Open House Picks

The Dean St. place will be worthless after AY is built.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 1:20 PM

The Bainbridge House is absolutely beautiful I think It will go for 1.1 mil

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 1:25 PM

How far is the Bainbridge house from AY?

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 1:29 PM

1:20, break it down for me. why will dean street be worthless after AY. it's fairly close--wouldn't that raise its value?

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 1:32 PM

Eyesores don't usually boost property values. Just ask anyone who's ever had a methodone clinic move into their nabe.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 1:35 PM

It's close enough. Whoever buys it is going to lose his/her shirt.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 1:36 PM

man, who decorated that house on Bergen, Judy Jetson? awful.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 1:39 PM

"The Bainbridge House is absolutely beautiful I think It will go for 1.1 mil"

It's a flip gone bad!

The owner has been there for years, so that would make it a ffffffllllllllliiiiiiiiiippppppppppppp.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 1:40 PM

man, who decorated that house on Bergen, Judy Jetson? awful.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 1:39 PM

I'm leaning more toward Astro.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 1:41 PM

"Eyesores don't usually boost property values"

Last I checked, I haven't seen more of an eyesore than AY in it's current incarnation.

You may not like luxury highrises or tall buildings built by one of the leading architects of our generation, but eyesores they are usually not.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 1:43 PM

1:36

Ok, but again, why? Why is AY going to affect something on Dean and Nodstrand? I don't get the logic...

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 1:45 PM

What are you smoking 1:43, and what street corner did you buy it on?

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 1:48 PM

Dean between Nostrand and New York Ave is one of the most beautiful blocks in Brooklyn. No kidding -- go look. Really, really beautiful houses.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 1:50 PM

119 Bainbridge was listed a couple of weeks ago as an "Open House Pick" but the price was $987,000.00. What happen? Did values go up in a de-escalating BedStuy. 313k is quite the price increase...

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 1:53 PM

119 Bainbridge was listed a couple of weeks ago as an "Open House Pick" but the price was $987,000.00. What happen? Did values go up in a de-escalating BedStuy. 313k is quite the price increase...

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 1:54 PM

Most beautiful in all of Brooklyn? Hardly.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 1:56 PM

Bainbridge was listed with another broker two weeks ago at 987k. I went and looked at it, and while it was beautiful I thought it needed a good amount of work (electrical, boiler, some serious foundation work, plumbing) but would be worth it to someone willing to put in a couple of hundred K in work. It's a huge house with some gorgeous details on an amazing block. The broker said they would take an offer at ask. I passed, not interested in the work involved. Someone at brooklyn properties must have poached the listing from the local bed-stuy broker, and convinced the owner it was worth 300K more. I'd be quite surprised if they got that. Under a million is worth it tho, if you are willing to put in the work.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 2:11 PM

Is it really one of the most beautiful blocks, or does it just seem that way because it's surrounded by horrific ones?

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 2:11 PM

I'm sure there are lots of great people in Crown Heights. I never suggested otherwise.

But if I wanted to raise my familiy in a neighborhood with crime like Crown Heights I'd move to South Philly and spend 1/5th the price and buy a beach house.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 2:25 PM

No one in their right mind wants to live in Crown Heights. Get a grip.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 2:27 PM

That part of Dean street is indeed beautiful. But as soon as you turn the corner at Nostrand, Man, Watch OUT. That is one of the "HOTTEST" blocks in brooklyn... And I don't mean Hot like COOL. I'm mean hot like "Damn, what happened??"

Also, it's a good 30 minute walk, 7 minute car ride to AY. So no where near that project. So AY will only have a favorable effect, if any at all, on the value.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 2:31 PM

Nothing and nowhere in Brooklyn is even close to being like South Philly. Not even East New York or Brownsville is as bad as that. All of NYC is better economically than urban Philadephia and everybody with half a brain or knowledge of the world outside knows it. As usual, completely uninformed morons posting nonsense on Brownstoner. No valuable information here whatsoever.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 2:34 PM

The interior decoration on the Bergen St. house may be bad, but the house looks lovely and the location is fantastic!

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 2:42 PM

I don't agree that you'd have to be an idiot to want to live in Crown Heights, but I do believe that you'd have to be one helluva risk taker to be buying in Crown Heights and Bed Stuy at any of the prices listed above.

You all are in for a really sad wake up call in a couple years, I'm afraid.

Crown Heights and Bed Stuy are nice places to live if you are paying 500-600K for a home.

A million dollars or anywhere close to it is beyond absurd.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 2:53 PM

99 St. Marks Place will be worthless once AY is built.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 2:59 PM

You people need to consider what A MILLION DOLLARS IS.

Say it out loud. A MILLION DOLLARS.

Take a walk around Crown Heights or Bed Stuy with an objective view and tell me if you think that buying A home in that neighborhood is worth a MILLION DOLLARS.

While a block or two here and there are lovely and yes...Stuy Heights is lovely, the neighborhood is worth nowhere near that amount yet. Maybe in 5 or 10 years, but certainly not now.

Next thing you'll tell me is that Brownsville homes are also worth 1 million dollars because it's in NEW YORK CITY!!!

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 3:09 PM

2:34 - I am not sure why I am letting your ridiculous rant bait me into responding but... As someone who has actually been to philly, I have to call your bluff. Are you kidding? Everywhere in NYC is nicer than anywhere in Philly? You are NUTS. I live in brooklyn now but spent years living happily in Philadelphia.

I am not sure why stoner-commenters feel the need to bash on Philly but it occurs regularly enough to irritate since the bashing is uniformly uninformed and inane. Philly is a different, smaller, more affordable city with lots to offer. Just like NYC it has sketchy neighborhoods and gentrified stroller-derby neighborhoods. Neighborhoods that were once written off are now booming (would that I have bought that home in Graduate Hospital before its price skyrocketed).

So enough with the Philly bashing already. It is an underrated gem of a city. Anyone who tells you 'all nyc neighborhoods are better' is smoking something.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 3:12 PM

Likewise, I'm sure, 3:14.

You hate anonymous comments on a real estate blog?

Sounds like you hate yourself, then.

Yikes.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 3:16 PM

He said 'you people', not 'you comments', moron.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 3:18 PM

Wonder why 99 St. Marks is so cheap? I'm gonna hit the open house to see what's wrong with it...

What's the potential rental income on it? Say the "2br" floor-thrus are really 1.5br... maybe 2k/mo. each? $3500/mo. for the duplex if you wanted to live in a smaller apt and make more rent...?

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 3:30 PM

Get a load of this everyone, it's talking to itself again (3:26 and 3:30).

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 3:37 PM

The broker says "$98,000 Income" for 99 St. Marks, which would mean $8,166.67 monthly, or something like 2k/mo. x 2 + $4k for the duplex. Probably "projected" or "potential" rents knowing how brokers work.

But the place will be worthless after AY is built.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 3:39 PM

The regular posters on this board are absolute scum. I'm sure a fair number of the occasional posters and one shot wonders also leave much to be desired, but the little coterie regulars at this site are all a bunch of subhuman filth.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 3:42 PM

Montrose:

I'm not the earlier idiot guest, honest. But I gotta challenge this:

"I must emphatically say that I think a buy in either neighborhood is an excellent investment. People continuously want to live in a brownstone/rowhouse. They are going to go where the houses are, and deal with whatever is or isn't in the neighborhood in whatever way works for them. In the long run, or even the near future, there will be no regrets."

Either you're arguing that

(1) Even _in the near future_, all brownstone neighborhoods will be good investments. Or

(2) If the real estate market does decline, Bed Stuy and CH will be fine, whereas only other, more expensive neighborhoods will lose value.

Either way, I don't buy it. (And I own a house.) Unless you mean "investment" in some spiritual, metaphorical sense. Markets go both down and up, and when they go down, the neighborhoods that have appreciated the most and the most recently go down the most.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 3:44 PM

Tell us something we don't already know, 3:42PM. They're a bunch of gentrifyin', stroller pushin', inside tradin', baby makin', Carribean nanny hirin', BMW drivin', brownstone ownin' pieces of shit.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 3:46 PM

"People continuously want to live in a brownstone/rowhouse."

Actually almost no one wanted to live in them 30 years ago.

Why are you so sure?

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 3:46 PM

And what about those damned stroller moms, huh? They've ruined Park Slope.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 3:48 PM

Holy crap...this is shaping up to be the best brownstoner thread in history!!!!

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 3:49 PM

3:42: Don't forget "square glasses wearin'"

lol

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 3:51 PM

3:44...to add to that...the neighborhoods that have seen the most recent and rapid price appreciation with almost ZERO addition to the neighborhood in terms of services and cleanliness, the price declines will be even more severe.

You assume that people are paying these insane prices for simply the bricks and mortar. Granted here in brownstone brooklyn we have some quite lovely bricks and mortar, but New York City is the kinda place where you are paying a significant portion of your home price purchase on the neighborhoods those bricks and mortar lie in.

So while there are gorgeous homes in Clinton Hill, Bed Stuy and Crown Heights, I do not believe people are clamoring to live in those particular neighborhoods for much else than brick and mortar.

And THAT is where people are going to run into trouble.

If the market were to take a turn, crime up even a little, I'd rather live in a shoebox in one of the more established areas of the city rather than a large home in a fringe area where I have to spend my hard earned money on a car service to pick up groceries.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 3:51 PM

Dang, 3:49, you've got seriously low standards.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 3:55 PM

I miss the old days when people bitched about strollers in Park Slope.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 4:05 PM

Yeah, the stroller moms. They all hang out at the "Teat Lounge" on 7th Avenue.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 4:07 PM

119 Banbridge doesn't have a c of o...and it's used as an SRO....where does that leave the buyer, on top of putting 100K or so into it? Lovely pics...lovely block...but why the increase in price? sounds like someone tacked on their commission...987K one week to 1.3M the next two different agencies...mmmm Sure it will sell, but not at that price..

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 4:16 PM

Yeah, the stroller mom thing has been talked to death.

No one gives a shit anymore.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 4:18 PM

"So while there are gorgeous homes in Clinton Hill, Bed Stuy and Crown Heights, I do not believe people are clamoring to live in those particular neighborhoods for much else than brick and mortar."

3:51 - doesn't Mr. Brownstoner live in Clinton Hill? You can't lump already gentrified Clinton Hill with all its multimillion dollar houses together with still sketchy Bed Stuy and Crown Heights on this blog.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 4:18 PM

"I just hope they don't rise too fast, because that's not good on many levels."

Too late.

Did you just fall off the turnip truck?

That's precisely why you are in trouble.

Homes in Crown Heights were 200K in 2000. Now a million. You don't think that's TOO FAST!!!????

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 4:32 PM

Is there a way that those who favor censorship can move to China so that those of us interested in living in a free society can continue happily living in America??

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 4:52 PM

Montrose, you're a funny character. Most people pass wind out of their behinds, but you choose to do it through your mouth.

I suspect you've done a lot of things with that mouth.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 4:54 PM

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 5:00 PM

OMG, That was nuts. I just read all those comments and only 2 people had anything intelligent to say. Bren and Montrose, thank you.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 5:09 PM

Homes in Crown Heights were 200K in 2000

Home in Park Slope were 800K in 2000

200K (2000)is 1 million today in CH
and
800K (2000)is 3 million today in PS
what is the point???

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 5:10 PM

Too bad we can't add you to that list, 5:09.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 5:12 PM

The difference is that since 2000, Park Slope has added world class stores and restaurants by the droves, has great schools and a park. It has added thousands of people who are raising their children there and has created a very tightly knit urban fabric.

Crown Heights has some nice homes.

Oh and fyi...3 times the value in 7 years is different than 5 times the value.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 5:16 PM

Hey 3:12pm, I do not hate Philly. I just said anyone who knows the actual economic stats of NYC knows it's in better shape than Philadelphia. Parts of Philly are so shockingly blighted I could not speak, when I went through these areas recently with a friend. Every single block, no exaggeration, has at least one house boarded up or burned. Some blocks it was every 2nd house.

Philly's city leaders screwed up. Yes, there are pockets of revival in Philly, and in some areas the houses are gorgeous and are more historic than Brooklyn's. But the downtown historic areas were invaded by huge, ugly, crap 80's office buildings because the city didn't bother to do any thoughtful planning, or to landmark and protect enough of the city. It became a place where people worked, but not where they hung out or ate or lived. Philadelphia is an important city for this whole country, with regard to our national history. It's absolutely shameful what happened to it. I really truly do hope they get it together and bounce back.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 5:18 PM

The other difference is that most homes in Park Slope are 2 million, not 3.

The increases there have been much more steady over the years and have gradually appreciated as the neighborhood has become more and more stable.

But keep trying to justify your purchase. No skin off my back.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 5:20 PM

4 story home in PS in 2000 was more like 1.5M, and CH about 350K not 800k, so PS has experienced 100% lift, while CH is more like 200%

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 5:21 PM

Crown Heights is the armpit of Brooklyn. Everyone knows it.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 5:26 PM

4:54, you rule brutha! Get down wit yo bad sef!!

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 5:29 PM

Homes in Crown Heights were 200K in 2000

Home in Park Slope were 800K in 2000

200K (2000)is 1 million today in CH
and
800K (2000)is 3 million today in PS
what is the point???

THANK YOU!

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 5:38 PM

It seems like people are scared or something for CH and BS becoming better than other areas (PS) whats with that? Every areas dose not have to be the same boring clones. If people what to buy in the hood FINE let them buy in the hood. NO one cares if some of you can't relate to people that are different from you.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 5:49 PM

Ok - I purchased a magnificent home in Bed Stuy on a fabulous block for 850k earlier this year - yeah, it was overpriced then and more so now because it needs work (kitchen etc.) and the neighborhood has a way to go in terms of services - but I love the long term prospects! I get the risk - but there are no regrets!

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 5:56 PM

Montrose's posts are a perfect example of what happens in a bubble. He keeps saying that prices can only go up over time, and then insists that he'd put whatever investment money he had into Crown Heights/Bedford Stuyvesant property. This kind of argument is common enough that it's easy to overlook how crazy it is. Think about what he's saying: he's saying buying a piece of property in Crown Heights -- after prices in that neighborhood have already skyrocketed threefold over just a few years -- is a safer and better investment than, say, buying an S&P 500 index fund, which over eighty years has returned a steady 10% a year. And he's doing based on nothing more than the evidence of the past six years -- no one who saw Crown Heights as late as the mid-1990s could plausibly have said a house there was a sure thing. The love affair here with leverage (putting down almost no money and praying that prices will keep going up) and with real estate has gone absurdly far, and there are lots of people who are going to be paying the price over the next decade.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 6:02 PM

So, 5:56, why'd you buy it if you knew it was overpriced? Why not put the money you used for the down payment in the market (or into municipal bonds) and wait until prices got more reasonable? Why give up all the money you're going to waste on interest payments and lost investment income over the next 3-5 years?

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 6:04 PM

5:56 PM I hear you... I just a brought for the same price in Stuyvesant Hts. My kitchen in bathrooms looks like something out of the Brady Bunch but other parts of the house have not been touched in 120 years Thank God. I am so happy living in BS. I thought I would be sad to leave Park Slope which I love but I feel like this area is more like home....

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 6:09 PM

6:02, Montrose is a coward and an idiot. You came to the wrong place to find a serious discussion of real estate.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 6:31 PM

People in Crown Heights and Bed Stuy constantly have to reassure themselves (and the entire brownstoner community) how happy they are with their homes and neighborhood.

interesting....

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 6:35 PM

a million dollars to live in a glorified ghetto.

only in america.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 6:36 PM

Montrose, you may not have thought you were saying that real estate was a better investment than the S&P, but why else would you say if you had "investment income" you would "buy what you could" in Crown Heights? (Presumably using "investment income" means you're not acting out of the goodness of your heart, but because you want to make money on your investment.)

More importantly, your analogy to Park Slope in the 1970s is totally flawed. If Park Slope brownstones had tripled in value between 1972 and 1978, then it would, in fact, have been crazy to buy a Park Slope brownstone in 1978 using "investment income," because you were pretty much guaranteed to make an average return at best. (And before you say, wait, even an "expensive" brownstone in 1978 is worth 10 times that today, remember that an S&P 500 index fund is worth 17 times what it was in 1978.) The reason not to buy in Crown Heights or Bedford Stuyvesant today is that homes there have gotten overpriced because of the recent bubble, and they are going to be less valuable, not more, three years from now. All your talk of the value of the neighborhood, etc., doesn't change the simple fact that there is a reasonable price at which to buy property in Crown Heights and there is an unreasonable one. And a million dollars to live on Dean Street in Crown Heights is unreasonable. End of story.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 7:06 PM

6:04 Because I loved the house! Just had to have it!

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 7:07 PM

Well, 7:07's answer is a totally reasonable one. If you're going to get huge amounts of enjoyment from living in a particular house, then it's worth spending extra to get that house, even if it'll be cheaper three years from now. (Because three years from now you won't be able to buy it.) I just think 7:07's attitude -- essentially, indifference to how valuable the house will or won't be three years from now -- has become increasingly rare on the Brooklyn real estate scene.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 7:17 PM

Does anybody have any perspective here? I do not live in Crown Heights, I'll start by saying. If some people were not risk takers, and loved old houses enough to talk themselves into taking on houses in fringe neighborhoods when everybody was telling them they were crazy to live in the ghetto, NO F*CKING PLACE in Brooklyn would be decent right now. Please note these people didn't do it because they thought they'd make a bundle of dough off the investment. They did it to have a large and beautiful house to live and work in. Because most were artists and bohemians. You know, the very people who make New York City not Kansas.

So, everyone in Park Slope today can thank the pioneers in the 70s and 80s who went ahead and bought houses there, even when everyone else turned up their noses judgementally and told them they were nuts. As a result of their risk taking, Park Slope became a very good NYC neighborhood to live in. If it weren't for those pioneers, the only option would still be Manhattan and today's Park Slopers would only be able to afford a tiny coop apartment for their $2 million.

Of course some people are too darned entitled to thank anybody for anything.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 7:18 PM

I'm with Montrose. People who believe in Brooklyn and invest not only in real estate but in making their neighborhoods better places are going to do just fine in the long run. That means joining the community board, getting involved with public schools, volunteering, having a little civic involvement. Crown Heights has some of the finest victorian architecture in the city. It also has more than its share of social problems, but these are not intractable, and things have been changing for the better for a long time now. !977 is a long time ago. !991 is a long time ago. If you come back to brooklyn in a decade, you will see it vastly improved.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 7:24 PM

monstrose morris = brower park = crown heights proud

Same long-winded style, same "know it all" lecturing posts.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 7:27 PM

"6:04 Because I loved the house! Just had to have it!"

Yes, that's exactly the reason the pioneers of Park Slope bought their houses. They had no reason at all to believe Park Slope would become a fabulous high priced neighborhood. Park Slope was quite literally a ghetto. Don't say it wasn't. I know someone who grew up in Park Slope, who says it was. However, 7:17 is correct, nobody thinks like that anymore in NYC. Nobody will buy a house without thinking about flipping for a profit. Kind of soul-less and boring. Like a community of accountants. Might be a sign it's time to leave the city.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 7:33 PM

The people who bought brownstones in the 1970s in Park Slope are now sitting on homes worth $2 million +. Do they really need us to thank them, too?

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 7:36 PM

Yes, 7:36pm, because even if you rent a small apartment in Park Slope you are living in a neighborhood that has good quality of life, with good amenities, that even as it gets more costly is still far less expensive than Manhattan. Not everyone is cut out to go live in the ghetto and strive to make improvements, make the schools better, bring in amenities if not open the restaurants and stores yourself so the community would have those resources. Could you have done it?

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 7:40 PM

You hit the nail on the head, 7:06.

It isn't that buying in these neighborhoods is a bad idea. It's that buying them at these prices is a bad idea.

The last few posters have functional reading problems and have inferred that people are suggesting that no one move to these areas at all.

That's not the issue. The issue is the exhorbitant prices for these homes in neighborhoods that have literally just begun the gentrification process.

People in Park Slope now pay 2 million dollars...sometimes 3 to live in a nearly perfect urban oasis.

You are paying 1 million dollars to live in what was Park Slope 30 years ago.

Do you see why you might be in trouble?

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 7:40 PM

Also, 7:36 the whole point was to say Park Slopers should appreciate the pioneers in fringe brownstone neighborhoods now, even if they themselves don't "get it" and couldn't be risk-takers themselves. Instead, they are judgemental and nasty towards the very types of people who improved Park Slope so much back in the day. See the irony?

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 7:43 PM

But it's not Park Slope 30 years ago, 7:40. That is a vast huge exaggeration. Ask someone who actually lived in Park Slope 30 years ago. Park Slope was way worse than Bed Stuy or Crown Heights is now. Additionally, the NYC economny in general is better than it was during the time Park Slope was so blighted. So the circumstances NOW (not being the 70's) would indicate there is opportunity for advancement to happen much more quickly. Like the huge amount of focus the Mayor has put on developing Brooklyn. They literally want Brooklyn to be another Manhattan. That kind of thinking was SO not going on in the 70's.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 7:46 PM

I agree that Bed Stuy today (well, most of it) isn't as bad as Park Slope thirty years ago. But let's say it's as bad as Park Slope was twenty years ago -- I think if you look at the crime stats, that's probably close to accurate. No one was paying a million dollars (adjusted for inflation) for Park Slope brownstones twenty years ago. And twenty years ago, coincidentally, Park Slope real estate was on the verge of a tumble that sent prices down 40% in real terms over the next six years. Are you ready to have that Crown Heights townhouse you bought for $1 million be worth $600K five years from now? I don't think too many people are, no matter how much they love the neighborhood.

As for the supposed bashing of the Park Slope pioneers referred to by 7:43, where is it? No one on this thread has said anything bad about the people who bought in Park Slope in the 1970s, and I don't remember any attacks on them in recent threads, either. Where is this criticism that 7:43 is reacting so strongly to?

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 7:55 PM

This, too, is classic bubble logic:

"Additionally, the NYC economny in general is better than it was during the time Park Slope was so blighted. So the circumstances NOW (not being the 70's) would indicate there is opportunity for advancement to happen much more quickly."

Look, the reason Park Slope brownstones became such massively valuable investments is precisely because people bought them when everyone thought they shouldn't, and because the NYC economy was so bad and then became so great. So the fact that NYC's economy is so good today (meaning that even if it stays good, it won't be getting dramatically better), and that Crown Heights real estate is already so expensive, means that it's very unlikely that Crown Heights brownstones bought today will ever be great investments. The rule is buy low, sell high. Not buy high, and pray.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 7:59 PM

I have a friend who bought a house in prime south slope, between 7th and 8th Ave. for well under $250,000 around 1993.

At the time, the neighborhood was very nice, full of post-college grads renting, but not the yuppie family enclave it came to be. There were tons of restaurants on 7th Ave., so-so schools (but schools okay enough to take a chance on to improve), and not that many people clamoring for brownstones. So lots of regular, professional people (NOT hippies) who had normal paying good jobs could actually buy space to raise a family.

What bothers me most about the run up in Crown Heights and Bed Stuy is that these house are NOT affordable for most people. A typical professional family may have an income of $200,000. Maybe if you stretch you buy a $500,000 house for that, and if Crown Heights/Bed Stuy want to improve, they should have a huge number of homes for $400,000 - $500,000. But they are already priced only for rich people. And THAT doesn't make sense to me. What kind of income do you think a family needs to make to buy a million dollar home anyway? You should be making $300,000 - $400,000/year to buy that home (and that's probably even a stretch).

The way a neighborhood gets better historically is because a tipping point of houses are bought by people with normal incomes who are looking for a family home. As amenities improve, prices rise, and richer folk move in, but that's typically after the neighborhoods have already become more than half middle class.

The problem with the fringe areas is that it's already priced only for the rich, before the middle class has moved in (except for a few lucky people who got in early). There's been no tipping point. So people buy because they are "speculating" the house will soon be worth more, not because they are looking to raise a family and commit to the place. At least, none of the people I know who live in NYC, barring a few fortunate trust fund heirs or wall street types, can afford even the cheapest of of the open house listings today. And those neighborhoods are losing out because if the house prices hadn't been run up so high, lots of families I know would be thrilled to live in Crown Heights or Bed Stuy. But not at these prices -- they simply can't afford it, period.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 8:16 PM

exactly, 8:16 and the things is...and this is an overgeneralization, but a lot of those people moving into these neighborhoods making 300, 400K a year...i have to assume they know a thing or two about money and how to make it.

they will be horrified to find out in 5 years...let's say best case scenario hasn't even depreciated all that much, but even stayed relatively flat.

those people are going to start to look elsewhere, because one has to assume that they bought hoping the neighborhood would improve, thuse more rapidly appreciate their homes. if this doesn't happen quickly in the next couple years, these people will see no further reason to continue raising their families in these fringe, somewhat less desireable places with no hope of a future windfall.

it's just human nature and it makes financial sense as we all have pretty much agreed that while people are looking for homes, they also, in many ways look at their homes as investments in their financial futures.

you'd be terrified and not probably all that suprised to find out how many people with these high incomes have little to no savings and have sunk most of their money in on these homes hoping that they'll pay for their retirement.

while some people who bought year ago might be able to reap that benefit from this latest record housing bubble, i don't think we are going to see another run up in prices like this for perhaps another 15-20 years or so.

people are too fearful of it now. i think people in general across the country would like to keep home appreciation in check so we don't have another repeat of what's going on now where home prices have become so out of sync with incomes.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 8:29 PM

8:16, great post. You nailed it.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 9:06 PM

to go a little further on your post, 8:16...there are a lot of us that have decided to buy smaller places in park slope or other more gentrified areas. i am one of the said young, creative types with a moderate salary and probably would consider a move to one of these fringe areas if i could buy a small fixer upper on my budget of around 300K. that's not possible and so i've decided to buy a studio in park slope. i wouldn't mind being more of a pioneer, but i've already been priced out of the less desireable neighborhoods.

now...i'm completely and totally happy in park slope...i love it in fact...but given the opportunity to own a house or part of one, and could really invest in a neighborhood and try to make some improvements is simply out of reach for me and my peers.

the people moving into these neighborhoods now make a ton of money and many of them seem unwilling or simply are not the type to really get their hands dirty like so many did back in the day in park slope.

so by leaving out the middle class in this process, it has created a very strange dynamic.

people say all the time that park slope is nothing but wealth. that simply isn't true, but a lot of us just have decided to settle in on much smaller spaces to get the dream we want of living in this wonderful world of brownstones.

i feel lucky to have my place at all, but i can just see it becoming more and more a problem in these fringe neighborhoods.

people are impatient these days...more and more everyday...if crown heights and bed stuy don't start to resemble park slope (influc of shops, restaurants, etc) in the next couple years, i do believe a lot of the recent tranplants will downsize to one of the more desirable areas.

i could be wrong, of course, but that's my opinion.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 9:35 PM

8:16 & 8:29 - Your logic makes sense, but I think you rmath is a littel wrong.

My family income is around $150 - $170 and we comfortably bought a $600K duplex condo in south slope. We are young professionals and our income in rising gradually. We will be staying in our home for numerous years and as our income grows our mortgage will stay the same.

I think the assumption that you need to make $300 or $400 a year to afford something that is $800 or $1 mil is little off, and these people are also going to collect rent which will also rise in these areas.

It seems like you are trying to say that only rich people are buying in these locations and one day they are going to realize that their investment isnt paying off and there will be a mass exodus return the neighborhood urban Blithe.

Dont really see that as happening because incomes rise over time, and people spend their rising disposable income in the neighborhoods and improve them.

Just my 2 cents.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 9:46 PM

More interesting posts here (thanks 8:16/8:29), but it doesn't completely describe my situation or that of some of the new residents in the area. I'm caucasian and a wall streeter (if that matters), recently moved to BedStuy because of the phenomenal quality brownstones in the area, the proximity to work, the affordabilty, lowered crime rate, and the people who live here. Affordability may shock a few, but lets face it for $300/sf you can buy what would cost you $1200-1500/sf in manhattan (a 10-15min commute away). Not the same services, fully granted, but that's changing. More to come with the new rezoning of the area currently under review by the city commission with no real oppositions and the billions in investments coming along Flatbush & Atlantic which is only a subway station away on the A-train. Another part that many won't be accustomed to from spending years in manhatten, is the friendliness and neighborhood feel. I've been here less than 1 year, but most residents on the block have welcomed me to the area. Now if prices start coming down, I'm not going anywhere. I might if crime becomes an issue, but with operation impact and local merchants seeking to better the area via a BID next year I don't expect a reversal anytime soon. Bottom line is that what is appealing to some, may not be to others and I respect that. But to assume that this area will go downhill in this next phase of the real estate market is, in my humble opinion, a big mistake.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 10:03 PM

Crown Heights is the Cinderella of brooklyn...And she's
coming to the ball.

Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 10:59 PM

Probably in your bedroom, 12:23.

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 12:41 AM

People seem to have serious misconceptions about PS - such as - "since 2000, Park Slope has added world class stores and restaurants by the droves, has great schools and a park. It has added thousands of people who are raising their children there and has created a very tightly knit urban fabric." - Sorry but PS has been very much the same for the past 20 years. I raised my family there and it has always been family oriented and affluent. The stores may be a bit glitzier and the residents a bit more well heeled but there is no fundamental change and the prices have always reflected that.

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 3:13 AM

One should judge the quality of Brooklyn neighborhoods on a scientific basis. I suggest the hip-hop method: The more “shout outs” a neighborhood gets in rap songs, the more likely the neighborhood is an unsafe place to raise children in. While the number of shout outs for Crown Heights, Bed-Stuy and even Brownsville has decreased dramatically since the late nineties, they are still referenced in songs circulating on the mix-tape circuit. I note that Park Slope and Carroll Gardens have never received such “shout outs”.

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 7:00 AM

3:13 -
where did you live in PS??
I've lived here for 17 years and there was only one bodega and no other business on my stretch of (center slope)5th ave. maybe 7th ave, but not 5th ave. and it was a bit more dangerous, all my frienda at the time had been mugged in the neighborhood at least once, one time was even in front of cousin john's at 8 am on a weekday!

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 8:28 AM

7:55pm, I wasn't saying Park Slopers bashed Park Slope pioneers. I said Park Slopers often sound very superior and judgemental towards the new generation of similar pioneer personalities who are venturing into fringe areas of Brooklyn. Totally different statement.

These arguments saying Crown Heights is the same as Park Slope was 30 years ago, 20 years ago, etc etc, are completely flawed. You can't separate all the neighborhoods of Brownstone Brooklyn or NYC from each other, when prices are tripling, quadrupling, skyrocketing in Park Slope and Clinton Hill and Ft. Greene. One neighborhood is not going to be at 1970's prices forever, while the neighboring one is 2007 prices. The high prices in Park Slope sends the prices up in the other historic brownstone neighborhoods. I'm also skeptical Crown Heights is at a million-dollar-house level yet, though. But it's not at 1970's prices either. Dream on. Lastly, people rathera annoyingly keep using the bubble formula to determine what is a good investment. Stop thinking 2-year flip and start thinking 10 years. Because that's the norm, and we are back to normal now. It used to be to make a nice profit after 10 years in a home was a very good thing. Not something to look down on as not good enough.

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 10:12 AM

I agree, 8:28am, what you said about 3:13's claims. It was NOTHING like I've heard about the Park Slope of 20 years ago. And my knowledge is based on hearing it from people who lived in PS, who love the place and have no interest in portraying it inaccurately. A friend of mine grew up in Park Slope and her parents bought a house there 30 years ago. And my husband bought a coop apartment there 11 years ago that we sold last year. My husband was on a prime North Park Slope block, closer to 5th Ave, and he and every single person I've ever met who lived in Park Slope at that time says 5th Ave was a dump. All grubby bodegas. No faboo restaurants or shops. I myself moved to Brooklyn only a few years ago and even in my time I saw 5th Ave improve immensely. What is 3:13 saying??

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 10:22 AM

Bought in Crown Heights a couple years ago and am thrilled with it...

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 10:25 AM

I would never seriously entertain the prospect of living in Crown Heights or even owning property there. However, I'm glad Crown Heights is there if only because it makes the rest of Brooklyn's neighborhoods look good.

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 10:46 AM

It's pathetic how the CH people on this board have to CONSTANTLY reassure themselves and others. When you see that kind of crap going on, it's just more evidence of CH's supreme suckitude.

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 10:56 AM

Brownstoner, there appears to be someone making multiple abusive posts in a row that serve no apparent purpose. This seems to have happened a few times on this thread, and occasionally there's some offensive language involved too. Is there any way to put a halt to this? I am all for freedom of speech but this kind of thing serves no purpose except indulging the poster's personal masturbatory vitriol.

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 11:04 AM

I suggest you all check the web site www.shopbedstuy.com and get your copy of the Neighborhood Shopping Guide to see what is spreading in Bed Stuy as you speak; perhaps you might visit some of these fine businesses to see for yourselves and then more intelligently predict 5 to 10 years from now.

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 11:29 AM

the park slope in The Squid and the Whale seemed pretty much the same to me.

just less extremely rich people.

5th ave is only one of the number of avenues in park slope

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 11:37 AM

now we're comparing reality to movies?

lord.

park slope 20 years ago was nothing like it is now. 5th avenue, 6th avenue, 4th avenue, flatbush avenue, anything below 9th street and prospect park. 7th was ok...the homes nearest the park, especially in the north were being refurbished, but a huge chunk of the neighborhood was suffering from years of neglect and blight...abandoned buildings everywhere.

it was very much like crown heights is now. pockets of nice, with a majority still needing quite a bit of tlc.

don't speak on subjects you know nothing about.

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 12:02 PM

The Park Slope Food Co-op has changed significantly in the past 20 years from a place with wooden shelves to a place with conveyor belts much like the rest of Park Slope.

www.shopbedstuy.com

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 12:15 PM

Someone made a reference to not expecting Crown Heights and Bed Stuy houses to remain at 1970's prices. Of course we don't, but that neighborhood should be more like Park Slope 1990's prices if they truly want to get better. Instead, they are 5 times higher.

Park Slope was fine in the 1990s, from 6th Avenue up. Fifth Avenue was scary. But you could buy a nice affordable house between 7th and 8th ave in the 10th - 15th blocks and it wasn't scary at all -- in fact, lots of new college grads lived there. Not particularly lovely, maybe, but for your $300,000 you got a bargain - especially with a rental to help you out. So people bought brownstones because it was totally affordable -- in fact, cheaper than a co op.

The reason 5th Avenue changed is because the rest of prime Park Slope houses kept getting bought up by families. In order to get a house CHEAP, they started buying homes between 5th and 6th Ave, and made them nicer. Then 5th Ave. improvement followed.

Geez -- I know people who bought houses for $400,000 in Carroll Gardens in 1999, and in Windsor Terrace in 2001. They were already middle class neighborhoods, but not particularly fancy or desirable at that time.

Those of you that think we're talking about 1970s just don't understand. A house in Bed Stuy or Crown Heights should be snapped up by a family because it is a bargain -- that's why people bought in park slope, windsor terrace, carroll gardens in those early days.

Now, you expect them to stretch to buy a million dollar property, which is only a bargain by some comparison with Manhattan or prime Brooklyn. Well, the same people I know who would be willing to live in Bed Stuy or Crown Heights because it was affordable would far prefer an affordable place in Inwood, Queens, or the burbs, than buying an expensive home in a fringe Brooklyn neighborhood, because there's no middle class there yet, and no good services.

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 12:17 PM

Thank you 12:02.

Those claiming Park Slope was some kind of paradise in the 1970's, please ask someone who lived there then. Don't get the information from a movie. Besides, if you notice in Squid and the Whale the big fancy restaurant of Park Slope was Hunan Delight. That hardly makes it like it is today. As for 5th Ave I saw for myself what it used to be like and it was crap. I don't live or own in Crown Heights. I just can't stand the completely inaccurate statements from the Park Slope boosters. The Park Slope market is doing just fine. It doesn't need the extra help based on lies. Stop being so greedy.

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 12:23 PM

guest 12:02 I moved to Park Slope in 1984 and lived there 3 years. In south slope between 8th and the Park. I had to trek way down to Union Street (or thereabouts) and 7th ave. for my groceries until the Dag's opened up on 6th st., which was a drag. But it was a solidly middle class, safe neighborhood, NOT "pockets of nice". Yes, it wasn't fancy, but at least half the run down buildings housed professionals in jobs that paid low wages (arts, non-profit). I don't think that describes Crown Heights now, or does it?

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 12:23 PM

But 12:17, it's all relative. The market is connected, not disconnected. $1 million IS a relative bargain when you pay $2.5 to $3 million for a house in Park Slope. Back when houses were $400,000 in Park Slope they were $150,000 in Crown Heights and other fringe historic areas. That's the same ratio, about 3:1, you see now. Some fringe neighborhoods will never ever cost as much as Park Slope, mainly because the schools are no good. BUT, face it, if prices keep going up in Park Slope all prices in Brownstone Brooklyn will go up to some degree.

Brooklyn is literally the only place I've ever been, where people actively insult people who buy in neighborhoods they themselves choose not to buy in. Why the hell do you care where someone else buys their house? What does it have to do with you? Even in L.A. people don't insult those who buy in historic fringe areas close to downtown. I think that makes Brooklyn more shallow and materialistic than L.A. right?

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 12:32 PM

12:17 poster again -- it makes me laugh to read all the posts saying how bad 5th Ave. was. Yes, it was bad until the late 1990s. But guess what? The houses near 5th ave were CHEAP!!! Duh, that's why people bought them.

Now you seem to think fringe areas should only be affordable to people who buy million dollar homes because it's cheaper than Manhattan. But that doesn't make them affordable to the vast majority of professional people. Park Slope, Windsor Terrace, etc., WERE affordable to those people when 5th Ave. was bad. Bed stuy and Crown Heights are NOT affordable, and certainly not a bargain a family is going to snap up, with prices like these.

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 12:33 PM

It wasn't "solid" middle class throughout, 12:23. There are STILL low income apartment buildings in Park Slope to this day. I personally have walked into houses for sale for $2.5 million chopped up into grubby low income apartments, used as low income apartments until very recently. Park Slope since the 70's started getting more new residents who were middle class academics and artists and professionals, yes definitely. But it was absolutely very mixed with low income people all the way through the 90's. They're still there too, they're just invisible to you it seems.

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 12:41 PM

You can't compare like that 12:32. It just shows how completely out of touch with reality you are. When you are comparing 2.5 and 3.5 million dollars apartments or homes compared to 1 million dollars homes now, you are not realizing that those expensive homes make up like 2% of the homes in the country...sure...more here in New York, but these are REALLY REALLY expensive homes for a minute percentage of the highest earners in the COUNTRY. The average apartment price, even in NYC is like a little over a million bucks. You are referring to things 2 and 3 and a whole lot more times the average price...even in this insanely expensive city.

Comparing that to the 300K, 400K or 150K bargain is what literally most of the homes and what most of the population can afford.

You've become so ensconced in your affluence that you don't realize that despite the housing prices, those that are extremely wealthy are a small number of people.

Crown Heights has left out the middle class. period. No one buying million dollar homes...or even 750K thousand dollars homes are what I would consider middle class.

I know it means something different than what is used to, but the average income in New York City is still around 50K a year.

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 12:46 PM

12:32 the richest American's income has increased many times more than that of the middle class.

Just because there are more rich people who regularly pay 10+ million for a Manhattan abode that used to cost $1 million doesn't mean that a typical family who used to pay $200,000 for a home can now pay $2 million. Sorry, I wish it were so, but it's not.

You are correct, those homes are a bargain compared with the 2.5 million dollar price tag of a Park Slope home. The problem is, that doesn't make it a bargain for someone making $150,000/year. Maybe, if they finance right, hold their breath, don't have any repair bills, etc., they MIGHT be able to buy a house in a fringe neighborhood. But not so long ago, people with that same relative income could buy a house in neighborhoods like Windsor Terrace and find they had money left over because their housing costs were so affordable. And THAT's why they bought there.

I'm just saying these kind of high prices in fringe areas are pricing out lots of people who might have lived there if it were a bargain. Instead, they are going somewhere else (Yes, out of Brooklyn). And telling them that a million dollars is cheap because Manhattan brownstones cost 10+ million doesn't really make a difference since they can't afford either price.

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 12:46 PM

12:41 you miss my point. Low income people aren't invisible. They just don't affect the quality of life of the neighborhood, and they didn't back in 1984 when I lived in south slope and 5th ave. was rough. That's the whole "tipping point' argument -- a neighborhood doesn't have to be all rich to be nice -- in fact, it's better with some diversity. Manhattan neighborhoods have low income apartment houses, too, and that doesn't affect the quality of life.

But when there's little middle class, with the majority of residents very poor, and no amenities yet, it doesn't make people want to pay a million bucks to live there when they can buy something in a more middle class neighborhood in Queens for half the price. Yes, they'd prefer the Brooklyn neighborhood, but if the price somewhere else is that much lower, they will settle for somewhere else.

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 12:53 PM

the only low income people left in park slope, 12:41 are those who are rent stabilized or rent controlled. please don't be so closed minded to see that.

very few low income people live north of 15th street and east of 4th avenue. i don't see a studio in that entire stretch i just mentioned for less than 1500 a month. that is not rent for a low income person. not even in new york.

those older folks are in a different class that the supposed low income you think we're blind to. my neighbor pays 300 bucks a month cause she's lived here 45 years. while she might have a low income on paper, she also has reaped the benefit of sticking it out in a once pretty bad neighborhood and now lives quite well and benefits from all those years of dedication to a place she loves.

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 12:53 PM

so anyone knows whats wrong with st marks pl?

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 12:53 PM

It seems that a lot of people here are talking about a different reality. A time when many parts of Brooklyn, despite being part of NYC, were not considered by many professional NYkers as a safe/vibrant place to live. That historic perspective has gradually shifted in recent years, to a point where many people work, live, shop, dine, etc in Brooklyn without ever going to manhattan. For the lack of a better word, there's a trend towards manhattanizing certain parts of Brooklyn with NYC's largest capital investments planned right here over the next 5-10 yrs. I respect comparisons to the 70s, 80s, & 90s, but you have to look at the other secular trends that were not at play decades ago that's shifting persceptions about Bk living. Beside capital investments, the significantly lower crime rate (NYC is now the safest large city in the US), the demographic inflow (back in the 70s, no one forcasted that one million people would be moving to nyc over the next decade), or even LPC's increased focused in landmarking Bk. Granted some familities wanting to find room to raise a family may indeed not be able to afford to buy a brownstove in CH/BS, but those can't certainly find an rental apartment big enough in manhattan & permit them to save to buy a house or build a college fund either. Bottom line, is that they are different macro realities that have changed the lifestlye & demographic of the city in recent time, which makes NYC what it is today. If those factors revert back, then we can compare to the 70s. I'm sure some will disagree, but only time will tell.

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 12:58 PM

Do you all realize the irony of most of the criticisms of Park Slope?

Park Slope is such a nice place, mainly because of all the middle class, creative professionals and the like that moved in in 15, 20, even 10 years ago. That is the core of Park Slope and the food co-op and the thrust to improve the schools and the services in the neighborhood.

MOST of the criticisms of Park Slope come about to rag on the rich liberal class that have moved in over the last 6 or 7 years. It's not of the people who have been here for ages, and although happen to be wealthy on paper now because of their homes, are still middle class, normal people.

You have now priced out those people from Crown Heights and Bed Stuy. You have a very small middle class, with large low and a growing upper class. It makes for unstable neighborhoods.

The key to any good neighborhood is the diversity of the class system with a solid middle to offset the low and high.

Crown Heights...due to this recent housing bubble, along with other neighborhoods in New York and in the rest of the country have been side-swiped, through not fault of their own to now have these very non-diverse and increasingly segregated neighborhoods.

I'm not sure what the answer is though. Housing prices dipping might be just what these neighborhoods need to see that they don't fail down the road.

The world is moving towards a more urban society. It would be good to work on the problem because it seems that more and more people will need to live closer and closer together if we have any chance of keeping this world from overheating. It's kinda all related. This new shift away from the suburbs is something I think that will be talked about a lot in our future...as much as the white flight to the burbs was so integral to the decline of the American City 50 years ago.

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 1:05 PM

Actually, 12:53pm, there were 2 large buildings with low income apartments in them on our prime North Slope block. Mostly Puerto Rican residents. I'm not insulting them, or Park Slope. Love Park Slope. Just saying it is not quite yet like a CT suburb.

Good info Bob Marvin and guest at 12:58. Nice to hear actual knowledge of NYC economic history.

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 1:29 PM

Park Slope won't be like a CT suburb. But it has nothing to do with the low or upper class.

It has everything to do with the large middle class.

It remains intact because so many people love the neighborhood feel, the park, the co-op, the architecture, the shops, the restaurants and many other things.

Those are there because of the middle class that made Park Slope what it is and are able to stay because we were lucky to have so many people be able to pick up bargains before 2000.

These other neighborhoods don't have that same luck at the moment.

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 1:34 PM

Mr. B, there's also someone on here expressing opinions that I really, fervently disagree with. Is there anything you can do to silence them?

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 1:48 PM

Ugh...I hate the PS Food Coop. I love good food as much as the next guy, but my god the people at the coop are soooo bloody neurotic. Honestly, I'd start eating a McDonalds and shave ten years off my life rather than have to deal with those creeps.

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 1:56 PM

not really the point, 1:56.

but thanks for sharing.

this thread has been interesting so far. there are the really great differing, intelligent posts and then there have been the lowest common denominator posts.

hmmm...reminds me a little bit of a couple neighborhoods we've been discussing.

very little middle ground.

makes things livable but uncomfortable a little bit, no?

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 2:00 PM

Once nice things about Crown Heights is its prime selection of crack whores. Not the dirty, occasionally messed up kind who looks like she's just crawled out of a car accident; but the tired-looking kind who probably won't mind getting slapped around a little.

There are some nice things about Crown Heights.

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 2:03 PM

Why do people keep saying there is no middle class in Crown Heights or in other lower priced historic brownstone Brooklyn neighborhoods? There certainly is a middle class, a longtime middle class.

The reason Park Slope has better amentities now is because of all the apartments rented by hipster young singles. People who until recently only wanted to live in Manhattan. Those are the ones who eat out every night and go drinking every night and go see bands at Union Hall, etc. Until those kids came in replacing the low income renters little by little, Park Slope's amenities were okay, but were not all that hip and mostly just basic. There weren't great bars and top restaurants and cute trendy boutiques. There's nothing stopping young hip renters from venturing into the fringe neighborhoods, certainly not with the rents getting so high in Park Slope. We're seeing more and more of them where we are.

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 2:51 PM

The problem with Park Slope is that it doesn't have enough crack whores and is overrun by stroller moms and obnoxious babies.

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 3:03 PM

I can't believe that at 100+ posts the CH posters here are still falling all over themselves to justify their decision to buy/live in Crown Heights. For crying out loud, yes, you made a foolish mistake getting involved with this part of Brooklyn. It's now up to you to face your mistake, not enlist the aid of this website and its readers in your continued efforts at self-deception.

Crown Heights stinks. It is a foul neighborhood, full of cop killing, drug abusing, gang banging rapists. Deal with it and leave us alone!!

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 3:06 PM

Oh, and see I thought this was an interesting discussion about real estate in all of historic Brownstone Brooklyn not just the *approved* areas.

But now that I'm corrected I'll move on, since I don't even actually live in Crown Heights anyway. I just appreciate people who renovate and care for beautiful historic houses. I think people like that are pretty cool. But that's just me.

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 3:35 PM

2:51...but everyone says Park Slope has no hipsters and that it's filled entirely with familes and tons of children in strollers.

Which is it?

If you really think it's young singles keeping business alive and well in Park Slope you should walk over to Blue Ribbon or Al di La or Matter or...

We have some places for singles, sure...but you are making it sound like the east village, which it is certainly not.

Businesses here are supported from an upper middle class that is strong and has some discretionary income because they bought houses cheaply a while ago and now have an incredible neighborhood that they helped build.

To suggest that once you are no longer single means you no longer frequent bars, go out to dinner or shop makes me glad that I've yet to have children.

What's the point of living in a city if you aren't going to partake in any of those things any longer?

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 3:38 PM

Guest at 3:38pm, it's not my personal opinion that young hip renters bring a great number of hipper amenities, it's a known fact in real estate in NYC.

Nor is it up to my personal opinion whether Park Slope is filled with stroller moms or hipsters. Look at facts. Add up how many studio and 1BR rental units you have in Park Slope and there's your number of young singles.

Why is everything on Brownstoner always about people's personal, emotional, subjective opinions? Sounds like the George W. Bush way of becoming the decider.

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 3:45 PM

How would we count that, 3:45 since many couples live in 1 bedroom apartments.

Feel free to come down from your high horse anytime.

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 3:49 PM

The Clinton Hill House Tour is on October 6th.
The Bed Stuy House Tour is on October 20th - the 29th anniversary for The Brownstoners of Bed Stuy.
The Bedford Stuyvesant 10k is on October 7th at 10:00 AM and 35% of it goes through Crown Heights - the 26th annual Bed Stuy 10k, and a great tune up for the ING NYC Marathon.

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 4:13 PM

lots of homeless, 4:13?

compared to?

i usually see a homeless person or two around there, but no more than i see on 5th avenue in manhattan outside prada.

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 4:17 PM

Out of all the houses, I'd most prefer the one on St. Marks.

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 4:32 PM

Tavern on Nostrand Is a great restaurant in Crown Heights, nice as anything else in bklyn and Bombay is great for Indian on Franklin - they deliver to anywhere.

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 4:33 PM

Tavern is an okay place, but it's still in Crown Heights, home of some of NYC's worst Jew hating, gang banging, cop killing, date raping miscreants.

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 4:38 PM

Wow, Le Toukouleur is an excellent restaurant on Bedford and Quincy - live music and jam session on Mondays, and Tiny Cup on Nostrand and Clifton is a great place.

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 4:45 PM

4:13, the CROWN HEIGHTS house tour is October 6th, not Clinton Hill. They had theirs in the spring.

Tour starts at 12 noon - 5 pm, at St. Gregory's RC Church, corner of Brooklyn and St. John's Place. Take 3 train to Nostrand Ave, among other transit choices.

We are showing 10 houses, 2 historical churches, and 1 community garden. Tickets are $25, can be purchased day of event, or on line at www.crownheightsnorth.org.

It's our first tour, and first official debut showing off our Historic District. Come see what all the fuss is about, we think you will be pleasantly surprised.

CHN House Tour Committee

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 4:53 PM

We are showing 10 houses, 2 historical churches, and 1 community garden. Tickets are $25, can be purchased day of event, or on line at www.crownheightsnorth.org.

It's our first tour, and first official debut showing off our Historic District. Come see what all the fuss is about, we think you will be pleasantly surprised.

CHN House Tour Committee

Looking forward to it, and try to come out on Kingston or Eastern Pkwy or Bedford the following day to support the runners in the 10k going through your area.

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 5:08 PM

Looking forward to seeing you all in April!!!

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 5:10 PM

Poverty, crime, poor schools, and other social ills are here too. But block by block, day by day, those of us who care are doing what we can, and we will affect change. It didn't all break overnight, it won't get fixed overnight. I welcome people who can be agents of change and new neighbors. The attitude of the trolls is the stupid mouthings of ignorant, bigoted, gasbags. A lot of sound and fury, signifying absolutely nothing.

Posted by: Montrose Morris at September 22, 2007 5:12 PM

I appreciate this and see if you can encourage the merchants who live in your area, or care, to do what we did in Bed Stuy form an Alliance and create a site www.shopbedstuy.com; they can call shopcrownheights.com and let people in your area know what is available.

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 5:18 PM

And I suppose those cops who were killed recently were also ignorant, bigoted, gasbags? You should be ashamed of yourself. Those men gave their lives in the line of duty. You of all people should not disrespect them now. Wow...

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 5:21 PM

they can call shopcrownheights.com and let people in your area know what is available.

I meant to say they can call it shopcrownheights.com not that it already exists.

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 5:24 PM

I think this is my favorite brownstoner thread EVER. This is sooooo awesome!

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 5:25 PM

i used to live 3 houses down from this church on ovington ave in a beautiful limestone. the church is huge, w/ a school attached, a huge parking lot and an 1899 limestone used by the priest or someone like that. in any case, i called the brokers, mackey knasal and asked if the church would be willing to sell the limestone separately since it really would be bad if they developed that lot as it abuts to a row of other limestones...i was willing to pay market price...they weren't willing to sell as it would only mean they were giving up precious development rights (little as they were compared to the rest of the site).

in any case, forget the church...a beautiful old limestone will be torn down instead of keeping it.

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 5:27 PM

I feel your pain. In fact, I think you are in good company with many Catholic parishioners who are heartbroken about recent closures of many of their architecturally beautiful churches and the loss of community that involves. I don't think that it is necessarily a matter of denying the aesthetic connection to spirituality that many of these churches are closing (or selling the structures for condos), but that these beautiful old churches are very expensive to maintain and sometimes cannot be supported by the communities they serve. I am not sure what this pastor meant exactly, but in an awkward way perhaps he was saying that the cost of maintaining the structure might drain limited resources from things that were more directly beneficial to the congregation. I don't know. I was part of a parish once in Brooklyn which worked tirelessly to save its stunning 150 year old church and its small but vibrant congregation in the face of shifting demographics and a shrinking congregation. It could have been too much for these people in Bay Ridge, I don't know. It's sad though. For me, it would be a strange living there - I could never dance at the Limelight either.

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 5:27 PM

This is just a natural continutaion of the trend that has swept bay ridge in the last 3 years. The neigborhood has become completeley awash, AWASH, in Fedders.

Its truly happened with breathtaking speed. In fact, if you go onto Microsoft virtual earth, and scan over bay ridge, you'll still see many attractive Victorian mansions and other properties that simply aren't there anymore. There was a particulary gorgeos Victorian on the corner of 75 st & 10 ave, sitting on a green 100x100 lot. Gone, gone, gone. Replaced by a hardcore Fedders from our friends at Bricolage. I do, however, take some small consolation that several of thier units have been languishing unsold for over a year.

Guess the developers are running out of Victorians to knock down, and are going after churches now. I also like the way they are tossing out the school, despite pretty serious overcrowding conditions in the local public schools from the recent surge in immigration.

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 5:28 PM

I LOVED that house on BR pkwy. I can't believe it's gone! I moved from BR to LIC about 3 years ago. I lived 2 blocks away from this church. It is so beautiful and I can't believe it's being demolished. Why can't they demolish the school next door? I would support a 12 story building there if it meant saving the church.

And re: the fedders onslaught, I'm so glad we rezoned so we slowed the process, but homes are still being demolished. A nice one on 68th on my old block is now an ugly new building. Have you been on 91st between 3rd and 4th? OUCH!

I understand some houses are going to go. But they are replaced with absolute shit, and THATS what we should have fought; design quality, in addition to a downzoning. The only decent new building is the glass beauty on Shore Road....if only they all had a budget like that, for REAL bricks and CENTRAL AIR.

Bay Ridge was once beautiful. Now it's just beautiful in pockets. The 76th street step street is my favorite.

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 5:29 PM

Oh Lord (pun intended). Brooklyn was developed by land speculators who first built churches for free and then lured congregations over to buy in the areas surrounding the church. Now you're upset because the congregations are turning the tables?

Where I'm from congregations (mostly fundamentalists) waste billions on sanctuaries while people in their communities go hungry and without proper education. If this congregation thinks they can better serve the Gospel by gettinng top dollar for their property, then you have little room to judge them.

As for what bubble, why should they break up the parcel to suit you? Would you do the same for a buyer who made a similar offer? Come on.

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 5:29 PM

I live just down the street from the church in question here, and have heard the "stop building Fedders already" argument over and over and it's wearing thin on me. As a renter, I am itching to be able to pay a mortgage rather than rent, and condos can be a nice entry point for first-time buyers in this city. Real estate is tight and expensive in Bay Ridge, but I love living here, and when it's time for my husband and I to buy, we'll probably have to leave. I say bring on the condos - though I do hope they are built with more concern for the neighborhood aesthetics than others have been.

As for budgets and morals - yes, I agree budgets show where your prioritites are. But as a Christian, your priority should not be preserving a moneypit. It should be spreading the Gospel, and if your building drains your ability to do that, you should shed it. Open the Bible - Jesus didn't send his disciples out to preach with a full complement of camping gear and the first century equivalent of an RV. They took one tunic and set out to preach and serve, dependent on the generosity of their communities.

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 5:31 PM

It's not the mafioso in CG, it's the older neighborhood folk, many of whom are living in the same house they lived all their lives, who look out for one another. The nice thing about Carroll Gardens is that many of the cops, transit workers, small store owners, and others still live in the neighborhood and it hasn't been completely overrun with yuppies, hipsters, or whatever you want to call the newest arrivals. At least, not yet.

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 5:34 PM

they make it sounds like CG is some undiscovered enclave! it is pretty impossible to get a decent/cheap apt there. sunset park for $1000--yes. CG is already over and done with. that's a million dollar brownstone area...even the old italian ladies (my landlord) are hip to it and the rents they charge has skyrocketed.

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 5:34 PM

cg is quite lovely, but for nearly the same money, i'd still take park slope anyday over it.

being so close to prospect park and to be able to wake up on a spring or summer saturday and stumble up there is an amazing treat.

and if you're in the north slope, the access to the q train and 2/3 trains far surpasses being close to the f train, in my opinion.

i think people far undervalue being close to the park. if you lived there, you'd know...

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 5:35 PM

I think the park is great but so is being closer in carroll gardens to Manhattan and being able to walk to the promenade and i just continue to say the yuppies in carroll gardens have the same intellect as park slope just a cleaned up version. The only difference is the old ladies that still own some homes in carroll gardens. Both areas are great, i just like carroll gardens a little better but prospect park is great.

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 5:38 PM

It makes a lot of sense look at the people and the kids, carroll Gardens kids look like they took a bath, the parents look like they cleaned underneath there finger nails. That's what it means very simple stuff here , you just need to open your eyes.

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 5:42 PM

My husband and I like Bushwick a lot but wonder about the L on the weekends, any thoughts? Also who is a good realtor for the nabe? Seems listings on nytimes are all new and we're interested in something old or old-ish

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 5:48 PM

Carroll Gardens is WAY expensive now, and the F train blows. Even when I lived there over 10 years ago I had to let 3 trains pass before I could sandwich myself in durning morning rush. I can't imagine what it's like now, and getting to work every morning late and crabby is a horrible way to live. For the same price you can live in Manhattan anyway, with better subway options.

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 5:49 PM

Yeah you're right you can buy a brownstone in Manhattan for the same price in Brooklyn. Not. What planet are you from.

Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 7:46 PM

OK...To respond to previous post about fringe areas being out of reach for the middle class. BIG WAKE UP CALL HERE! There are already middle class Americans leaving on the "fringe." However, these people are not white. This may come as a shocker, but not all black and Latino areas are filled with the under-educated and under-privileged.

The truth is that the homeowners are usually black and middle class, and the renters, which are the majority, may be working class to simply derelicts.

What you see is working class people and run a few down buildings. However, the owners have jobs and assets similar to all of you who are complaining about being priced out. (Hard pill to swallow isn't it?)

Hence, the prices in Bedstuy and Crown Heights are not moving. After all, you are not buying a brownstone from a Crackhead.

Posted by: guest at September 23, 2007 10:28 AM

I'm one of the posters who complained about the fringe areas being out of reach for the middle class. I admit, I have no idea of the economic breakdown of Crown Heights and Bedstuy, so if those neighborhoods have a significant middle-class, regardless of race, then that is a wonderful sign.

What I do know is that I rented an apartment in the south slope for years, beginning in 1984. At that time, and for the next 8 or 9 years, you could buy a townhouse in the same neighborhood for $200,000 or $300,000. Which was way beyond my reach as a poorly-paid recent college graduate, but very affordable for professional couples starting a family, especially with rental income.

And, despite complaints here about what a dump it was, I had every type of service in the neighborhood. I shopped 7th Ave. every weekend. I agree, there were no fancy shops or hipster bars, but it had all the services a middle class family needed, as well as tons of restaurants which weren't particularly good, but certainly a convenient place to grab a bit to eat, which I often did. You'd think from descriptions here that if a street isn't filled with fancy boutiques, restaurants, and cool nightlife bars, it's a dangerous dump. But actually, the services then were probably more geared to middle class families than now. If that describes fringe neighborhoods now, great. What bothers me is that house prices in those neighborhoods, compared to the adjusted average income of middle-class professionals, is many times higher, so that people don't see those neighborhoods as possibilities where they can buy a home, raise a family, and have money left over. Instead, they need to stretch to buy something at best, and hold their breath that prices increase and no one suffers even a brief job layoff since mortgage payments are taking a large chunk of their income.

By the way, I think a troll is re-posting lots of old posts from previous discussions. What a sad person, let's all ignore them.

Posted by: guest at September 23, 2007 11:16 AM

I certainly respect your view. I agree, Bedstuy and Crown Heights do not have the emenities enjoyed in Park Slope just 10 years ago, pre-gentrification.

However, Brooklyn is becoming a place for second and third home buyers. (Its just that competitive). These people are not relying upon their incomes for a downpayment. My wife and I are an example. Sold a coop in Forte Green, bought a house in Bedstuy.

The first time home buyer can be found in Yonkers on Long Island.