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September 20, 2007
Inside Third & Bond: Week 6
Now we're getting into the juicy stuff! After hearing last week about the potential impact of the project on neighbors, this week David Kramer and Alison Novak from The Hudson Companies discuss the design process and, at the end, ask for your input on several matters.
We know many of you are eager to see floor plans. Above is the street-level duplex of the typical townhouse at Third & Bond. This version is probably the 20th or so iteration. Between this one and the initial version, shown below, we made some big decisions.
The idea to do the duplex came from the townhouse typology and the desire to make marketable use of the cellar space. While many duplexes in Brooklyn use stoops to create two floors of habitable space, for handicap access purposes in a multi-unit building, our ground floor unit needs to be located at the sidewalk grade (no stoops). We decided that if we add an internal set of stairs to the ground floor apartment, we could still create a duplex unit with a lower level. But many duplexes, where the upper level is at sidewalk grade, don’t have great lower levels; they’re glorified basements. We realized that if we excavate the rear yard to a lower grade so that the lower level has light and air, we could make the lower level much more marketable.
More floorplans and discussion on the jump...
This floor plan:
shows our initial take on the duplex. The width of the townhouse is 20 feet. (Remember, when we bought the land, we had in mind that we would build 9 townhouses, each 20’ wide, on 180’ of Third Street frontage.) There are 3 bedrooms on the upper floor and living/dining room on the lower level. We didn’t like it. We decided that it made more sense to have the living room/dining room/kitchen on the upper floor. When you’re arriving home with groceries, it seemed a pain to go down a set of stairs to reach the kitchen. And we didn’t like the 20’ width. This plan shows 2 bedrooms, each 9’5”. We wanted to have a larger master bedroom that was at least 11’ wide and a second bedroom that would be 9’. So we adjusted the floor plans to 21’ townhouses, which we knew would end up changing the configuration of the last townhouse on the corner. At this point, the floor plan looked something like this:
We liked this better: two bedrooms of different widths, the master bedroom has an ensuite bathroom, and the unit is shaping up to be a sizeable apartment: 3 bedrooms + home office, 3 baths, and great entertaining space. Plus, the home office can really be used as a 4th bedroom since a window could go in the 10 foot areaway (where it says Open to Below).
Until we changed our mind. While the areaway does provide light to the home office, our colleague Bill pointed out that areaways tend to look lousy over time and become depositories for litter and cigarette butts. Not to mention the areaway detail is not inexpensive to build, and the light quality from a 10’ areaway is not so fantastic. Given that we already had 3 bedrooms, we decided the apartment was sufficiently compelling without bringing light to the home office.
And so we arrived at the floor plan at the top: 3 bedrooms, home office, 3 baths, in 1,950 square feet. As you’ll see comparing plans, we added a lot of storage and closet space, like in the master bedroom. Some of the other things we debated and debated:
• Should the upper level bathroom be a 2 fixture bath, or 3 fixture bath, and if 3, should it be a shower or bathtub? Our resolution: 3 fixture, bathtub.
• How wide and deep should the deck be off the upper level?. Our resolution: as wide as the townhouse, 5’ deep.
• Should the shower be in the master bath or the second bath? Our resolution: second bath is shower-only and master bath is bathtub with shower.
And on and on and on. We find we’re always tweaking floor plans up until the time they’re actually built. But we’re getting there.
We’d love to hear what you think and have posed a few questions for online polling.
Inside Third & Bond: Week 5 [Brownstoner]
Inside Third & Bond: Week 4 [Brownstoner]
Inside Third & Bond: Week 3 [Brownstoner]
Inside Third & Bond: Week 2 [Brownstoner]
Inside Third & Bond: Week 1 [Brownstoner]
From our lawyers: “This is not an offering. No offering can be made until an offering plan is filed with the Department of Law of the State of New York."
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Comments
I don't get what you are using that blind hallway between the bedroom and stairwell on the first floor for. Why not use that space for a closet for the bedroom, or move the stairwell over?
Posted by: guest at September 20, 2007 11:53 AM
Don't leave the stoop out. The state street houses, for instance, work so well because they have stoops.
Also- I can buy a house in Gowanus for what you think you'll sell the duplex for.
Just sayin'
Posted by: Park Place at September 20, 2007 11:54 AM
Why isn't the top floor bedroom the master? It seems bigger, and far more desirable. I'm not crazy about the 2 dug out basement bedrooms -- I like them on typical basement levels, but not on subbasement, even if the back is dug out. Doesn't that increase chance of those bedrooms getting water if there's flooding?
In terms of price, I have to agree with above poster that it seems pretty expensive for 1 floor plus a dug out basement floor, especially for location. But I probably wouldn't buy something like that in that location even if it were $700,000, so I guess I'm not your market. I'd rather go to Inwood or Queens -- my desire to live in Brooklyn doesn't mean I'll pay through the nose for something I don't really like. But I'm sure I'm in the minority, so good luck -- and maybe if Gowanus becomes a nice family-friendly area soon the price will seem cheap.
Posted by: guest at September 20, 2007 12:07 PM
I agree with 11:54---you need a stoop! or it won't feel like a townhouse.
Posted by: guest at September 20, 2007 12:07 PM
Guest 11:53: Not sure if I know what you're looking at -- the area directly across from the entry? With the closets on the left? We've talked about turning that entire area into a walk-in storage closet. What do you think -- better?
Park Place: We can't have a stoop because the entry for the first floor unit has to be at sidewalk grade. It's a handicap accessibility issue for multi-unit bldgs. And there isn't enough room for a ramp. We would have liked a stoop, too.
What do you think we should be asking for the duplex?
Posted by: Alison at September 20, 2007 12:09 PM
Who wants to work in an office with no windows?
Posted by: guest at September 20, 2007 12:10 PM
If your only light on the bottom floor comes from the rear windows I don't know if you should put a deck above them...there will never be light streaming in your bedroom windows...
Posted by: guest at September 20, 2007 12:14 PM
I don't get what you are using that blind hallway between the bedroom and stairwell on the first floor for. Why not use that space for a closet for the bedroom, or move the stairwell over?
Posted by: guest at September 20, 2007 12:16 PM
850K for the duplex and the cellar is going to flood. Expect unhappy buyers once it keeps happening.
Posted by: guest at September 20, 2007 12:18 PM
Guest 12:07: I don't know if we have room for two bathrooms on the 1st floor. I guess we could lose the storage closet to make room. The master really needs its own bath, and the kitchen/lr also needs a bath.
Hmm.
Overall, how does the storage feel?
Posted by: Alison at September 20, 2007 12:19 PM
11:53 here,
Yes, I was referring to the space across from the entry. A walk in storage closet, or walk in closet for the adjacent bedroom seems better to me. Or expanding the bedroom to make it the master.
Posted by: guest at September 20, 2007 12:19 PM
If handicap access is a requirement then doesn't that require a handicap access full bathroom and bedroom on street level? And if that is the case you probably want the master bedroom at the back of the house and place the living/dining area at the street front.
Posted by: guest at September 20, 2007 12:26 PM
Where are the windows?
Posted by: guest at September 20, 2007 12:40 PM
In most buildings the basement rooms are called recreation room - even with nice windows and dugout comeing with them..... Further we were told that it is not allowed to expand to add a shower or bathtub to the downstairs bathroom.
What is different here, so that you can have 'official' bedrooms and full bathrooms downstairs?
BTW: I guess no basement storage rooms for higher floors.....
Posted by: guest at September 20, 2007 12:43 PM
Definitely make it a walk in storage closet. Have hangers on one side, and shelves on the other. Did you see the NY Times article about California Closets being a major valuable new amenity for Manhattan apartments? I think that thoughtfully finished closet/storage space is a GREAT thing and that it really adds value.
- Jen KG
Posted by: guest at September 20, 2007 12:43 PM
Or another idea is to split the space in two and make half a walk-in closet for the bedroom and the other half a storage closet for the apartment at large (with sections for brooms, shelves for towels and cleaning supplies, etc). In either scenario, finishing off with thoughtful design and fixtures is key.
- Jen KG
Posted by: guest at September 20, 2007 12:45 PM
I appreciate the headache you're probably going through to get this designed and built, and while it's a good marketing move to have this all open on Brownstoner, it must also be a bit hard to hear us all carping.
That said:
1. If you're not going to put a stoop on it, then don't call it a townhouse. It's an apt building. It won't look like anything else but an aparment building without a stoop.
2. My brownstone was built in 1865, and it has an almost 'at grade' entrance to the ground floor, and a really nice, high stoop. Surely there is a way. I see bigger apt buildings with stoops and ramps up or down. Also- doesn't the internal staircase hurt the accessibility as well?
3. You could put separate entrances on it, like some of the houses in PLG and Crown Heights.
4. In sure you know a ton more about the regulations- My challenges to you are not about that, but to have you explain to us in a more satisfactory way.
Posted by: Park Place at September 20, 2007 1:24 PM
It is completely illegal to have bedrooms and anything more than a two piece bathroom below grade, as well as having a duplex space that exceeds 50% of the size of the space above. I'm curious how you plan on getting away with this and what kind of architect would allow this and what kind of developer doesn't know this? It seems to me you just opened up a whole can of no-no on your project, now every bitter or angry neighbor has you by the balls. Please explain.
Posted by: guest at September 20, 2007 1:33 PM
I agree with guest at September 20, 2007 12:43 PM. I don't see how the cellar can be anything else but in excess of 50% below grade which, per NYC code, makes it a non-habitable space. The plan even seems to acknowledge that, to some degree, by calling the room next to the mechanical room "home occupation", a variation of "recreation room" I guess. If I'm right, there's no way you're allowed to have even one full bathroom down there, let alone two.
I applaud your decision to blog this development but I have to say the high regard I held you in for doing it is now somewhat muted by what seems to be an attempt to make an end run around (at least the intent of) the code with regard to basements.
Posted by: johnife at September 20, 2007 1:47 PM
Wow! So many good questions. Where to start?
Our expeditor took our cellar floor plan to DOB and talked through the cellar bedrooms so that we could feel confident that everything will work. We'll have light and air easements in the rear and 30' back from the windows to the edge of the propery will be clear to the sky. This has been done recently in other projects in Carroll Gardens. The rear yard will be lower than the sidewalk grade, so it won't really feel like being down in a cellar.
On the corner & Bond Street we have different 1st and cellar plans, so we are looking at putting storage for any homeowners who want it down there. Not a done deal yet, but we'd like to offer additional storage if possible.
Posted by: Alison at September 20, 2007 1:53 PM
I have rec room in a similar situation triplex (a few blocks away) and I would never use it as bed room. Trust me I've gone through a series of cellar floods through-out the summer. Gowanus is the wrong place for a cellar rec room.
What are you planning to do to deal with the check valve constantly being deployed when it rains and waste water comes from the units above?
I'd be happy to show you what I have and why what you're doing isn't a good idea for living space.
Posted by: guest at September 20, 2007 2:24 PM
We've talked a lot about water concerns: flooding, sewage backflow, a general damp feeling in the air... These are definitely problems we don't want to have and think we can design/build around. Knowing exactly where the water table is across the site has helped, and we've discussed measures like a waterproof bathtub to encase the foundation, drains, back valves, etc.
Posted by: Alison at September 20, 2007 3:10 PM
Funny how quickly you shrug off the advice of the locals. I cant believe you would even consider building bedrooms below grade in Gowanus.
But hey you don’t need local residents to tell you, Bond and Third is directly in the FEMA floodplain!!!
See link-
https://hazards.fema.gov/femaportal/wps/portal/!ut/p/kcxml/04_Sj9SPykssy0xPLMnMz0vM0Y_QjzKLd4w39DQESZnFG8Qbm-pHogk5IkSC9L31fT3yc1P1A_QLckMjyh0dFQEgqdkI/delta/base64xml/L3dJdyEvd0ZNQUFzQUMvNElVRS82X0NfUDE!
I think you should go ahead and build your foundation bathtub... And when the drain backs up like it does for the rest of the hood, you can call it a swimming pool in the listing ads.
Posted by: guest at September 20, 2007 3:40 PM
This place was built with all of those things and it still floods. Good luck with the lawsuits 6 months after you sell them.
Posted by: guest at September 20, 2007 4:19 PM
For all the wise cracking posters who think they can buy a brownstone for the price listed for the condos, don't forget to factor in renovation costs, which to bring up to a condo level of renovation would clearly put you over $2MM.
Posted by: guest at September 20, 2007 5:22 PM
And here we thought everyone was going to focus on tubs versus showers. To put in my own 2 cents to supplement Alison….
“Who wants an office with no windows?” Plenty of people. I’ve seen the “home office” used as a library, media room, storage room, and dare I say it, home office. I even have a friend who has 3 kids living in a home office.
“Light won’t stream through a deck.” Agreed, we’ll have to pick some mesh material for the deck that will allow light through to the lower level.
“I wouldn’t pay $700K for this unit.” One comp would be the lower duplex in the L3 Condo on Luquer Street. In those units, the lower level is only a rec room and 2 fixture bath. Those 3 units initially sold for $1,050,000 to $1,095,000. One of those units recently resold for $1.5 million. That’s how we came up with the range of prices for the online poll.
“Our neighbors have us by the balls/we’re doing an end run around the code.” We’re waiting for the Scarano analogies. The big difference here is that we’re counting the lower level as FAR (floor area). If the space is considered a freebie and not utilized as FAR, the limitations cited would apply.
“Third & Bond = New Orleans.” We have plenty of engineering to help us out that may or may not be comparable to other flood-worthy situations: a bathtub foundation, sewer ejector pit, detention tank, a continuous trench drain along the back of the buildings, and perhaps most important for this location, our lines drain into a 72” storm line on Bond Street that has a steep pitch. Having said that, there will always be concerns that are not unique to Third & Bond about what happens when the City’s systems shut down. We’re curious whether any of the problems noted in today’s comments are directly connected to the 72” Bond line.
Posted by: David from Third and Bond at September 20, 2007 8:42 PM
Why don't you have stairs outside of the building that go up a full floor. Have the entrance to the first floor at sidewalk level enter through the base of the stairwell. It will keep the townhouse/brownstone feel.
Posted by: guest at September 20, 2007 8:45 PM
David, you should think twice about locating the washer/dryer near the bedrooms. These machines hum and vibrate, which means people who are bothered by this, like me, won't be able to do the laundry when someone is sleeping.
Posted by: HuntGrunt at September 21, 2007 2:18 AM
I think you should move the main floor bath to the other side of the stairs (where the dead end corridor is). Makes more sense, maybe can even have a second do from the bedroom. Also you have a much better open view from the liv/din area which now includes the stairs (assuming there's no partition/closet where the X is now, that should be moved to the other side of the stair as well)
Posted by: cmu at September 21, 2007 8:26 AM
I looked at the FEMA maps too and it said the site was in a place with an 0.2% annual chance of flood. That doesn't sound like much to be worried about. When was the last time the Gowanus overflowed its banks?
Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 12:45 PM
David--if you have a friend with 3 kids living in a windowless room maybe you should give them one of these apartments when you're done. Sounds like they could use it.
Anyway, I just want to be one more person to pipe in about the need of a stoop for it to be a townhouse. Can't you have an entrance at ground level for the lower duplex and then a stoop above it leading to the parlor floor? Wouldn't that free up square footage in the duplex? (no need for an interior hall/staircase to get up the other apartments)
Also--you mentioned in a previous post that you would address parking concerns later. Looking at the floor plan, and reading that you are considering storage space in the cellar of the corner building...are we to gather that you really have no intention of providing any on-site parking for a 40-unit development?
Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 12:47 PM
That's exactly how it should be. Parking is not required for a 3-unit townhouse, so why for a 9 townhouses?
Posted by: cmu at September 21, 2007 5:14 PM
I walked down Third St: there are a lot of stoops but the buildings with stoops don't have any entrances at grade. There tends to be a stoop (flight up) and then a few steps down to an entrance slightly below grade. If you need wheelchair accessibility, neither entrance works. Wheelchair accessibility basically means you can't have that partially in the ground level plus parlor floor -- you have to have a full on first floor and then second floor. Maybe one of those super long stair stoops would work, but then the building would have to be set back farther than the street wall. And if the building is set back but you need 30' in the rear for zoning, then you've lost a bunch of floor area for the units. Lost floor area equals lost money. I like stoops too, but I can see why they might not work here.
Posted by: guest at September 21, 2007 5:15 PM
cmu--no, parking is not required for a 2 or 3 family home, but these are actually 5 family homes...8 of them...if it was one building with one entrance parking would be required.
5:15--that's the way the current buildings are but when you're staring from scratch can't you build to suit? No need to place the ground floor a few feet below grade with steps down, just build right at the sidewalk grade.
Question about wheelchair accessibility-what about inside? are you planning elevators? The plans look like stairs but I'm not an architect so maybe I don't know how to read it...
Posted by: guest at September 22, 2007 12:05 PM
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