House of the Day: 224 Washington Avenue

Absolutely! As we all know, Clinton Hill is now objectively the preferred neighborhood of Brooklyn! Everybody says so!

Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 1:25 PM

Reasonable for this unreasonable market.

Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 1:28 PM

I'd like to call the top of the market: it was yesterday. Buy a $2mm house in a still so-so area with crap schools today and regret it later.

Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 1:36 PM

You will not regret buying Clinton Hill ever

Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 1:40 PM

clintonhillhoya: of course you are right. i don't know why people keep using the issue of schools to bash a real estate listing. don't people realize that amount you pay on your place for being in a "good" school district is likely to be at least equal to the cost of private school. plus, there are of course--gasp!--people who don't have kids as well as people whose kids have already finished highschool.

Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 2:12 PM

"You will not regret buying Clinton Hill ever"
Famous last words.

Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 2:13 PM

In three years, that house will be worth 1.2 million AFTER has been renovated.

Real estate prices have trippled in the last ten years all over NYC. A fifty percent decline is to be expect given the upcomming recession and demise of the current mortgage system as we know it.

Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 2:25 PM

The reason why people talk about school districts in which houses are located is because it is critically related to home values - and always has been here and all over the country. Of course it is not relevant to some buyers, but it still has a huge effect on house value to say you're in ps 321 district or ps 29. If there are not good public schools you will be cutting substantially into potential buyers. I would wager that the majority of people buying brownstones in Brooklyn are people planning on raising families in them sooner or later. And yes, many many people who buy million+ houses send their kids to public schools - often they justify buying the expensive house in a place with decent public schools because they won't have to pay for private school. Finally, there are VERY few private schools in Brooklyn - even if people want to send their kids to private, there are not going to be able to and will have to fall back on public schools.

Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 3:08 PM

3:08-"Finally, there are VERY few private schools in Brooklyn - even if people want to send their kids to private, there are not going to be able to and will have to fall back on public schools."

There are enough private schools in Brooklyn that kids travel from Manhattan to attend them. And there are many Brooklyn kids that attend school in other Boroughs; public and private.

With all due respect, what are you talking about?

Why wouldn't someone be able to send their child to a private school?

Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 3:26 PM

this house should sell for 1.5 or less and i agree with the guy who said it would be worth 1.2 in a few yrs

bubbleland is over guys - all mortgage companies either blew up or blowing up, its hard even for prime guys to get a good mortgage, and even ny is now seeing declines in home prices....

but lets not say that too loud - some people still seem to have their heads up their arses

Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 3:40 PM

3:26 I'm not sure what you're talking about. Do you have children? Have you ever talked to anyone about this? Have you ever read articles about this issue? Why do you think there is such a frenzy around getting into preschool? Because people believe (rightly) that certain preschools will help their kids get a cherished spot in a private school. There is a chronic shortage of decent private school spots in this city due to the fact that so many people are now choosing to raise their kids in the city rather than the suburbs. A big reason why manhattanites are coming to brooklyn for school is because they can't get their kids into the good schools in manhattan. and that in turn makes it still harder for brooklyn kids to get into the brooklyn private schools. Not sure how this info has bypassed you so thoroughly.

Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 3:46 PM

any way i can have a user name without giving up my email?

im the 340pm poster - just dont want hate mail from idiots

Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 3:47 PM

This house was listed by a very small broker only a few months ago for 1.3 million. We made an offer at that price but never heard back after the broker said they were working hard to close with a buyer who was already in contract near the listing price. The interior was in good shape but probably needs about 200-300k to be brought up to livable level. The parlour floor is full of details and quite beautiful but the 2 upper apartments (1 of which is illegal) need a lot of work. Also, there are a few open Landmarks violations on the building. If this seller gets this price without doing any work they are making out like bandits: 495k profit for no improvements!

Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 3:48 PM

Unless ther are major structural problems, or the description of historical details is inaccurate, it will sell easily. This still represents a real value in Brownstone Brooklyn and an large valuae vis a vis Manhattan.

LP

Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 3:49 PM

This place will be worthless after AY is built.

Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 4:14 PM

just bcs people come from Manhattan to attend Packer, St Anns, Bklyn Friends or PolyPrep does NOT mean there are lots of spots. There are dozens of applicant for every spot. Park Slope and Cobble Hill are the most expensive brownstone districts for a reason.

Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 4:17 PM

"Absolutely! As we all know, Clinton Hill is now objectively the preferred neighborhood of Brooklyn! Everybody says so!"

Lol. Everybody who lives in Clinton Hill, anyway.

Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 4:22 PM

clintonhillhoya - your plan is the same as every other parent in nyc. not sure if you are tapped into the fact that every 13 year old in nyc will also be trying to get into those three high schools. (and many many many will be competing with you for the spots in private) so plan all you want, but I recommend a plan B.

And I am not saying that people aren't buying houses in neighborhoods with bad schools, I am saying that it is very legitimate to look at the public schools when assessing the value of a property (an earlier poster questioned why anyone would make this connection).

And PS - you may not know that tuition at these private schools is now $26,000 a year.

Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 4:29 PM

Thank you guest 4:17. Finally someone who knows what they're talking about. And by the way - did I say $26,000? It's actually $30,000.

Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 4:32 PM

Is it possible for Mr. B to filter and reject posts that include the following words/phrases:

"AY"
"Atlantic Yard"
"Effect"
"E-F-F-E-C-T"
"Worthless"

Within a certain proximity of each other?

Would anyone really care about this little bit of censorship that would make this readers' life much more bearable?

Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 4:34 PM

4:34 - LOL

Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 4:36 PM

most people i know who grew up going to private school either:

1. hate their parents for it
2. ended up as a coke head
3. went to harvard, was a spoiled brat and now makes 200K a year and complains they can't afford anything in this big, bad world.

but who cares what's best for the kids...right?

Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 4:44 PM

I agree going to private school can give you a serious sense of entitlement - and inflated expectations. especially in nyc where many if not most of the other students are multi millionaires.

Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 4:47 PM

funny, not one person expressed any sympathy for that old woman who is getting kicked out of her apartment after 27 years ....

Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 5:08 PM

that old woman probably got a very nice pay out and is buying a condo in florida with it.

Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 5:12 PM

4:29: Dead on. It always cracks me up how people without children have every aspect of raising children in NYC all figured out. Because, you know, they have like nieces or something.

Private school space in Brooklyn is extremely tight. Private schoold space in Manhattan is very tight too. All of which explains why Brooklyn kids go to Manhattan privates and vice versa. People apply to every private they can. A lucky few of them even get in.

Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 5:16 PM

3:46-I have heard of the frenzy but I haven't really seen it. I have two children in private school in Brooklyn and they had more than one choice when they started and I sponsor two low income children in a private pre-school and they didn't have any trouble getting in. And yes they are all in schools that are among the best.

Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 5:17 PM

4:29- Hey, chlintonhillhoya said "hope they test well enough". Also, the test isn't really that hard. Many kids turn down those coveted spots.

Everyone knows what tuition costs these days.

Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 5:23 PM

4:44- That's so stupid.

Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 5:24 PM

Always wondered... what do you think those really beautiful houses like the Pratt House on Clinton would be worth? I know it's apples and oranges with the house above, but...

Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 5:37 PM

4:29 - You have got to be kidding me. I'm sure it is a matter of opinion whether the test is hard - but at this point you probably have to get perfect scores to get in, or be a progeny violin player or some such thing. Truthfully, I don't know since my children are young and haven't gone through the process. But 60% of students at these schools are now asian - usually a sign that it's pretty damn competitive to get in.

And 5:17 - you're lucky and clearly financially well-off, which helps. And low income- sponsored kids will have a much easier time getting in because they add socioeconomic diversity without the school having to shell out financial aid.

Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 5:38 PM

You don't have to get a perfect score. I will say again that many kids turn down those spots. My kids are not young. They are the right age for me to know.

Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 5:41 PM

5:38 My pre-schoolers won financial aid this year after two years of attendance. The school doesn't pay all but they help.

Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 5:44 PM

Ok, we're way off track here and in an effort to bring it back to the original point; it is much more difficult for children applying for financial aid to get a private school spot but were talking about a wealthy person buying an expensive home and where they might send their child to be educated.

Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 5:50 PM

5:24....you think it's so stupid?

start asking around. ask teenagers, 20's, 30's etc. if they enjoyed going to private school.

it's easier to say something is stupid than to actually find out for yourself, isn't it?

you all need to read freakonomics.

seriously.

Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 5:51 PM

How do you think that I could have lived in NYC for years and not have found out for myself whether most adults who went to private school fit your description? Almost everyone I know went to private schools.. . and what you say is stupid. Not everything you read is true. Does your life experience match the claims of this book? Maybe you should have a pool ban, they are more dangerous than guns. Isn't that in Freakonomics? All private schools are not the same as all public schools are not the same and as for statistics... they can be manipulated to show anything. Put your thinking cap on. Are you into conspiracy theories too?

Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 6:02 PM

2:25 & 3:40,

Amen.

Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 6:07 PM

The kids at the religious schools in Crown Heights are a lot like the kids at Horace Mann.

Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 6:07 PM

"The kids at the religious schools in Crown Heights are a lot like the kids at Horace Mann."

Hmmm, somehow I doubt that.

Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 6:44 PM

I think that having kids in the city, Manhattan or Brooklyn, is hard. Parents cope in various ways. I agree that there are not enough good private schools, there used to be, but not any longer. I think that our old neighborhoods are reaching a certain saturation point that presages a shift in future demographics.
People used to leave the city because it was too scary, and multi-racial, and crowded although they loved many other things about it. People may now chose to leave the city because it is too expensive, difficult, and crowded although they love many other things about it (like the fact it is multi-racial). I think Americans are extremely pragmatic and will do what is best for their families egardless of their personal ideology.
The bloom is off brownstone Brooklyn, it used to be cool, but now it is just dog-eat-dog haute bourgeoise. With the added non-benefit of living cheek to jowl with the dog-eat-dog underclass.

Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 7:58 PM

the smugness and self-righteous of parents in 321 and 29 is blatant and annoying. but of course totally unsurprising.

Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 7:59 PM

of course, some people who go to private school love it. and of course some people who go to public school hate it.

we have a serious problem in this country right now with an entire generation of people who not only think that they deserve the moon without having to work for it, but think that buying something instead of working for it, is the only way to operate.

part of this is the fundamental principles of private education. you are buying a supposedly good education.

the problem is that many private schools do not stress enough or even foster the arts or culture...hmmmm...another thing that is severely lacking in the younger generation. these kids have the attention span of flies because they are given no means to develop hobbies such as playing a musical instrument or creating a piece of art. all of these things contribute in quite amazing ways with the development of young brain.

private schools, by nature stress money. whether indirectly by showing your child that getting into this school or that school should be your ultimate goal in life, or more directly by not allowing them to develop some of the most important aspects of any society which are the arts and culture.

it's a shame some public schools are not up to the standard that they should be, but i would do everything in my power to make sure my children attend public schools so that they can see that there is more to life than rich, white kids who want to grow up and work on wall street.

i just heard someone interviewed on charlie rose say that she thinks the best years for this country may be behind us. i hate to say it, but to a certain extent i do agree. kids need to learn early on that working like our parents and grandparents did to attain the goals they want and not get to be the age of 35 and think that somehow you deserve to own a 2 million dollar brownstone or we are in REAL trouble. there are countries...india and china namely that are leaving this country in the dust. education is the most important tool we have, and in my viewpoint, i don't think that most private schools do an adequate job of preparing kids to be inventive or creative or independent thinkers. i think it teaches them that if you get on a list early enough and have enough money in your bank account, that you are set for life.

you can say i'm exaggerating or a bleading liberal or whatever you want, but i see it on this blog all the time.

Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 8:03 PM

This thread has gotten so silly that it is almost unreadable.
This is a Real Estate forum. Real estate prices in NYC, like anywhere else, are affected by the quality of local public schools. This is true whether you have children, like children, went to private school, went to Bronx Science (I did by the way), or grew up in an isolation booth.
You may not like to swim, but that does not make ocean front property in the Hampton's worthless either.
My guess is that RE prices in NYC may have peaked or stalled out. I have been watching this market for a year and a half, especially in Fort Greene and Clinton Hill, and a lot of property has been on the market a long time. Some things have sold quickly, but others are languishing. In the long run, Clinton Hill will be a great investment. It is reasonable to expect and accept that there could be some short term problems. Anyone who speculates on the idea that NYC real estate will yield a short term windfall, like the owner of this home, is taking a MAJOR risk.

Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 8:09 PM

8:03--your post is so full of generalities as to be totally meaningless. a sense of entitlement? do you have any sense of history? i'd say there's a lot less than there used to be. ever heard of the robber barons, the aristocracy, etc?

"we have a serious problem in this country right now with an entire generation of people who not only think that they deserve the moon without having to work for it, but think that buying something instead of working for it, is the only way to operate"

really, an "entire generation"? come on, get a grip. at least try to acknowledge the history and shades of gray in the issues you are preaching on.

Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 8:18 PM

here here 8:09 - that's what I was trying to say in my original post many hours ago (3:08)

Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 8:19 PM

keep your heads in the sand if that's what you prefer.

meanwhile the u.s. is slipping down the ladder of the industrialized countries on so many things.

a recent addition being life expectancy. any reason the u.s. should be 41st on this list??

maybe because most people are more concerned with what's going on in lindsay lohan's life than they are with finding cures for diseases.

you don't believe me?

then you don't have your eyes open.

Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 8:35 PM

Can we get back to the house!

Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 8:42 PM

It's a weird situation talking about houses this week.

Some people think that in 2 years this place is going to be worth half what it is now, and the rest are pretending like everything is fine, because they know it isn't. No matter what we say about this house, someone is going to say it's foolish to be buying a property like this right now and that makes EVERYONE nervous.

So what now?

Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 8:47 PM

I think in one year it will be worth half but in three it will be worth as much if not more.

Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 8:53 PM

so you predict a 50% drop in one year and then a 200% increase over the next three??

you must be an economist.

Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 8:57 PM

8:57
It would be a repeat of the 1989-92 cycle.
a drop if 50% (or more) the first year and then a regain of losses over the next two to three years, if you think that is far-fetched, you have not been in NYC real estate that long.

Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 9:55 PM

5:08, I feel sorry for the tenant. It's a damn shame.

5:12 - You don't have the foggiest clue what you're talking about. Did you read the linked article in the Daily News? Do you understand that as a two family home, there are no protections, and thus, no buyouts for that "condo in Florida" you mentioned?

Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 10:49 PM

10:49, the fact that it's two family might not guarantee that the tenant wasn't rent control in the first place. Just 2 weeks ago or so we we're all debating about a guy who has a rent controlled duplex in a two family up for sale on Baltic I think it was? Check the end of July archives...

Posted by: guest at August 17, 2007 1:43 AM

I remember that I bought my first place in Brooklyn 14 years ago for $390,000. It had been $700,000 at the top of the market in the late 80's and slipped to the price that I bought it at in the early 90's and is now at $2.5. My neighbors upstairs were horrified because they had paid $385,000 for coops half the size. Those apartments are now worth over a million.

Moral of the story. Even if prices drop to half of the highs, todays prices are not historical highs.

I am one of the people who thinks that prices are going down, down, down. I put up a "has anyone been watching the market" post in the forum weeks ago and got lambasted. It seems now that more people are starting to see the light or darknessa s the case may be.

Posted by: guest at August 17, 2007 10:37 AM

I went to private high school in New Jersey and was miserable. Much preferred public (middle) school. Many more interesting characters who I remember fondly. (Have blocked out names of almost everyone I went to high school with.) Hoping to send my daughter to PS 269 in Boerum Hill.

Posted by: guest at August 17, 2007 10:57 AM

I went to private high school in New Jersey and was miserable. Much preferred public (middle) school. Many more interesting characters who I remember fondly. (Have blocked out names of almost everyone I went to high school with.) Hoping to send my daughter to PS 269 in Boerum Hill.

Posted by: guest at August 17, 2007 10:57 AM

I went to private high school in New Jersey and was miserable. Much preferred public (middle) school. Many more interesting characters who I remember fondly. (Have blocked out names of almost everyone I went to high school with.) Hoping to send my daughter to PS 269 in Boerum Hill.

Posted by: guest at August 17, 2007 10:57 AM

What a strange list. I've tuned in here three times recently, regarding buildings in Clinton Hill, and this is the weirdest discussion of them all. I hardly know where to start.

First, regarding the house, I can tell you that I'm a neighbor and have been in a few times. There are lovely original details (pocket doors, moldings, excellent original floors, etc.) but it will need a major upgrade.

As for the schools issue - which is the neighborhood in NYC with the excellent public schools?

As for the price - we bought about 50 feet from this house right before 9/11 and were concerned that we'd bought at a peak. Remember all the talk of bubbles and recessions back then? It was going to be the end of irony even. I think this mortgage problem is less severe, certainly not the 'end of home financing as we know it' as one paranoid observer noted above. Relax.

How will Atlantic Yards affect the pricing of surrounding brownstones? will all the people seeking out historic brownstones suddenly opt for Geary-designed sheetrock condos overlooking the busiest intersection on the planet? Anyone's guess.

Posted by: guest at August 17, 2007 4:26 PM

1:43 - The Daily News article said the tenant did not even have a lease since the owner was her friend. So, no buyout. No condo in Florida.

Posted by: guest at August 18, 2007 11:54 PM

"How will Atlantic Yards affect the pricing of surrounding brownstones?"

The logic underlying that argument is not that people will flock to the AY monstrosities, but that the presence of AY will depress values of the surrounding areas. That said, this house seems to be sufficiently far away for that not to be factor. Still, $2,000,000 for that location? Not feeling it.

Posted by: guest at August 19, 2007 4:34 PM

Three months later and Status = Available.

Posted by: guest at November 20, 2007 2:31 PM