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August 16, 2007
Development Blog: Inside Third & Bond
Today we launch an experimental new feature on the site, a development blog written by a developer. Despite having taken a few lumps from us in the past over the J Condo, The Hudson Companies is going to blog its next Brooklyn project, the townhouse condos at 111 Third Street in Gowanus, on Brownstoner.com. Frankly, we've got no idea what to expect, but suspect that on balance it'll be a pretty interesting exercise. Every Thursday, David Kramer, one of the firm's principals, and his associate Alison Novak, will pen a new post. There are only two things we've suggested they bring to the table: total transparency and a thick skin.
After reading the first posting about our latest development at 111 Third Street (GMAP) on Brownstoner two weeks ago, we pitched Mr. B on the idea of an ongoing weekly blog, reporting the process (warts and all) as we design, develop, finance, construct and market our new housing project. For the Brownstoner community, this will be a chance to peer inside the real estate development world to see how we make the sausage. For us at Hudson, a chance to take advantage of a built-in focus group of informed Brooklynites while getting some free publicity.
It all started last summer when the Vitanza brothers, plumbing contractors who had been at the site for 10 years, decided to relocate to Red Hook and take advantage of the skyrocketing land prices in brownstone Brooklyn. Like many of the listings that cross our desk, this one, for a site with 180 feet of frontage on Third Street and potential for almost 50,000 square feet of development, came from Massey Knakal. Four out of five listings that we get we immediately discard….too expensive, lousy location, too small, too big. If we had a dollar for every flier advertising a site in Downtown Brooklyn (i.e., Flatbush/Willoughby) to build a 30 story building and pay $200/sf for the land. What are they smoking? But we focused on this listing.
For starters, it was down the street from our then office location...
...We had noticed the increasing desirability of this area—Park Slope moving west, Carroll Gardens moving east, Gowanus becoming a hipster name, the F train 2 blocks away, and coming slowly into focus, a distant image in the future, the first Whole Foods of Brooklyn coming to Third & Third.
We also liked the price, $160/sf. We thought you could sell finished condos in a quality product for at least $700/sf, so there could be a profit if you didn’t screw up. Finally, we had a concept for the housing that fit well with the R6 zoning…a row of townhouses, 4 stories high, each one consisting of multiple condos so that the price could be affordable for each unit, and we wouldn’t have to worry about selling each house for $2-3 million. These condos would have a range of sizes and prices, from $400K to $1.4 million. We could build 20-foot wide townhouses, 9 of them in a row, that was our plan.
We placed our bid, got encouraging feedback from Ken Freeman of Massey Knakal that our bid was competitive…..and we didn’t get the deal. The Vitanzas signed a contract with Developer #1. Oh well, more frogs to kiss, more development sites to explore. Or so we thought...
See you next week,
David & Alison
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Comments
I think this is a great idea for a blog - very impressive and very humanizing for those of us on brownstoner who see all developers as alien behemoths. Even though this location is literally gowanus - you are really in Carroll Gardens in terms of parks, amenities, subway, etc., so truly a great location - one that will only get better when the gowanus canal (fingers crossed) gets cleaned up...
Posted by: oncewas at August 16, 2007 11:08 AM
Welcome, David & Alison! I think this is a REALLY great idea for Brownstoner. It'll be interesting to watch the process from the developer's perspective--and if they're willing to open himself to this much scrutiny, they're probably straight shooters to begin with. Also, looping in the development community this way rather than us all just bitching about them could be a meaningful step toward other builders listening to community concerns about design.
Posted by: Rehab at August 16, 2007 11:19 AM
Since we're on the topic of new additions to the site...
Several people have inquired about why Ditmas Park and Midwood are not included on your drop down list of neighborhoods. As of this AM, these neighborhoods are still not listed, and no one has yet said anything about why they're omitted.
What gives?
Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 11:37 AM
Wow, I'm looking forward to this! I'm hoping this blog will encourage the develper to do everything just a little better, whether it is picking the bricks or responding to neighbor concerns.
Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 11:47 AM
great great great idea! looking forward to the rest of it.
Posted by: bhguy at August 16, 2007 12:02 PM
Bravo -- great idea for the site, great location to develop. I've lived off of Fifth Avenue in PS for years and am amazed every time I walk over/back from Smith Street at the desolation that sits between the two neighborhoods. Given the canal and the industrial feel of the area, transforming it won't be quick or easy, but then again look what's happening to 4th Ave.
And this is one area where I can't see the knee-jerk gentrification hating really being much of a factor. Just look at the picture above -- who's going to be nostalgic for that?
Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 12:06 PM
11:37, historically we've put those nabes under the rubrick of Victorian Flatbush...
Posted by: brownstoner at August 16, 2007 12:20 PM
wait, hold on, i think this is the WORST idea ever!!!! i hate it how developers get everything they want, now, including free advertizing on brownstoner. brownstoner how low will you go?
Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 12:26 PM
I don't see what the problem is if everything's out on the table. No money's changing hands here, Mr. B?
Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 1:20 PM
Nope, no money's changing hands. What you see is what you get on this one.
Posted by: brownstoner at August 16, 2007 1:38 PM
If anything the developer is going way out on a limb if they truly are going to provide the total transparency Brownstoner has requested. From my pespective, as a small scale developer, there appears to be significant risk for the developer in the trade off of insight from "built-in focus groups" in exchange for an inside look at the harsh reality of some aspects of real estate development. They might have already thought of that. It will be interesting to see if the degree of transparency they offer is linked to the value of the feedback and interest in the project they receive.
Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 2:15 PM
Here's my concern: How do we know these people are being transparent, or that they're showing all the "warts"? It's not like Brownstoner is going to independently vet their claims. They are blogging a process that will end in their having a product to sell for a profit. They have every financial interest to cast themselves and that project in as positive a light as possible. It's not as though we can expect Brownstoner to edit and vet every claim they make. For the developers to do that in their own commercial blog would be one thing, but it doesn't seem to fit in a blog like Brownstoner, which aims to be an independent blog covering Brooklyn and Brooklyn real estate.
Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 4:43 PM
I welcome reading the process from their perspective. Of course I realize will all be from a profit making point of view. Am sure I'll have dozens of questions which hope to some extent they might answer.
Also looking forward to the actual development - and I confess I'm the one that made the defensive and what were considered snarky comments for this project on the posting last week.
Posted by: Petebklyn at August 16, 2007 4:54 PM
What we really need is an dedicated anti-development site maybe funded by a NIMBY-BANANA foundation of some sort.
Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 8:18 PM
I was curious about the choice of 20' wide row houses. As an owner of a 22' house, the office/little room is so small, would they be keeping the traditional layout of a brownstone or would the front rooms be full width? Or skinny (2) 10' rooms?
Would the depth be a 40-50' or 60-70'?
Would the streetscape be a simulation of a row of brownstones, or Canarsie houses with bay windows etc? Would the houses have symmetrical 2 or three windows with stoops?
I am interested in the inner workings of a development like this, thanks for starting this blog.
Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 9:43 PM
Those of us who actually live behind this site are going to be very interested in this blog. If you look at the picture above, you may just see a large maple tree that lies in our back yard. The history of these lots is pretty sordid. The Vitanza brothers tore down a garage that is now the empty lot on the left of this picture with complete disregard to the damage that it caused to the houses both adjacant to the lot on 3rd street and those behind it, including ours, on 2nd Street. This was all done to ensure a change in zoning to allow residential development. Having succeeded in doing so, they then sold to 'Developer #1' who I shall not name and shame, who then proceeded to spin a web of lies to those of us living next to the property which resulted in a substantial cost to the owners of 5 properties adjacent to the lot in legal fees related to a deal proposed by 'Developer #1'. Having been completely led up the garden path by this developer we discovered out of the blue that they had flipped the deal. We, the owners of the properties adjacent to this development will be very interested to see how much transparency there will be in the proposed plans and how the blog develops.
Posted by: guest at August 16, 2007 10:30 PM
Ummm yeah! How about the transparency on how David Kramer, the developer, purchased the lot? They didn't purchase it from the Vitanza brothers, but rather from another developer as a flip at a bloated price (The highest price paid per foot in the neighborhood) There were already architectural plans for this site. Nice start with the bs transparency!
Posted by: guest at August 17, 2007 1:20 AM
At least they plan to build something that sounds like it "belongs" in that part of Brooklyn, not some huge tower.
Posted by: guest at August 17, 2007 4:57 AM
I have a love-hate relationship with developers (I'm an architect) I think the choice to build townhouses is an obvious and appropriate one - considering the nabe and street life. Just make them contemporary, no more of this cheap Disneyland historicism. The building types in the area are as diverse and interesting as the residences. Part of the attraction of gowanus is that its not carroll gardens nor the slope.
Brooklyn and Gowanus can accommodate something new and exciting precisely because its not Manhattan. This project can capture the edgy spirit of the place. Push your architect to do something interesting and on/under budget. It possible. Don't be lazy.
Posted by: guest at August 17, 2007 10:16 AM
1:20 - what's with the hating? there is nothing in the original post about a flip and clearly the op does not consider the $160 / sf price of the land to be bloated. even if there was a flip involved - so what?
Posted by: guest at August 17, 2007 1:49 PM
Hello David and Alison,
What an interesting idea to have a blog engaging compliments and controversy. It will take a lot of work to keep honest dialog going. I hope the blog remains a refreshing exchange of ideas that benefit all the parties and especially the neighborhood. It might be interesting to post some meaningful blog metrics to see if it's meeting its desired purpose. (JMN)
Posted by: guest at August 18, 2007 10:38 AM
What about clean up? I guess being a blockand a half away from the Whole Foods site (which has been sitting unbuilt upon for almost four years) makes the ground at 3rd & Bond Street ALOT different! I'm SURE the levels of cyanide, mercury, benzene, pesticides, V.O.C's & PCB's are MUCH lower! Can the sewage pipes handle the approximate 300 new residents to the block (90 units, I'm just guestimating) probrably not. They can barely handle the few homes and businesses down here as it is.
Posted by: guest at August 18, 2007 12:42 PM
The haters are gonna hate, no matter what; just as the builders will build, no matter what. That said, I think opening up a usually secretive process to any degree of unenforced public scrutiny, however legit it may or may not be, is a great idea. And as a developer myself, I am curious to see how the sharp and prickly minds of the Brooklyn real estate blogging community will react...
Posted by: guest at August 18, 2007 1:29 PM
I just had a buddy with the city check on the sale. No record of a flip. That gall from 5th Street is my neighbor. She's totally wacked - all pissed of she made nothing off the deal.
Posted by: guest at August 21, 2007 12:56 PM
Hello Alison,
I was looking for an update. (JMN)
Posted by: guest at January 1, 2008 8:55 AM
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