Atlantic Terminal Station Starting to Show its Face

Gabby can you name something built in the last 50 years that you like or or at least dont have a smarky comment about?

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 11:42 AM

Brooklyn...the new Providence

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 11:47 AM

what makes the architecture even worse are the ghetto establishments that lease there, along with their accompanying signage.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 11:49 AM

It's not even about it being ugly, which it is. It's a failure. The stores are crap. It's not nearly as nice as the worst mall in New Jersey. That's how bad it is.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 11:50 AM

So true about it being the worst-stocked Target ever. I've almost written to the Target Corp. to complain. Also there's the complete lack of any help, and the insane lines. I also get disgusted at the families in there spending every dime they have on junk they don't need. That place epitomizes everything that's wrong with this country.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 11:58 AM

why does brooklyn retail only cater to poor people and overly trendy garbage hipsters?

nothing in between...like maybe a GAP??

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 11:59 AM

11:49 - Ghetto establishments?

Target - in every upscale suburban community in this nation

Mens Warehouse - they sell suits

Cold Stone Creamery - see Target above

Starbucks - ubiquitous and not at all "ghetto"

Daffy's - not a single store in a "ghetto" neighborhood - unless you consider SOHO or Smithtown to be ghettos

Victoria Secret - see Starbucks

Bath and Body Works - see Starbucks

Guitar Center - since when did guitars become "Ghetto"

DSW - see Daffy's

The only stores that could possibly be considered at all low brow are Mandee's, McDonalds and Chucky Cheese.

The Target is one of top revenue producers in the chain and the mall is virtually fully rented - please define "failure" for us.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 11:59 AM

Can't wait for Atlantic Yards! Anyone who thinks it will be any different than this (or than any other RATner development (Metrotech?) is in for a huge disappointment. It will be EXACTLY as bad as this mall if not worse.

Ratner is a racist who clearly doesn't think that residents of Brooklyn deserve anything better than sorry architecture, poor usability/accessibility, crappy merchandise and sub-standard service.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 11:59 AM

11:59 are you deranged - you think Ratner controls the merchandising and service of the stores in this mall?

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 12:02 PM

Don't miss the word "virtually" in 11:59's post. This mall is NOT fully rented, all these years later.

Failure.

Everybody says so.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 12:05 PM

Me at 12:05, when I referenced the 11:59 post, I meant the first post at 11:59, the guy defending Atlantic Center as some kind of fabulous shopping experience.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 12:06 PM

11:59 is right. A failed mall would be an empty one. The problem with lack of merchandise at Target is that this is the number one store in their entire chain. They can't restock the shelves fast enough.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 12:06 PM

Atlantic Center/Atlantic Terminal have BLIGHTED Brooklyn. They are singularly unpleasant places to shop (due to sthe upposedly anti-theft lay-out), not to mention completely hideous. Everything Ratner has built in Brooklyn so far is hideous and destructive of the streetscape (viz, the superblock design of Metrotech). I can't imagine why Atlantic Yards is going to be any different. You know that saying about insanity...

The fact that people buy loads of crap at Target doesn't redeem it. It just shows that there is a voracious appetite out there for loads of crap, and this is the only place in the vicinity that you can buy loads of Chinese-made garbage. Hell, there's times I've wanted to go to a mall and buy a pile of cheap crap, but that mall is such a horrible place to shop, I always think better of it.

Maybe I should thank Ratner for helping me limit my shopping and save money by building such a horrible mall.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 12:09 PM

daffy's is indeed ghetto...ever see the carp they sell

pathmark is ghetto

burlington coat factory is ghetto

marshall's is ghetto

payless is ghetto

buffalo wild wings is ghetto

i'll give u starbux and coldstone

but this Target is the most ghetto one ive ever been to in terms of shopping experience...so what if they sell well? crack did well in the 80's are you sad to see that gone?

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 12:09 PM

I like the mall. It is 100% better than the .....NOTHING....that was there previously. I shop there often, I'm definitely not poor. Also, I happen to think the GAP sucks shit. You don't have to drive to the mall, because the site is the western terminus of the LIRR, and is also a major subway station. Brooklyn natives like me have been waiting a long time for some major retail WITHIN the borough, and though this is no architectural masterpiece, it works for me. And if the anti-mall posters on this site stay the hell away, the mall and the area that surrounds it will be even better.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 12:11 PM

eh Malls suck in general but the target is a convenient place to get stuff cheaply.

Bitch on wannabe suburbanites...sorry there isn't enough high end stuff for ya.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 12:13 PM

All these years later?? The mall has been open 3 3 years - and if there are any vacancies they must be fairly small b/c they are not immediately apparent.

The mall is far from a failure, it is clearly serving the community as demonstrated by the crowds and obvious success of the anchor tenant (Target) (people are complaining that it is TOO crowded, w/ too many lines and not enough merchandise - how is that failure??)

You may not like the architecture - or the idea of a mall, or chain stores but that is your TASTE and while the Atlantic Center could certainly stand some work, and the parking/elevator situation stinks - overall the community has spoken with their $ - and they say that they don't care about your taste.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 12:14 PM

Wow, 11:59, excellent job! You sure knocked 11:49 on his/her ass.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 12:14 PM

12:06--That gives Target even less of an excuse for its dismal condition! The volume of turnover should be fairly predictable, as well as the need for competent staff. Every time I go there, whether it's Monday morning or Saturday afternoon, it's impossible to find anyone in any department for help with missing stock. And I've even been there on consecutive days to find the same shelves missing the same exact items. A couple hours to restock is forgivable, but not a day.

But we digress. Yes, the building is fug.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 12:15 PM

Blighted Brooklyn? Ridiculous. If you hate shopping at the mall so much, 12:09, stay the hell away from there! There are other more "pleasant" and less "hideous" places for your sensitive ass to shop. Stop whining, get used to the fact that AY is being built, go do some yoga or something to lose your bitterness.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 12:16 PM

D-O-N-E-D-E-A-L!!!

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 12:16 PM

AY will help speed along gentrification of undervalued historic sections located further into Brooklyn, because people will want to be as far away from the AY blight as possible.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 12:17 PM

Carver bank...ghetto

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 12:18 PM

While I won't argue about Target being poorly stocked, and in need of much employee help, both on the floor and at registers, I do have an issue with someone's disgust at seeing "families in there spending their last dime on junk they don't need." Umm - I could easily argue that practically every American of any income group spends way too much money on junk they don't need. No one NEEDS a $5,000 Prada handbag, or their Manolos, any more than someone in Target may need some cheap toys from China, or a chip and dip bowl with dancing jalapeno peppers painted on the side. Lower income people are in Target for the same reason higher income people like it - cheap stuff, and lots of it.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 12:19 PM

12:17 is correct...sunset park will benefit mightily from this

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 12:20 PM

Well, 12:14, most those shoppers you're so proud of come from Flatbush areas of Brooklyn and there's a brand new BIGGER Target store being built on Flatbush as we speak! So it's buh-bye Atlantic Center shoppers. Once they're gone, the stores at Atlantic Center get no biz. And yes actually, 3 years later in the hottest neighborhood in Brooklyn, the storefronts should all be rented out. Sorry.

Lastly, it's not just a few people's personal tastes that call Atlantic Center ugly. Ratner himself says it:

From the Brooklyn Paper, March 27 2004:
"Ratner, who in the past has been tight-lipped about the poor design of the mall, recently admitted that mistakes were made.
'When I started, I did not have any understanding of the importance of architecture,' Ratner told New York magazine. 'So honestly, Atlantic Center is not something that we’re terribly proud of.' "

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 12:21 PM

here here 12:19. I suspect that the problem some of these posters actually have is with the color of the families doing the shopping.

-a white guy

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 12:23 PM

12:09 - Virtually no one cares about your arrogant, morally superior, (and no doubt temporary until you have a kid) anti-consumerism message.

Some of us can't afford or don't want to spend triple the price for toilet paper, or dog food or diapers or whatever staple that Target sells at some rip-off bodega, dirty supermarket or some fake au-natural store like Union Market.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 12:23 PM

OK, so if this Target is its busiest and most profitable store, why not hire more employees to re-stock those shelves or even pick up the inventory from the floors? Step into any other Target outside of NYC and they are clean and well-stocked. Why should we accept this?

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 12:24 PM

thi mall was obviously designed to serve the clientele north/east of flatbush

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 12:24 PM

"I like the mall. It is 100% better than the .....NOTHING....that was there previously."

"Blighted Brooklyn? Ridiculous. If you hate shopping at the mall so much, 12:09, stay the hell away from there!"

I don't have a big objection to having a mall at that location. I just would have f'ing appreciated it if it had been WELL-DESIGNED and a decent place to shop. It isn't.

The attitude that it's better than nothing speaks to a very defeatist position, as if it's just fine for a developer to build any pile of garbage, just because it's better than nothing. Brooklyn deserved much better, but now we are blighted by those hideous structures, basically forever.

I'd be happy to stay away from the mall, but as it happens, it's located at a key intersection. I don't have any option but to gaze upon its hideousity every time I travel through that area.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 12:25 PM

Everyone here is so self-righteous.

If you are so "in hate" with all of the "Chinese" merchandise that Target, and the other (quite mainstream) shops in Atlantic Terminal Mall sell, don't go there. It's obviously a successful store (THE most shopped at Target in the USA), it caters to a demographic of people who seem to LOVE shopping at it (its prices are good compared with other retailers in Brooklyn) and it has created some decent jobs, and made the lives of residents easier in a way because you can do a good deal of shopping without having to travel far.

Perhaps the things on their shelves are below you, as you're obviously well-heeled (reading real estate blogs in the middle of the day and all), but try to be optimistic. Think of what was in place of this mall before, then look ahead to how much of this type of stuff is coming to downtown Brooklyn over the next decade... It's too late to grouse.

11:59 is correct. Atlantic Avenue is not Fifth Avenue, but it's hardly ghetto. That word is so over used by absent-minded pinheads that they should reevaluate what they say, or think before you write. Buy your things at Takashimaya or Barneys if you're so much better than all of this.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 12:26 PM

Except 12:19, people buying the $5,000 Prada bag aren't usually spending their kids' college tuition doing so. I have huge sympathy for the poor. But I can have that sympathy and still think they make bad choices a lot of times with their finances. Pity for the poor doesn't really help them. Telling them how to do better does.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 12:27 PM

You DON'T have to accept it, 12:24. Just stay the hell out of the store and shop somewhere else. Problem solved.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 12:29 PM

burlington coat factory is ghetto

marshall's is ghetto

payless is ghetto

***
so chelsea is ghetto too? they have a burlington?

there is a payless at 90th and broadway. ghetto too?

you're a sicko and a racist.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 12:30 PM

Then keep your sensitive eyes closed, 12:25, and God willing, you'll be flattened by an eastbound bus.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 12:30 PM

People who want bargains should go to Costco. I go there myself. It is better stocked, and parking right outside the door in their big parking lot. It's on 4th Ave and 36th Street. Easier to get to than Atlantic Center, despite being further way, due to the heinous congestion around Atlantic.

There. I pointed out a better place to get bargains. Now in light of that, tell us again, why go to the badly stocked, crappy Target at Atlantic Center?

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 12:30 PM

but there's no Barney's in brooklyn!

thats what we're saying!!

why should this side of flatbush avenue have to go all the way to manhattan to shop while every retail development caters only to the other folk???

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 12:32 PM

"thi mall was obviously designed to serve the clientele north/east of flatbush"

Actually I'd say there are few people in Park Slope (south of here) who have NOT visited the center on occasion.

The comments on here are some of the most racist I have ever seen on brownstoner.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 12:32 PM

What's with this "ghetto" crap? Now any place that has a customer base that SEEMS to be primarily black or Latino is ghetto? Nice. Payless, Marshalls, Daffy's et al are in every mall in the US. Daffy's and Marshalls buy overrun and leftover stock from some of the most expensive brand names out there. They are popular with trendsetters and hip and happening people who like fashion for less. Hardly "ghetto". Pathmark - so unless you are selling overpriced, fancy, imported organic foods you are now "ghetto?" And Carver Bank - a bank started by African-Americans with branches all over the city, if not beyond, with millions in assets is "ghetto?"

Intellectually, I know this is all from someone who wants to start something, but that doesn't mean I have to read it and just ignore it. What utter crap. All of these "ghetto" businesses are laughing all the way to their fat bank vaults. What about you, Mr/Ms "Ghetto"?

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 12:33 PM

"Then keep your sensitive eyes closed, 12:25, and God willing, you'll be flattened by an eastbound bus."

What a d*ck.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 12:34 PM

i'd love a bed bath & beyond

plus a jcrew or banana republic

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 12:35 PM

is it true that houlihans went out of business?

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 12:35 PM

Clearly Brooklyn has changed because if people are so insulated from the Ghetto that they think that a store that sells (non-pastel) SUITS and a BANK are ghetto then obviously things are very very different. (unless of course by Ghetto you mean Black - which of course you couldnt mean b/c a anti consumerism, socially conscious liberal like yourself could never be racist - right?)

and 12:21 - Ratner was talking about Atlantic CENTER (which is where Marshalls, Pathmark, Circuit City et al are)- not TERMINAL (where the Target is) - and despite the footbridge are not the same, were built and different times, with different considerations. Most people will not argue that Atlantic Center is an architectural or commercial success.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 12:36 PM

Britney Spears is the most ghetto creature on the planet. These days the term ghetto has nothing to do with race and hasn't for years.

Come on you guys, get with it.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 12:38 PM

it amazing that all the apologists here will not concede that this is a pretty shitty mall

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 12:42 PM

12:27, I have a problem with people assuming that it is within their superior pervue to tell other people, especially lower income people, what to buy in a dept. store. How do you know they are spending their college tuition? How do you know that some status seeking social climber, trying to keep up with high fashion, is not? More than likely, the lower income person is keeping within their budget more than the upper income person. You don't know.

This is similar to reading about some higher income person's "disgust" that someone on welfare bought a steak for dinner as a treat for their birthday. How dare they have a luxury, they are poor!? Everyone on this planet deserves something nice every once in a while, especially those who have nothing. If poorer people don't shop at Target - Target, for God's sake, what do you want them to do? Go around in rags, sackcloth and ashes? Is that proper atonement for the crime of poverty?

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 12:45 PM

i hope a kennedy fried chicken opens up where houlihans was

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 12:47 PM

12:42 - compared to what??

For a mall the architecture is pretty good - maintains the street wall (expect for the plaza), the stores are successful and popular, it is convenient especially to mass transit (environmentally conscious) and the office tower is fully rented to a buldge bracket firm - BONY. The train station renovation seems to be coming along and will certainly be a vast improvement over anything that's been there in the last 50 years.

Would I prefer it if Target was better kept and less crowded - yes; Would I prefer a Crate and Barrell to Chucky Cheese - yes; Would I rather a Barney's Co-op to a Rockaway bedding - probably or a Chipolte to a McDonalds - sure BUT the whole world DOSENT CATER TO MY DESIRES - get used to it!

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 12:50 PM

12:50 i'm glad that at least you're mentioning stores that you'd prefer to see there....what i dont understand is why i get slammed as racist, eltitist, etc etc for wanting such establishments

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 12:54 PM

You all will get your high end shit soon enough. It's on it's way to Brooklyn. Urban Outfitters, Trader Joe's...they are trickling in.

Will Atlantic Center be another Short Hills Mall?

No.

You all need to have some sense of time and patience and of not needing everything YESTERDAY.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 12:56 PM

i think better shops are planned for the Fulton Mall cleanup initiative...that will be the shopping district for those who would prefer to stay away from AC

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 1:00 PM

funny thing is..Trader Joe's has lower prices than Pathmark...but ghetto shoppers will shop at ghetto stores while we will be labeled evil yuppie scum

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 1:01 PM

"The only stores that could possibly be considered at all low brow are Mandee's, McDonalds and Chucky Cheese."

Chucky Cheese is ghetto?! I had my 10th birthday there back in 1983 in Ann Arbor, Michigan :o

sg.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 1:01 PM

12:54 - you get slammed as a racist if you call a successful mall a failure and "ghetto" - when the only legitimate reason to do so is the color of a significant portion of the shoppers, or if you judge the spending habits of said constituency by knowing nothing more then what's in their cart at Target and what they look like; or if you spout off into some absolutely nonsensical rant about the dumb American consumer culture b/c a Target is successful.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 1:03 PM

No one says anyone is a racist for preferring a Chipolte over McDonald's. You can want whatever you want, and none of 12:50's suggestions are bad, either.

It is elitest, and more than slightly racist to insist that mainstream, national businesses are "ghetto", a loaded term that has absolutely nothing to do with Britney Spears, and more to do with Missy Elliot. Also loaded is this "East of Flatbush" phrase which just means lower income black and Latino Brooklyn. Last time I looked, everyone lived everywhere in Brooklyn.

I am so tired of this race and class war. Who would have thought it would be fought in the aisles of Target and Chucky Cheez?

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 1:05 PM

Access to transport from the street at this station has been poor since I moved to NY in 1987. Not the tortuous "can't find your way out" way it is now, but always pretty lousy. As far as the newer mall, I'm disappointed with the dead streetscape towards Fort Greene. I'ts very similar to what's going on with the Metrotech Buildings. The butts of the buildings face the neighborhood. The types of buildigs Ratner seems to build seem suburban and car oriented.

Shopping wise, the place seems like the typical NE mid-market mix. I think the stores get so way shopped out jut because Brookly doeesn't have enough mass retailing and there's appeal in the affordability. I've found that places like CostCo are also mobbed and only easy to get to if you have a car.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 1:05 PM

sg.

Lowbrow does not equal "ghetto" - but sorry Chucky Cheese isnt exactly a cultured and sophisticated establishment (don't feel bad I had many a B'day at a bowling alley)

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 1:05 PM

I've seen a couple of people on here ask why Brooklyn doesn't have nice, upscale big retail like Barneys and instead we get Target etc. Well, kids, look at the demographics. We've got a relatively small (if growing) number of wealthy people who could sustain a Barneys, and literally a million Brooklynites who can only afford Target & ilk. Retailers have reams of demographic data on which they base their location decisions, and if the demographics were right for downtown Brooklyn we'd have Anthropologie and Crate & Barrel there faster than you can say "Atlantic Yards Effect."

Don't like it? Well, maybe you need to think about how we've come to live in a city whose economy is so wildly unequal, where the gap between rich and poor is widening every day and the middle class is disappearing. Let's start talking about how to change that, and then we can stop complaining how beautiful nabes still have lousy retail.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 1:07 PM

1:03 i did post any of the "ghetto" statements . .

this topic has come up on a few ocassions on various blogs and whenever i even suggest some shops for brooklyn (like the ones mentioned in 12:50) i get the whole tired "go back to ohio" nonsense

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 1:07 PM

I'm disgusted to know I live around so many racist bigots.

While I don't particularly LOVE shopping at Atlantic Center, I do go to Target every once in a while.

And my dislike for the place has nothing to do with the people who shop there.

It simply has to do with the fact that it's not the nicest place to shop because of crowds, a pretty ugly space and all the traffic I have to cross to get there from PS.

It's interesting to hear such passive agressive racism on this thread.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 1:08 PM

this is very typical for new york today
shops cater to the rich or the poor

the middle once again is left out

yes i can do better than old navy but dont wantto shop at an overpriced "trendy" boutique either

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 1:12 PM

"Its damn ugly" - COMPARED TO WHAT

please cite a single mixed use (retail-office) complex built in the last 30 years that you think is attractive

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 1:13 PM

1:13 :

time warner center

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 1:14 PM

1:12 - just b/c people are black doesnt make them "poor" - Target, Bath and Body Works, Guitar Center, Men's Warehouse, Starbucks, Victoria Secret, DSW etc....are NOT FOR POOR PEOPLE. These stores cater to middle or upper middle class people. There isnt 1 store in Atlantic Terminal that caters to "poor people"

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 1:15 PM

There's a DSW in Union Square and one in Battery Park City.

I'm learning a lot today. Now I know to stay away from those ghetto areas.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 1:17 PM

I concede - Time Warner Center is more attractive then Atlantic Terminal

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 1:18 PM

Alright, alright I concede, the highest priced office/condo/hotel/mall complex in the country is more attractive then Atlantic Terminal - so let me make it a little harder/fairer - name 3

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 1:20 PM

Agreed, 1:15

It is totally a middle class shopping center. even upper middle class as most Target stores are in upper middle class suburban areas.

The ONLY reason people would think otherwise is if they associate dark faces with lower class.

Sad but true.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 1:21 PM

1:05:

I'm not sorry about having my birthday at CC. If it's "ghetto", it's only become so in the last 20 years...or maybe it's a East Coast thing.

Bowling alleys however...(j/k).

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 1:21 PM

i would LOVE a bowling alley in the new atlantic yards!

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 1:23 PM

thank you 1:14.

Also, while the choice of the word "ghetto" might be offensive, the real racists are the retail chains themselves, who maintain these particular stores as second-class outposts because their market/demographic studies have shown that minorities are their main customers.
Hence, shitty inventory, poor re-stocking, emphasis on loss prevention/anti-theft mechanisms, poor customer service, and the list goes on.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 1:24 PM

my favorite "mall" is actually an outdoor strip:

Americana in Manhasset (LI)

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 1:25 PM

12:50pm

Little known secret: Chipolte is owned by McDonald's. If the Brownstoner crowd knew that, Chipotle would be another "ghetto" establishment. Maybe they already know.

-sg.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 1:32 PM

sg: you probably shopped at Meijer, too. Now THAT'S what we need in brooklyn.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 1:32 PM

sg : many corporations own various "levels" of retail/dining

like BR/Gap/Old Navy
is there anything wring with saying u prefer BR over Old Navy? so what if their owned by the same entity?

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 1:37 PM

Is anyone on this board even remotely familiar with the standard industry-wide practice of racial profiling conducted by the retail sector? That's why the stores located in heavily minority areas will always be inferior in EVERY respect to the ones in whiter areas. It's that plain and simple. The more blacks and hispanics you have as clients, the crappier the store will be. It's the most common racist practice right up there with real estate redlining.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 1:40 PM

Interesting that no one has mentioned Borders Books & Music cancelling their Williamsburg Savings Bank lease. Granted BGI is going through a corporate overhaul currently with a relatively new CEO. But did they decide that the space was too difficult and/or expensive to rehab (the interior is landmarked so there are significant restrictions for any commercial tenant) or did they feel being next door to Atlantic Terminal and its tenants wasn't the right kind of upscale retail mix they were looking for?

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 1:41 PM

1:24, you just said the truest statement so far today.

Thank you.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 1:43 PM

hey 1:41

the apple store is considering one hanson place.

you conside them more ghetto than b&n?

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 1:45 PM

1:32:

Meijer's was great in the 70s when they had a child space where unattended children could play and watch television. Those were the days :p

Was Walmart (less best prices) before Walmart.

1:32 BR/Gap/Old Navy=3 card monty.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 1:46 PM

gwbrubaker must be a racist because he/she has taste

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 1:47 PM

I'd rather Filene's, Daffy's, Loehmans, etc over a Gap, Old Navy or Banana any day of the week.

You know what should open in downtown Brooklyn!!??

A CENTURY 21!!!!!!

They would make a killing.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 1:48 PM

gwbrubaker...

wanna open up that gay bar in atlantic terminal??

ha.

i'll be looking for ya at atlantic antic sunday...

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 1:51 PM

I agree that this is not worth getting so upset about. This mall looks exactly like any of the thousands of others across the U.S. Most of the stores are found nationwide and hardly cater to a so-called "ghetto" element. My wife and I are both college-educated and shop at Target every month for toilet paper, soap, paper towels, etc. The prices are cheaper and the products better than most discount stores we've tried. If you shop on a Sunday morning, you'll be checked out in five minutes. And if it offends you that much, shop elsewhere. Lord knows, there are plenty of other stores in NYC.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 1:52 PM

To shed some light on this rather absurd conversation...

Up until a few years ago, this area WAS GHETTO.

Whatever that means.

None of you wanted to live in this area and now all the sudden you do and you immediately want all the retail to bend over backwards for you?

The people (yes, lots of African Americans) who shop and keep this center alive lived in this neighborhood WAY BEFORE ANY OF YOU WANTED TO HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH IT!!!

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 1:59 PM

here's a way to fight traffic congestion into manhattan:

open a larger variety of stores in Brooklyn so that people who dont care for the crap presently in AT dont have to drive to "the city" for decent shopping

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 2:01 PM

Brenda - it is relatively simple, lack of competition.
While all the snobs around here bemoan these stores, the truth is they fill a huge need but since there is so few decent stores management doesn't need to be as vigilant in terms of keeping the stores well run. The stores hit their annual numbers w/o even trying.

And btw for the most part as bad as some of these national chains are, they are FAR FAR better then the vast majority of 'local' stores in similar markets - in price, service, cleanliness etc.... granted this is measuring from a low bar.

Now I am sure no one here wants a Wall Mart but should one open up nearby, I guarantee that Target would need to address some of its inventory issues for example in order to stay competitive.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 2:36 PM

sg - let me let you in on an even lesser known secret:

Chipolte was spun off from McDonalds almost 2yrs ago.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 2:38 PM

Bravo 1:24. It's true of all major chain stores in Brooklyn. Been to Home Depot or Lowes? Dirty, badly stocked, horrible service - of the likes you would never find in non-minority neighborhoods/regions. Go to Home Depot on Nostrand, then go Home Depot on 23rd.

Take this one step further: The City would never let Ratner build anything like this mall or AY in a non-minority neighborhood in the city. The perception is "It's OK, the blacks will be happy with whatever we give them. It doesn't have to be nice like it does for whites."

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 2:43 PM

2:38:

Oooo. You did a search! (Still got the name wrong, though.) Now you can respond appropriately when asked why Chipotle's is "high-class".

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 2:55 PM

1:24, 2:43, 1:43, 1:40, your elitist, subjective opinions are clearly not shared by the THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS of people who shop in those stores. Those people are white, black, Asian, Hispanic and middle class, upper middle class, lower middle class and low-income. That's Brooklyn. Retail chains seek to make money and establish themselves in markets where there are consumers ready to buy, plain and simple. YOU guys presume to speak for what black people want and like, and you're not even black (like me), plus you clearly have a subjective agenda. By 2:43's reasoning, why isn't AY being built in East New York, where there are certainly MORE black people than in downtown Brooklyn?? Since when was a Home Depot store - anywhere - aesthetically relevant, and who the hell cares when it's a dammned Home Depot?? If you don't like the stores being built in Atlantic Terminal, then STAY THE HELL OUT OF THEM. The people who want to shop there may not look like you want them to, but they can shop wherever they want, and it's extremely presumptive of you all to make assumptions about their intelligence versus your own.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 2:56 PM

Brenda,

They are that way because no one holds their feet to the fire to be any better. 2:36 is correct and gwbrubaker has a point. I honestly think that 1:24 is absolutely right as well. Corporate racism, understaffed store and ill trained employees, poor management, and basic contempt for customers all contribute to the mix. Add to that nasty customers, shoplifters, and people who are just pigs, and you have Atlantic Center. All national chains are much nicer outside of urban areas. You should see the Home Depot in Oneonta, NY - neat, overstocked aisles staffed with helpful friendly people who don't pretend they don't see you when you need help. Amazing.

I digress. But when a store like Target is the most successful branch in the chain, without doing anything but opening the doors in the morning, why bother to do more? I don't know why they don't realize that they could make even more money if they had better service, but unfortunately, there are few retail places in NY that do, especially on a large scale.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 3:01 PM

2:43 - what are you talking about - everything isnt racial.

Major chain stores (and minor local stores) are generally dirty, badly stocked and have horrible service in every part of NYC except for maybe the very very high end.

The Kmart's in Manhattan (Village and Midtown) are no nicer (worse actually) then the Target in Downtown Brooklyn.
The KeyFood in Cobble Hill is no nicer then the Pathmark in Atlantic Center.

Your comparison of Home Depots is not relevant since the Home Depot in Manhattan isnt really stocked (or shopped) like a "regular" Home Depot - and the Lowes in Brooklyn (in the same basic neighborhood btw) is actually pretty nice, very clean and well stocked.

The retail environment in NYC sucks and that is across virtually all demographics (again except the very high end) - $ for $ at almost all levels, suburban equivalent stores are nicer then the ones in NYC - weather serving black, white or hispanic.

And again, while people want to claim that the big bad evil coroporation is in some sort of racist conspiracy, the truth remains that 'local' merchants (even minority owned ones) seem to be running crappier, dirtier, less stocked stores with higher prices then anyone (and before you blame the chains for this too- this was the case long before any multi-national would ever even consider opening in a place like Brooklyn)

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 3:03 PM

so we all agree:

-this mall sucks
-blacks are the problem
-we need a pottery barn asap

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 3:24 PM

You did basically sum up what most people on this thread were trying to say, 3:24.

Quite disturbing.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 3:37 PM

Funny how everyone is indirectly saying what has been said only twice on this thread, but glossed over and ignored.

The retail industry has a system in place, a standard racist business practice, in which they don't bother to keep certain stores up-to-par with others due to demographic studies of the composition of their MAIN client base. Hence, the Atlantic Center Target, Old Navy, etc., are MUCH SHITTIER IN EVERY ASPECT than their counterparts in the burbs. It's that freaking simple. And they still make their money because they KNOW THERE IS NO COMPETITION AROUND THEM and that people will still patronize their substandard "ghetto" versions of the store. I'm not the racist, the corporate retail offices are. That is why, Brenda, the SAME EXACT stores in Nassau County are better than the ones in Atlantic Center.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 3:57 PM

3:57 nails it

i'm still amazed that so many people wont even concede the fact that this mall is crappy?

i mean, you can debate to the why and how and what else could/should be there, etc

but to not even admit that this a very low quality shopping center??

white liberal guilt run amook

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 4:09 PM

3:57 is one of the most virulent types of racists, viewing all through his hazily conceived lens of elitism, and seeking to characterize certain neighborhoods and retail establishments, all according to his (or her) own subjective viewpoint.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 4:09 PM

All this talk about 'ghetto' shopping and not one mention about The Children's Place, THE most ghetto apparel store (and corporation) on the face of the earth?!?!

But moving on.... Brooklyn (esp. this area in discussion) ain't the Upper East Side, folks. Isn't that what brought us all to live in Brooklyn in the first place??

Regardless, that's what brought me to Boerum Hill. And I'm staying put, Atlantic Yards be damned.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 4:11 PM

4:09 you are so off the mark.

While the mall may be crappy by your standards, the purpose of any mall or retail establishment is to make money.

The Target is one of the top 3 money makers of the ENTIRE CHAIN.

The Daffy's is also in the top 5 of the ENTIRE CHAIN.

As is the DSW.

While it might be crappy to you, apparently not everyone agrees.

I personally think your attitude is crappy. Does that make it true?

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 4:16 PM

Hey 4:09, I'm not white, I'm black, and I think it's about on par for a shopping center. It has some things I want to buy, and when it's convenient I go there. I'm not looking for an architectural or aesthetic masterpiece, I'm looking for a STORE, and I'm glad it's an option in the neighborhood. Now you can try to figure out a way to insult me.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 4:22 PM

Hey Z, tell your 2-month old to shut up!

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 4:23 PM

3:57 - Economics 101 would tell you that it is the "no competition around them" that allows stores to provide lower quality service, worse selection and higher prices rather then some imagined "racist corporate policy".

The chain stores I have been in around NYC are almost all run with staffs and (at least front line) managers being people of color - do these employees get a memo that says - "hey since we serve a large black & Hispanic clientle, you dont have to stock the shelves, clean up throughly or help out the customers"
the only premise for your statement is some kooky conspiratorial agenda, with no basis in fact.

I am sure there are racist feelings among some corporate managers/officers of some retail chains (and local shops) that feels that its not worth making it nicer for "them" but thankfully in today's society $ speaks way louder then a few idiots racism and if there was more competition then $ would force even the most racist individual/corporation to improve (or go out). However the idea that this bad retailing in NYC is a policy or by design tells me you have no experience within corporate america (or even small buisness america)

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 4:33 PM

I used to manage a retail store in Manhattan. Retail in NYC is TOUGH. I feel for the young men and women (mostly of color) who work at Target. It's a bitch of a job. Minimum wage pay; lousy benefits; a schedule that's constantly changing in spite of the boss knowing your class schedule, family needs etc; cranky, rude customers; a centralized buying office that doesn't understand why your store sells certain merchandise really well and other things not at all (so the customers are always moaning about what's not in stock) + supply-chain models that don't work for the smaller square footage/high turn of an urban store; shop-lifting (yes, it's a HUGE problem perpetrated by people of all ages and races in NYC); issues with shelf-damaged stock. I could go on and on. No wonder they're miserable.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 4:36 PM

"The chain stores I have been in around NYC are almost all run with staffs and (at least front line) managers being people of color -

This is the case in many big cities....Dubai...Buenos Aires....London...

You will find most workers in these establishments to be minorities.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 4:37 PM

4:16 -- sorry, you're not a winner. try again. you can't seriously be arguing that the atlantic target isn't empirically grosser than its suburban cousins. so, in order for you to be right, you'd have to be arguing that the people who shop at the Atlantic Target prefer that grossness to a Target that is clean and well-stocked. do these shoppers prefer dirt? do they prefer inconvenience? do they prefer lack of selection? doubt it. so what's the point of your posting?

i'm just one of many people who shop at target because, yes, it has good prices on a (at least theoretically) wide selection of products. i can tell you, i'd go there much more often and spend more time, and more money, if it didn't suck so bad. i'm definitely not alone in that sentiment (as this thread confirms). Maybe Target's corporate department needs to do the research to figure out the profits it's losing by having such undoubtedly CRAPPY standards for its urban centers.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 4:44 PM

"Hey 4:09, I'm not white, I'm black, and I think it's about on par for a shopping center."

You have got to be kidding.(no, I'm not 4:09, haven't responded yet on this discussion) On par???!! I'm black too, and ANYONE who has stepped foot outside of Brooklyn can see that the stores at Atlantic Center are TERRIBLE. No if ands, or buts about it. They do not come close to stores in Long Island, upstate, anywhere else.

Ever been to Green Acres, or Kings Plaza? As bad as Kings Plaza is, that is still considered a mall. Atlantic Terminal was DELIBERATELY built that way. It's the "anti-mall" mall. Ratner and his cronies were designing a building that was suppose to be as aesthetically UNAPPEALING, UNINVITING, and UNWELCOME as possible. They didn't want the populace (blacks and latino youths) hanging out there, sitting around. They just wanted you to come in, shop, and go. They don't want to serve the population, just take their money and tell them to scram. And they know people will come because there is a need for retail, no matter how bad the service or offensive it is to their clientèle.

Stores are really bad too, and operate in the same manner. Retail sucks, it is racist, and minorities are trained to put up with this crap.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 4:50 PM

Z, your whimpering kid couldn't hit the broad side of a big, red Target-store "T." So let her take her best shot.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 4:51 PM

Yeah 4:50, except THOUSANDS of people shop there every week. All of those people wouldn't be going there if they felt the place was "offensive." This is NYC - there are a MYRIAD of retail options. Furthermore, I DO see black and Latino kids in and around the mall, so I don't know what the hell you're talking about. And if you hate the place so much and it looks so bad, how come you are THERE enough to comment on the clientele? One more thing - I don't WANT to hang around some goddamned mall. I go the mall (when I go) to SHOP, not hang out. There are other places I can go for that. I DO want to "come in, shop, and go." That's EXACTLY what I want to do.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 4:58 PM

Well, 4:58, if you want to settle for crap, dirty stores, lousy service, that's your business. The rest of us want better, expect better, and know we can get better, if we demand it (which unfortunately we're not). And just because the masses are going there, doesn't mean they like or enjoy the business anymore than anyone else. The demand for affordable stuff is high, and people put up with alot to get it.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 5:06 PM

Yeah, complaining on Brownstoner is super proactive, 5:06.

Demand away.

Wuss.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 5:14 PM

OK, 5:06, I will stay here and shop in Brooklyn stores (including Atlantic Terminal) and you can take your ass out to Green Acres. Make sure you and stay the hell away from Atlantic Terminal, so your tender sensibilities aren't disturbed. OR, you can get yourself a sign, go out to Atlantic Terminal, and "demand" a new mall that looks "nice" to you and your New Jersey-and-Long-Island-mall-loving friends. Until then, stop trying to denigrate and insult the people who shop at those stores because they feel they suit their store suits their needs.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 5:18 PM

4:51 -- all the 2-month olds in Park Slope shooting poop at Target *still* doesn't explain how CRAPPY that Target is

5:18 -- your deliberate insistence on missing the point is bewildering. it's not about denigrating or insulting the people who shop at Target. the point, rather, is that Target itself should fix its own problems, and could thereby make a lot more money. how could making the place better possibly harm the people who already think the store suits their needs?

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 5:56 PM

so we agree

-this mall is perfect
-anyone who doesnt think so is a racist
-high sales = great store , no need to consider that dense population and little competition play a role. at all
-architecture is unimportant in large public urban spaces

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 6:03 PM

The point of the original post was about how long this would take. Any insight on this would be helpful. From my perspective, it seems like they only have 2-4 construction workers working on it on any given day.

What is the best way to prod the MTA to speed this up?

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 6:21 PM

I like how comments ceased after 6:21's question. hee hee

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 7:30 PM

Worst. Thread. Ever.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 7:34 PM

Someone should forward this thread to Target's Headquarters. It might be informative.

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 8:32 PM

black people

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 8:33 PM

there's a target in brooklyn?

where? i want to go!

Posted by: guest at September 28, 2007 8:42 PM

if the comments section of this thread is any indication of brownstoner readers, it appears we are ALL black!!!!

Posted by: guest at September 29, 2007 11:50 AM

6:03pm sums it up perfectly.

The only reason anybody goes to the Atlantic Center's Target is NO competition. Love how the city handed over Ratner's exclusive lock on retail in that part of Brooklyn. Which failed. And now they're doing it again.

Hey Bloomberg, remember competition is good. Your own Republican party is the biggest champion of competition of all. So what happened?

Posted by: guest at September 30, 2007 11:17 AM

hey idiot...i mean 11:17.

bloomberg left the republican party. where the hell have you been?

oh and most republicans say to stay out of government as much as possible, but you seem to be saying that you want them to hold your hand to get you a new target.

which is it?

Posted by: guest at September 30, 2007 12:19 PM

Thank you Mr. Ratner's recpetionist at 12:19.

The only explanation for all the vitrol against criticism of Atlantic Center, criticism that the entire Brooklyn community agrees on, even those that shop there, is that Ratner's minions are once again patrolling Brownstoner and launching nasty attacks on anyone who points out the truth.

As for your moronic comments, 12:19, Bloomberg makes all his money on Wall Street. Translation = fiscal conservative. Does't matter what party he claims to belong to for convenience in any give year. And yes exactly, we're saying government should meddle as little as possible. Which means they should NOT be handing Ratner all of downtown Brooklyn on a silver platter, NOT allowing competitive bids!! And NOT allowing competing businessmen to open large retail centers near Ratner's Fulton Mall or Atlantic Center. Congratulations, you have managed to debate yourself into defeat all by yourself.

Posted by: guest at September 30, 2007 12:32 PM

hey head of develop don't destroy...

the party's over.

it's a done deal.

maybe if you all weren't such a psychotic bunch of loons, you would have had a chance.

bring on AYYYYYYYYY

Posted by: guest at September 30, 2007 12:51 PM

Hey right back at you, Ratner employee at 12:51, you proved exactly what I was saying in my post at 12:32. By the way, I'm not with Develop Don't Destroy, and I think those people were idiots who blew it.

We KNOW it's a done deal. Snnoooooze. That debate is over.

Now your challenge is to complete construction without making a complete mess of it with huge delays. Then convince wealthy yuppy liberals (i.e. very picky) to buy your crappy AY luxury condos and shop in your crappy AY stores. When most won't want to live in a place that has such negative stigma. So good luck with all that. You got a big job ahead of you.

Posted by: guest at September 30, 2007 1:02 PM

you've got a pretty big job too...

move out of mommy's house and try to afford a place on your own anywhere close to ay.

yeah...bigger project than you though...uh huh...

Posted by: guest at September 30, 2007 3:45 PM

You really think Ratner pays his assistants enough to work on Sundays?

Think again buddy.

Go enjoy Atlantic Antic and have a beer.

Posted by: guest at September 30, 2007 4:36 PM

Did you know you can get a $5.00 HAND JOB at Atlantic Center?

just go into the men's room at Target and ask for Ratner's she-male mother.

Posted by: guest at September 30, 2007 9:21 PM

you paid 5 bucks for that?

Posted by: guest at September 30, 2007 11:27 PM

What does "ghetto" mean. That is such a freakishly out of touch term to use.

Posted by: guest at October 1, 2007 11:17 AM

and I think those people were idiots who blew it.

We KNOW it's a done deal. Snnoooooze. That debate is over.

It is becoming rather unclear who is more of an idiot on here.
It's over? Really?
party? really?
Senior citizens being kicked out of their home of 40 years is a freakin party?
DDDB blew it? Um can you define what you even mean by this? Blew what exactly? You are sitting inside on a beautiful day telling other people they are "ghetto," or "blew it" or things are "over."
You are over, you blew it. You are so ghetto, you don't even know where you stand on any issue or belief what so ever.

So GO THE F OUTSIDE. GET some sun while you can.

Posted by: guest at October 1, 2007 11:20 AM

Will the real racist and the real perfect saint PLEASE STAND UP?

This board, as usual has deteriorated - is there anyone out there who can converse like humans?
ANYONE?? ANYWHERE?

Let's admit, we all have some superiority and inferiority complex going on here...so talking about RATner's hideous complex in sweeping generalizations only makes us all look pretty poorly designed as well!!!

Posted by: guest at October 1, 2007 11:28 AM

RATNER...BUILD IT HIGHER!!!!!!!

Posted by: guest at October 1, 2007 11:55 AM

Wrong again, 3:45pm, as you are in every single post. I'm a homeowner. House not apartment.

Posted by: guest at October 1, 2007 12:18 PM

2:41, why don't you stop judging and go tie your fucking balls in a knot?

Posted by: guest at October 2, 2007 8:37 PM

I spoke to a construction worker there this morning who said that they ought to be done in 6 months or so. So I'd say 9-12 months.

Posted by: guest at February 25, 2008 5:16 PM