« Friday Links Development Watch: Butt-Ugly on Smith »

July 6, 2007

Streetlevel: Organic Boom on Cortelyou

The changing demographics in Victorian Flatbush are having a big impact on the neighborhood's food market scene. On the heels of a new organic market opening on the cornering Cortelyou and Stratford a couple of weeks ago (and the Green Market opening this past weekend) comes the news, via a neighborhood tipster, that the Food Co-op will be buying out the Associated on Cortelyou and Marlborough. According to our source, Associated owner Leon Boyer is selling because of all the "damned yuppies." What's the impact of this on the folks in the area who can't afford organic fare? Do they still have other options?
Photo by Kate Leonova for Property Shark

Trackback Pings

TrackBack URL for this entry:
http://www.brownstoner.com/mte/mt-tb.cgi/1536

Comments

I think the arrival of Fresh Direct in the district may also have something to do with his decision to sell. The Met Food on Cortelyou suits me fine, with a great deli counter and a responsive management. The butcher on Cortelyou is good, as well. I think the co-op and the new organic grocery store are a little redundant, but we'll see.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 6, 2007 9:14 AM

Stop & Shop is just fine to me.

Posted by: More? at July 6, 2007 9:35 AM

Isn't the co-op incredibly cheap & organic?

Posted by: clinton hillbilly at July 6, 2007 9:39 AM

Every single time I've been in that Associated, I have smelled cigarette smoke in the back near the Deli counter. We stopped shopping there. Selection wasn't great and the smoking thing was disgusting. The owner could've really made some money if he had expanded his mundane produce section to include a wider variety of stuff. What the neighborhood needs is a great produce place. The Coop's produce is limited and extremely over priced and there's not a significant amount of produce at the organic store. The owner of the Associated should've taken a trip to Atlantic Avenue's Green Pea grocery or Pacific Green on Pacific and Court to see what appeals to a changing demographic. All of these places are missing a big opportunity.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 6, 2007 9:46 AM

Can't stand the food co-op. Prices are way too high and the selection is crappy at best. I drive to Pathmark Gowanus for groceries and in a pinch shop at the C-Town on E 16th & Newkirk. The food co-op and Vox Pop are just way too organic crazed granola crunchy for my taste.

Posted by: tag482 at July 6, 2007 9:47 AM

I agree that the co-op is unreasonably priced. It's also disgustingly small and filled with morons, strollers and obnoxious brats. I suppose having a larger space would be nice for them, but if the prices don't change - screw em.

I think the Met across the street is disgusting and tiny. I made the comment above about Stop & Shop but wanted to add more.

Posted by: Yep at July 6, 2007 9:50 AM

Are we talking about the park slope food co-op? The produce selection is amazing, and by far the best in Brooklyn, especially for the prices. Does anyone have any links on this?

Posted by: Polemachus at July 6, 2007 9:52 AM

There is still a Met on Cortelyou and a C Town on Church for the non-organic crowd. I agree that the neighborhood is missing a great produce place. I think what would fly even better is a Blue Apron/Union Market sort of place with good breads, cheese, meats, olives, etc.. I think they are putting in way too much organic stuff. The neighborhood is becoming yuppy and I can't tell you how many times I've heard people at the playground and in the shops saying how much they want a gourmet food shop as opposed to another organic one. The new nature food store, to be fair, is actually pretty good. Better than the coop.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 6, 2007 9:53 AM

No 9:52, the park slope coop is excellent. Courtelyou has a different "coop", which isn't really a coop and is very overpriced and understocked and not so fresh.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 6, 2007 9:55 AM

A neighbor on the neighborhood listserv described a conversation with the owner. Her reporting was much more accurate and in tune than Mr. Brownstoner's "damn yuppies" comment which is so old and a cop out. Shame on you. Situations are usually more complicated than name calling and broad generalizations.

"One of the reasons that they sold was because they were hurting over the last couple of years. They didn't quite figure out the magic formula to fully serve the diversity of the neighborhood, and while they tried a lot of innovative things, he felt as if he either offended or aliented different groups when trying to please everyone. I am witness to their efforts as I saw them try more upscale and organic produce, meat, deli and bakery items as well as host neighborhood cooking demonstrations, and I also started to see a wider variety of ethnic products like indian mango pickle, mexican foods, etc."

Posted by: Anonymous at July 6, 2007 9:58 AM

This is a great opportunity for the Flatbush Food Coop to expand its membership by offering a more enticing discount for working members - something on par with the Park Slope Food Coop. There are a lot of people living out here putting great time and effort into the Park Slope Food Coop. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with this, but wouldn't it be great for the neighborhood if people spent their money and directed their efforts locally? Although the FFC can't afford to lose it's non member customer base just yet, it would pay for them to start imitating the PSFC model as best they can. A move like this would also help them to stay afloat - the new organic market down the street poses serious competition.

Posted by: Erin Joslyn at July 6, 2007 10:04 AM

It is a fact of life in the supermarket business that stores need remodelling every five years or so. The fast pace of change in the Cortelyou area has brought Associated to that point now.

But without updates and remodelling, shoppers drift off to the competition, which is suddenly abundant on Cortelyou.

Meanwhile, the Associated always struck me in a funny way. When I began shopping there I felt as though I had drifted into the only store in a small sleepy town. The place gave me a feeling of dullness. And tiredness. And the fruit selection inside the front door always seemed meager.

It did seem as though the store couldn't pinpoint its own identity. As much as the owner may have wanted to please the changing base of shoppers, I got the feeling something was holding him back. Perhaps he felt that catering to the "yuppies" was some act of treason to the shoppers he'd served for a lot of years.

Meanwhile, the Flatbush Food Coop is the last organization I'd want running the Associated site.

By the way, the Coop has narrow aisles. Yet the store, with its "health food" sensibility seems to attract a lot of people who can barely slip through those close passages. What gives?

Anyway, the Coop prices encourage many shoppers to look elsewhere for food. Unless you want to pay about $5 a pound for "organic bananas" it pays to shop at other venues.

The neighborhood would fare far better if the Park Slope Food Coop acquired the Flatbush phony coop. However, that would lead to yet another twist in the social fabric. Not negative, just one that's good for a little mirth.

Meanwhile, Cortelyou needs a bank. I heard that a bank may occupy the site catty-corner from Vox Pop. But a better site is the corner of Marlborough and Cortelyou. The site of the Cornerstone Pub, I guess it was.

Posted by: guilt by associated at July 6, 2007 10:27 AM

I agree on the bank, but please, please, let a new pub go in the cornerstone space. It is a great old school pub site and the neighborhood needs one bar!

Posted by: Anonymous at July 6, 2007 10:34 AM

I have long called the Flatbush Food Co-op the "very expensive compost store." A real flashback to the old days when "organic" produce meant "tiny rotting brown apples" and such. As for Associated, the management did make various efforts over the years to attract their "evolving demographic," but the demographic along Cortelyou has "evolved" so oddly and fitfully that "I pity the fool." What'll it be--Mexican folks, moms in hijabs, WIC, and 99-cent stores, or yuppies and sun-dried tomatoes? Really, both, and that's a hard bifurcation to straddle. Add that to the store's small size and bizarre layout, and it's highly problematic that the Compost Co-op will do any better. (I keep reading how the supermarket biz has a razor-thin profit margin.) Agree totally that what the area needs is a good greenmarket (aside from the seasonal farmer's market)--maybe combined with something like the Ace in Park Slope at 7th Ave. and Berkeley. The Ace is akin to a (pricey) old-fashioned corner grocery; the place is like a Tardis, bigger inside than outside, and mysteriously seems to always have Exactly What I Want.
Or...we could just start a Flatbush shuttle-bus service to Fairway.

Posted by: Brenda from Flatbush at July 6, 2007 10:38 AM

I was shocked to see the Associated packing up. Where am I going to get regular non-organic, pricey staples, much less Breyers with 2 organic stores in the area?? Yes, I guess there is Met, but they need to clean up. And same with C-Town.

The Flatbush Food Co-Op is never fun to go into. I avoid it at all costs. It's narrow, small, crowded, and you're forever getting out of the way of the employees. I've gone in there to just pick up 1 or 2 things and the line for the cashier just makes me put it back and leave. If they are smart, they will increase the fruit/veggie selection, clean it up (nothing ever looked fresh sitting in those age-old barrels), and decrease their prices.

The new Frontier Market is great.. but I was sorely disaapointed with the lack of abundant fresh fruit/veggies that didn't cost $5/lb.

Something I loved about Park Slope was that there were a ton of green grocers with super fresh produce at competitive prices. AND they were clean and neat. Also, even tho the lines were long, those guys behind the counter knew how to MOVE and get people rung up without a long wait.

WE NEED MORE GREEN GROCERS IN FLATBUSH! Competing organic markets are fine for that granola and speciality stuff, but I really just want decent, competitively priced food!!

Posted by: slope to cortelyou at July 6, 2007 11:03 AM

I meant... NON-pricey staples...

Posted by: slope to cortelyou at July 6, 2007 11:04 AM

Here's my problem with both the Flatbush Coop and the new place: neither sell locally grown produce during market season. It's not just big places like Whole Foods who can make deals with local farmers - when I lived in Greenpoint, the Garden, run by a local Polish family, sold Red Jacket Orchard's fruit and ciders every summer. What gives with only selling food flown in from New Zealand and California, when we live in a great farm state?

I love that they're both here, though. They have pros and cons. The Coop is really frustrating to shop in sometimes, and sometimes very overpriced, but they have great, cheap organic coffee. The new place has horrible, stale coffee, but better prices for some of the same stuff, and I don't feel like I'm in a macrobiotic throwback of humming flourescent lights and carob treats.

That Met Food is disgusting. And the Associated...well, that place wasn't so bad. But they charged $9 for a jar of gefilte fish...is that "supporting the diversity of the neighborhood"? For those who want gourmet food, I say just walk over to Golden Farm on e. 4th, or any of the other Russian markets. Those places are terrific. I'd still rather support local businesses than trek to another neighborhood to shop, and no way do I want to see the Flatbush Coop turn into the Park Slope coop. I already lived in Cambridge, thank you.

Posted by: Leela at July 6, 2007 11:10 AM

Blaming his business problems on "damned yuppies," if the guy really said that, is weak. It's just entitled whinging to complain that your customer base has changed, expects different things and expects you to satisfy its needs. It's the same thing I've seen too often from old Brooklyn businesses--not all, just the bad ones--who think their customers have a moral obligation to put up with their crap and accept substandard service.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 6, 2007 11:19 AM

By the way, a fine example is DNY Natural Land on Flatbush, just above the 7th Ave Q. They have a small sushi area, decent seafood selections, ready-made sushi, lots of fruits and veggies that always look fresh, and a fine mixed selection of both organic and non organic groceries. Also, a great flower selection. The prices aren't dirt cheap, but they are reasonable and offer a lot in a small space. I still go there to do my one-stop shopping if I can.

Just ONE of those in Ditmas Park would be more than enough. And I can bet they'd take the bulk of the business from BOTH organic markets! Any green grocers want to make a killing in a changing neighborhood? Go to DNY Natural Land on Flatbush in Park Slope/Prospect Heights, take a look, and open a place in Ditmas Park or Kensington.

Oh, and I feel DP development iis overshooting the "gentrification" of that neighborhood with these 2 organic stores. Let's first work on getting the basics right! A bank would be nice instead of going to the stupid Chase machine in Duane Reade.

Posted by: slope to cortelyou at July 6, 2007 11:22 AM

Leela, your first comment is spot on.

Industrial organic is a dicey thing. Sure, it's great that some acres are not being flooded with pesticides and nitrates, but the offset of shipping across the country, burning fossil fuels all the way, is disheartening.

You'd think smaller places not in the Whole Foods model would try and support the locally grown organic goodies.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 6, 2007 11:26 AM

If I wanted to schlep to Kensington, I would have bought in Kensington.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 6, 2007 11:35 AM

Fat chance we'll see a bar in the Cornerstone space, not with a landlord charging $6k a month for a place that's falling apart. This is the problem when a strip gets "hot"--owners get ridiculous ideas about what their stores are worth, and then the only business that can move in are chains or other places that sell crap at high volume.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 6, 2007 11:36 AM

Agree 100% with Slope to Cortelyou. I have lived in the neighborhood two years, but have been a 25 year resident of Brooklyn. So... Am I a damned yuppie or an old timer? Demographics for the many apartment buildings have not changed due to new influx of residents. The Co-op expansion underservers everyone.

I don't have a car to get to stop-n-shop or Pathmark frequently. The other options are not great, Even the brand new C-Town on Coney Island Avenue reeks with that down-market soggy cardboard box whiff.

I wish the Co-op had taken half the space and the other space for a store with solid staples, like potato chips that don't cost $3.99 a bag.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 6, 2007 11:41 AM

Anon 11:35: How neighborly of you.

Posted by: Slope to Cortelyou at July 6, 2007 12:10 PM

Slope to Cortelyou -

Kensington and Ditmas Park are 2 different neighborhoods (remember the uproar when Connecticut Muffin started setting up shop?). They both need their own supermarkets, nail salons, etc...

11:35

Posted by: Anonymous at July 6, 2007 12:16 PM

Anon 11:41... actually the C-Town is not brand new. They've been there forever and they just keep those banners and signs there. I once thought the same until a longtime resident told me otherwise.

Posted by: slope to cortelyou at July 6, 2007 12:17 PM

anon 12:16: actually, i really don't know the uproar and could care less if it's just a bunch of people being upset that their precious DP is being mistaken for Kensington. Sorry, but I use both for whatever needs the other doesn't have. I don't abide to black and white rules. there are people that live very close to kensington in DP and vice versa.

Posted by: slope to cortelyou at July 6, 2007 12:23 PM

Exploring the neato places all over this general area is fun. And walking is good exercise. I can't imagine what could possibly be fun about driving to Red Hook to shop. I bet you can't get Armenian rosepetal jam there. And real New Yorkers don't drive, natch! (insert smiley emoticon here for intended good humor). Anyway, my husband just pointed out something that no one's yet mentioned about the Co-op here: it's often patronized by Caribbean people and Orthodox Jews. So it's not exactly catering to "yuppies" (a largely false and misleading term, anyway). Clearly it's serving the people who live here, and it was locally founded, and it has been here for a while.

Posted by: Leela at July 6, 2007 12:26 PM

I am poster 11:41. Yes, the Coop by nature of its stock provides a large selection of food that gets a good patronage from Caribbean and Jewish people with dietary requirements (Kosher and Adventist). However, many of these patrons come in from surrounding areas and not the immediate neighborhood. I think it's ironic that the larger Coop will attract more people from out of the area, meanwhile those of us who are right here may need to travel for a regular supermarket. And I meant to say that the C-town on CIA is newly "renovated". Guess I will have to dodge traffic with my little shopping cart and walk past the leering workers at the auto body shops on my way over to C-Town. Because obviously I'm only over there to purposefully sashay past these guys.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 6, 2007 1:17 PM

Any chance Met food on Cortelyou will step up to the plate and reinvent themselves as a decent supermarket?

Posted by: Anonymous at July 6, 2007 1:27 PM

Poster 11:41: LOL I know what you mean about those auto body shops. I cringe walking past them. And I didn't realize the C-Town renovated. How so, and when? I might have to give them a 2nd look.

I'm really curious how DP will develop. I think these organic shops may attract the park slopers who want to see some sort of semblance to their amenities, but honestly, where are the basics? DP's structure was mainly for those in large summer houses "way out in brooklyn" and where everyone had a car to go pick up their needs in far flung places. Sorry, but there aren't a whole lot of new multi-complex housing that I see going up in DP. A lot in Kensington, yes. But those who can afford the large DP houses are likely not doing their bulk shopping on Cortelyou. I still have't found a decent place that has good fish and meat that looks edible on Cortelyou. So all those new bloods from the slope and such, where the heck are you buying these things? I'll bet they're schlepping outside the hood for those things.

Posted by: slope to cortelyou at July 6, 2007 1:30 PM

The fish place on Newkirk is pretty good. The butcher place on E. 16th looks OK, but the one time I bought some cold cuts there for a party, I unwrapped the wax paper and found a mouse turd on the turkey. Gwwrrxt! So I haven't bought anything there since, sadly. I'd love to support them, but ick!

Posted by: Leela at July 6, 2007 1:45 PM

I live in a big house in Ditmas (since that seems to be an issue on this thread). Currently, I schlep to Fairway about 3x a month, which I would be doing anyway if I still lived in PS. However, now that the new organic market is here, I will be shlepping only aout 1 or 2 times per month. I would prefer not to schlep at all, but there's not going to be a Fairway on every corner in Brooklyn, no matter how swish the 'hood.

So, yes, I am diverting more cash towards my local high street now that the new market is here. And that's a good thing. Organic or not.

A bank and a Post Office would be nice, too.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 6, 2007 1:50 PM

We're among those former Slopers (actually from the wrong side of Windsor Terrace, but, whatever), and we buy our seafood on Newkirk near E.16th I think it is. We go to Coney Island Ave below Ave. H for dried fruits that are outstanding! Further down on CIAve you can get the best Jewish deli. I think it's called Essex on Coney? Next door-ish to Essex is an amazing bakery. We buy bags of basmati rice for a song at the Pakistani stores on CIAve. We take long walks or short bike rides to the Green Market at Grand Army Plaza year round. Fresh mozzarella from the Italian butcher shop on PPW in WT. Bagels from Terrace Bagels (the absolute best). Boxed packaged staples from Met Foods. Amazing soul food and Carib breads and patties from Church beyond Flatbush. You have to explore folks! It's all here and it's all incredible!

Posted by: Midwood Park at July 6, 2007 1:51 PM

gross! i think this confirms my idea that these basics need to be established. wine store, kiddie boutique store... nice but.. where are the things i neeeeeed?

Posted by: slope to cortelyou at July 6, 2007 1:52 PM

hey, as far as I'm concerned the wine store is a basic need. I've been in the neighborhood almost ten years and its the only recent arrival on Cortelyou that has had any significant positive impact on my life at all. Well, I like the dance studio too.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 6, 2007 1:55 PM

I think the c-town closed temporarily about six months ago or more, cleaned up and reopened with new "Grand Opening" banners. The banners are still up. So they might not have really done anything.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 6, 2007 2:02 PM

Midwood Park: Whew! I was exhausted after reading all the places you go for food! :) Ummm.. I'm all for exploration and the whole "visit all the streets for your best groceries" thing.. but it would be nice if some of those places were along one strip. If I want to do that much schlepping, I'll go one stop to park slope or trader joe's. sure it's farther, but my time is a bit more important than to go all over brooklyn for rice here, bread there, veggies, here, deli meats there. I'm small and lugging those groceries from one place to another is a pain in the rear. i swear, if fresh direct delivered to my address, I'd order everything from them. yeah, i want to support my local places, but it's too much hassle aside from the occasional visit.

Posted by: slope to cortelyou at July 6, 2007 2:03 PM

anon 2:02: I moved to the area in spring of 2006. that C-town had those same banners back then. i'll go take another look, and i hope i'll be surprised. i ventured there ONCE maybe last summer. it was a place i only wanted to buy packaged unperishables.

Posted by: slope to cortelyou at July 6, 2007 2:06 PM

I was really disappointed with Fresh Direct. Not a patch on Fairway. Hated all the packaging. Wouldn't ever use them again, despite the convenience.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 6, 2007 2:09 PM

Anon 1:55: Hm.. it's possible the wine made a positive impact in dulling the fact and drowning the sorrows that there aren't any other basic needs places. ;) (I say that jokingly and good-humoredly).

Posted by: slope to cortelyou at July 6, 2007 2:12 PM

Midwood park -
I go to a lot of those places. They rock!! A few suggestions - the bakery on J a couple of blocks east of CIA (ostrivitsky's i think) has the most amazing onion rolls ever. There is also a really good Israeli place for hummus etc on CIA a few doors down from essex on coney. You are so right though, everything is here you just need to know where to look :)

Posted by: Anonymous at July 6, 2007 2:16 PM

Fresh Direct has wine.

Posted by: anon at July 6, 2007 2:21 PM

Most of these places you're all mentioning are in or practically in Midwood. A bit out of my way when you're along the cortelyou strip. I have little time as it is to go as far as Ave. J unless it's a weekend stroll. And honestly, it's not all that pleasant to stroll on CIA.

Posted by: slope to cortelyou at July 6, 2007 2:25 PM

11:42 here again. I see no difference between the Flatbush Coop or a Trader Joe's. TJ to me is a good occasional visit for a treat, so is the Coop, but NOT a regular places to get staples.

I am a modest homeowner in Ditmas Park West and really feel out of place on Brownstoner sometimes when conversations tend toward recommendations for a "basic" toilet is a $750.00 model and traveling to Trader Joes or Fairway is a reasonable alternatvie for everyday shopping. Something's missing - basic services for apartment dwellers and middle-of-the-roaders like me. These basic services dwindle, replaced by stores selling silly Barnwood furniture made by the honest Amish folk or whoever (WHO wants that rustic stuff in a Victorian House anyway???) this stuff does not make a great neighborhood -basic services do.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 6, 2007 2:29 PM

2:29: I am a TJs user. The difference is that TJs is extremely well priced compared to the Flatbush co-op. And the selection is pretty good (ok, not the fruits though).

That said, I wholeheartedly agree with you regarding needing basic services for apartment dwellers and middle of the roaders. I'm one of them as well so don't feel out of place here. :) Obviously, not a lot of people need the amish barnwood furniture as I've noticed they've vastly expanded to sell many other mid-range items.

I just feel that whoever is spearheading development in this area is so busy trying to attract the hoity toity sloper demographic, that they aren't seeing the things we really need. Yes, the coffee shops and a few nice restaurants are great. But I still end up going to the slope and manhattan for my groceries. when places open up on church/cortelyou offering food that I don't have to hem and haw whether they're going to make me broke or make me hurl, i'll be more than happy to shop locally.

Posted by: slope to cortelyou at July 6, 2007 2:43 PM

Agree so much about that barnwood place...I was so disappointed that that spot didn't become something we could actually use, like a decent bar, or a small yoga studio, or really *anything* but a faux-country furniture store. People are right, a decent greengrocer would be great. I don't think we need a "gourmet food store" - I think that would be as silly as the barnwood place. Talk about only serving the more moneyed newcomers. You can already get all that stuff right here, if you just look. It seems like we have the two extremes - crap and higher-end - but not a lot in the middle. However, that is only speaking about Cortelyou. It really isn't that hard to walk over to Newkirk for other stuff. Cha's is great and cheap, if you don't mind conventionally grown produce. They're an example of a store trying to serve everyone, and they don't seem to be doing too bad a job.

If you are willing to take the Q/B a few stops, check out the area around the Kings Highway station. There are a couple of amazing Russian markets and a cool Turkish shop, all very cheap and interesting, and some excellent Turkish restaurants, both fancy and not. It's like having a cheaper, unpretentious Zabar's close at hand.

Posted by: Leela at July 6, 2007 2:43 PM

I have grown up in DP (over 20 years) and the 'hood has changed for the better. However, we still need basic staples like a bank, gourmet deli and a decent supermarket (besides the organic stores, although they are nice additions).

I still bring stuff back from Whole Foods and Pathmark (Atlantic Center).

Totally agree that the coop is overhyped. The prices are better at Whole Foods.

Posted by: Darla at July 6, 2007 2:44 PM

Was the Green grocer at Newkirk Plaza Cha's? It closed last month.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 6, 2007 2:55 PM

I heard the reason they were closing is because they can compete with Supermarkets that have parking lots, so it's not the damn yuppies, it's the damn car drivers that are at fault. I'm a yuppie, recently moved to area (but am a 25+ year resident of Brooklyn). I shop at that Associated, and don't have a car, so don't go blaming me for the closure.

While having the Co-Op in a bigger space will make it better for shopping, it still will not provide me with a place to buy an affordable breast of chicken, a pork chop, (and the occasional hunk of red meet), non pricey fresh fruit and veg and the stuff that you need for daily meals. Yeah I could go to the Duane Reed to buy toilet paper, soap, etc. But for perishables the Associated was less deradful then the Met food, and I would never trust any of the area delis for anything other then 99 cent potato chips and luke warm soda.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 6, 2007 2:56 PM

I say put all the commercial needs on CIA. It'll be a vast improvement on what's there now. Make it like Steinway, keeping the side streets local. Put in your bank, Starbucks, Pathmark, Old Navy, whatever. It would be a great asset for both the growing DP and Kensington neighborhoods.

Posted by: slope to cortelyou at July 6, 2007 2:58 PM

I hear ya 2:56. I liked and used Associated a lot too, but had the same probs with freshness there and other places. I also don't have a car. I end up buying most of my things from Target and Pathmark, as well as a quick stop at green grocers in Park Slope or other things at TJs.

And it's a pain in the arse when you're lugging all those things home via subway nonetheless. So excuse me if I don't patronize the stores far from a subway stop. I already have enough of a walk from the Cortelyou Q or Church F back home to think about lugging armloads of groceries to my apt.

While I'm on a rant, that Cortelyou Q is not able to handle the increasing number of people on the platform. I wish they could pass the B express there as well. People are getting up to stand by the door at Beverly stop to get out on Cortelyou!

Posted by: slope to cortelyou at July 6, 2007 3:06 PM

Slope - I like that idea. I mean, CIA couldn't really get any worse. Though it does already have some cool stuff on it, like Madina, the Russian baths, and that South Asian grocery that sells cricket bats.

Cha's closed? Well, there goes that one. And that just goes to show, I haven't been over there in some time, because I've been holed up working on a project for a long time. Oh well. That place was cool. Any idea what's going in there instead?

And anyone have any idea if there are any new plans for the Cornerstone's old space? I heard that the Dunkin' Donuts got the kibosh put on it already, thankfully.

Posted by: Leela at July 6, 2007 3:08 PM

I feel a few middle of the road chain stores could serve the Cortelyou Road transition well.... Although everytime I mention it I am met with lots of opposition. I have always felt something like a Children's Place (face it, everyone's kids need socks and underwear) would cross over socio-economic boundries and meet a variety of neighborhood residents' needs.

But what do we mean when we say Cortelyou Road needs more stores "that people actually use?" Yes, a middle of the road supermarket would be great. Yes, a greengrocer would be wonderful. A Yoga studio? Lots of people love the idea, but I couldn't care less. Give me a gym - a real gym - and I don't care if it's an inexpensive chain. A bank? Sure. A bar? Not a bad choice, but hard to survive when so many of the residents are parents of young children. Who wants to pay a babysitter to have a drink? Now, if the bar served food, you could bring the little tykes with you for a burger while you sample the local tap.

We have a new flower show, Dominguez, on the corner of Cortelyou and 16th. They have a decent selection of flowers and plants (both cut and rooted).

But again, what are the basics? I would say they vary considerably from person to person, particularly when there is a lot of economic diversity. I think more than anything Cortelyou Road needs change... I, for one, would like a nail salon with massage chairs and foot baths. But hardly a neccessity for most.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 6, 2007 3:10 PM

the Keyfood on Foster is putrid, as is every large chain food store in the area. have had bad experiences in each one. all smell awfull and have crap selection. have to go to Fairway like everyone else that doesn't want foul poultry or flat soda. gourmet shop would be nice too.

and the thought of buying fish anywhere near Newkirk plaza scares the heck out of me.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 6, 2007 3:15 PM

Anyone have the ear of the Flatbush Development Corp? Good to email this thread over to them anyway.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 6, 2007 3:19 PM

Children's Place, a gym, and a nail salon? Sorry, but I don't think any of those will be coming to Cortelyou. Yes, I can see why there would be opposition to those. But they'd be fine on CIA, if you ask me!

I think many people do bring their kids to Picket Fence and The Farm and eat while they also drink. By the way, anyone know why the original Picket Fence owners sold? I hope the new owners do well!

And yes, that Dominguez flower shop is great! I haven't been in there but I saw someone in another store with a huge beautiful bouquet and asked if they were expensive. They weren't.. they have extremely good prices for their asian lily stems!

I'd personally like to see a good accessories/gift shop, a sushi restaurant, and.. yes.. a green grocery.

Posted by: slope to cortelyou at July 6, 2007 3:22 PM

Actually, I think a higher end nail salon is very possible on Cortelyou Road. Sushi? Wouldn't hold your breath, but a decent Thai, Vietnamese or Chinese could fly.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 6, 2007 3:26 PM

Not sure why you'd think a sushi place wouldn't fly but a thai, vietnamese or (good) chinese would... In any case, Kensington has 2 Thai places... a 3rd opening up soon on Beverley and E. 2nd near Church Ave F. I have to order my sushi from a place all the way on Ave. R and E 16th. I can't believe it, but they do deliver.

Posted by: slope to cortelyou at July 6, 2007 3:29 PM

I think Sushi is still too esoteric to be considered "middle ground", whereas asian cuisines that aren't heavy on raw fish have a bigger fan base.

I have repeatedly begged AM Thai to open a place on Cortelyou, but apparently they prefer happening Smith Street.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 6, 2007 3:57 PM

Cha's at Newkirk Plaza appears to be being replaced by another fruit/veg store.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 6, 2007 4:04 PM

AM Thai opened a 2nd location on Smith?? Honestly, I don't know how they will survive there. It's alright, but I don't find them *that* good. There are already 100 Thai places in that area, it's insane. I don't think sushi is at all esoteric. Japanese restaurants serve more than just raw fish. But hey, I'd be happy with a good Vietnamese too. I'd love for Gai Lam (or however it's spelled) in Sunset Park to open a Gai Lam III here. Their prices are dirt cheap: drinks, huge bowl of pho and split appetizer cost me and a friend a total of $12 each with tip. Sigh. But unlikely they will...

Posted by: slope to cortelyou at July 6, 2007 4:13 PM

Since this is a Victorian Flatbush thread... anyone got the skinny on the mystery house in PPS Mary Kay's hawking? No photo or info. Open House this weekend.

http://www.marykayg.com/html/for_sale.html

Posted by: Anonymous at July 6, 2007 4:38 PM

Mary Kay needs to get over herself.

I hate that shit.

Grandma & her Spawn.

Posted by: Ugh at July 6, 2007 5:12 PM

That is so vicious and uncalled for. What sort of malicious troll are you, Ugh?

Ugh!

Posted by: Anonymous at July 6, 2007 5:19 PM

Sorry I don't bow down to the Real Estate Goddesses.

Posted by: Umm. at July 6, 2007 6:52 PM

This has nothing to do with your personal feelings. You are just incredibly rude and inappropriate.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 6, 2007 7:45 PM

Slope to Cortelyou,

Since you don't seem to be too happy in Victorian Flatbush, as you have pointed out everything that's wrong with Cortelyou, why don't you move back to Park Slope? I am not trying to be facetious, I am really just curious.

Also I agree with the previous poster that Cortelyou Road is no place for a bank. It will impact the traffic and parking on the side streets. A bank on the corner of Cortelyou and CIA or a CIA location between Cortelyou and Beverley would be great.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 6, 2007 9:52 PM

69 posts about Victorian Flatbush!! Wow, Mr. B! Something is really going on here!

Posted by: west at July 6, 2007 10:07 PM

A vietnamese restaurant in Vict Flatbush? What a wonderful idea!

Posted by: TH at July 6, 2007 11:12 PM

A vietnamese restaurant in Vict Flatbush? What a wonderful idea!

Posted by: TH at July 6, 2007 11:21 PM

Anon 9:52: I think you're overgeneralizing by saying I've pointed out everything wrong with Cortelyou. I've pointed many things that are also great with it and some things that would be a welcome change. I don't think there's anything I've said that really put down the neighborhood. And I dont' know about you, but there is no one perfect place. If we don't voice our preferences, who will?

Also, I'm sorry, but I don't have a wad of cash to buy something in the slope. I chose the next best place possible and think there's no harm in joining the voices of all the others who'd like to see some changes. I'm sure there will be positive changes here, but if all of us keep mum about what we'd like for fear that people will tell us to go back to the Slope, then it really doesn't help anyone who would like to see similar changes, does it? And it seems I'm not the only one.. people who've grown up here or been here for longer than I, feel the same way. I haven't voiced anything that someone hasn't also agreed on. The whole "move back to where you came from if you don't like it here" view is a bit simplistic and unwelcoming.

Posted by: slope to cortelyou at July 6, 2007 11:47 PM

Oh, and also Anon 9:52: I'm the one who suggested a bank and other commercial shops could go onto CIA and not Cortelyou. Please re-read my comments. You'll note that any gripes I have are nothing that is overly the top negative. I think I can complain about crowded platforms (bringing notice to a situation that I'm sure many already realize) and the fact that lugging groceries from far flung local businesses are not convenient for me. I know you said you were only curious and not saying it facetiously, but it did sound a bit snarky and I wholly defend my comments. I don't expect everyone to agree with them, but I also don't feel they warrant a "move back to the slope if you don't like it" comment either.

Posted by: slope to cortelyou at July 6, 2007 11:57 PM

Slope to Cortelyou,

I am not promoting a "if you don't like it here go back to where you came from" attitude and I was not trying to be "snarky." I did read quickly through the thread-69 comments, but your overall tone seemed to imply that Victorian Flatbush did not suit your tastes. I too have pointed out on this thread ways that the nabe can improve services and as a lifelong Brooklyn resident and 15 year resident of Vict Flatbush I too welcome change. Sorry that you felt that you had to "defend" your comments but you answered my question and I can respect your honesty. If you had the money you'd be in Park Slope and for you Victorain Flatbush was the "next best" which is what I picked up in the tone of your posts. I personally think that Brownstones are beautiful. I grew up in my parents pristine Brownstone which they later sold for an outrageous price. Of course the grass is always greener, so when I purchased my home, I preferred Victorian Flatbush over the Brownstone nabes.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 7, 2007 9:13 AM

To Midwood Park et. al.

Midwood, you wrote:

"We go to Coney Island Ave below Ave. H for dried fruits that are outstanding!"

Let me suggest the store on the corner of CIA and Avenue J, on the other side of CIA from the now-closing Rite Aid. Best prices I've found for dried fruit.

Also excellent for nuts. But the best nut prices I've found are available at Oh Nuts on Avenue J at E 15th St.

You wrote:

"We buy bags of basmati rice for a song at the Pakistani stores on CIAve."

Check Eastern on CIA and Avenue I. They also had the best milk prices in Brooklyn, though I was in the store yesterday and a gallon had risen to $3.39.

Posted by: cheapskate at July 7, 2007 10:42 AM

There is a halal butcher on the corner of Church and Dahill in Kensington. It is a hike from Cortelyou but it is a nice bike ride. The meat is fresh, resaonably priced and cut to order. In addition to the Muslims of varying backgrounds who shop there, they have a very large Mexican/Central American clientele. I think that they may deliver as well. The family who owns the establishment are Albanian and have been there for years.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 7, 2007 11:32 AM

Anon 9:13: Thanks for respecting my honesty..

As a single woman, I couldn't afford to buy a home in this neighborhood a year ago, so I could only buy a small apartment. i think many people in the slope (and other places) are also feeling the same way and looking in this area. I've already met two people in my building from Slope/Carroll Gardens.

I love the brownstones too. The problem is, there aren't a whole lot in this immediate DP vicinity... nor a lot of multi-unit housing. Not that I'm promoting that in DP, but the Slope has tons of brownstones that go on and on. It really promotes a tighter knit, denser population that want to hang out within the community because they don't need to go anywhere else. DP has its niche charm which should be carefully considered in any changes.. but it's going to move more slowly than areas that have more multi-housing (Church, McDonald). Those same great large, Vic. houses also bring in a very different demographic than those in the slope. They stay at home, putter around, drive where they need to go, etc. One block of Victorian homes has maybe the population of half a block of 1 side of brownstones. And they're not going to be young 20-something professionals in those Victorian homes.

I'm not putting down DP; I'm just noting a very logical difference in why one area developed so fast in a short time, and why DP won't until there's more affordable multi-housing. I'm not for overdevelopment of any huge multi-housing, mind you. And from what I see, no one in DP wants to do any business on the busiest border streets: Church, Flatbush, CIA because they see these areas as "fringe". Thus, this is why only a large chain business willing to make a risk, will change those streets.

I have the fortune of living between DP and Kensington and although some people look down on Kensington, it has a a lot of opportunity for change. Especially around the Church Ave F. It may not have The Farm or Picket Fence, or a high end wine store, but it has commercial space and soon to be 3 Thai restaurants. And from what I hear in the rumor mill (which as we all know, may be nothing!), Starbucks is looking at Church/McDonald area because the high foot traffic appeals to them.

As I've mentioned before, CIA would be a great area for any commercial business that the area needs, without ruining the small-town feel people love about DP. Anything's better than half of what's there now.

Posted by: slope to cortelyou at July 7, 2007 12:01 PM

I know it's not a popular idea and it's not for everyone. But I'm guessing it's mostly people who come to DP exactly for the Vic. houses, driveways to keep their cars, and large families (or large bank accounts), who like things non-park-slopish. That's ok. Kensington will be the area to do the most changing anways.

Posted by: slope to cortelyou at July 7, 2007 12:23 PM

Can't speak for anyone else, but I left PS because it was crowded, there were cars freaking *everywhere*, and I suffer from seasonal affective disorder...which means a railroad style apt in a brownstone is bad news. Now I'm in Flatbush, have more space, windows and sunlight on all sides...and no, I neither have nor intend to have kids. Just one story in the big city...

Posted by: Anonymous at July 7, 2007 12:58 PM

What turned me off of PS were those damned Stoller Moms.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 7, 2007 1:04 PM

I too moved from a Park Slope apartment which was fine before I had married and had several children in quick succession. I loved PS as a single person without kids but I prefer the yooung friendly family atmosphere of DP. I could have afforded a PS brownstone but bought a 8 bedroom in DP and an investment property with the same money. The prices here in DP have seen a steady rise since then, so I would say that the nabe did and is developing quickly in a short period of time. IMHO living in multifamily housing does not necessarily promote more of a close knit community. I love being out on my porch interacting with my neighbors and that to me promotes community.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 7, 2007 1:14 PM

We lived in Greenpoint for years, left because of the oil spill and because nearby Williamsburg was turning into a post-dorm dumping ground for young jerks, and because we're freelancers and needed more space at home. Moved to Sunset Park, hated it deeply, stumbled on Ditmas and fell in love with it. It's not only Park Slope transplants with 2.5 moppets who move here. The apartments are still a pretty good deal for a couple of self-employed artists who like living amongst a really broad diversity of languages and cultures. Where else can you get a cricket bat, a platza, a Yiddish greeting, an artisanal wine, and a 99 cent lipstick all in a few blocks?

Posted by: Leela at July 7, 2007 1:17 PM

Anon 12:58 I hear ya! :) hated those railroad apts. I was in a street level one which mean absolutely no sun in the morning (faced north) and all the good sun went to the kitchen and bathroom in the back!

Anon 1:04: there are a tons of kids in DP actually.. not like PS, but Picket Fence I used to avoid sometimes because there were so many out of hand kids running about. Same with VoxPop. I like kids.. but ones screaming and yelling and having the run of a place while trying to eat and the parents doing nothing because they think it's cute, is not enjoyable. There's enough stress in the city. But yeah, the stroller moms in PS can be equally as bad as the kids themselves.

Posted by: slope to cortelyou at July 7, 2007 1:19 PM

Funny. I left Park Slope precisely BECAUSE I'm single and it seemed like the entire nabe was overrun by families.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 7, 2007 1:22 PM

Anon 11:32: thanks for the tip. There's also an albanian halal butcher on Church between E 4 and E 3rd I think. (just near The Golden Farm market). I haven't tried it yet. But they also have the best fresh soft bread if you get there early enough, right in front of you as you walk in. It's very similar to turkish bread.

Posted by: slope to cortelyou at July 7, 2007 1:24 PM

Anon 1:14: that's great you were able to afford an 8 bedroom (house i assume) in DP. But when I walk around those houses, no one is around to be neighborly with. And I think if I came up to your porch, you'd probably sic some dogs on me (not because I'm suspicious looking, just that it seems a new yorker thing to do when people walk all over your yeard). :) Just kidding...

I don't really mean multi-unit housing itself promotes tighter community. I mean the ability for many people to move into a given area helps promote it. Especially when there are lots of rental turn-arounds and everyone wants some places within a short walking distance to shop, eat, gather, etc.

Posted by: slope to cortelyou at July 7, 2007 1:35 PM

slope to cortelyou, you wrote:

"I'm not putting down DP; I'm just noting a very logical difference in why one area developed so fast in a short time, and why DP won't until there's more affordable multi-housing."

It's been decades since PS was "affordable." In fact, the last time that could be said was back in the bad old days of banking when it was possible for a bank to "redline" a neighborhood. But due to changes in banking rules and the emergence of secondary markets for mortgages, the "redlining" problem disappeared.

Since then, PS has been on a hot streak. Meanwhile, the crime problem was more serious in DP. Ten years ago life was less pleasant. But, thanks to the arrival of more and more law-abiding citizens and a general decrease in crime, things have gotten much better.

You wrote:

"I'm not for overdevelopment of any huge multi-housing, mind you."

There are substantial apartment buildings on every street intersecting Cortelyou. The best possible news would be co-op conversions of apartment buildings.

YOu wrote:

"And from what I see, no one in DP wants to do any business on the busiest border streets: Church, Flatbush, CIA because they see these areas as "fringe"."

Depends on the part of CIA. The avenue is pretty shabby near Cortelyou. Gas stations, auto-oriented sites, building supplies. Hardly an inviting stree scene. But that's changing. Note the building at CIA and Slocum place. More to come.

One bizarre element on CIA is the prevalence of residential housing at sidwalk level. The absence of commercial space along the street is bad news for luring pedestrian traffic. However, I have high hopes for changes. Bloomberg has done much to relax zoning laws and expedite construction. Some of it is coming to CIA.

It would make great sense to prohibit the operation of a transmission repair facility on the other side of a wall from a restaurant. This commingling of businesses is appalling.

You wrote:

"Thus, this is why only a large chain business willing to make a risk, will change those streets."

Well, the presence of one "anchor" store usually leads to a fair share of local businesses popping up.

Meanwhile, as for the spur to the growth in PS, well, the fact that it is served by the B, Q, 2, 3, F, M, and R counts for something. As does Prospect Park.

As noted, the platform at the Cortelyou Q stop is way too narrow. One train, lousy platform. Not good.

Posted by: lokal yodel at July 7, 2007 1:45 PM

lokal:

in "affordable housing"..sorry, let me clarify: i was talking about 1 and 2 bedrooms vs. million dollar houses. I realize park slope has been long unaffordable in the DP sense of affordable, but honestly, the slope has far more rentals. and while they may be comparable to manhattan rentals these days, it's bringing in the young professionals who can afford it and do take care of the neighborhood.

i didn't say there were no substantial apartment buildings of of cortelyou. I have done exploring in the area, and yep, i see them. I only said i'm not for major overdevelopment of the area because I recognize most people in DP would like to keep the charm that makes DP, DP. Regardless, there still isn't the amount of multi housing in DP compared to the slope, carroll gardens, brooklyn hts, etc. Sure, the apt. buildings could change by turning co-op (which many of them have), but I highly doubt anyone is going to be razing down a street full of victorian houses to make way for future multi housing. Thus, I believe any new development in change will have to be on streets that will take the change (CIA, McDonald, Church, Flatbush).

Regarding no one wanting to do business on CIA, I thought it was implied I was talking about the DP/Kensington areas of these streets (CIA, Church). Yep, I don't love the closeness to sidewalks of the abandoned "luxury condo" projects on CIA either.

When I wrote about a "large chain business willing to make a risk to change those streets", I was talking exactly about anchor stores and other chain businesses. My point was to differentiate the "belle & maxie", "t.b. ackerson", etc. smaller locally owned businesses who would rightfully not want to take such a risk on a crappy stretch of CIA.

In other words, a major presence of a "name" store is required to get that street moving. Not to mention the money to buy out one of those auto-collision sites and clean it up. I agree.. all it takes is one big name and the rest will follow. A bank would be an excellent start, in my opinion. I have a friend who works for a major bank and I keep telling her to tell her bank to bring a branch in our neighborhood. She said she'd look into it.

I think DP and Kensington have a lot going for them with the F and Q. I live equidistant to the Q and the 2 Fs (Church/Ditmas). I love that fact! The Q is a quick trip to the city, and the F takes me to Park Slope, Dumbo, LES, Carroll Gardens, Chelsea. It's a big help when I don't feel like taking the crowded Q insanity. Something has to be done with that Q platform to bring a B express as well, if possible. I wait more for that Q than I do for the F.

Again, anyone can look at the success of Steinway street in Queens. They have a very lively street of chain stores, local chain store, restaurants, etc, but the side streets still retain their old world flavor and local businesses. It hasn't hurt them one bit and everyone has something.

Posted by: slope to cortelyou at July 7, 2007 2:16 PM

Slope to Cortelyou,

If you log off of your computer on a nice Saturday afternoon like today and walk outside you might see people on their porches. And no I won't sic my dog on you but I will start a collection to get you back to Park Slope! Just kidding. Have a good weekend.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 7, 2007 2:29 PM

Me Again, DP streets are wide enough for you to walk past my porch without coming into my yard! Come into the yard and then when sic the dogs on you.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 7, 2007 2:34 PM

for your information, I'm out enjoying a nice sat. in the park with wifi. what i choose to do on a weekend is none of your business. And same to you in regards to your own sitting at your computer.

Posted by: slope to cortelyou at July 7, 2007 3:05 PM

So persnickety slope to cortelyou. You definitely belong in PS.

Posted by: B2theFNKisWAZUP at July 7, 2007 5:48 PM

Slope to Cortelyou -

there will never be the sort of multi-family housing you pine for in DP. Go somewhere else, where such an infrastructure exists. Or else, get a high paying job, find a mate, have a mess of kids and get with the DP program. That's what it's about out here, in terms of this blog anyway. Big houses and the people who live in them.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 7, 2007 10:10 PM

Hilarious anon 10:10!
No one has yet mentioned that a great thing about DP is that Cortelyou Road and the surrounding area was deemed the most diverse nabe in the country by the US Census Bureau. There was an article in the US News and World Report a year or two ago. My children played in the Tot Lot with Orthodox Jewish, Russian, Chinese, Bengali, Pakistani, Morrocan, Yemeni, African continental, African American/Carribean, Mexican, Yuppie (I think that it is officially a nationality now) Tibetan and Bi/Tri-racial children, on any given day. At seven years old my son knew what a yarmulke was, as well as a hijab. He learned about Purim, Diswali and Ramadan all on the playgound or while shopping -yes, in Associated and the Food Co-op. The nabe is also socioeconomically diverse and he learned at an early age that not everyone has the same financial or educational options and that he should therefore take full advantage of the opportunities presented to him.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 7, 2007 11:01 PM

God, you DPers are defensive. Someone actually admits the neighborhood has faults and that it doesn't snow cotton candy in DP at Christmastime and you're all, "Love it or leave it!"

At least the Slopers are secure enough to form a posse when their nabe gets criticized here--which, you may have noticed, happens from time to time.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 8, 2007 3:18 PM

"secure enough to form a posse"! So forming a posse is better?

Posted by: Anonymous at July 8, 2007 4:16 PM

I've been living here close to 30 years and have never shopped in the neighborhood. The old run down sores didn't serve my needs and these new Park Slope yuppie places don't either. We don't need bars and coffee shops, but quality grocers and produce stores.

For those looking for wine, so to Newkirk Plaza Liquor. The owner Nick is a great guy and a mainstay of the Plaza.

Posted by: OLD TIMER at July 8, 2007 4:49 PM

You're telling me I should "Go somewhere else, where such an infrastructure exists. Or else, get a high paying job, find a mate, have a mess of kids and get with the DP program. That's what it's about out here, in terms of this blog anyway. Big houses and the people who live in them."

Hello, have you not already seen the park slopification of the area already?

Your comments about how to be a "DP resident" is laughable. If it weren't for the people coming from the slope, your house would still be worth 100k. And never once, did i "pine" for multi-housing. Just pointed out some logistics.

The people who are dissing park slopers are giving out the same PS stroller parent attitude you so abhor with your uppity tones about how "wonderfully diverse" the neighborhood is for your kids. Well here's a news flash: this is nyc! I can give that education with any kid anywhere, just living in this city, riding the subway, walking down the street. It's not just the interaction you give your kids; it's also how you talk to your kid about it and the attitude you display towards others in front of them. Merely pointing them out don't make "diversity". Nice you're so open to diversity but ironically, incredibly close-minded in the differences of neighbors.

What a hypocritical bunch. By criticising people who are from the Slope, CG, etc., you are equally trashing T.B. Ackerson, The Farm on Adderley, VoxPop, Belle and Maxie, Trailer Park, Frontier Market, the soon-to-be-expanded Flatbush Co-Op, Picket Fence, and Brooklyn Hearth Realty. Because those are all the reasons why people are coming to DP.

Posted by: slope to cortelou at July 8, 2007 8:01 PM

Oh, and how could i forget CT Muffin. All those places are proof of more of us Park Slopers to the area. Get used to it.

Oh, and I'm sure the way things are going, we'll have an Olive Garden here so we won't have to go to the Slope for it. I hate Olive Garden,but I hope they bring one to DP just to annoy all of you. From what i heard as well, there'll be a Starbucks coming before the end of the year.

Posted by: slope to cortelyou at July 8, 2007 8:20 PM

"If it weren't for the people coming from the slope, your house would still be worth 100k."

And I'd be debt free.

And if it weren't for the people coming over from Manhattan, the average PS house would be cheap. So what?

I didn't write any of the comments about kids, education, diversity, etc., so I'll pass there. However, I don't think people have anything against PS per se. They simply don't share your feeling of "slumming it" in Ditmas Park, and I must confess that I don't share it either. Ditmas and PS both have their strengths and weaknesses. Neither place is for everyone. You seem to prefer PS, but live in Ditmas. Is that correct or am I misreading you here? If it's true, then why stay in a nabe you don't like. You owe it to yourself to live in a place that makes you happy, and you owe it to someone else to make a little more room in a nabe that's growing on more and more people.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 8, 2007 8:23 PM

"I hate Olive Garden,but I hope they bring one to DP just to annoy all of you."

What can I say to this?

Welcome to the neighborhood?

Posted by: Anonymous at July 8, 2007 8:26 PM

anon 8:23: read up a bit and you'll see my honest reasons. if everyone lived where they were happy, you wouldn't have displaced low income families or artists being forced to move... nor would you have slopers who finally want to buy, be forced out of the slope because of the prices. people here seem to mistake my comments on areas that could use improvements (which many of the residents here agree upon from what I read), with my being unhappy with the area. i won't say it again... that's not the case. like you said.. every place has their strengths and weaknesses. I think one can happily live in a place but still have the freedom to voice gripes (e.g. slope is great but the stroller moms aren't). Doesn't mean they should move.

Posted by: slope to cortelyou at July 8, 2007 9:34 PM

So what if my house would only be worth $100,000. I paid a lot less than that for it when I came here.

Posted by: ANOTHER OLD RESIDENT at July 8, 2007 9:41 PM

god, you guys are so literal. if that's your best argument.. so be it. over and out.

Posted by: slope to cortelyou at July 8, 2007 9:49 PM

What's so "wonderfully diverse" about a neighborhood where all the giant expensive houses are being bought by wealthy white people?

Oh, it's so wonderful to live in a neighborhood where my children can see all the diverse kids we ship them off to private school to keep them away from!

Posted by: Anonymous at July 8, 2007 10:06 PM

Anon 8:23 you hit the nail on the head.
I am Brooklyn Proud. All of Brooklyn is my home town. Park Slope is great and so is Ditmas Park. I have a personal preference for Ditmas at this point and that is why I purchased my home in DP.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 9, 2007 12:02 AM

anonymous 10:06, you wrote:

"What's so "wonderfully diverse" about a neighborhood where all the giant expensive houses are being bought by wealthy white people?"

The buyers are not all white and they are not all wealthy. In any case, that they have more money than you is not their fault.

You wrote:

"Oh, it's so wonderful to live in a neighborhood where my children can see all the diverse kids we ship them off to private school to keep them away from!"

You must be writing about Al Sharpton, who lived at 1902 Ditmas, the big white house on the corner of Ditmas and E 19th St. At least he lived there till he ditched his wife.

Al sent his kids to Poly Prep. Of course we know James Brown paid the tuition bills for Al's kids. Shows you how desperate he was to keep his kids out of the public schools.

Posted by: Mr. Sharpton's Neighborhood at July 9, 2007 12:10 AM

slope to cortelyou, you wrote:

"if everyone lived where they were happy, you wouldn't have displaced low income families or artists being forced to move..."

Apparently you think prosperity is bad. In any case, where many apartment buildings stand today, there were once more houses. Meanwhile, many houses in the area built as second homes. But, like always, Brooklyn continued to change.

The neighborhood peaked, and then started to decline as new residents began committing many crimes, truly driving out older residents. I know a number of them who sold big houses for very low prices 20 years ago, when Park Slope was booming.

You wrote:

"...nor would you have slopers who finally want to buy, be forced out of the slope because of the prices."

Forced out? What is this? Are you advocating a federal limit on the prices of homes? A ban on the economic principle of supply & demand?

Posted by: real estate reality at July 9, 2007 8:13 AM

Real Estate REality 8:13:

Excuse me... READ what i was RESPONDING to. Don't worry Mr/Ms. Realtor... I'm all for your slopification of this area; that's why I bought here. Continue to please hype up all the PS things in DP. Isn't that what's making your Vic. houses and co-ops sell these days? C'mon, don't tell me you're not mentioning The Farm and Picket Fence.

I was responding tongue in cheek to the poster who said " However, I don't think people have anything against PS per se. They simply don't share your feeling of "slumming it" in Ditmas Park, and I must confess that I don't share it either. Ditmas and PS both have their strengths and weaknesses. Neither place is for everyone. You seem to prefer PS, but live in Ditmas. Is that correct or am I misreading you here? If it's true, then why stay in a nabe you don't like. You owe it to yourself to live in a place that makes you happy, and you owe it to someone else to make a little more room in a nabe that's growing on more and more people."

NOWHERE do I say prosperity is bad.. in fact I'm happy for all those things here in DP and I'm happy to be here. I am more than happy for all the park slopification. Isn't that what you realtors are after anyways, in DP?

I don't have to say a word here. Those who wrongly believe i think I'm "slumming it" in DP... fine. I'll keep my mouth shut. The changes are happening without my voicing things that you are all misconstruing. I'll say it for the last time: I am happy here, and only voicing the changes EVERYONE else here has asked for (read my posts above people: green grocers and basics). Don't think that the Cortelyou Assoc. isn't trying to add all those PS things... we've now got a greenmarket going. So don't blame me for wanting more of all that.

Posted by: slope to cortelyou at July 9, 2007 10:14 AM

I've been following this amazingly long thread with some interest as I've lived in the general area for about 8 years and do shop at the Associated occasionally. I think the total focus on the gentrification happening in Ditmas Park is out of proportion to the actual situation in the neighborhood. While it is true that there are some stores cropping up on Cortelyou that cater to a crowd with more disposable income than most, the fact still remains that Ditmas Park and the neighborhoods immediately around it are overwhelmingly working class neighborhoods and the real issues that deserve attention are issues of housing, health and education services, transportation, adequate and appropriate police attention etc. Look outside your relatively small social circles and you will see that the issues being brought up here are not significant to the broader community.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 9, 2007 10:41 AM

10:41 - no one is trying to pretend to be discussing significant social issues here - just what stores might be convenient for them on a street where a number of stores are turning over. I have only been in the neighborhood for a little over 3 years. The difference over the last year is astounding and, I would argue, enjoyed by people in every socio-economic group in the neighborhood. A large number of people at the outdoor market on Sunday (which, by the way, was fabulous) were the working class folks and their children and they seemed to be enjoying it as much as the yuppies. There are still hundreds of stores on Flatbush, Coney Island Avenue, etc... that cater to people with less money and from various different nationalities with specialty food, etc... There is nothing wrong with having one street with some higher end stores and, believe it or not, even working class people enjoy having a great wine store with a large selection of lower priced wines in their neighborhood or a restaurant to go to on a special occasion. It is not just the yuppies going to TB Ackerman - the store has a very diverse client base and is doing a great job keeping a selection of wines for the various tastes of the neighborhood.

Posted by: Anonymous at July 9, 2007 11:20 AM

I think this whole business of calling some people yuppies, and assuming that working class people don't need or want fresh vegetables or a decent cheap bottle of wine bought in a place that doesn't have plexiglass around the cash register, or a neighborhood that feels liveable, is very silly and dividing. This kind of conversation stands in for more important and more difficult conversations, and highlights how uncomfortable issues of class make us all. But hurling meaningless words like "yuppie" around sheds more heat than light. I'm with Anon 11:20 here. I've been here for 2 years, and have seen the new stuff moving into the neighborhood, and I also see that all members of the neighborhood seem to be enjoying the new businesses. Just go to the Farm any evening, and you'll see a pretty good cross-section of area residents.

I also think it's sad when things like the farmer's market are referred to as "Park Slope things". The whole city benefits from the Greenmarket, and so do local farmers in our state and the surrounding area. It is a form of good citizenship to support local businesses and agriculture. And the whole notion that nice places to hang out, decent groceries, and good coffee are somehow the province of the wealthy is a particularly American distortion that we would all do well to shed.

Issues of schools, affordable housing, and health care are something else entirely, and I reserve that discussion for people who actually know what they're talking about (i.e. not me).

Posted by: Leela at July 9, 2007 12:14 PM

I like nice things and have no issues with bettering the neighborhood.
I DO NOT like uber-feminine Beta Males walking around the hood looking all scared. Get the fuck out. Also, ladies, plz shave. Who has seen the mustached lady out and about?

Posted by: Hmm. at July 9, 2007 1:04 PM

OK, this is something to get annoyed/worried about, or at least take notice of:

http://ditmaspark.blogspot.com/2007/07/cooperating.html

At least the Co-op is local.

Posted by: Leela at July 9, 2007 5:49 PM

The CO-OP's problem is easy-Rude Staff/Laughable high prices/loooooong lines as well. I hope the new store on Stratford puts the CO-OP out of business

Posted by: Anonymous at July 12, 2007 1:31 PM

Cortelyou Road is and was an excellent place for a bank! I moved into the area in 1981 when the unsightly Laundomat on Coretlyou Road and E16th St. was a full service Chase Bank. There were no traffic jams! Just the ability to walk around the corner to a bank.

Posted by: guest at November 8, 2007 1:30 PM

« Friday Links Development Watch: Butt-Ugly on Smith »

July 6, 2007

Streetlevel: Organic Boom on Cortelyou

Trackback Pings

Comments

Post a comment

Latest Restaurant Additions