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September 11, 2007
Atlantic Yards No Selling Point for Nearby Sites?
A building smack at the crossroads of Park Slope and the planned Nets arena is on the market for $13 million. The property, on Flatbush between Fifth Avenue and Pacific Street, is across the street from the recently vanquished JRG Fashion Cafe and currently houses a furniture store as well as a few other retail spaces. Right now a developer can build up to 40,000 square feet on the footprint but, per the sales listing, “there is excellent potential for partial block up-zoning to create a residential midrise or high-rise.” Interestingly, the listing only includes a passing mention of the fact that the site is right across the street from “the proposed Forest City Ratner Project spanning a large area around and over the Rail Yards.” Perhaps brokers are shying away from using AY’s ginormous mish-mash of out-of-scale towers, constant construction and blaring traffic as selling points?
Flatbush Avenue Listing [Corcoran] GMAP
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Comments
I hear that real estate values in Chernobyl also dropped after the big nuclear accident years ago. Strange.
You hear that loud "whoosh" sound? That's the sound of your property values falling as the AY accident gets underway.
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 9:52 AM
Isn't this block to be isolated by the planned diversion of northbound 4th Avenue traffic east up Pacific Street to 5th Avenue? That's a selling point, isn't it? access sells at first, but then isolation brings a greater price.
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 9:57 AM
Property values may be falling (across NYC) soon but it won't be because of AY and certainly citing a listing that is asking over $300 a buildable foot is about the dumbest way to make the point that AY will hurt property values
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 9:59 AM
at least Ratner will be making a killing during the RE market crash. you'd hate to think everyone was suffering.
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 10:06 AM
How 'bout an entertainment complex like a Dave and Busters? And a hotel? We'll need a sports bar for less fortunate Nets fans.
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 10:38 AM
AY will create a drop in property values in Brooklyn that will make the rest of the country feel good about any mere market correction that takes place.
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 11:04 AM
I don't know if AY will cause property values to fall (actually, I doubt it), but the group of people who think it will is creating a boom for me, as a RE broker. They want to sell their brownstones before AY is built and it's definitely helping my business.
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 11:09 AM
Could we have one non-guest commenter who is selling because of AY please post and tell us about your decision? lol didn't think so...ah the sky is falling.
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 11:17 AM
By the way, if any of these Anti-Ay people were in attendace at any of the meetings on the project, the primary arguement was that AY would BOOST re values.
That was one of their biggest concerns, actually.
So you are the ultimate hypocrite now saying the opposite. Makes you sound really ignorant as well.
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 11:19 AM
Before you call other people ignorant, please learn to spell "argument".
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 11:23 AM
11:19 - I don't think anybody outside of the coterie of Ratner toadies has ever argued that AY would raise property values.
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 11:29 AM
I assume if you live in Prospect Heights or Fort Greene, a few blocks from a massive construction site, sounds of jackhammers and dust everywhere are not going to be good for property values or quality of life. Post-construction, who knows?
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 11:34 AM
My guess is that values will drop somewhat during construction, and then drop significantly over the 5-10 year period following construction.
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 11:50 AM
AY opponents have, in fact, stated on many occasions that AY will cause instant gentrification while at the same time claiming that it will cause property values to plummet. It's one of their core contradictions.
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 11:50 AM
That's not really a contradiction, 11:50.
The AY project itself will build a a large amount of expensive housing while casting the surrounding brownstone neighborhoods into shadow and greatly increasing congestion.
The stadium will also lower values of surrounding homes, because nobody who isn't ensconced in a sealed tower wants to live next to a sports arena.
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 11:58 AM
how on earth could AY make property values drop? that's hysterical!
i used to live in prospect heights, and it was half ghetto. i loathed living there because of the people. there were disgusting and threatening. the amount of garbage and food just thrown around was simply gross. the AY immediate area is shit! there are gangs, low lifes, projects, etc.. around there. AY will make it pretty for more higher income people to move to Prospect Heights - not fewer!
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 11:59 AM
More than 10 years of construction will create congestion, noise, pollution and dust that will make a lot of people's lives miserable. Whether this causes wholesale price drops across our borough I don't know. But people living on construction routes (i.e side streets along Atlantic and Flatbush in all directions) will likely see their quality of life drop substantially. I'd imagine that 10 years of heavy trucks blasting by 24/7 would hurt some property values - not to mention the vibration from hundreds of millions of tons of materials being schlepped through our neighborhoods.
On the condo front, I'd think the 6,000 condo's we taxpayers are building for Ratner might apply some downward pressure to the local market. Demand equalling supply and all that. OK, technically I think we're only footing half the bill for the project - so we're paying for 3,000 of them.
Posted by: Johnny at September 11, 2007 12:02 PM
The one nice thing about this is that regardless, Ratner is hemmorhaging dough as a result of his high-handedness.
Who knows when this thing will get underway?
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 12:13 PM
Ah yes, thank heaven's they'll build a stadium so there won't be any "garbage and food just thrown around..."
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 12:17 PM
I thought that area was zoned for a 10 FAR.
That would make that land sale more like $130 a square foot, much more reasonable. $300 a square foot is very high, and probably the average in Manhattan.
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 12:24 PM
Yes, it is a contradiction, 11:58. Unless you can point me to a gentrified area where the property values, including rents, have plummeted, then you have no case.
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 12:26 PM
I know of no projects involving a building by a major starchitect that did not generate higher real estate values for the surrounding neighborhood.
If shadows and tall buildings were your formula for price drops, I'm wondering how you can explain a little place called Manhattan?
The largest construction site in New York City is that of the World Trade Center. If you kept up with things, you'd know that the Financial District has added 6000 new residents since 2001, with stores like Hermes and Tiffany opening up. It is now one of the most expensive and thriving neighborhoods in all of Manhattan...even with noise, constructions and dust (some quite unhealthy dust, in fact).
Please try to think before you just spew thoughts that are completely asinine.
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 12:30 PM
For what it's worth, I suspect that the current uncertainty and self-contradictory hysteria of the AY opponents is the only bad thing for property values. Once construction starts and it turns out the sky is still in place and maybe AY is not so bad after all, that goes away.
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 12:34 PM
Can someone please give an example of when living next to a massive construction site has decreased property values for a whole neighborhood? I have a few counterexamples: Battery Park City (WTC site, and constant new construction in BPC itself), the Time Warner Center, and all the towers by Lincoln Center.
Posted by: oe at September 11, 2007 12:35 PM
Dubai is nothing but a construction site and 1 bedroom apartments start at a million bucks there.
But the older folks in Brooklyn still have an inferiority complex. It's kinda like Philadelphia. They just can't wrap their heads around the fact that Brooklyn is increasingly a very desirable place to live. It is no longer considered only a place where Manhattanites go when they are priced out.
With all the money in the world, I'd still choose Brooklyn over Manhattan anyday.
Atlantic Yards, while not perfect will draw a significant amount of attention to downtown Brooklyn and will be a boom to tourism. I'm already seeing it now. Tourists are everywhere in Park Slope these days. Especially from Germany.
Times are changing for Brooklyn and some will get left in the dust and some will embrace it and move forward.
We see it quite clearly on this blog. Those who have low self esteem can do nothing but say AY effect about every item posted, and those that are comfortable with themselves have accepted it and moved on.
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 12:47 PM
11:58 talks nonsense. I was here when the World Trade Center was being built, and the opponents said the same sorts of things. Then they said the same things about MetroTech, which continues to attract more pricey residential projects, and is a hell of a lot better place to walk around and hang out than it was in the 1980s. There is little question the area's real estate will increase in value post AY. This is particularly true of areas 1-3 miles from the project's center, such as Prospect Heights and Crown Heights' landmark district. For some reason, this scenario is KILLING 11:58.
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 12:47 PM
12:26 through 12:47 are all the same Ratner toady. What's with all the inane talk about low self-esteem and inferiority complexes? It's about quality of life. You talk of "some quite unhealthy dust" like it's a selling point.
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 1:05 PM
Hmmm...And what did you add to the conversation 1:05?
Talk about inane...
I saw the comment about dust not as a selling point, but an example of a neighborhood in Manhattan that is attracting large numbers of wealthy residents despite living in a construction zone.
Or was that too difficult for you to comprehend?
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 1:13 PM
Brownstoner, please end the suspense and verify that 1:05 is incorrect. I should know, because I am 12:26 and did not write any of the other posts he/she referred to.
It's amusing to note that many AY opponents have subtly admitted defeat. In other words, they have shifted from predictions that project will be stopped to predictions that it will decimate the neighborhood. It's nice to know that they have accepted the failure of their legal strategy.
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 1:20 PM
Not to be morbid, but perhaps the reason the financial district gained so many new residents was the availability of 9/11 reconstruction loans. IIRC, when the towers were standing, no one wanted to live in BPC, let alone be there after 5 p.m.
As for AY, my objections are in the scale. My favorite neighborhoods in the city are those that developed willy nilly, not 6,000 condo units at a time. If you want a preview, just look at Trump City between 60th and 72nd Strees on the West Side of Manhattan.
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 1:20 PM
I'd say what I added to the conversation, 1:13, is incontrovertible proof that you are indeed a Ratner toady. My work is done.
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 1:24 PM
That's a low margin of proff, but what does one expect from an AY opponent?
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 1:30 PM
It is sad when people are so blinded by the idology that they refuse to accept reality.
Downtown Manhattan/BPC is about as great an example you'll ever find of an area with massive construction (far greater than AY will ever be), of high rise structures (i.e. increased shadows, scale etc...), and enviromental issues (far greater then AY will ever present) where despite the above, prices are increasing (from a point significantly higher then virtually anywhere in Brooklyn).
Yet rather then accepting that reality and shifting arguments (or position) the typical/usual AY response is to say something retarted like - its because of low cost reconstruction loans. Which is of course retarted because the cost of the APARTMENTS to the consumer -rent/price- is going UP so the loans/incentives etc... havent been passed on to those that would object to ongoing construction, lack of amenities, etc....
And BTW pre-9/11 enough people wanted to live in BPC that prices there (inc rent) were still higher then virtually anywhere in Brooklyn.
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 1:58 PM
Not to mention that the Financial District's residents have an income average of $165,000 per year. Three times the Manhattan average.
People need to wake up.
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 2:03 PM
Someday this war's gonna end. That'd be just fine with the boys on the boat. They weren't looking for anything more than a way home. Trouble is, I'd been back there, and I knew that it just didn't exist anymore.
Captain Benjamin L. Willard - Apocalypse Now
The What.
The American Dream requires you to be asleep......
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 2:04 PM
We didn't care the other 50 times you've posted that, 2:04.
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 2:06 PM
I don't care so much if my property value goes up since I plan on living here for good. It's my home, not an investment. What I do care about it more traffic, more crowded subways, more sewage, more drain on the electrical grid and so on. Is anything being done to address any of these issues?
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 2:10 PM
Yeah, 2:04, watch some other movies and pick up some new quotes, for God's sake.
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 2:14 PM
Thank you, 2:10pm, for pointing out what most posters completely fail to understand. And thank you 1:20 for inviting people to imagine Trump City right there at the corner of 6th Ave and Flatbush, because that's exactly what it's going to look like.
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 2:20 PM
Ummm, the AY from a developer's perspective is awesome. You WANT to buy across the street from that.
Here are some of the benefits:
1- Rapid property appreciation
2- Improved neighborhood visability and safety, helping to rent units more easily.
3- Improve government services, helping to further increase value.
4- If retails exists; greater foot traffic means more potential customers.
5- A HIGH likelihood of a zoning variance allowing for a larger more profitable building.
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 2:24 PM
I'l take Trump City over a gaping hole in the ground any day.
You just proved the point.
No development is perfect, but this area could certainly benefit from upscale towers. I don't see anyone running for their lives on the Upper West Side.
I see them flocking there, to be perfectly honest.
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 2:30 PM
The AY will NOT cause a long-term decrease in property values. Historically this is not accurate when developing a nearly deserted site such as the rail yards. The blocks immediately surrounding the AY will experience significant appreciation in the next 5-10 years.
The decrease in property values occured 50+ years ago with the construction of a NYCHA tower along Atlantic, the widening of Flatbush Ext, the abandonment of most adjacent buildings in the 70s and 80s.
Yes- the AY will change the type of consumer that purchases housing in that area but it will definitely not decrease demand for housing. If there's a drop in housing demand it won't have anything to do with the AY.
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 2:33 PM
Are Trump City and a hole our only options? I agree that the area should be developed, but can't it be a bit more in scale?
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 2:38 PM
It would be great if it were more in scale, but since I didn't buy the land myself to develop, I'm not going to spend the rest of eternity obsessing over it.
I'm going to accept that it's not perfect, deal with it, find the positives in it and move on.
Or you can continue writing A-Y-E on every post.
It's up to you.
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 2:41 PM
I'd rather keep fighting this bloated boondoggle than just roll over and take it, thanks.
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 2:47 PM
I hate to break it to you, but writing in the comments section of brownstoner is not really where the fight is at, at the moment.
You might want to come up with an alternate plan.
There is a point where fighting the inevitable becomes rather absurd.
The project is moving forward. Period.
We can hope that Ratner has taken into account the lastest in market conditions on the soon to be released new designs. Perhaps they will be a little more scaled back.
Since most people on here protest if something is built a story taller than a brownstone, I don't believe the scale will ever be in line with the anti-AY people no matter what they look like, however.
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 2:53 PM
Inevitable? I do not think it means what you think it means.
best regards,
Inigo Montoya
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 3:46 PM
Someday this war's gonna end. That'd be just fine with the boys on the boat. They weren't looking for anything more than a way home. Trouble is, I'd been back there, and I knew that it just didn't exist anymore.
Captain Benjamin L. Willard - Apocalypse Now
The What.
Hey people please read this. Tell me that you are better off today than 3 years ago Flame on baby!!!!
http://drhousingbubble.blogspot.com/2007/09/invisible-mortgage-hand-analysis-of.html
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 3:48 PM
Please 3:48. Comparing Southern California real estate to the market in NYC is just asinine. Laughable.
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 3:55 PM
I am by far better off today than 3 years ago.
Bought a studio last year for 250k and six months later sold to move in with the girlfriend. Got 339K. Yup. 6 months profit of 89K. Sold FSBO.
Keep renting, 3:48.
You seem too stupid to buy, much less post comments that even make sense.
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 4:47 PM
"Please 3:48. Comparing Southern California real estate to the market in NYC is just asinine. Laughable.
Someday this war's gonna end. That'd be just fine with the boys on the boat. They weren't looking for anything more than a way home. Trouble is, I'd been back there, and I knew that it just didn't exist anymore.
Captain Benjamin L. Willard - Apocalypse Now
Yo Homeslice , Did you read it??!! The asshats think that New York is different. The is a financial storm coming that will effect us for a long time.
3 million dollar brownstones,700 k condos give me a fucking break.
How about 100 oil and 1000 gold and a falling dollar. The money in your pocket is losing value every day you brainwashed fuck.
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 4:52 PM
New Quote " Go fuck yourself"
The What
"I am by far better off today than 3 years ago.
Bought a studio last year for 250k and six months later sold to move in with the girlfriend. Got 339K. Yup. 6 months profit of 89K. Sold FSBO.
Keep renting, 3:48.
You seem too stupid to buy, much less post comments that even make sense."
Yo Homeskillet, That's price inflation not appreciation dumass. Look at the price of goods when you brought your studio. The Fed pumped dollars into our system and created this mess.
Plus if was such a great this why you sold it??! You couldn't wait for the next sucker to pawn off your shit to. Look at rent to buy ratios and tell me you studio is a great but to the person you sold it to.
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 5:04 PM
OMG. it's official.
5:04 is the most idiotic post ever!!!!
inflation of 89 thousand dollars in 6 months???
what in god's name are you talking about?
lie down that crack pipe man.
everyone on here knows you're a sicko posting those stupid quotes on every thread.
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 5:10 PM
"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - George Orwell
:OMG. it's official.
5:04 is the most idiotic post ever!!!!
inflation of 89 thousand dollars in 6 months???
what in god's name are you talking about?
lie down that crack pipe man.
everyone on here knows you're a sicko posting those stupid quotes on every thread.
No Dumbass learn to read and understand.
The What
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 5:21 PM
Well.....actually alot of the gain was probably simple inflation and in reality it wasn't really a 'useable' profit.
The point I think 5:04 was trying to make is that if your apartment appreciates by 35% BUT you are moving to a similar area that also had a 35% price appreciation you really didnt "profit" at all.
Now lets ignore closing costs, etc - essentially the apartment had a 35% price increase.
Certainly the 'market' didnt increase by 35% anywhere in NYC during any 6mo period - BUT it did appreciate and so what you have to look at to determine real profit - is what did an apartment comparabable to the one you moved into cost 6mo before.
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 5:24 PM
That wasn't the point.
The point was whether we are better off now than we were three years ago.
Nearly every person who bought a home, would probably answer yes to that question, if we are talking strictly financially better....
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 5:44 PM
Just think about our existing sport venues. Are they located in areas you'd want to live?
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 7:56 PM
yes.
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 8:24 PM
I used to live near Fenway Park in Boston, and whenever a game let out, the neighborhood was a living hell of car traffic, crowded subways, and drunken boneheads. Sucked. Big time.
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 9:00 PM
Sounds like the east village, williamsburg, meatpacking and the lower east side.
And people hate to live there.
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 9:14 PM
Oh 9:14, such a clever riposte. Not a valid comparison, but cleverly worded. Have a cookie.
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 9:38 PM
And Fenway Park is bad example as well since it is approximatley 2x the size of the arena and Basketball has 1/2 the number of home games as Baseball.
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 10:34 PM
So, half the boneheads and half the frequency of said bonehead flocks? Yeah, sign me up for that.
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 10:46 PM
There are plenty of people who will welcome your spot in Brooklyn once you leave it because of AY.
Don't let the door hit ya on the way out.
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 10:56 PM
Oh, I'm staying right here in Brooklyn. I'm thinking it's going to be AY that gets shown the door:
"With lawsuits pending, opposition to the Atlantic Yards project reaching a crescendo, and the global sub-prime lending crisis threatening large-scale construction projects everywhere, Forest City Ratner’s plan is anything but a done deal. Come see how UNITY 2007 would transform the Yards without displacing residents or overwhelming surrounding neighborhoods."
http://www.developdontdestroy.org/php/latestnews_Linked.php?id=935
Posted by: guest at September 11, 2007 11:28 PM
It is hilarious that the DDDB drones are still wasting time honing alternative plans. They have lost every court battle so far and and their number of supporters have dwindled. In a recent article, Daniel Goldstein refused to tell a reporter how much money was in the DDDB legal fund, likely because that amount is pitifully low. Give it up, guys. The battle is over and you have lost, all because of your incompetence.
Posted by: guest at September 12, 2007 1:42 PM
Fenway Park is a garbage dump, home to a team of LOSERS and a collection of loudmouthed fans who don't know squat about baseball. You experience was not surprising in the least.
Posted by: guest at September 12, 2007 1:43 PM
The anti AY-ers haven't lost because of their incompetence. They've lost because more people want the project than don't. DDB has always represented a group of self-interested people who want to maintain the status quo (namely, their rent-controlled apartments and lower-than-Manhattan home and apartment prices, which by the way already price-ut a significant number of New Yorkers). DDB and their ilk didn't conceive a "Unity" plan until they saw they precious lifestyles threatened. They still haven't explained how AY will "destroy" the neighborhood. It will, however, destroy their elitist way of life, which is all they were concerned about from the beginning.
Posted by: guest at September 12, 2007 1:49 PM
1:49 should have stopped his last self-serving tirade at this: "The anti AY-ers haven't lost."
Riddle me this Ratman, how is a bunch of luxury hi-rises not elitist?
Quit trying to paint the whole AY project as anything other than a boondoggle greedfest.
Posted by: guest at September 12, 2007 1:53 PM
Riddle me this Ratman, how is a bunch of luxury hi-rises not elitist?
Oh...so 1 minute the arena is a garbage dump filled with slobbery drunks and the next it's only luxury high rises?
Which is it? Make up your MIND!
Posted by: guest at September 12, 2007 2:18 PM
D-O-N-E-D-E-A-L!!!
Posted by: guest at September 12, 2007 4:32 PM
Evidence, please?
Posted by: guest at September 12, 2007 6:19 PM
I grew up in Park Slope, bought a place in Prospect Heights near Grand Army Plaza but it's too small and I'm considering buying one of the last units available in the NewsWalk. they're huge and really nice. also I was able to rent out my current place for a profit after just living there for one year so that was a no-brainer. Buying in the Newswalk with AY around the corner is certainly far from a no-brainer. Anyone on here live there? Buy there recently? Or live nearby? more thoughts than what I've already read? and no I don't need comments from people just looking to insult me or others thanks.
Jord
Posted by: guest at September 14, 2007 12:52 PM
It's amusing to note
People need to wake up.
I hate to break it to you
Please try to think before you just spew thoughts that are completely asinine.
Makes you sound really ignorant as well.
We didn't care the other 50 times you've posted
Hmmm...And what did you add to the conversation ?
what in god's name are you talking about?
the people there were disgusting and threatening
They just can't wrap their heads around the fact that Brooklyn is increasingly a very desirable place to live.
lie down that crack pipe man.
Was that too difficult for you to comprehend?
you have no case.
Talk about inane...
You seem too stupid
No Dumbass learn to read and understand.
Someday this war's gonna end.
You might want to come up with an alternate plan.
There is a point where fighting the inevitable becomes rather absurd.
The battle is over and you have lost, all because of your incompetence.
Don't let the door hit ya on the way out.
Go fuck yourself
"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - George Orwell
Posted by: guest at September 14, 2007 1:21 PM
I don't need comments from people just looking to insult me or others thanks.
You're in the wrong place friend.
Posted by: guest at September 14, 2007 1:23 PM
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