StreetLevel: Atlantic Earns Some Bread

I don't believe there was any indication from any of the articles I read, where exactly in Brooklyn the new Apple Store would be located.

An Apple Store is rumored to land in Brooklyn.

That's all anyone knows.

Unless you have more insider information...?

I personally don't think this is the right location for an Apple Store. Not enough foot traffic.

One Hanson Place makes far more sense to me.

Posted by: guest at September 18, 2007 2:37 PM

So, this Bank of America branch will be maybe a three-minute walk from the branch on Montague. Just what everyone needed. Watch it Brooklyn--you're starting down the same ugly path that stripped Manhattan of all its street cred. The Euro tourists are now coming over the bridge for a reason. Don't give them a reason to turn around and head back.

Posted by: guest at September 18, 2007 2:38 PM

right on, 2:38.

unfortunately the only way to keep brooklyn from becoming another manhattan is to put your money where your mouth is.

you don't want another starbucks in your neighborhood...stop going to starbucks. you don't want another bank of america in your neighborhood. plan your weekly spending and take out money once a week from your own bank's atm.

problem is...and i'm pretty optimistic in general...it's too far gone. people in the u.s. have become far too lazy.

it's a slippery slope and i'm not sure what is going to stop it.

i was beraded on another thread for not going to starbucks any longer and supporting ozzie's in park slope.

say what you will about it, but not only do i prefer the coffee and atmosphere at ozzie's but i feel good knowing that the next time another starbucks pops up in the slope (and subsequently puts another out of business) that i had nothing to do with bringing it there.

i guess it's selfish at the same time, but maybe these little things will help. i don't know...

Posted by: guest at September 18, 2007 2:45 PM

cool, thanks 2:57.

i'll be happy about apple coming to brooklyn, period.

Posted by: guest at September 18, 2007 3:01 PM

Hi 2:45. I was on that thread where you got yelled at for liking Ozzie's (I didn't yell at you though). I like Ozzie's too, and Damicos (spelling?) on Court Street, and Court Books, etc. The thing about Starbucks, I think, is that it somehow heralds that a nabe has "arrived." It shows that a place has tipped enough to support the $5 coffee, and if you are in a location where you are waiting for that tip from "up-and-coming" to "arrived," I think you HOPE Starbucks will show up (even if you then complain about it). I'm over in Kensington, and let me tell you, PLENTY of people would LOVE to see a Starbucks opening on Church Ave, because it would mean that they did the right thing when they bought there, that the nabe really was changing. I rent, by the way, so while I have interest in the whole RE situation, I'm on the sidelines for now. It's all a slippery slope, between who has, who wants, who gambled and won, who bet wrong. What I want is a cleaner kensington -- less tagging, less litter, more garbage pick-up. Does that come with Starbucks? Does it start with Starbucks? I never thought so before, but now I think that just might be the price we pay.

Posted by: guest at September 18, 2007 3:07 PM

I guess then Parkchester (in the Bronx) has arrived - since it has a very successful Starbucks location

Posted by: guest at September 18, 2007 3:30 PM

I suppose you're right, 3:14, but the thing is...in New York City especially...a lot of people put a lot of blood sweat and tears into helping out a troubled neighborhood and bringing it back to life.

Some people don't want to just up and move after all those years working at something and investing in a place that no one else cared about.

At this point, I could imagine living in Park Slope till the day I die. That's how much I like it. While I'm fine to accept changes as they come, there are certain changes that become more bothersome than others.

I guess that's the way of the world, though.

Posted by: guest at September 18, 2007 3:36 PM

And btw if it takes you 3min to get to the Bank of America on Montague from this corner - I promise you one thing - your RUNNING - its close to 1/2 a mile.

Posted by: guest at September 18, 2007 3:36 PM

On the coffee topic - 'chains' don't put "mon&pop" shops out of buisness - quality does - a store like Ozzies is vulnerable to Starbucks for the simple fact that they have $hit coffee, and bad service. I guarantee that as long as D'amico keeps up the quality they now have, Starbucks would have little to no effect on there business.

Posted by: guest at September 18, 2007 3:43 PM

People have different taste buds, 3:43.

I don't think there's a worse tasting coffee out there, than Starbucks.

I'd take Ozzie's, Dunkin D, Gorilla or the golden arches over Starbucks if taste were the only factor.

And then there's the price, which is absurd.

Posted by: guest at September 18, 2007 3:52 PM

Both Ozzie's are always busy.

So clearly 3:52 is not the only person who enjoys the coffee there.

Posted by: guest at September 18, 2007 3:58 PM

3:36...you're either kidding or 90 years old. It's like 5 downtown Brooklyn blocks, maybe six. What's that, 5 minutes, 6 at an amble? How inconvenient! Granted, I've seen perfectly healthy people in Downtown Brooklyn take the bus for distances that short...
Lower Montague is a veritable sea of banks and drugstores--I'm hoping that Court street (or Smith) doesn't become like that.

Posted by: guest at September 18, 2007 3:58 PM

Actually its 4/10's of a mile - about 7minutes at a good pace (with no lights)
But this is one of those arguments that for some reason people dont understand and instead love to complain that there are so many ______ here - when in reality (in a pedestrian enviroment - 'here' takes on a different meaning.

It isnt just the distance between two locations - its the number of people who live (and work) 'past' each location.

If you live in upper Brooklyn Heights and happen to bank at BoA then frankly a bank at Court and Atlantic is totally not convenient even if the distance between them is 4/10 of a mile) it would probably bee close to 1.5 mi round trip from many places in upper Brooklyn Heights. - Same argument applies if you work at Federal Court on Cadman Plaza for ex.

Conversely if you live a few blocks into Cobble Hill - BoA Branch on Montague St can be a hike.

Most people work 7-10hrs a day and really dont have time to walk 3mi doing errands in the evening, so for most people convenient is 5 blocks from their house or work or otherwise on the way home from the subway. Everything else is saved for the weekend.

Personally except for an ATM machine withdrawl (which you dont need the bank for) I have no idea why people go to brances at all - but I see that if you do - these two branches are serving different constituents.

Posted by: guest at September 18, 2007 4:21 PM

FWIW, I think (hope) Montague and Court St. north of Atlantic has all the chains and the banks because of the foot traffic from the courts, dept of education, and all the subways etc; I dont think Court south of Atlantic for the most part is dense enough to really interest the chains (more than already, Starbucks here and there and few bank branches).

Posted by: guest at September 18, 2007 4:30 PM

4:30- also the lot sizes have a lot to do with chain stores ability to compete- they need bigger floor plates than the typical brownstone floor plate which is the standard south of Atlantic. Econ of scale and all that.

Posted by: guest at September 18, 2007 4:37 PM

I walk to Brooklyn heights, take out my money on Montague, then walk down Court Street to spend it. Once Fish Tales, the green grocer or beer distributor and all the other the quirky shops that make Court Street worth the trip become bank branches, then there will be no reason to make the extra effort. But the residents will be happy because they will have a choice of 10 bank branches from which to draw their money and a choice of four national chain drugstores in which to spend it--all without that pesky 4/10 of a mile schlep.

Posted by: guest at September 18, 2007 4:38 PM

3.43 - while I agree with the concept you are noting, Starbuck's business model is actually a bit more insidious than that. They actively scout out areas with a few coffee shops then set up shop, often more than one, with the intention of flooding the area with their presence. Once the competition closes, they generally consolidate to just one Starbucks in that area.

Posted by: guest at September 18, 2007 4:49 PM

All said, good luck--Adam's Fresh--We hope you're a good addition to the neighborhood. Build a better cupcake, and the world will beat a path to your door. Actually, they will beat a path to the ATM at BOA and then to your door. Better cupcakes always cost mucho dinero!

Posted by: guest at September 18, 2007 4:50 PM

exactly, 4:49.

they did that on the upper west side. they opened a bunch, then closed two of them.

not only that, but they pay above and beyond what the market rate rents are, just to make sure they can get a foothold into their particular neighborhood of choice.

it sucks.

it's business and it's capitalism, but this part of it sucks.

Posted by: guest at September 18, 2007 5:07 PM

4:49 - I really don't buy that as there buisness model and I am assuming you have no proof other then your own observation or perception -

so using my perception - the vast majority of Starbucks that I see dont fall into that model at all - in Manhattan in the biz districts (which I see more then res areas) it seems that there strategy is/was to just be everywhere so that working people have no choice but to get their fix from them - Far from putting 'cofee shops' out of business it seems like they are hurting the coffee carts, old time office lobby purveors and the local deli biz - since most of these areas never had 'coffee shops' in the Starbucks vein anyway.

And in Brooklyn the locations that I see - Court(2x), Smith, 7th Ave and Montague are all in spots that had no or few long standing coffee shops. In fact the only store that I recall going out of buisness after Starbucks opened might have been the Montague St Ozzies (not even sure about the timing here) - which had lousy coffee and an upstairs location was was struggling after only a few years - before that there werent any coffee shops on Montague.

So not sure where you come up with Starbucks biz model that you cite.

Posted by: guest at September 18, 2007 5:08 PM

Let me add that actually Starbucks tends not to "overpay" - for rent. They will pay the high end of the market but demand incredible concessions from LL. Including LL pay fix-up costs, 50,000 loans, no annual increases and clauses that let them out easily - all of which make the gross sq ft rent - not so wonderful (of course if they stay, they will pay so many LL want them).

People want to make attribute everything to chain stores success except that they are actually giving good products and/or service - I guess b/c that would expose alot of Mom&Pops for what many are - Lazy, unfriendly and generally lousy.

BTW - I get my coffee (espresso) at Cafe Regular (12th St)

Posted by: guest at September 18, 2007 5:14 PM

i was gay-bashed at a starbucks once.

Posted by: guest at September 18, 2007 5:18 PM

4:49, wow, your grammar and spelling gives me a headache. Coffee carts and lobby shops are not even applicable in this neighborhood. It was said earlier, and I agree, that if you don't like Starbucks, don't support them. Don't support them, and they can't pay rent. I think the coffee is too strong, and too expensive. I don't like how they saturate any neighborhood. And since I like complaining about them, I don't go.

And just to throw in my 2-cents, I moved to the Cobble Hill, Boerum Hill, Brooklyn Heights neighborhood 4 years ago. I love the area. Apparently I'm not alone. But I don't think it's the new residents that's making it crappier. We all came because it's a beautiful neighborhood. I think it's the developers who are drowning the area with boring architecture and the greedy LANDLORDS who are pushing out the smaller shops that attracted us in the first place. (Who ever thinks, "Great! There are 4 Starbucks in the neighborhood! I'm moving in!!") If I wanted to shop at Lucky Brand, I'd do it online. I have to walk to either 1st Place or Montague to go to my ATM, but I'm not begging Citibank to open a branch that's closer. I'll just get money in the city. Basically, I blame the developers and landlords for turning my simple neighborhood into another chain mall. I didn't ask for Starbucks, Urban Outfitters, or 40 different banks to open on my corner. They came to me. So if the little falafel restaurant is pissed off that I moved in and brought my Chase banks with me, and priced him out, I'll just have to tell him that I'm pissed off too. I moved there for his damn falafel.

Posted by: guest at September 18, 2007 6:39 PM

Wow.. two BoAs almost as close as the two WaMus in the area.. one on Smith near Baltic, and Court and.. Livingston (i think). It's nice to have options, and definitely two different neighborhoods. It'll be pretty ugly to have both BoA and Sovereign on the intersection though.

Regarding Starbucks.. personally I like the taste of their coffee generally, and I find them to be almost always pleasant. I try to support the organic small guys sometimes, and enjoyed my Naidre's cup today (after waiting 5 minutes for the girl to stop shmoozing before taking my order).

But I'm officially done with the Tea Lounge. The Cobble Hill location is OK, fairly nonchalant workers, bordering on bored. But the Union St. Park Slope store has never been a positive experience, where the guys are either stoned or rude. And their coffee is more expensive than starbucks, and they don't take cards for less than $12 (a nice surprise after i got my order and had no cash). If I wanted to sit around on their dirty couches watching breastfeeding, I can see paying that much but usually i'm in and out.

Posted by: guest at September 18, 2007 7:02 PM

6:39 your rant is so stereotypically entitled-NIMBY it borders on parody.

Posted by: guest at September 18, 2007 7:15 PM

I completely, 100% agree with 6:39.

Posted by: guest at September 18, 2007 7:37 PM

And I completely, 100% agree with 7:15.

Posted by: guest at September 18, 2007 8:06 PM

guest@2:38pm: Personally, I would love it if Brooklyn became more like Manhattan. Mostly because I can't afford to live in Manhattan for my life, and to have the functional equivalent in a *slightly* cheaper neighborhood like Brooklyn Heights would be nice.

I would like to note how amazing it is to hear about all of this development coming to what was essentially barren space last year around this time. Between the Trader Joe's, the Urban Outfitters, and now this spiffy sounding bakery, I can expect a little more life to come to this lovely but boring part of the neighborhood. I'm psyched. And it's not just cuz I live a block away either $

Posted by: guest at September 18, 2007 8:15 PM

Landlords give those concessions because Starbucks is a relatively safe tenant. Just like with any other investments, people accept lower returns for lower risk.

Posted by: guest at September 19, 2007 9:50 AM

9:50 - exactly LL GIVE concessions for a Starbucks; its not as if Starbucks is coming in and just throws so much $ around that no one else can compete as everyone likes to imply.

As for 6:39PM - you can "blame" anyone you want but blaming developers (what major development has taken place in BHts, Boreum Hill or Cobble Hill??) and Landlords is just as dumb as someone blaming you for moving to Brooklyn. Change is a fact of life in any successful society.

But I am curious (and would appreciate a serious and direct answer) - how much would it be acceptable for a LL to charge so as to avoid you calling him/her "Greedy" and by what method/criteria should they rent their stores so as to be acceptable to you

Posted by: guest at September 19, 2007 10:32 AM

major development: The Court House (Court and Atlantic), new hotel/condo (Boerum Pl and Atlantic, new condo on Schermerhorn between Boerum Pl and Court, new buildings on Schermerhorn between Boerum Pl. and Bond, 2 empty lots on Atlantic and Boerum Pl, new condo on Atlantic between Court and Clinton. Do you need more examples, 10:32?

As far as accusing someone of crying "NIMBY", why shouldn't you be disappointed when the shops and atmosphere you bought into is priced out by dunkin donuts and lucky brand jeans? I didn't move into one of those vapid new buildings. I bought into a building that has been there since the early 1900s. I don't know how much landlords should charge, but i don't know why the people who move into "best-kept secret" neighborhoods get blamed for displacing locals. I don't raise the rent. landlords do.

Posted by: guest at September 19, 2007 2:45 PM

Your complaining about development on parcels that were essentially VACANT or were parking lots/garages for decades! Virtually no businesses were displaced by the developments you cite and frankly the neighborhood East of Court and North of Atlantic is (at best) the fringe of Boreum Hill - so again I have to ask what "developers" are ruining your "simple neighborhood"

I also find it amusing how easily you call LL greedy, yet seem to find it difficult to come up with some guideline for pricing or renting stores that would satisfy you.

And let me be clear - I am not criticizing you for moving here, in fact the opposite. However, what I am criticizing you for is taking advantage of your free-choice for change but then expecting everything else and everyone else to stay the way they are to SATISFY YOU.

Posted by: guest at September 19, 2007 4:36 PM

hmmm. wonder if you're a greedy landlord, 4:36...

Posted by: guest at September 19, 2007 5:32 PM

Not a LL but if charging the fair market value for my services or assets makes me greedy then I guess I am...

Posted by: guest at September 19, 2007 5:37 PM

All this cursing is so rude and unnecessary!!

Going back to the issue of the bank,It's great that there can be 2 B of A's in Brooklyn Heights but I want to know how come we can't get a bank, any bank to open up in Clinton Hill, somewhere along Fulton St., between Vanderbilt and Grand Avenue!!

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 6:07 AM

Hello to all you New Yorkers! My name is Mike and I am writing you from Southern California. Why is some guy writing on this site from Southern California? The answer is simple and sincere. Adam of Adam's Fresh Bakery has been a close personal friend of mine for 27 years give or take. Not only will you find the best of baked goods, he will also cater your events like no one else could ever imagine. The best of what Adam's Fresh has to offer is that everything is just that, "FRESH!" When you stop by the bakery, keep in mind that you are supporting local business. There is nothing better than supporting your local businesses that can deliver a much higher caliber of product.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 7:46 PM