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October 5, 2007
Condo of the Day: 118 State Street
A prospective buyer has a post on the Forum about whether prices at 118 State Street, a 150-year-old carriage house that's been converted into four condos, are too high, even for the Heights:
The renovation work looks pretty nice, and it is a prime block, but does anyone on this forum other than Corcoran brokers think that over $1200/sq ft is going to sell in BROOKLYN? I think this is absolutely absurd since we've seen pretty nice 2 bedrooms for under $1 million in this neighborhood, but maybe I'm wrong.
As it turns out, one of the units has already gone into contract, according to Corcoran's listings page, but at least one person who responded to the post agreed that 118 State's prices may be a bit nosebleed: "I wouldn't pay that... for 3 million you can buy a very nice brownstone in PS." Then again, you don't find many brownstones with 25-by-90-foot floorplates in this great a location either. (Disclaimer: This property was advertised on Brownstoner briefly last spring.)
118 State Street [Forum]
The Carriage House [Brennan Real Estate]
118 State Listings [Corcoran]
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Comments
I believe there are multiple properties in Brooklyn going for 1200 psf. Namely One Brooklyn Bridge Park and On Prospect Park.
I'm sure there are others.
Posted by: guest at October 5, 2007 11:47 AM
I think these will sell. There aren't enough nice fanily-sized apartmens in the Heights.
Posted by: guest at October 5, 2007 11:49 AM
$2.5 for an impressive place in BH, while perhaps insane, is well in line with the general insanity that has led to $1.7 asking price for a crapshack in Crown Heights, or $1.3 for a basement condo.
Posted by: guest at October 5, 2007 11:50 AM
I'm confused though. How did they get 4 units in this space?
It only looks like 3 floors including the garage level....?
Posted by: guest at October 5, 2007 11:51 AM
There's a fourth floor that's set back, I believe.
Posted by: guest at October 5, 2007 11:52 AM
Look at the floor plan -- the measurements do not make sense. The combined width of the bedrooms exceeds that of the living/dining --yet it looks like a rectangle.
Posted by: guest at October 5, 2007 11:55 AM
$3 million for an apartment in a carriage house? WTF?
Posted by: guest at October 5, 2007 12:10 PM
I agree with whoever wrote that this is in line wih the general insanity overtaking brownstone Brooklyn. Although some posters feel that location no longer matters, I disagree. Brooklyn Heights is still the gold standard, regardless of how snoozy or boring some may think it is. Nany folks really value boring and staid.
This very large carriage house was owned for many years by the famous skyscraper architect Eli Attia. It reminded me of the New Yorker cartoon of the glassbox architect working on some mega project from his Victorian parlor in a quaint house.
Posted by: sam at October 5, 2007 12:22 PM
These will sell and sell they will to people with some serious bread.
In fact, one has already sold.
Posted by: guest at October 5, 2007 12:24 PM
118 State had an open house last weekend and I stopped in. I looked at the basement/street level 3 BR duplex and the second floor 2 bedroom floor-thru. The 3rd floor is a carbon copy of the 2nd, we were told, so I didn't look at that. We didn't look at the top level duplex either as it was in contract "for the asking price" (2.84 mil) the Realtor was quick to point out, as if defending the price.
Especially after seeing the places, I have to say the price is UNreasonable (even considering the neighborhood).
Though the website touts "custom hardwood" cabinets in the bathrooms and kitchen, it is actually veneer and you can tell because it is buckled and crackled in places. A handout we were given at the open house does mention the cabinets have veneer (guess the website needs updating--or am I wrong in assuming "hardwood" implies not veneer? Not sure.) and says something about them being eco-friendly, which to my mind is not an excuse to be bad quality (eg, buckled). There are plenty of good-quality eco products.
A minor thing, but I think something that is telling as to their attention to detail: the bathroom cabinets in the bottom duplex were hung crooked! "Hand-crafted home" indeed! There are some nice appliances. I drooled over the stove. The den had pocket doors that met at an angle (see floorplan on their website), which was cool.
But I would think for this price there would be more truly custom detail, for instance custom windows to fit the arched openings in the front of the building (rather than the rectangular windows awkwardly stuck in, with a black metal apron going from the top of the pain to fill the arch). Now there are black-painted (and poorly painted, btw) PLYwood doors covering the garbage area at the front of the building. THis is topped with a black steel pallet that looks very industrial and not at all in character of a "Carriage House," which is what they are calling the building with a capital "The." There are pre-existing cement blocks on either side of the steps to the front door and an ugly also industrial-looking stair railing that could have been torn down and replaced with soemthing that wasn't an eyesore. I was surprised when they didn't replace that (I live on the block and have been watching the progress).
Sadly, overall, I think the building was a big, overpriced disappointment.
Posted by: guest at October 5, 2007 12:24 PM
Yet another half assed renovation of a beautiful building, catering to folks with more money than sense. And who cares about the appliances. Boring!
Posted by: guest at October 5, 2007 12:31 PM
The work on the exterior is certainly awful. The building looks terrible. Unfortunately, I have noticed when a developer has a site in a prestiguous location, they know it will sell no matter how ugly the reno is. That is a shame. But I guess it is the reality in our overpopulated and overwealthy corner of the planet.
Posted by: sam at October 5, 2007 12:36 PM
wow...lots of people woke up on the wrong side of the litter box today...
is anyone who reads brownstoner not a bitter soul??
Posted by: guest at October 5, 2007 12:40 PM
Rip-off. Total.
Posted by: guest at October 5, 2007 12:41 PM
Don't worry Gail--no need to keep posting on this thread. There are poor suckers with dough in NYC, so these will eventually sell.
Posted by: guest at October 5, 2007 12:43 PM
I just want to say for the record that there is a big difference between being critical about certain aspects of a project and being a "hater".
I am under no obligation to love every project or agree with the sale price of every property featured here.
Posted by: sam at October 5, 2007 12:52 PM
I think Gail has better things to do with her time.
You sound like just a poor sucker. Period.
Posted by: guest at October 5, 2007 12:54 PM
Disappointing. Rather than be inspired by its previous incarnation as a modernist take on a historic carriage house al la Attia, nor try for a truly historic restoration with details to match - the developers aimed for the mediocre middle and hit a bullseye. Won't be surprised when the person in contract sees the piece of garbage that looked so good in renderings and backs out.
Posted by: guest at October 5, 2007 12:59 PM
Sounds like someone hit a nerve...hmmm.
Posted by: guest at October 5, 2007 1:03 PM
why do people care so much about stoves...when most people can't cook for their lives
Posted by: guest at October 5, 2007 1:06 PM
i cook every night.
speak for yourself.
cooking is making a huge comeback. take a gander at food network sometime...
Posted by: guest at October 5, 2007 1:10 PM
The best cooks I know have the worst kitchens.
Posted by: sam at October 5, 2007 1:31 PM
1:10 i bet your cooking SUCKS
Posted by: guest at October 5, 2007 1:35 PM
I'm continually amazed at the posts on Brownstoner by people who say about new construction/flip renovation, "The design/construction is horrible given the price." Don't you realize the price reflects the developer's/renovator's profit margin, NOT the design or construction costs? If you want a higher level of design and construction, you have to manage it yourself and not pay someone to do it for you. The more you do yourself, the more you get for the same cost. You can take this argument right down the line - be your own GC and you can cut your construction costs by a fraction and spend even more on the design and materials. And it applies at all price points: those yahoos buying $10MM condos in Manhattan are still getting the same crappy construction (relatively speaking), just fancier addresses, views and neighbors. The truly mega-rich still need to hire their own architects and builders to do a really great job, and not rely on a developer to do it for them at a mark-up.
Posted by: guest at October 5, 2007 1:35 PM
project much 1:35??
Posted by: guest at October 5, 2007 1:39 PM
$1200/sf gets you stock aluminum replacement windows and panning for the arched masonry opening? Really?
Posted by: guest at October 5, 2007 1:46 PM
I wouldn't pay these simply for the smell. These are very close, if not right behind the Chip Shop on Atlantic. Some nights you can smell the Chip Shop right as you walk by this carriage house. Trust me, my husband comments on it everytime.
Posted by: guest at October 5, 2007 2:06 PM
I am curious about the top floor, which looks like it is only a half floor with a wall of windows, a la the apartment in "Friends." Can someone explain? I checked all the floorplans and didn't see one that showed this.
Posted by: guest at October 5, 2007 2:17 PM
I went to the open house this weekend and "The" Carriage House was amazing. Out of my price range. But, my boyfriend and I were impressed with the details like the windows in the living rooms are huge. If I had the money I'd buy one..
Posted by: guest at October 5, 2007 2:17 PM
the total asking price of all four units is nearly $10 million. even with a condo-ization premium, that's completely batty.
Posted by: z at October 5, 2007 2:25 PM
He bought it for 4 1/2 a 3-4 years ago. He offered it up for about 6MM a year or two ago. Probably cost him 1MM in reno costs (or less)+ architect fees and carrying costs for 4+ years. So he'll clear 20-30%, but not 100%
Posted by: guest at October 5, 2007 3:33 PM
bought a 2000 sq ft apt for $950k in prime williamsburg last year and put in another 150K for a very similar apt to the duplex - live upstairs and sleep downstairs with 2 garden levels. our price per sq. foot was $550 incl. renovations vs. this at $1200, so there is the neighborhood discrepancy. also, with our changes/decorating/built ins, it seems like our place is far superior.
we'd take williamsburg any day anyway because we love the neighborhood, but from just a price perspective, that is a huge difference. mind you, much of the new stuff entering the market in williamsburg is now at $800 or $1000 per sq. ft too (especially waterfront), so think that's the price range where all the gentried neighborhoods are going.
Posted by: guest at October 5, 2007 3:55 PM
3:33 - 3mm reno hard costs.
Posted by: guest at October 5, 2007 3:55 PM
but you have to live in williamsburg...
Posted by: guest at October 5, 2007 4:19 PM
I live around the corner and have been watching this one too. A huge amount of work has gone into this house - tons of new structural work, some intense insulation (probably to cut down on noise between the units), complete new systems, etc... Easy to believe the "3MM" hard cost estimate from "3:55". The building has been GREATLY improved from the eyesore that it was. Worth 1200/sq/ft.? Of course it is. Has anyone looked at Manhattan prices latley? Like it or not, this is exactly where Brooklyn is headed, at least this part of Brooklyn. The most sought after parts of Brownstone Brooklyn are going to begin to go for 2000/sq.ft within the next 5 years, and everyone will be disbelieving of those prices too! Wake up people, the future is today!
Posted by: guest at October 5, 2007 4:20 PM
Never trust real estate prognostications that end in an exclamation point.
Posted by: guest at October 5, 2007 4:41 PM
What's with the photo in which the scene of sky and trees outside the windows look like the room is on a set?
The building is ugly. I'm sorry...
There's no cornice. Feh! Calling it a "carriage house" just doesn't "do it" for me...doesn't add any luxe-heightening factor...at least for me.
It looks more like a garage building.
How did they get away with window in-fill panels in a landmark district?
...annoying to think that we have always jumped through the hoops (our windows are exact repros to match the the two that remained from the mid-1800s. The two orig. ones were restored). Then bozos slap in windows that are only a vague reference to what was there before. We see this all over in landmarked areas...people do it without permits too...but this will have to be another thread.
Posted by: guest at October 5, 2007 6:03 PM
Thank you 4:41(...!)
Using the $2000/sq.ft. figure, we'll be selling our Fort Greene place for 5.6 in 5 years, maybe a little less because it's Fort Greene...uh'huh...Maybe the 4:20 will offer me that much when the time comes. I'll welcome it...and will then move to Sun City and retire at 47.
Posted by: guest at October 5, 2007 6:07 PM
mmmm......420
Posted by: guest at October 5, 2007 6:25 PM
6:03 Do you know what windows were in place before these ones were installed?
Posted by: guest at October 5, 2007 7:59 PM
Righto, Williamsburg and Brooklyn Heights, that's roughly comparable.
Posted by: guest at October 5, 2007 9:35 PM
Ridiculous-- but I guess it takes all kinds. Me, I'd rather spend $2.8 on 60 St. Marks Place in the Slope, and have myself a 4-story Italianate brownstone packed with original details, and sporting a really nice backyard. And no set monthly charges, condo meetings, or annoying neighbors tromping above you.
Posted by: Rehab at October 6, 2007 11:15 AM
From someone who has sold a lot of houses in the past two years a figure of $2000 per square foot is simply ridiculous. The Manhattan market is being held up by "some" Wall Streeters and the falling value of the dollar. This will probably only be the case for another six months or so. State Street is the fringe of the Heights and is often used as a shortcut for folks who wish to avoid traffic along Atlantic Avenue. Properties which are appropriately priced have accepted offers within a month or so of coming on the market. And so it goes..... Due to lack of current inventory, agents and brokers are taking overpriced listings and then attempting to manage sellers' expectations. This is not the proper way to do business.
Charlie...
Posted by: guest at October 6, 2007 5:55 PM
so as a compteting broker, 5:55 we should listen to your non biased viewpoints as the word of the lord??
no thanks.
Posted by: guest at October 6, 2007 6:15 PM
I think the fact that only one of these is in contract speaks for itself. The others have sat unsold for several months now. Time for a price cut. Anyone who thinks anywhere in Brooklyn will be at $2000 sq/ft any time soon is either a broker with dreams of commissions dancing in her head or a Brooklyn property owner hoping to sell their apartment to fund their retirement.
Posted by: guest at October 7, 2007 6:36 PM
If you are a buyer and are interested in learning why this project is different from what is alternatively available in the market place please do not hesitate to contact me via email. I am the developer. I would more than happy to go over all the construction details and explain why certain decisions were made, including those related to the street facade (which the LPC has a heavy hand in).
Donald Brennan
dbrennan@brennanrealestate.com
For the record - all windows are custom high performance double-glazed insulated Kolbe products, clad exterior (low maintenance and durability) and wood interior. They are not stock aluminium windows as some of the above posts have incorrectly stated.
Posted by: guest at October 8, 2007 11:05 AM
Whatever, Mr. Brennan-- the windows still don't look right. I'm really surprised they would clear LPC.
Posted by: Rehab at October 8, 2007 1:20 PM
Dear Mr. Rehab - Why surprised? What is the extent of your dealings with LPC?
D Brennan
Posted by: guest at October 8, 2007 6:13 PM
I'd live here
Posted by: guest at October 8, 2007 11:48 PM
Mr. Brennan, why did you choose to use laminated cabinets for a luxury property?
Posted by: guest at October 9, 2007 4:12 PM
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