope. I go there, I support it and I bring people from other neighborhoods there to show off my neighborhood sometimes. They are always duly impressed.

That's the reason for my support. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 3:35 PM

Billyburg ain't nothing but Love Canal with condos.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 3:44 PM

I think everyone agrees that whoever submitted the petition has the right to do so. I think everyone agrees that it's normal to be pissed when people keep you up at night. I think most of the posters are just saying that:
1. it's an unfortunate fact of life that houses but up against bars in Brooklyn
2. Most people here don't live next to a the bar and happen to like Union Hall
3. Most people here are therefore rooting against the homeowners because they care more about having Union Hall than they care about the people complaining.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 3:46 PM

If people complained because of Webster Hall or because of Bowery Ballroom or if Union Hall were sitting on Prospect Park West, I could perhaps understand it.

The music portion of this place is nothing more than a glorified coffee shop open mic night in terms of the noise.

That's why this petition seems so foolish I think....Not because I don't care about the people complaining.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 3:59 PM

3:13 you could not be more wrong -

Park Slope is full of REAL liberals - thats why they rage about white people going to an establishment that apparently (I cant confirm) does as much as it can to be a good neighbor - and calls the patrons Frat/MBA-types (even when by every indication there not)
and
being real liberals is why they rant about noisy kids and yuppie parents and over-priced PRIVATE schools(2:39pm)
and
this is why not only will they not complain but actually see nothing wrong with non-whites involved with sidewalk dice games and public drinking (10:51am) - even though both are illegal.

If that patronizing obnoxious hypocritical double standard doesn't make these Park Slopers REAL liberals I dont know what would.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 4:05 PM

sidewalk dice games became illegal when?

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 4:11 PM

So you wanna be Ballers? Shot Callers? Union Hallers?

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 4:13 PM

4:11 try
NY State Penal Law 240.35

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 4:41 PM

dice games have been illegal since forever. i should know, because i was arrested in one in south philly in 1962. i served 39 years in state prison and now i'm out. i see a psychiatrist once a month and a psychotherapist once a week. i also take three types of psychotropic medication. but i no longer gamble, becuase it is against the law. thank you.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 4:48 PM

You served 39 years for playing DICE??

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 5:01 PM

No, for playing YOU, 5:01. Hee hee.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 5:41 PM

4:48 PM, you win the thread.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 6:11 PM

Union Hall is great for fucking and sucking and doing coke because the bathroom doors fully close you in. It's also good for bocce and burgers.

Fuck the neighbors. UH ROCKS!

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 8:23 PM

240.35 NYS PL - Loitering

a person is guilty of loitering when he:

2. Loiters, remains or wanders about in a public place for the purpose of gambling with cards, dice or other paraphernalia.

Playing dice in public only becomes illegal when a bet is placed. It is an otherwise quite legal form of entertainment.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 9:10 PM

I wonder if getting sucked off at union hall is legal?

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 9:16 PM

9:16 - At least it would be easy given the co-ed bathroom.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 9:33 PM

that place and you people are (wokers in) a dildo factory.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 9:36 PM

i AM GOING TO FUCKIN THROW UP

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 9:41 PM

NYS Pl 240.35

3. a person is guilty of loitering when they remain in a public place for the purpose of engaging or soliciting another person to engage in deviate sexual intercourse or other sexual behavior of a deviate nature.

"getting sucked off" is considered deviate sexual behavior in the State of NY. So, yes 9:16 that would be illegal. If the act is committed for a fee, it then becomes one of the Prostitution charges (230.02-230.40)

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 9:42 PM

It's "deviant," not deviate. Good jurisprudence on your part though.

So is it illegal if "The What" sucks himself off in the Union Hall toilet?

Cuz that's what he's doing tonight. It's a "date"!

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 9:56 PM

The penal law words it as "deviate"

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 10:03 PM

"penal"

you bet it is!

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 10:08 PM

Deviant would the the adjective. I forgot to thank you for complimenting my "good jurisprudence." Unfortunately I just started Law School this semester and will no longer have the time to frequent UH where I am I should be able to get life experience credit in all of the above listed activities.

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 10:10 PM

a sex act would have to be utterly bizzarre to be considered deviate in NYC, no?

Community norms clearly include gang fisting, BSDM, and who knows what else.

A suck job at Union Hall? puh-leeze...that's JV stuff

Posted by: guest at October 12, 2007 10:14 PM

I see moms with strollers there every day. How wild can it really be?

Posted by: guest at October 13, 2007 12:56 AM

depends...if it's The WHat's mom, you can expect some pretty nasty shit.

Posted by: guest at October 13, 2007 1:24 AM

Park Slope is nice but sucks too. This place has losts it unique flavor. Unfortunate!!

Posted by: guest at October 13, 2007 2:29 PM

I live right across the street from UH and I have never had an issue with the noise coming from it. I might not mind as much because I enjoy the bar and moved from a much louder street, but I still think that the people complaining need to try to deal.

Several months ago I was approached by a woman in her sixties with a real sour expression who asked me to sign the petition. When I told her that the bar does not really bother me, she gave me this really nasty look and walked away. Whenever we pass each other on the street now, she glares at me like I killed her cat or something. She strikes me as a super complainy never happy with anything kind of person.

Posted by: guest at October 13, 2007 3:47 PM

Park Slope is about to so over in a minute anyway. It is no longer a destination. Fort Greene and Clinton Hill are right behind it. As the people who gentrified these areas start to age, so did the vibe. Park Slope will be like Brooklyn Heights in a couple of years. I prefer the vibe in Williamsburg and DUMBO. Hell I'll even venture into Bushwick.

Posted by: guest at October 13, 2007 5:20 PM

I go to Bushwick all the time when I feel like getting shot in the face.

Posted by: guest at October 13, 2007 8:08 PM

Twenty years ago people use to go to Park Slope if they felt like getting shot in the face or just felt like shooting up. So you ain't sayin nothin. That's what gives the neighborhood that edge. A true hipster can handle it. Keep your beloved Park Slope granny, yuppie, or you fill in the blank, where you call the sanitation police to report a 6 year old for writing on the sidewalk with chalk and her mom is given a $300 fine for graffiti. Sanitation Department spokeswomen Kathy Dawkins stated that they do "not consider a child's chalk drawing graffiti but if residents call and complain; we have to respond."

Posted by: guest at October 13, 2007 9:05 PM

Yeah, yeah, yeah! And then you grow old and die, you old fart. It was dumb young people who wanted to be hip, that made today's wannabe "hot" neighborhoods what they are today. Yes, we then grow out of wanting to be hip, smarten up and become fairly rich. Some of us will even marry an alpha female or beta mansy-pansy male and have children that we will push around in big ass bugaboos! When that happens some COOL, HOT, YOUNG and HIP smart-ass will respond to my blog post by calling me an old fart and telling me why they choose to live in up and coming Brownsville!

Posted by: guest at October 13, 2007 10:30 PM

PS people never struck me as smart or rich. it's the haven for people who like dingy rooms and don't have vision to live anywhere more interesting. viewed many properties while looking to buy and saw the ugliest furnishings, dumbest layouts and renovations.

Posted by: guest at October 14, 2007 12:30 AM

I was there last night too...and GOT LAID!!!

lovemylife.

Posted by: guest at October 14, 2007 1:23 PM

Check it:

I party all over this boro. Park Slope has got more than most. If you don't know than at least act like you do. Kooks.

Willyberg has been over since they closed the Ships Mast. Way over.

BTW-
Union Hall is a shitbox. Not worth fightin over.

Posted by: guest at October 14, 2007 9:24 PM

Now....if they try to close Jackie's Fifth, that's a reason to go to battle.

Posted by: guest at October 14, 2007 9:37 PM

I live directly across the street from Union Hall and signed the petition and I am not an old-timer. I don't have any issues with a bar being in that place. I only have issues with how the place manages the patrons once they leave the bar. They loiter outside for substantial amounts of time waiting for a cab, fighting, and just being obnoxious. Perhaps the managment should hire security to work the door and keep the sidewalk clear of drunks. As for the bar itself; it's as lame and predictable as their other bar Floyd.

Posted by: guest at October 15, 2007 12:24 PM

I LOVE UNI0N HALL!!!

OPEN ANOTHER ONE IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD, PLEASE!!!!!

Posted by: guest at October 15, 2007 12:37 PM

It's remarkable the depth and magnitude of emotion this article has sparked in the commentators, both for and against Union Hall. Ultimately, this is about a business-- how a profit-making enterprise conducts its business, and the impact it has on its environment.
It is striking how many commentators here have harshly denigrated the claims of those affected by the bar; yet one wonders how many have lived next door to a live-music venue. It almost seems that there is a sheen of denial, or guilt, perhaps, at learning that a place that one enjoys can cause others to suffer.
It is indeed a particular paradox, perhaps, of a culture where we call ourselves "liberal", that can have us making apologies for a profit-making enterprise that exploits the well-being of its neighbors, simply because it is a place we like to go to have a drink. It is almost the reverse of the knee-jerk "not in my back yard!"-- just because it is not in your backyard, does it mean that someone else's claim, in who's backyard it is, is no less valid?
It is also surprising that so many commentators who are perhaps occasional visitors to the bar idly suggest that because they were shooed away by a bouncer at 2 am the bar is doing all that it can, or that the residents talk to the owners instead of signing a petition. One wonders if it does not occur to them that once friendly measures fail to make a difference, more extreme measures are in order...
Perhaps they would do well to inquire of the neighbors themselves whether they have spoken to the bar's owners; or in their place, speak to them on their own initiative. This city would be a greater place if more of us took on our neighbors' causes for own.

Posted by: guest at October 15, 2007 4:40 PM

Thanks 4:40. At least a voice of reason. The nonsense that was being written was getting me down. Unfortunately, since this article is timing out off the current week's main webpage, few will be able to read your sound words. I also wrote quite a bit (I'm getting to be known for my long blog entries).
Thanks!
FortGreener

Posted by: guest at October 15, 2007 8:06 PM

"This city would be a greater place if more of us took on our neighbors' causes for own."

My neighbor owns Union Hall. Not really- but what's your point? They make money so they're evil? Were friendly measures taken? It can't be much louder than, say, Southpaw- is it? It just doesn't seem like it's that wild. Where did the 70 whatever people go to party and hear music when they were younger? They would have laughed themselves into peeing if some old lady had yelled out the window to quiet down. Same thing. It's just funny how people change and can't remember. As soon as something is too high on the fun-o-meter, someone has to scream.

Posted by: guest at October 16, 2007 1:22 PM

As a Union Street resident, I'd like to point out that Union Street between 5th and 6th avenue is not a commercially zoned block-- it's residential. True, there are a few businesses on either ends of the block that fall under the "100 foot-rule" (the commercially zoned avenues can have business areas extending 100 feet into a residentially zoned area), but UH is more than 100 ft from the avenue, and therefore fronts onto several residences-- as well as abutting a residential apartment building on one side. This block is zoned differently than the one between 6th and 7th avenues.
While there may be many other rowdy bars in the neighborhood, there are not many that are so closely placed on a residential street.
Unlike many of the bars on 5th avenue, patrons at UH find themselves on the sidewalk on a residential street, not a commercially zoned avenue.
While there has always been a great deal of traffic on Union Street, long before UH arrived, the noise volume LATE INTO THE NIGHT has increased exponentially on the street with the arrival of UH. Those who minimize this fact are unfortunately misinformed.
This fact should put the onus on the bar's owners to take extra care that they treat the neighborhood with respect-- they were already pushing it by opening where they did.
Remember, this establishment is not an ice-cream parlor selling sweets to children-- they sell alcohol, they stay open until 4 in the morning 7 nights a week, and they are a draw for many, many people throughout the city because they have become a known music venue. The idea that they don't have a responsibility to manage their patrons isn't just bad civics-- it's bad business.
As for the many posts deriding the idea that neighbors might hear music from the bar-- the upper hall, or the basement space-- simply because music from the downstairs area can't be heard in the upper hall, one might suspect that UH may have made a greater effort soundproofing their own upstairs area than actually ensuring that the sound transfer to abutting apartments was eliminated.
It would be interesting to know how professionally they chose to handle this aspect of their business, or if they skimped on the job in their rush to open.
There's an old saying "good fences make good neighbors" and it's true as ever in this case.
Lastly, though it saddens me to say this as I am loath to pass judgment on anyone-- seeing the derision and poor taste evident in so many of these posts-- if these are the kinds of people supporting and patronizing UH, is it any wonder the residents are upset?

Posted by: guest at October 16, 2007 1:58 PM

How bad is it? Give us a typical night or week and the variety of disturbances, I just can't imagine it. I have been to UH and walked past.

Posted by: guest at October 16, 2007 2:13 PM

Here's a comment. Why don"t we worry about how frogs are being found in our food at the Food Coop and leave Union Hall alone. Those guys try hard to make everyone that comes in feel comfortable and safe. I like the bouncers especially. I know I am safe when they are lurking about. I've sat at the bar and noticed how they greet folks and how they say good night. Come on, what place do you know has this?

Posted by: guest at January 26, 2008 1:50 PM

I'm not a drinker.

Posted by: guest at February 7, 2008 11:07 AM

One thing becomes clear the more you read this thread: Locals dislike the noise made by patrons (they assume are)from UH outside the establishment, largely because of the time of night.

DISCLAIMER: I am a bar owner (not UH - never been), Evening worker, and Brooklyn native.

I hope none of the petition signers friends, loved ones or children ever try to open a business of their own where more than 5 people congregate or where they do so past 5pm lest they incur the wrath of the neighborhood they do so in.

I equally hope that they all consider the noise they make during the morning while the significant portion of 2nd and 3rd shift working class citizens such as myself are trying to sleep.

If not, I forgive them. You see I used to live across froma middle school and now amount of people enjoying themselves (regardless of how many times it wakes me) has ever upset me. Maybe because I (as a New Yorker) am used to trains, ambulances, police and fire departments, people that keep different hours than me, and finally, the idea that restaurants and bars will always be near residential areas (I don't know where they think they will go - upstate?).

Perhaps they should be thankful that the bar is walking distance and that people are waiting for cabs rather than driving drunk.

Finally, again as a bar owner/employee we can and do enforce rules about behavior. Outside the bar there is very little we can do to police a patron who chooses to stand or walk noisily anywhere but immediately outside our venue. That is the job of the real police and the fault of the noisemaker alone (and perhaps his/her parents).

To the patrons: please be respectful of the neighbors.

To the neighbors: I hope you learn to live with the sounds. If not, the meteoric rise of property value in your neighborhood will likely allow you to sell and buy on a block not zoned for MIXED USE. if you can't find one of those, post here and I can suggest several from Fort Greene to Sheepshead Bay.

Posted by: guest at February 7, 2008 5:48 PM

I'm not sure if anyone realizes this, but these neighbors whose houses have increased in value because of places like Union Hall, are trying to close Union Hall by harassing the police with their calls and complaints. I know from a friend that works at Union Hall that the police have come in several times trying to catch someone doing something wrong to have an excuse to fine them and possibly shut them down. It's gotten to the point where the staff is walking on egg shells, carding people in their 50s, kicking people out who are only buzzed and not drunk, etc.
As a regular customer, I would hate to see Union Hall close because of self-righteous people who want to live like they were on the suburbs. Move there! and leave us city people alone!!

Posted by: guest at February 22, 2008 2:44 PM

Longtime Union Streeter here. Been btw. 5th & 6th since 1990. I'm approx. 40 paces away from UH. I don't have a problem with the music venue part of UH. Great place, albeit a bit small and uncomfortable when packed. But it's really nice overall, and I have zero complaints about it.

As far as the main bar is concerned: No one can control who decides to patron the place. I've been inside tons of times since it's opened, and the majority of people in the bar area are your typical 26-35 bland crowd. Whether one wants to call them "hipsters" or "bridge-and-tunnel crowd" or "yuppies" or whatever, that part doesn't really matter. We see what we wanna see when we look at clothes+age.

What does matter is this, and I mean this for all over the world: People stay out late, they get drunk, they get loud, and they don't give a shit whether they're on a primarily residential block or outside their parents' house in suburbia. Boorish behavior knows no age.

I personally don't blame UH for the rudeness of such people. Is it every night? No. Is it worse May to September? A little bit. Have I been annoyed sometimes? Maybe ten or fifteen times since they've opened. (Not a terrible average.) A few times a group of drunks congregated on my stoop past 3 a.m., and each time I opened my window to ask them to move along, each time they said the usual, "Fuck you!" "Call the cops, we don't fuckin' care!" The usual shit you expect from uncaring people. Did I call the cops? No. Did they move on soon thereafter? With the exception of one time, yes.

My point being: If you want to "blame" anyone for the noise, blame A) whoever in our local government approved a bar there, and B) the actual assholes who drink too much and don't give a shit about shouting and yelling at 3 a.m. on a primarily residential street. It's not Union Hall's fault.

And one last thing: When Frost wrote the line "Good fences make good neighbors," he didn't mean it in a positive way. The fact is, this whole UH kerfuffle is just another teardrop-sized example in an ocean filled with them of how there are too many people in this world who don't care to be considerate of others.

Posted by: guest at April 28, 2008 12:35 AM