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August 20, 2007
House of the Day: 1087 Prospect Place
This double-duplex house on a dead-end block of Prospect Place in Crown Heights just hit the market this weekend and won't have its first open house until next Sunday. Unfortunately, there aren't any interior photos up yet. (Update: Photos are up now but aren't very conclusive.) The listing references the fact that the house (which is one of four identical ones from 1912) is on a "Model Block" from the 1960s, which, combined with the fact that it is bounded at one end by Brower Park, makes for a quiet residential vibe. Also, since this was originally designed as two separate duplexes, chances are that they work nicely as such. One potential negative: There are projects a block away. We're unaware of any recent comps —and have no idea what the interior's like—so your guess is as good as ours about whether the asking price of $849,000 is reasonable. Perhaps someone has been inside?
1087 Prospect Place [Corcoran] GMAP P*Shark
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Comments
Brower Park has roaming off leash pit bulls, loud music at all hours, and a double shooting a few days ago. The Albany Projects are considered the worst in the city, as told to me by a cop. Enjoy!
Posted by: guest at August 20, 2007 1:44 PM
I think this proves that not all historic buildings are attractive.
Posted by: guest at August 20, 2007 1:53 PM
looks scary.
Posted by: guest at August 20, 2007 2:00 PM
If they're trying to sell the place, should they really be showing that kitchen and bath? Yikes!
Posted by: GHB at August 20, 2007 2:06 PM
I haven't been inside 1087, but I own a home on the street. Despite being a block away from the Albany Houses, it is indeed mostly quiet, and project "issues" tend to stay in the projects. The street is tree-lined and well-lit, with street lamps in front of every house. Some teen-agers tend to hang around the block, and there's a homeless guy who is ALWAYS around (he will sweep a homeowner's sidewalk for a handout), but I've been here since 2001 and haven't had any trouble. The biggest problem is improper drainage on the block, leading to flooding problems for some homes during heavy downpours. This is particularly true for homes at the west end of the block, including the one listed here. My neighbor who owns the easternmost of these four connected homes says the building indeed functions nicely as two three-bedroom duplexes. Guest 1:44 is poorly informed. I, along with many of my neighbors, walk my dog in Brower Park every day. There's a great level of cooperation, and a multitude of different dog breeds including pit bulls. Some dogs are off leash, some are on, everyone gets along and no one gets bit. It's true there was a shooting there this past weekend, but that would not make this park unique in the city, as there have been shootings at various locations all across New York City. Generally, the park is safe, and my home has appreciated to more than double what I purchased it for. I'm happy.
Posted by: guest at August 20, 2007 2:06 PM
seems to me that anyone who's willing to pay 850k for shootings, homeless people, loitering teenagers, off leash pit bulls, flooding and close proximity to one of the more disfunctional projects needs to re-examine their priorities.
850K is A LOT of money still, i hope you realize.
this is one of those places that, with a few more shootings and another few slips in the market, could be worth 400K in a couple years.
Posted by: guest at August 20, 2007 2:11 PM
regarding comps, another double duplex in the area recently went into contract:
http://www.corcoran.com/property/listing.aspx?Region=NYC&ListingID=1020182&ohDat=
the asking price was $925k... not sure what the sale price is
Posted by: kayemell at August 20, 2007 2:13 PM
I have to say, I agree with 2:11.
850K is a lot of money. In two years it could be worth 950K, or it could be worth 450K, which means the sale would most likely not cover the outstanding mortgage.
Posted by: guest at August 20, 2007 2:19 PM
Well, no, it's not going to lose half its value. Come on.
However, it may not pay off as an investment for a few years. But since CH is still a "fringe" neighborhood, a below-ask offer might nab it. Depending on the rent roll, could be a tidy source of income. If you put down 50%, took out a 400 k mortgage at 6.5 pct, and the rent roll was 4k a month, you'd be looking at income of $1,500 give or take after expenses. Again, this is for an experienced landlord. I don't see this as a private home.
I have to say, though, from the pictures a gut reno wouldn't be out of line. It looks like there's a LOT of layers of paint and plaster.
Also, digging that old sink.
Posted by: guest at August 20, 2007 2:33 PM
This is a beautiful block with mostly old time residents. The park is definitely an asset in my book. I love this area but I live a few blocks further up and don't live right next to the projects... so not sure how to assess the price in that respect.
Posted by: guest at August 20, 2007 2:35 PM
Since so many people say New York is not that different than other places around the country (I tend not to fully agree) but for argument's sake, let's pretend it is.
In that case, when I see a property like this I say to myself...let's suppose New York gets bad again like it was in the 80's and early 90's. What would a place like this fetch? How about what would a place like this in Philadelphia go for? A fairly nice city with some problems...
I'd say 450K.
So since this is New York, we have to add on a little extra, so I say 650K.
Posted by: guest at August 20, 2007 2:42 PM
Hey 2:11 and 2:19, you probably would have said that about Park Slope back in the 1970s and 1980s. $850K may be high, but don't kid yourselves - you're not going to see a significant decline in values here no matter WHAT happens in the marketplace. Get real.
Posted by: guest at August 20, 2007 2:53 PM
you know what, 2:53....
your attitude that new york real estate never goes down is doing a real disservice to a lot of people.
and i am a homeowner.
saying that a not very attractive house next to a project in a dangerous area has no potential to go down in value is VERY ignorant.
Posted by: guest at August 20, 2007 3:00 PM
I don't know anything about the area but I really dig the vintage kitchen/bath. I would keep that kitchen sink personally. To each his own!
Posted by: guest at August 20, 2007 3:19 PM
what's up the picture? it looks like the neighboring building has been chopped off as if a bomb went off?
Posted by: guest at August 20, 2007 3:43 PM
I love it. Someone who actually LIVES on the block writes in and says despite some problems that have nothing to do with either the projects or the park, they love their home. Everyone else, who has no clue even as to where it is, let alone it's worth, has a rollicking discussion about how dangerous it is, and how it will be worth half its worth. Give me a break.
This block is like a one block hidden enclave. Almost all of the houses have flower boxes and front gardens, both sides of the street have mature trees shading the block, and it is QUIET. The section of Brower Park where the block intersects is not noisy, as it is not near where the ball courts or picnic areas are. The other side of the block, where the Albany Houses are is practically a park itself, as the housing is set halfway into the block. People do not drift to this block. The cement seating areas in the center of the block break up the parking, limit how many cars can be on the block, and the limited access creates a haven. These are facts, not opinion based on fear and contempt for living in the hood.
The shooting in the park is an aberration, not the norm. Do people not live near Central Park because of shootings or muggings? I walk here often, sit and read, and have never seen pit bulls running lose, and have never felt afraid. Neither have the Orthodox Jewish kids and their teachers who use the playground every day, and who often play pick up basketball with local black kids. Didn't know that could happen in the hood, eh?
For someone looking for an old house with old house charm on a pretty block, with a ready made income property attached that doesn't have to be subdivided, you could certainly do worse. Not everyone is turned off by old walls and old sinks, they seek it out, and prefer it. (I love the sink, and have one similar to it.) This house will only increase in value, and living on this block will be an envied position, which it should be now, it really is lovely. This won't be far down the road, either.
Posted by: Brower Park at August 20, 2007 3:51 PM
3:43, that's the side of a tree making the building look chopped off. There are so many trees on the block, I would imagine it's hard to get a good shot of the house without having part of a tree getting in the way.
Posted by: Brower Park at August 20, 2007 3:55 PM
Yep, I'm 2:06, I own a home on the block, its value has shot up since I've been here, and I love it. 3:51 sticks to the facts, and is right on the money. Everyone uses the park and gets along well together, and the block is a beautifully shady and quiet jewel. But hey, DON'T buy here. No problem! We're going to be quite OK.
Posted by: guest at August 20, 2007 4:01 PM
It would only make sense that those living in the neighborhood would boost it, if for no other reason than for fear of declining home values.
Just like the people who come on here and make Bed Stuy seem like Pleasantville.
Despite what some of you believe, a lot of us who live in Brooklyn do walk around, explore and do have an idea of other neighborhoods besides our own.
Given that, 850K for this neighborhood is appalling. I don't care how nice your block or the trees are.
This particular area (maybe not this STREET!) is similar to parts of Philly where you can't give a home away for a $1.
Posted by: guest at August 20, 2007 4:05 PM
Please folks put down the crack pipes. Real Estate is finished!
You can flame me all you want. Have fun, shields up!
Posted by: guest at August 20, 2007 4:14 PM
Yeah, a couple of people who love their neighborhood are going to turn the world on its axis, and cause the fortunes of real estate to rise and fall. My God, the POWER!
If they decide to give away Crown Heights properties for a dollar each, I'll be first on line, will take everything I can get, and be as happy as Donald Trump at a beauty pagent. Are you nuts? This is one of the most beautiful areas of Brooklyn, bar none, and I will take it, warts and all. The city is not going to bother to landmark a slum with no hope of redemption. Why would they?
Don't strain yourselves, if it's so awful, please just leave us alone to enjoy our properties, which will continue to rise in value. Mine is already worth 3 times what I paid, despite having barely renovated yet. I have no worries that my property will devalue, nor would any purchase in Crown Heights North.
Posted by: Brower Park at August 20, 2007 4:35 PM
4:05 I dont think you know what you are talking about. I just moved to this neighborhood with my family from Manhattan and we love it. This neighborhood is really changing. A white architect moved in just next door. We have a Japanese across the street. Another neighbors a few doors down are middle class Mexicans. I love to old timers too - very friendly , respectful and they really make you feel you belong to a community. Crown Heights sure aint what it used to be.
Posted by: guest at August 20, 2007 4:37 PM
Yes I agree, real estate is over and everyone talking about how these types of places can't ever lose half their value are either realtors trying to keep people smiling and keep buying, or dreamers. If a house can double its value in 2 years, it can also lose that same value in 2 years. I mean what happened to double it? Did it get gold plated with platinum plumbing? No. The property didn't change at all, just the hype of the city. It's all driven by foreign investors buying into the hype and jacking prices. It can and will come down eventually, sooner if this year's wall street bonuses go to crap or if the country does go into a recession. We are not isolated. South Florida said exactly the same thing last year. Their prices more than halved, some are 1/3 of what they were last year. I know, as I am looking into buying a vacation condo there now and just looked at the same condo for $180K that was $550 last year and still hasn't sold even at the new price. So you dreamers keep on dreaming, and when your house is worth half of what you paid for it keep on telling yourself that it is just on paper. No matter what professional analyst you ask, they are all saying NYC real estate prices are unsustainable at the current levels.
Posted by: guest at August 20, 2007 4:47 PM
I'm not saying no one should move to this neighborhood. I'm saying that spending 850K on a place in this neighborhood (and needing a gut reno) is absolutely ridiculous.
When the markets correct over the next 2 years, those that paid a million dollars to live in a very marginal neighborhood are the first to suffer.
What IF demand doesn't live up to what the mayor predicts? Crown Heights will not be on the radar of those moving from Manhattan any longer. To not realize this means your head is in the sand.
Keep buying. Just make sure you don't overpay.
Posted by: guest at August 20, 2007 4:53 PM
I bought my home because I wanted to be a homeowner for over 20 years before it became a reality. I wanted an old house, dripping with period details, as I love old walls, old sinks, woodwork, tiles, high ceilings, and the works. I wanted to walk in my house every day and appreciate the craftsmanship that went into it, the legacy of anonymous craftspeople long dead, but still appreciated. My house has some of that detail, and for now, I am content.
I grew up in an older house than this, so I know they need constant upkeep, and that anything that can go wrong will, and that the house can suck up money like a sponge. While I am appreciative that my property has tripled in value, I really don't think about it that often. I wanted a home in a part of Brooklyn that I love, and that is what is most important to me. It is my home first, an investment second.
Because it is my home, I will work to improve it and the neighborhood it sits in. I am proud of the history and beauty of my neighborhood, and proud of the people who kept it together when the city gave up. Why is it so difficult for some people to give those people, and myself and other satisfied homeowners and neighbors, our due for making wise choices that we are happy with?
People will always need a place to live. People who want to live in an historic home will continue to come here. The neighborhood will evolve and make room, and hopefully what is good will stay and what is not will leave. Real estate trends will come and go, and prices may go up and down a little bit, but I do not think that this neighborhood will fall back into the pits of 40 years ago, and I don't think prices will fall significantly anytime in our lifetimes, unless something truly horrific happens, God forbid. The doomsayers can downgrade Crown Heights all they want. It will be nothing but sound and fury, signifying nothing (but regret and jealousy.)
Posted by: Brower Park at August 20, 2007 5:14 PM
Nice oversimplification, 4:47, except you neglected to mention that NYC suffers from a huge lack of affordable housing in various categories, which is why so many Manhattanites have moved to Brooklyn, and one of the reasons why prices have skyrocketed. Addtionally, many of Manhattan workers have come to realize it's more convenient to live in Brooklyn than one of the far-away suburbs. The factors behind the rise in home prices in the region is a complex picture that can't be easily summarized as "hype." Smart professional people don't make informed choices to move into and renovate previously under-utilized homes and neighborhoods based solely on "hype" and "foreign investors." New York City is NOT South Florida (or Philly for that matter).
Posted by: guest at August 20, 2007 5:24 PM
So I'm assuming you aren't old enough to remember all the "hype" in the 50's, 60's, 70's about the suburbs to cause a MAJOR flight of residents from New York City?
You don't think that's possible again?
I certainly do.
Posted by: guest at August 20, 2007 5:31 PM
Anything is possible. But is it likely? I wouldn't be willing to bet on it, let's put it that way. But hey, let's wait 10 years. I'll still be here to tell you about how the value of my Crown Heights has progressed, and you can tell me about rates in the place where you have a home. Meanwhile, stop trying to diss my neighborhood.
Posted by: guest at August 20, 2007 5:45 PM
Funny how the same was said about Harlem and look at it now. Oh the houses arent worth it, look at the area, so much crime,projects,etc. Well alot of people overlooked that and now own some beautiful homes in Harlem.
Posted by: guest at August 20, 2007 6:02 PM
...I'm still drooling over last week's open house picks at 404 Stuyvesant Avenue.
If I only could afford it. Anyone have the latest scoop on that one.
Posted by: guest at August 20, 2007 6:05 PM
people still say it about harlem. maybe not as many people, but lots have no desire to live there.
and east harlem ain't no walk in the park.
even in 2007.
Posted by: guest at August 20, 2007 6:06 PM
Ah, but guest, this is not the world of the 50's through 70's. One of the major factors in the flight to the suburbs was racism and fear of black people. While the crap spewed both overtly and covertly on this board by some of our less enlightened Neanderthals to the contrary, the world is a different place. Accomplished, educated, middle class as well as wealthy black people (while always existant, even back then) are no longer an anomoly in today's society. Our mere presence does not engender mass white flight any longer.
Secondly, this is the twilight of the age of petroleum. People are no longer willing to spend a fortune on gas to commute, and are looking to stay close to jobs, as well as to enjoy the cultural amenities that exist in cities. More and more people also want to raise their families in areas of cultural diversion. This is a much more global society than 50 years ago, or even 30 years ago. Communism is practically dead, and enlightened people want to be able to sample the cultures of the world, not isolate ourselves from the differences of the "other".
These may seem to be minor causal effects in the rise of cities, but they are in the whole picture, part of the reason that cities are again in vogue. Of course, all things are cyclical, but I don't think those cycles will be turning rapidly anytime in our lifetimes.
Posted by: Brower Park at August 20, 2007 6:24 PM
the price is an insult.
Posted by: guest at August 20, 2007 6:51 PM
I have been driving through Crown Heights about twice a week for several months now for work, and have been awe struck by the beauty of this nabe. I had no idea such lovely houses with nice lawns were there. One thing that holds true with NYC real estate: areas with great housing stock always come back, and once they start coming back they don't stop. This area is already coming into its own again, and with good reason. This area is stunning.
Buy a house that you can afford, and you should have no fear of falling prices. If these prices fall, so will all others.
Posted by: dt at August 20, 2007 6:59 PM
It looks like a better investment deal than something in the south slope that's half the size and even more money, honestly. Has good bones. It's overpriced yes, and neighborhoods like this will suffer when the market corrects, but all in all, compared to some things on this blog, it's a good deal.
Posted by: guest at August 20, 2007 7:10 PM
Doesn't it make sense that a house would cost $850k in Crown Heights if it costs 3x that in Clinton Hill and 6x that in Brooklyn Heights and 10 to 20x that in Manhattan? Crown Heights is very far away from Bagdad or Afghanistan.
Posted by: guest at August 20, 2007 7:22 PM
What you don't understand is that black people de-value a neighborhood in the eye of a racist; and since most appraisers base value on color hire a few white people to walk around your house, and one or two on the inside (pictures on the wall too) and you can almost double the value of your house on that appraisal. Try it, it worked for me.
Posted by: guest at August 20, 2007 7:34 PM
What would Cosmo Kramer say about this? See 4:05pm
Posted by: guest at August 20, 2007 7:48 PM
What would Cosmo Kramer say about this? See 2:11 or 4:05pm
Posted by: guest at August 20, 2007 7:52 PM
Sorry for the double post.
Posted by: guest at August 20, 2007 7:53 PM
The nabe has its strengths and weaknesses. I've lived here for over five years. Different people will weight them according to their respective worldview. But, anybody that ignores affordability will be surprised by what happens to prices. In the new (what's old is new again!) mortgage world, who will be able to afford a $850K house? Even with the income from a rental, I think you are looking at households making over $150K/year with $160K in a cash for a downpayment. That's way above the median income and cash assets of New Yorkers. The recent price run ups were mostly due to easy mortgage money, not the realization that there are nice old houses here. The run up in prices in Crown Heights has been mostly from "native" buyers from the Chassidic an African American communities, not exiles from Manhattan, although there have been some new blood moving in. Amother point, people leaving Manhattan for more space, etc., will always weigh the suburbs with Brooklyn in making a housing decision. The recent housing boom made the whole tri-state area very expensive. That will also change.
Posted by: guest at August 20, 2007 8:26 PM
i want to buy 8:26 a beer.
btw - i live directly accross the street from this property.
Posted by: guest at August 20, 2007 9:15 PM
Let's see if the home sells and at what price.
Posted by: guest at August 20, 2007 9:43 PM
Brower Park is a total dump. Not even worth getting worked up about.
Posted by: White and Proud in PLG at August 20, 2007 10:53 PM
Everyone, please note that none of the posts made in my name above are genuine. They are all forgeries.
It looks like someone's mommy left them unsupervised again.
Posted by: Brower Park at August 21, 2007 7:49 AM
I am one of the transplants from Manhattan and we love our house. And it was affordable and now we have money to renovate it slowly and still go on vacation...
Posted by: CrownGardener at August 21, 2007 9:13 AM
House does not need a gut reno. Needs some carpets pulled up, new appliances and some upgrading to kitchens and baths. Structure is sound, mechanicals said to have been upgraded recently (newish boiler & hot water heater, roof looks good).
People who make statements like that ("needs gut reno") are completely ignorant. Go buy yourself a glass condo in Manhattan.
Posted by: guest at August 28, 2007 9:37 AM
$815,000 and still no takers
Posted by: guest at November 20, 2007 2:30 PM
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